E61 Espresso Flow Control Profile - Tame Bitterness

[@philgoogle1535]

I've only just discovered this series of FCD videos. I'm binge-watching all of them. Unfortunately, I've got to wait until the morning to try some of your ideas😩 Thanks Marc👍

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Phil, You are welcome! Please let me know how it goes. I'll take any detail you can offer like profile used, coffee, etc. If you respond in an original comment I'm much more likely to see it and respond. My profile suggestions are just starting points so I love to hear results of others experience. Marc

[@philgoogle1535]

@@Wholelattelovepage so far, your 1/4 turn 5-8 second pre-infusion on my Synchronika is making the biggest difference to a lightish SO I have. Thanks for this Marc.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Phil Google Nice. Thanks for the report!

[@dragonrising11]

You produce the BEST, most informative videos!!! Thank you!!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi d, Thanks for the kind comment! Marc

[@eds.2237]

You guys have done a great job of selling this! now, if I could only *buy* it... "i'm dyin' ova heah" btw, just bought, received and put in service the IMS screen + barista pro baskets + leveler - total game changers! Really, I should stop while I'm ahead. :)

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Ed Stockwell Hi, thanks for sharing your opinions on the upgrades. They really are making it better! And thanks for your patronage. If you ever need advice/assistance our coffee experts are here to help! Marc

[@squibcakes74]

Hi Marc, The last few videos have improved significantly with the nice camera angles and camera switching! Well done! On another note, the video title is "Tame the Bitterness", and I was expecting an in depth down and dirty tutorial about this. What we got was a product review of your favorite accessories, (which is a little repetitive now tbh) and a segue to a flow control. Why use a very forgiving coffee to start with? Try something off the chart with more of challenge so we can understand how you dial the FCP in and really learn about it. So in summary, the take away from this video is this: Improve a bitter coffee by making it brighter by slowing the shot? Cheers Squib.

[@toddpower4674]

I look forward to these flow control videos I play with this on a synchronika and i pick up tips from marc Nice to order fresh roasted coffee but i always have some lavazza to tie me over between orders, and the flow control helps to improve both the fresh and older stuff.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Todd, Thanks for the comment! Thanks for sharing your experience - yes, it does help in the situations you describe. Next week manual lever profile and coffee shots! Marc

[@brodiegardias949]

Love these videos. Thank you Marc. Struggling to get espresso shots that I’m happy with when not served under milk and understanding these profiles is certainly going to help. Do you have plans to do a similar series looking at brew temperature variation (for a PID dual boiler machine) on different coffees? Little info online for brew temp changes and their effect in the cup.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Brodie, You are welcome for the videos and thank you for the kind comment! For brew temp, I've done some videos in the past on that but here's the general guidline... All coffee/espresso brewing between 195 - 205F 91- 96C. Start in middle of that range for medium roast, use a few degrees higher for lighter roast and a few degrees cooler for darker roasts. Simple! Marc

[@brodiegardias949]

Great, thank you! Will have a better dig through the channel. Been going off 93C so far while I learn the new machine.

[@a.s.5280]

just loving your videos so much Marc, thx for your effort with your wife behind the camera! the Baratza is quite similar to the Etzmax grinder (from Etzinger).

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Bob, Thanks a bunch for the comment. I'll share with Tracy!

[@alexlazaridisf.7276]

Thanks again! So informative, so helpful!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

You are so welcome! And thanks for your comment! Marc

[@maziarhinman319]

I keep seeing you using a 20g basket in a double spout portafilter but heard anything over 18g basket requires bottomless. i hust recently got the pro 700 from you guys and want the 20g basket but read it wont fit in the doublespout?

[@SWelle1]

Mark. I have ECM Mechanikka MAX - what is the best brew temperature (t1), and steam temperature (t2)? I had a CoffeeCast event and Missy told me the brew temp should be 92-94. Tech support people say it should be 124… BTW, when I turn on the machine - I get 124 - is it brew temp?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi DA, I overheard your CoffeeCast with Missy - that set is right outside my door! I heard my name a few times and almost came to to say hello! Best brew temp depends on the coffee you are brewing. Coffee brewing range is 195-205F (91-96C) For dark roast 197F/92C, medium roast 200F/93C, light roasts 203F/95C. Those temps are general suggestions and you can modify based on flavor. Not sure why tech would have told you brew temp of 124. Not sure if you're working in Fahrenheit or Celsius, but 124 is not a good brew temp in F or C! Perhaps there's was some confusion with t1 and t2 or F or C when you spoke to Tech Support. 124C could be a good t2 steam temp. Best steaming temperature depends on how much power you want when steaming. Higher steam temp means less time until milk is heated and a more powerful roll in the pitcher. If you've got good frothing skills them turn t2 up. If you're newer to milk frothing turn t2 down and you'll have more time to froth the milk. Marc

[@SWelle1]

@@Wholelattelovepage I wish you did come in and say hello. Would be cool. ✌🏻

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@SWelle1 I try not to interrupt. Next time!

