Early Analysis: King Air Crash October 18, 2022

[@AirSafetyInstitute]

UPDATE: The National Transportation Safety Board has released its preliminary report (ERA23FA024) regarding the investigation into the King Air Crash. interactive.10tv.com/pdfs/OHReport.pdf

[@TheFlightLevel]

Greetings! The flight events prior to the accident recreated with Flight Simulator. Condolences to all involved. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iavLY2h_g8-DY5Y

[@IslandSimPilot]

What blows my mind is going from acknowledging a landing clearance to being dead in 10-15 seconds. Condolences to friends and family and rest in peace, fellow aviators.

[@plasmaburndeath]

Just yeah, any part of life that kinda thing sends chills down your spine. One minor thing at least they didn't suffer with this crash.

[@WarblesOnALot]

G'day, Ice.., It Gotted 'Em...; Apparentarily, So it Did. Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. Ciao !

[@jonslg240]

@@WarblesOnALot please delete your keyboard.

[@alouettedemer5366]

@@plasmaburndeath Insensitive as hell

[@IslandSimPilot]

@@plasmaburndeath define “suffer” the last few seconds of their lives were terrifying I’m sure.

[@anthonygrizzly6924]

Just saw this on the Blancolirio channel as well. Excited that both of my favorite aviation channels are prompt and respectful in their reports. Thank you AOPA and RIP; fly high, Captain.

[@jj4ever93]

As a part 141 student I flew a stage check with Tim.... A bit of an old school style pilot but a great pilot none the less. Sad to hear about this.... R.I.P Tim, and R.I.P the other pilot who I did not have the pleasure of knowing. Thoughts and prayers for the families.

[@lesliehaynes2414]

I was a part 61 student with Eric. He was my first instructor. Very good pilot and also a very good instructor too. Personally, the kind of person that was friendly to everyone. It is truly sad the loss of two good people and CFIs.

[@dreamcreator2552]

All great pilots will become “old school” in the eyes of new young pilots if they are skilled and lucky enough to have a long career. The risks of aviation are always present for the “new school” and old school pilots alike…

[@stephenshoihet2590]

You have one of the best aviation channels, I really appreciate you approach to these incidents; you look at the facts, you look at some potential factors and you don't draw any conclusions. Your lessons learned are always great too. Aviation can be very unforgiving to mistakes/failures, especially small planes at low altitudes. "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself" - Eleanor Roosevelt

[@chrisconley8105]

Sad story. I appreciate your calm, respectful, informative demeanor.

[@CuratedPile]

A tail stall from icing is 1) far more likely when you extend the flaps, 2) opposite recovery from wing stall - often unrecoverable, and 3) much more likely to lead to a straight in nose down stall than any other type of stall. It's only a guess but that's what this looks like to me.

[@michaelh8890]

I can't recall if it was mentioned, but a configuration change in the form of flaps at the marker in icing conditions can precipitate a stall of the horizontal stab & result in an unrecoverable LOC

[@chester8420]

I got my money on tail stall too. Maybe they got just a little too slow also and that exasperated the issue.

[@bittnerbs]

I agree. Tailplane stall due to icing. I bet they grabbed an extra notch of flaps at the FAF and disrupted the airflow over the horizontal stab. Sad deal.

[@evowoods5487]

I need to look a tail stall up. I’ve never heard of that somehow. Thank you😎

[@CuratedPile]

If anyone is interested, here is an excellent video on tailplane icing from a NASA research study. It's a bit dated, but very informative. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZrJfJermJabe5o

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

The impact looked brutal I can't image the horror in that cockpit.

[@Cobalt135]

It was seconds at that altitude. They were in IMC.... in the overcast, by the time they realized there was a serious problem it was over.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

@@Cobalt135 The plane before them broke out at 2100 I think 1800 was where they needed to be and they where close to that. So your right seconds on video it looks longer.

[@braininavatnow9197]

Most of the time there is no "horror"....and everybody dies sooner or later....kinda stupid to die feeling horror when you can feel joy and love. Death happens in life, not to life.

[@tonyvelasquez6776]

@@braininavatnow9197 can you tell me how i can do this manipulation to my dirty little stinkhole?

[@palmdc8]

There was no horror

[@DoubleMonoLR]

I think what looks like smoke/exhaust could be artifacts of the compression, as a result of the moving object.

[@calvinnickel9995]

This is my thought as well. Security cameras save memory because of compression. Unless something changes in the frame… it just uses data from the previous frame. The “exhaust” is the camera are places in the sky where the difference in what is detected wasn’t enough to warrant a change.

[@SkandiaAUS]

Yes but your facts and observations aren't welcome in the nutty internet detective forums.

[@carlwilliams6977]

There's a news clip that uses the security footage, and the "expert" commercial pilot draws the conclusion that in fact, the plane Was on fire! Pretty crude video to draw ANY conclusions, other than that the King Air was headed straight down, and no one would survive! Edit: I forgot to add that the "expert" stated that because the aircraft was on fire, that could have had something to do with the crash! Stating facts not in evidence, while stating the obvious all in the same sentence! Why didn't they interview me? I've never flown a plane in my life, and would have done a better job! 🤣

[@maxon1672]

My thoughts exactly…

[@cdl0]

Yes, I agree with MrMonotone and Calvin Nickel, and in a separate comment by ryancrazy1 that the trail behind the falling aircraft in the video from the surveillance camera is most likely an artifact from the video compression algorithm.

[@EinsteinEP]

Again, kudos for stating the facts and not sensationalizing an event that is easy to sensationalize.

[@57Jimmy]

That version will usually be well covered by typical media platforms🙄

[@dillon8212]

Was really hoping y'all would come in on this one. Listening to the ATC audio was pretty chilling as there wasn't much warning.

[@tmp1111]

Thank you. Your videos are so well articulated, particularly to someone who is not an aviator

[@NEO-TROPOLIS]

My mother is best friends with the widow of one of the pilots, and knew him well. He had three adult children and was a cherished retired firefighter. Godspeed Tim Giffords and Eric Seevers, we are grieving for them both and their families.

[@NEO-TROPOLIS]

@@57Jimmy You’re right, edited.

[@57Jimmy]

@@NEO-TROPOLIS awesome! My comment will be removed too☺️

[@rbk7876]

My heartfelt prayers to entire family and friends and colleagues, Blessed Are Those Who Mourn, For They Shall Be Comforted. 🙏🕊

[@braininavatnow9197]

Bet she's in for a big daddy dead payday.💥🔥☠️$$$$

[@midwestflying3461]

Thanks for sharing. I just heard from another pilot with low time, like myself, going into Icing conditions in a Cessna 172. He mentioned the same thing keep your speed up and no flaps. After landing, he clearly saw a smooth line of ice on his leading edge. He said it was one of the most troubling flights he's ever been on. This constant reminder helps us all become better pilots and keeps us in the sky and on the ground safely.

[@ryancrazy1]

3:50 in my opinion those "exhaust plumes" are just compression artifacts from the video. They are directly inline with the path the lights took through the frame. Once the pixels were close enough to the background color they just stayed the same. You can see its not changing/swirling and you can see other compression artifacts that also don't move in the video

[@cdl0]

MrMonotone and Calvin Nickel also made the same observation, and I agree.

[@danbuffington75]

Great explanation. Thank you.

[@brianwilkins5673]

The King Air 90 was the first turbine aircraft I flew as a professional. When hired for the job not knowing much about quirks of the airplane I did a lot of research into how many and what types of accidents the aircraft was known for. Even 20 years ago the King Air series had an astoundingly good safety record with only a few losses. It was known as the old man’s airplane because it was very easy to fly and forgiving. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say they have stalled it. I read through some of the comments and wanted to come back and relay some of my experience with this airplane in icing conditions. You had no way to see if your tail plane was clear in icing and no indication in the cockpit the system was working for the tail. I had flown through icing before and had no issues, and on another occasion having flown through icing I didn’t find out until landing that the tail system wasn’t working. This scared the hell out of me initially, but gave me some comfort that the airplane could be in icing and had no negative impacts from that encounter. I’m not saying the 90 was impervious to icing, it would have to depend on what type and the rate of accumulation. The investigation should show through weather reports and more importantly PIREPS as if there was icing along their route of flight and how significant it was. Flying in an icing level doesn’t indicate that there is icing present, only that the factors are present for icing.

[@brown958]

These are always really good and very well explained.

[@gwiyomikim5988]

Very thorough early analysis. Thank you.

[@StrmJim]

I’m a fellow aviator who is starting flight school soon to fly king air. Mistakes happens and this is how we learn. Rest in peace fellow aviators what I’m learning right now will be helpful.

[@melxdan]

Richard narrating this video died in a crash as well recently. It can still happen to the best and safest pilots out there.

[@Grammy52]

This is the best video I’ve seen on this today. It’s easy for people to jump to a conclusion.

[@sammarmon3965]

I'm sure going to miss your concise analysis Mr. McSpadden.

[@adotintheshark4848]

Stall speed is 77 knots, but if it was going 90 knots and had ice, it could have stalled early.

[@davidmiller1114]

It’s 77 with flaps and gear down. Icing negates that, and if memory serves me requires a no flap approach, no slower than 110 Kts, (+10% for ice) touchdown 100 Kts.