[@chadgregory9037]

i totally had marshmallow crema this morning =]

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Chad, Awesome! Marc

[@David_Keith]

Great video, keep up the good work!

[@eytancalif]

Hey Marc :) maybe i've missed it, what temperature do you brew this type of coffe in your profile shot?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi David, Thanks for the comment - will do! Marc

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi e, No problem! Brew temp was 199F/93C. Marc

[@absolutskyy99]

Hi, Helpful video. However, I am still getting a sour/burnt taste. I was doing fine until a few days ago and now that I use a new distributer+tamper with an open portafilter, I can't seem to get it right. (not sure if this is affecting it) I use a Breville Barista Express. -The extraction time is 30s. (coffee starts to pour around 7s) -The volume for a double shot is about 65-70 ml at times. (18 gms coffee) -The color starts to blond a bit early I feel. -The pressure gauge is within the grey zone but around the 1 o'clock position. - I pre-hear the shower, glass & basket. - Puck looks fine. Not dry and not wet/watery. Would really appreciate your inputs on resolving this. Thank you.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi PN, Thanks for the question and sharing your details. Sour flavor generally indicates and under-extraction. Burnt flavor may be the roast you are tasting if using a darker roast coffee. Burnt could also be a brew temp that's too high. I might try purging a bit of water from the brew head prior to brewing. This can help cool the brew temp. Volume of 65-70ml sounds about right if using a coffee which produces a lot of crema. If it's not a big crema producer then that volume is on the high side. Decreasing grind size would help with sour (under-extracted) flavor and could extend time to blonding.Hope that helps! Marc

[@mike3366]

Hi Mark, i have an ECM Synchronika and I drink primarily milky coffees and rarely plain espressos. Would I gain anything taste wise in my milky coffees installing a flow profile valve on my machine ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Mike, Depends on what type of coffees you are using. Milk will definitely mask/dilute espresso flavors. On the other hand if you're using fresh from roast specialty coffees there's a large benefit in reducing brightness with long low flow pre-infusions. Reducing brightness allows more of the fruit to come through. That's less noticeable in milk drinks and very noticeable in straight espresso. Marc

[@theroadjourney5195]

Can we get the charts of all videos for print somewhere. I want to hang them on my wall above the machine to try to replicate them. Y-axis with g/s and X-axis with time would be great

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey tr, Ask and you shall receive! Here's a link to article with graphs of 5 flow profiles and graphs of flow rates at various valve positions for vibration and rotarry pump machines: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Hope that helps! Marc

[@theroadjourney5195]

@@Wholelattelovepage thanks !!!

[@gigi9467]

Just got a chance to see this stream which is awesome, couple of questions, do u push down on the jackleverler when spinning it? Also once u open the bag of maromeas orppheas coffee how long do you have until u notice a degradation in taste?? Two weeks maybe? Thanx mark your the best!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Jesus H Medrano Great to hear from you. I let the Jack do the work. Just spin into the coffee with no added pressure. When I open a bag and don’t use it all I tightly roll the bag and use a clip to hold closed. Stored like that IMO it’s good far longer than 2 weeks. Marc

[@gigi9467]

Whole Latte Love now when u guys gonna get more levelers in stock lol am pretty traditional and finally Convinced I self with the help of your videos to give one a try

[@joelurena5176]

Hey Mark! When are you guys restocking on the Zette 270?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Joel, Just checked with our product specialist. Looking like "Junish" possibly. Wish I could be more specific but lots up in the air with pandemic. Sorry. Marc

[@daviding78]

omg marc u really love that coffee Orphea hahahahaha

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi David, Lol - yes I do! Marc

[@kenroman777]

Actually I am one of those that do not like that coffee taste although it looks great I seem to be one of those that will never purchase again as the coffee is bitter and sour at 2:1 using bambino and sette.. Many 1 star reviews which I seem to agree with. Will use local coffee roaster now.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Ken, Sorry to hear you are getting both bitter and sour at the same time. That's a very unbalanced cup as sour flavors indicate under-extraction while bitter flavor indicates over-extraction. That can be caused by things like grind is too fine (bitter) while there's channeling through the coffee (sour). The Bambino is a pressurized basket brewer which compromises a bit. With pressurized grind size is a little forgiving as it's the basket which creates the pressure and not the grind size of the coffee. Even with that I often find people using pressurized baskets are using coffee that's ground too coarse which causes under-extraction. I've had people drying to use drip grind size for espresso and that will not work. You might try grinding finer. You should be in the neighborhood of table salt or slightly finer grind size. Coffee beans used can also play a role. Traditional Italian blends tend to be more bitter than others. Maybe try playing with the grind size a bit before throwing in the towel. Marc

[@kenroman777]

@@Wholelattelovepage TY Mark but I am using a bottomless portafilter non pressurized as well and cannot tell a difference yet,, still trying even this morning . Many saying bambino does not get hot enough for medium/light roasts..waiting on call from breville.. Marc just got off the phone with Breville and they said bambino works with light/medium beans as well.. suggested I use 18 g in pressurized and I did and it ran too fast.. changed to 19 and still .. Switched to bottomless and used 19.5 gm and it stopped before 39 gms .Crenma was 1" but it was still sour tasting.. this is same with the arabica moromas.. I am considering exchanging machine while I still have time as I watched the bottom of portafilter /after sette and wdt and it looked beautiful..taste was sour again.. ???