[@adotintheshark4848]

@@davidmiller1114 so he could have entered stall conditions and not even known it, and at that altitude it's a death sentence.

[@MWTGoldenGun]

I was just coming back to check on the status of this crash. I flew right seat on this plane out to Nantucket on 10-15-2020 while our CJ was down for maintenance. I didn't know either of the two pilots that were flying it, but I did know of the person who owned the aircraft. He was a doctor and a pilot, not sure if he had a commercial certificate, but it seemed like he was running a suspicious operation to me. He would often try to contract out my copilot that I regularly flew the CJ with, and the aircraft wasn't on a part 135 certificate yet to my knowledge and so the NTSB report confirms. I have to wonder, why were two pilots flying it to Parkersburg from Columbus where it was based? I'm sure they were contracted out as well, and I wonder what sort of maintenance issues the plane still had when they were flying it. There was a bleed air overheat issue with one of the engines when I flew on it and we had to avoid icing conditions since we couldn't use the de-icing systems. It was probably fixed since I flew on it but the whole thing makes me wonder. Sounds like the accident was caused by icing after reading the report.

[@Ryanboy2020]

90 knots is way too slow for a King Air on final and with possible icing present, its even more egregious. We are having way too many accidents in GA and a lot of them are because of flying below DMMS in the pattern. My condolences to the families of these two pilots.

[@erich930]

Yikes! I just went to PKB on a solo x-c for my IFR training... It was night so I couldn't see much, but I landed on 21.

[@shady7230]

That doesn’t make any sense. How can you do an IFR trip solo without an instrument rating in the first place ?

[@erich930]

@@shady7230 Sorry for the confusion. It was a VFR solo cross country for time building towards my IFR rating. The FAA requires at least 50 hours of cross country time as PIC for pilots seeking an instrument rating!

[@jeffr6280]

It's hard to imagine with the forecast and their flight plan that they were not utilizing the deicing equipment during this flight. I'm guessing it'll be hard to find out when the last time was they cycled the boots on the wing and the tail, and given the intensity of the fire, it'll be hard to check the condition of the boots themselves. Yet another reminder of how thin the margins are in icing conditions even in the one of the safest aircraft every built. Condolences to the families of the crew.

[@Quiquetenax]

Remeber that the speed on FlightAware is ground speed, not IAS.

[@Eric-gj6uf]

Good point. I had not thought of that.

[@diyoregonnowtexas9202]

I'll drive thanks. Have a nice flight and good luck.

[@flitetym]

The overshoot of the final course - and an apparent ~100° turn to final to re-capture the course - draws my attention. Yeah, air traffic design and terps procedures *may* have been factors contributing to crew task saturation and workload. Accomplishing this maneuver *may* have required a greater than standard rate of turn (i.e., “steep turn”). If this is to be considered, then it also suggests the likelihood the crew was departing from (i.e., “mis-managing”) at least one of the essential components of disciplined and stabilized flight - power, attitude, configuration, altitude and airspeed - *well before* the point of impact. Factor-in the possibility of ice during a critical phase of flight and we’re now operating at the edge of disaster. I have zero King Air time, but I do have about 1,200 hours of B-99 time acquired “… in the last century.”

[@DanFrederiksen]

Strange seeing this after his accident

[@hotsoup1001]

The hardest part to understand for me, is how quick this happened. They didn't seem to be having any issues during the radio communications. Many people are thinking icing is the likely cause, but would it have happened so quickly or quietly that they would seem to go from normal to disaster in seconds with no warning? At least no warnings that would lead them to declaring an emergency?

[@CaptainRon1913]

It most certainly could with a tail stall due to icing. Just setting the flaps from 10 to 30º could induce a nose down attitude in a fraction of a second. With icing on the tail, they wouldn't have been going from "normal" to disaster, they would have gone from barely hanging on to disaster. If the auto pilot was set, it could have been masking the condition

[@johnball5115]

I was in the shower at the Fairfield Inn across the street when this happened... pulled out my Ipad and looked at Foreflight as I have never been to this airport before and figured he was coming in on final. It was definitely colder out. Praying for the families involved.

[@braininavatnow9197]

Bullshit....your not praying for anybody except maybe yourself...and who exactly do you pray to? Thor, jehova, Micky mouse, the great sky god???

[@travelwithtony5767]

It’s so strange seeing Mike giving his expert opinion and guidance to try and avoid aircraft accidents, only to die tragically just a few months later after the small private plan he was piloting crashed shortly after takeoff.

[@ian9574]

It will definitely be informative to see what the investigation concludes what the main cause was... amazing how quickly the aircraft lost speed and altitude. RIP, and my heartfelt sympathy to the families and friends of the pilots. 😔

[@braininavatnow9197]

You don't even know them....what about the other 170,000 people that died that day?

[@davidd6635]

Thanks for AOPA and your analysis of what we know. No one has mentioned the possibility of a sudden medical emergency, at the Worst possible moment, in a handful of seconds, leading to the unrecoverable stage. RIP and condolences to family and friends.

[@bryce7285]

You think both pilots had a medical emergency? That is highly unlikely. More plausible icing causing a stall. Assuming it had ice boots and they were IFR in the clouds previously they may not have thought they needed as they descended. Or forgot and then stall unrecoverable.

[@miragesmack007]

Two pilots though.

[@braininavatnow9197]

They may have been hit by a meteorite.

[@jpdunamislodge]

You can’t fly any BE90 model in prolonged icing conditions. Like a Cessna Caravan they are pigs in ice. Why they stayed in it at 11,000 feet the entire flight is a mystery to me. The theory on the tail being iced up makes perfect sense at this point. Hopefully there’s enough of the tail left to have a look at it to determine if tail deicing was working. I always ran my deicing equipment all year long just to exercise it and to check and make sure that it was all still working. It’s especially important to verify that everything is operable before the winter season gets going. All things considered it sounds like the tail quit flying after they threw the gear out and added landing flaps. Would also explain the nose pointed straight down before it hit the ground. Condolences to everyone associated. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@tomknopp3460]

The tail was about the only thing left which led me to believe it was tail ice as well. He was a good friend of mine and my flight instructor. It was a tough scene to witness.

[@cieloaltoa3405]

So bad that this pilot crash and thank you for your work and videos,I love this channel 😁👍

[@BigLittlePilot]

The airspeed fluctuations during descent are intregueing. A stall from icing seems likely, but I wonder if a static blockage could have caused them to fly too slow during the final approach, making the situation worse. Wonder what type(s) of instruments they had. This type of crash destroys a lot of evidence though. I hope the NTSB can figure this one out. Another sad loss. Be safe out there!

[@jasonfagan8053]

Unbelievable circumstances... RIP to you RM... 🙏

[@mateocaicedo282]

Can we please get an early analysis of the Cirrus crash at KMYF and the collision at Dallas airshow 🤷🏽‍♂️🙏🏾

[@cadestephen952]

I was in the air in a caravan on the same night and landed at Wayne country (100nm north of Parkersburg airport) about 20 minutes before the crash. Icing conditions were moderate from 6,000 down to around 2,500 agl. After the icing conditions it was mostly vfr the rest of the way down until landing but it was cold and some of the ice was residual and hadn’t came off of the aircraft until just below 1,000ft.

[@tsmith3286]

To come straight down like that is just odd. Does anyone know how long it was from the last contact to the crash? Also that exhaust looks like smoke coming from the right engine.

[@bw162]

PT-6 engines have ice veins that must be extended in temps freezing to +5C. Many pilots don’t like to use them because of the resulting power reduction if there is no surface ice. That can resulted in severe compressor blade damage in a matter of a couple minutes. I am sure the investigators will be looking for bent compressor blades.

[@petesilvestri]

My condolences

[@R.Floman63]

I Just curious, I can only see one full wing and tip light in the images of the plane in the dive, I wonder if it had a spar strap or wing bolt failure on final approach and the wing folded. I had a B100 years ago and knew to always inspect for any deformities in the bolt covers which was indicative of bolt and spar issues regardless of the inspection and replacement time of the wing bolts.

[@maxon1672]

As I mentioned on Juan’s channel, the “exhaust plumes” are simply an artifact of video compression. Compressed video is efficient because most compression algorithms only refresh pixels that have changed significantly over a given period of time. When a new object moves across an otherwise stationary background it can leave a trail of pixels in its wake as the rest of the image buffers. Thanks for the great analysis, as always!

[@Bren39]

Good theory.. But then why aren't these artifacts across all the pixels the plane was falling thru.. And just two discrete plumes/artifacts where the plane's plumes would be.

[@MatthijsvanDuin]

@@Bren39 Ehh, there most definitely _are_ artifacts across all the pixels the plane was falling through.

[@Milkmans_Son]

@@Bren39 The plane was spinning/rolling on the way down so the trailing artifacts are more of a corkscrew shape than a straight line.

[@nightwaves3203]

Yep keep your speed up and no flaps and be ready. Would be nice to fly at cruise lower in warmer air. Study I watched years ago fixed on keeping the speed up and no flaps. Both can unsettle a plane with ice. Sad accident. You can't spot the ice on the tail.

[@CruceEntertainment]

I remember learning that when getting my private over 20 years ago. I don’t fly much anymore, but I still remember that!