[@jeffreysommers2683]

I have a Profitec 700 purchased from WLL about three years ago. Can it be upgraded with Flow Control

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for the question. Yes it can unfortunately due to virus related manufacturing slow downs in Italy stand alone uprgrade kits are not currently available. :( Marc

[@irawanchandra4455]

Hi Marc, love the video... Just curious to know what is the grind size setting you are using with the Baratza for the shots today?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi IC, Thanks for the comment and question. I believe it was ~5B. But here's the thing my grind setting has no bearing on yours. A couple reasons... First even same make/model with same coffee would likely grind at different size. One must dial in their own grind size. So many variables involved like: filter basket type, machine, coffee, brew temp...I could go on. A huge difference? My Baratza 270 Wi is well broken in. A couple of weeks ago I installed 2 shims under the burr. This moves grind size a number of macro steps higher for a similar grind size so comparison is useless. Do watch my video on dialing in grind size. It's easy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIC8aHdmZ9Nnedk Hope that helps! Marc

[@dragonrising11]

Marc: In your opinion, how can I reproduce that distinctive Italian espresso bar smoothness/sweet and nutty freshness, that has eluded me here in the USA? I'm thinking of purchasing an ECM PID with flow control from WLL, and testing it with the Maromas Orpheus, or Lavazza super crema coffee. What are the biggest factors involved? Also, what about the quality of the water used as a factor? (**The last heavenly coffee drink I had was a cappuccino at a Cafe Kimbo coffee bar, at the Rome airport back in September...this is what I crave, and seek to reproduce at home...)

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi d, Thanks for the questions. A PID ECM machine will give you the right tool. And a classic Italian style bean blend like Super Crema, Orphea (a little lighter in roast) or heck, just get the Kimbo: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/whole-bean-espresso-coffee?_=pf&pf_v_brand=Kimbo%20Espresso%20Italiano Biggest factor involved after the coffee is the grind. Perhaps you are familiar with dialing in grind size. If not here's my video on that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIC8aHdmZ9Nnedk Next factor is consistency. Only change one variable at a time. Water quality is important. You want some minerals in the water for flavor but not so much you cause scale to form in your machine. We have a number of options to get you there depending on the type of machine you are using. I recommend giving our espresso experts a call at 585-924-7170. They can appraise your needs/desires and recommend the gear to get you there. Marc

[@dragonrising11]

Whole Latte Love Thank you!!!

[@davidcrooke9358]

Great video, Marc! I noticed you weren’t doing a cooling flush using the Pro 500. Does this machine not need one due to the PID? Thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi David, Thanks for the comment. That's right. I've found in most cases the new crop of HX boiler PID machines from Profitec, Rocket and ECM do not require a cooling flush. If they've been sitting idle for awhile, especially without a PF in the group, they may need a very short flush. But other than that the are remarkable when compared to the pressurestat controlled machines of the past. Marc

[@richardjakeisa4326]

So when will Profitec provide us with a mod to upgrade PStat machines to pid??

[@amireads]

Can I do this on a Rancilio Silvia without a PID?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Amir, Do you mean flow control on a Silvia? If so, then no. Marc

[@Neonb1bLes]

Grandson = Whole Latte Fun 😛

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Kyle, Sure does! Thanks for the comment! Marc

[@Grandtrunk]

Too much thinking involved. Was going to buy one but now am discouraged. Mskes me want to go back to bed and dream of making perfect espresso

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi rb, I disagree. Sure it takes a bit of effort. But as mentioned once you know the basic principles they are easily applied to the coffee you are using. Maybe you are more of a pushbutton bean to cup super-automatic guy? Marc

[@Grandtrunk]

@@Wholelattelovepage yep. Just bought Gaggia Naviglia

[@grabelnikov]

Hey Marc, would Jack be able to compress 18g of coffee in baristapro 20g basket?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi AG, It will be close. I was using 19g in the 20g basket with depth on the Jack set to max. Depends a bit on the coffee. Darker roasts tend to be less dense so more volume for a given weight. Marc

[@grabelnikov]

​@@Wholelattelovepage Same italian espresso blends like lavazza super crema or orphea. Would you recommend to go with 18g basket? or 20g will be fine?