[@nightwaves3203]

@@CruceEntertainment Part of the study mentioned how some are lucky an ice that could of caused a problem fell off before configuring for landing. I was thinking it would of been nice if those guys could of cruised a while longer in warmer air.

[@pdc023]

I'm not a pilot, but is it possible that the pitot tube iced up (failure to activate pitot tube heater) and they were getting inaccurate ias indication?

[@Cobalt135]

If the pitot was clogged and the static ports were still open the airspeed indicator would appear to drop if you started descending for approach, which would have a person adding power to increase speed. At the moment it gets blocked a climb would indicate increasing speed and a descent would indicate a decrease in speed.

[@brianwilkins5673]

That’s an excellent question, especially for a non pilot! If the entire system failed or was overwhelmed yes it could be a significant issue. When considering the other factors of them having minimum rest and then flying at night, losing even one part of the pitot static system could be enough to cause them to make a mistake. Planes have crashed for far less.

[@RR-oy1yh]

Any chance y'all could do an early analysis of N7329F? It crashed on Sept. 28th outside Allentown, PA. It was a Piper PA-28 w/ 2 onboard. 1 fatality, one serious injury.

[@Saltlick11]

Great vid as usual. RIP.

[@marcosmota1094]

I've watched a lot of these and this one is just tragic. No shenanigans, no indecision, just bad luck and uncooperative weather.

[@sonnyburnett8725]

The E model is a standard tail configuration, not a T tail so a tail stall from icing seems unlikely. This seems to resemble an approach using the AP and allowing the airspeed to degrade along the approach with icing on the airframe. Just my guess of course but it seems like a stall spin from that kind of set up. God bless them.

[@DanFrederiksen]

but can icing realistically build up that quickly to complete loss of control without the pilots noticing... my intuition is that you need enormous amounts of icing to lose control, however if they were flying very slow, the wings stall speed could perhaps have been critically raised by ice? but even then they would have had to fail to do anything about it. a vertical dive should build speed to do something I would think. and throttle up is a possibility. Quick google suggests that the approach speed of the kingair is 140kt so they would have been way below that speed. About half and they were still 5.5km away from the runway. even if we say the pitot tube iced up that should read zero speed, right? maybe they were gauging the speed by the sound but even that seems a stretch. and I would think that would be a mayday situation at least. and GPS speed would have to have failed as well (if avionics shows gps speed at all). even if we say mechanical failure that wouldn't explain the slow speed prior. so slowed into a stall and failed to do anything to recover it in time? possibly icing hastened stall. but was pushing the approach speed 2x lower than norm. could they have thought they were landing early somehow? that would mean flying completely blind and not reporting it... is flying slow a strategy to avoid icing? or could they have thought that in a foggy moment. wouldn't an aviator report heavy icing? only thing that makes a little sense is flying way too slow for unknown reason and failing to recognize the problem and recover. Seemingly at all. strange.

[@lebojay]

Ice can accumulate very quickly and slow an aircraft very dramatically. That proves nothing. Just saying.

[@reh3997]

I'm putting my guess on tail plane Ice. Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer de-ice boots may not have been functioning properly or they never activated de-ice boots. When the crew slowed to configure for landing and extended flaps, the tail may have stalled and the aircraft nosed over. The attitude at which it impacted the ground fits this scenario perfectly.

[@timol437]

This loss reminds me of the December 1981 accident of another King Air E90 into Lake Michigan on approach into Michigan City. due to mechanical failure from a maint. error. That airframe was recovered intact , the Ohio/WV accident will be much harder to analyze.

[@FASTDRAG200]

i was flying a similar king air in the relative area at the same time and we were picking up a significant amount of ice. seems like a big potential for a stalling scenario.

[@PInk77W1]

How do u get rid of the ice ? I’m not a pilot.

[@CptDoge]

@@PInk77W1 There are a few approaches to deal with icing on planes. 1) Anti-Icing: This typically refers to spraying the aircraft surfaces with special fluid that prevents ice from forming on the airframe for a short while. If you fly on an airliner in the winter you will notice this in the way of giant sprays hosing down the plane before departing. This is quite costly though, and not too often seen performed for smaller General Aviation aircraft like in this case. So while this prevents ice buildup for a while prior to departing, it will not get rid of ice that forms afterwards. 2) De-Icing: This deals with removing ice that has built up. Many, but not all aircraft are equipped with sensors that will detect ice buildup, to which there is a variety of different systems that can help with removing it. Ice usually forms on the leading edges of flight surfaces, engines, windscreen, carburetors, and external sensor probes. Some smaller aircraft have pneumatic boot type elements on the leading edge of the wingswhich will inflate and expand causing the ice to break. This is a nice back up to have when flying into minor icing conditions, but will not do anything if the ice builds up too much. Other systems include 'weeping wings' that release a deicing fluid, and heating elements (using hot engine bleed air or electric heating) along the surfaces. 3) Avoiding icing conditions. In order for icing to form you need 2 things: the aircraft has to be exposed to water( be this rain, snow, or the moisture from flying in clouds) and the temperature must be at or below freezing level. For the most part, the higher up you fly the colder it gets. The ASI video covered it, but the third option to deal with icing is to not fly through freezing conditions, or to try to mitigate this. One can try flying lower, or out of precipitation to try and leave the icing conditions. In this case there was icing conditions from the surface up, so while descending may have helped reduce the rate of buildup, it is uncertain Ice formation on an aircraft can be difficult to detect, as there is always a chance that sensors are malfunctioning, and the limited line of sight from the cockpit makes it difficult to see ice buildup on wing or even more dangerously on the tailplane. Ice really adversely affects aircraft performance, so understanding the weather conditions, the aircraft capabilities and limitations, and having options to get out of icing if it becomes unmanageable are critical for safety. Ice buildup drastically affects the performance of aircraft. Particularly ice on the wings; it changes the shape and smoothness of the wing that greatly increases drag and decreases lift. As a result, when you are slowing down to your 'usual' landing speed, the plane will no longer be able to generate enough lift for controlled flight and would stall. Today's technology has come a long way with weather forecasting, reporting, and understanding, but Icing is a tricky beast. Pilots & ATC work together to relay the weather conditions in real time to keep other aircraft updated of the situation. There are categorizations of icing severity that are used to report icing conditions; however these subjective as different aircraft are affected differently . What may be light icing for a Boeing 737 may be a significant hazard for something smaller for a Kingair. On top of that, weather systems are complicated and dynamic and change minute to minute, so conditions can rapidly improve or worsen between aircraft travelling through the same area. My flying experience is rather limited to small single engine aircraft in warm climates, and I have not flown in years. Please correct me if I'm in the wrong on any of the above, but I believe this covers the basics of aircraft icing. Hope this helps

[@braininavatnow9197]

@@CptDoge seems to me everything you wrote here was dead on accurate.... Ice on an airplane is scary

[@bernardanderson3758]

I appreciate your sharing this sadness and I’ve seen ice on many aircraft when I work at the airport when night freight haulers back in the days on The Piper Aztecs and the Beech 18 tri gear haulers and the worst ones I’ve seen was the Navajos .

[@TroyHoffman-7m2]

I've had enough ice on an Aztec for the elevator control to be reversed. A known ice Aztec at that. 8 in rams horns built beyond the boots. No flap landing with a great deal of power.

[@Richard-ib3kp]

If you even think you might have picked up ice, extra speed on final assuming plenty of runway would be appropriate. And crosscheck the a/s with gps g/s. Make sure pitot isn't frozen. The calm radio calls indicate it caught them totally off guard. A lesson for us all.

[@rogerbartels5223]

In my observation of this accident, the icing conditions, temperature and the fact that TAIL ICING is usually or at least many times much more difficult to remove than wing icing and is significantly more dangerous due to the instant stall causing a steep nose down attitude and impossible to recover condition when the tail does stall from the deformation of the airfoil parameters caused by tail icing than on the wings. Tail icing is an extremely dangerous condition that usually happens with no warning at all, not even a buffet and far too close to the ground to recover from and usually with such surprise to the pilot that they might not even recognize the situation that they are in until they are about to impact the ground and have no time to even make a radio call. Considering that this King Air took a "nose dive" as they were slowing down to the approach speed or toward landing speed tells me that this was absolutely a TAIL STALL due to icing on the tail. It is not necessarily the quantity of icing on the air foil, but it is the amount of airflow disruption due to the icing contamination. Use HALF or LESS FLAPS and maintain a higher airspeed to ensure that the Tail does not Stall. Always keep learning about flying conditions and fly safely to live to fly another day!!!

[@axelknutt5065]

Thanks Roger … I’m not a pilot so can you please explain why not to use flaps in icing

[@rogerbartels5223]

@@axelknutt5065 Because it changes the airflow over the tail which can change the aerodynamics of the tail which can increase the stall speed of the tail.

[@axelknutt5065]

@@rogerbartels5223 right, I get it, that makes sense now. thank you 👍🏻

[@tvegas]

Great info. As a layman, i'm curious. Richard said not to use flaps and increase speed. But he also said if you have flaps down and notice icing to Keep your configuration. Wouldn't you want to retract your flaps instead of keeping them down?

[@ralfbrandt3372]

I’d like to bring another topic into discussion, the autopilot. If the approach was done with autopilot , the autopilot could have put the nose up due to loss of lift due to icing, which would result in loss of airspeed, inducing the stall.

[@frankbumstead3838]

Good presentation of a difficult situation.

[@avflyguy]

Could it be possible that they were on autopilot and disconnected at MIDCO and didn't react fast enough to manual control of the aircraft - got surprised somehow on trim or flaps?

[@verilytruthful1914]

Will you be covering D-IRSG?

[@jamesphilip6737]

What percentage of general aviation fatalities are due to pilot error versus mechanical failure of the aircraft?

[@Rod.Machado]

Majority are pilot error, but next to it is pilot error induced bymechanical failure.

[@LACSACR]

Can you make an Early Analysis about the Piaggio D-IRSG crash in Costa Rica. Thanks

[@MrFg1980]

Horrible tragedy. RIP

[@dogfoodking]

Not a pilot but understand icing and I'm interested that this appears to be a possible factor in the mishap... I guess I've always thought of icing as a take off problem and not landing. The pilot seemed very experienced and calm with his radio calls. Very sad.

[@jonasbaine3538]

Ice is always possible. Danger is icing as plane slows for landing then starts turning for runway too since stall speed is much higher now.

[@CruceEntertainment]

The plane loses aerodynamic lift due to misshaped airfoils with ice covering - AND the plane is now heavier! You are basically flying a big old brick! You have to keep your speed up just to keep it from falling out of the sky, but first you have to KNOW that you have an icing problem, and they might not have known at all.

[@gusmc01]

I used to think the same but after watching so many of these videos it appears that icing is more of an issue on landing after it accumulates on the airframe (often unknowingly) during flight.

[@LACSACR]

Perhaps a flap asymmetry?

[@jonslg240]

*BYW look at how, as the speed goes down, the altitude goes up..then down..then up.. but the whole time the speed is going down.* That looks a lot like pilot error or control issues.

[@HotTakeHQ]

I thought Dan gryber took a clip of ur explanation and used it out of context. I didn’t agree with him on that but anyhoo Great content ❤

[@rodolfoayalajr.8589]

Thank you for this educational video. Rip Amen 🙏

[@scodavis]

If I want to keep tabs on this accident and know when the NTSB final report is released, what is the best way to do so?

[@richardmcspadden9189]

AOPA media channels, including the AOPA Air Safety Institute releases. NTSB average is 2 years to complete an investigation, though they are working to accelerate that.

[@S1L3NTG4M3R]

RIP - Thoughts and prayers for the families.

[@JMChladek]

Do we have any data on the meteorological conditions other than the icing? I would be curious what the cloud deck was. Reason I ask would be if the pilots had any visual signs of icing. Obviously they can't see the elevators and given it was around sunrise, light levels were relatively low as well, especially on descent through clouds. But, I am curious if they could have seen something. It doesn't take much ice to upset lift though.

[@huntercooke9592]

You said in icing conditions to either descend or move horizontally. Sometimes ascending is the right choice to get out in icing conditions. Sometimes descending will make it worse. Moving horizontally a little isnt gonna help either youd have to do a full 180

[@akrammy9251]

Great advices .

[@SailFlyTri]

I like your videos sir. Thank you.

[@olgreywolf9688]

Based on the vocal exchanges, this appears to be a very professional crew. I've flown turboprop and recip twins ... and was always a coward when dealing with any form of in-flight icing. Which, certainly, these professionals MUST have been aware of 1) affects on flight characteristics of their airplane of picking up ice, and 2) when to get the hell outta there ... no matter what. The video indicates complete and total loss of control ... in seconds!! This would appear something of a total mystery. Much sorrow and condolences to all involved. Icing is so extremely treacherous. Even the very best fall victim!!!

[@WilliamDiederich]

Caveating this by saying I'm an ATP but not a King Air pilot - is it possible to put the props in beta? At least one of the pilots was only recently certified / potentially low time. Might explain the sudden loss of control; or not.

[@rashmisingh-ht3sq]

How good deicing equipment really are on Kingair? How do large jets tackle such situations?

[@libertine5606]

Just watched the FAA icing DVD last night. I will be interesting if they encountered any icing en route. They could have not had any or much ice on the wing, being rounded, and had a tail plane stall with no time to recover. Or they had a stall maybe thought it was a tail plane stall and did the wrong thing. One of the things they recommended in the DVD was if there is a possibility that you encountered ice en route to cycle the boots at the final approach fix. Maybe they didn't do that because of the distraction of the animal on the runway. I didn't read the preliminary report yet but these are my thoughts.

[@BrianEltherington]

What the heck is going on here? Way too many accident reports in the last month. My heart aches for every loss. My condolences for families of all who have lost their lives while following their aspirations over the last few months. This seems like a dark time for aviation, and I am very saddened. Pilots, please be vigilant on your procedures! You have an entire lifetime to fly. Make that life a long as possible!

[@RaspySquares]

Yea man...

[@gumbyshrimp2606]

All these private pilots got their licenses handed to them by their DPE’s without knowing the basics and things have finally caught up.

[@adotintheshark4848]

I was going to mention..a lot of these are popping up the past two months or so

[@miragesmack007]

Actually it’s been a good month. We went 10 or 11 days at least with no accidents. In September, I think there was at least one every day.

[@JBalloonist]

This is nothing new. There are accidents on a weekly basis. We just hear about them more often due to social media and the constant news cycle.

[@Eric-gj6uf]

Good point. I had not considered that.

[@FREEDOM195844]

Isn’t it a standard feature of a King Aire to have deicing equipment?

[@pchantreau]

I find the "supercooled water droplets clouds from 1300 ft agl" thing especially scary. Running into supercooled water at that phase of the flight, at this airspeed and in this configuration, yikes. Especially for the tailplane icing risk...

[@MarkJoseph81]

Gut wrenching CCTV footage of their final moments of this Earth! God rest their souls, and I hope they didn't suffer.

[@drewleevy5420]

Why do we still have 1990 quality of cameras??

[@suecobandito8954]

ATR crash years ago occurred when pilots came out of holding for the approach, lowered flaps, disrupting the airflow due to ice. Wasn’t it in Indiana? Result all ATRs taken out of the north and sent south.

[@timedwards4341]

Thats not what happened it built a ridge of ice behind the deice boot that caused airflow sep. they were hold with flaps 15 and that aggravated the build up, but they did nothing weong by holding dlaps 15 was not prohibited by FOM

[@sonoftherepublic9792]

A commentator on another channel mentioned knowing both pilots and this aircraft, and noted he was aware that the tail surface icing control systems were perhaps inop or problematic in some regard.

[@Cobalt135]

if that is true, combined with the fact that the weather here (where the crash occurred and where this pilot conducts a lot of there flights) is just getting favorable for icing then it could be telling. Preflight weather should have alerted this to them though. Even if it wasn't INOP it was dark out pre dawn and going along with the change in season never gave it mind to check the wings.

[@j_taylor]

Yikes. I hope they didn't fly into forecast icing with their deicing inop. It sounds like they were in icing conditions for a long time, though. Wouldn't that have caught them earlier if deicing didn't work?

[@Cobalt135]

@@j_taylor Well, that all depends on how much moisture was in the air and how fast it was accumulating on the airframe.

[@shellyjoiner1839]

@son of the republic, can you tell me where you saw that comment, please?

[@haroldbrown1998]

What about rime ice?.

[@jameshaas5922]

Tail plane icing? Can occur at higher speeds during flap configuration. Looks like they were zipping along pretty good on approach. Awful situation, condolences to those affected.

[@HollywoodRecordingStudio]

When you enhance the frame, you can see that a piece from the flies away from the plane before it hits the ground.

[@vedymin1]

Maybe the plane was icing up, they were flying on auto and it was compensating for it more and more, the pilot disengaged the auto and wasn't prepared for the needed control inputs ? Maybe even the change in config could have exasperated matters ?

[@scottygdaman]

what is the % of small plane accidents caused from pilot error over the last ten years ? R.I.P.

[@richardmcspadden9189]

We fly about 25 million flight hours a year safely in private aviation...that's 10s of millions of takeoff and landings. Of the relatively small percentage that crash, most of those, 75% or better, are due to some type of pilot error.

[@stephaniegifford2020]

Is it possible that ice had built up in the fuel lines.

[@GreatCdn59]

1:26 - you can almost hear an alarm going off in the last fraction of a second in the last transmission from the pilot. very faint but it sounds like it

[@Kincentc]

Damn that's a good ear.

[@michaelsimpson3574]

Nice catch. Definitely a two tone alarm can be heard whatever that indicates

[@jonslg240]

*You forgot something pretty important: DON'T use your de-icing boots when you're on short final.*

[@billigerfusel]

Why not?

[@Bren39]

@@billigerfusel I'm guessing because that'll disrupt the airflow over the wings and with the plane already at low airspeed... Not a good idea.

[@morerightrudder9742]

@@billigerfusel Aircraft manufacturers recommend you don't as it disturbs the laminar flow of the wing.

[@nagaviper1169]

With today's tech, I wonder if cameras couldn't be placed in such a way to show the tail and leading edge of the wing. I believe Tesla has multiple cameras built in. Just curious

[@leecowell8165]

that looks like a stall caused by flap extension during icing conditions. nothing mentioned about ice from the pilots sounded like a normal approach. amazing that it lost all lift that suddenly this had to be a stall.. it musta been a few seconds of horror for them. so sad...