EARLY BLACK METAL band debate with Jason Deaville | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)

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Join us for the live stream of LOCK HORNS, a weekly live streamed show debating the various genres of Banger’s Metal Family Tree. Thursdays at 4PM EST.
Episode 12: EARLY BLACK METAL features host Sam Dunn and guest JASON DEAVILLE, journalist for Bravewords.com.
We'll be reading your comments in real time throughout the show but you can start the debate now in the chat: This one's about the history, so tell us what seminal bands are missing. How do you define these styles and this era? Ready? Fight!
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[@Hrvo182]

Burzum and Dissection were such huge influences on the whole genre, it's crazy to leave them out but include stuff that came after that, especially since we're talking early black metal.

[@schninx]

because of fuck PC durde.... like their fuckery with DsO is ok, but clandestine blaze isnt....

[@bubbaharrod2530]

But banger has to get all of their selections antifa approved

[@raizarslaxterhaha]

They have a problem separating the person with the music/artist, and that its stupid as fuck. Who cares what Varg is as a person? It doesnt affect nothing his contribution to music. Same with other artists, like, you have to judge his work, not the person itself.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

@@bubbaharrod2530 They added Burzom, you moron. 30:20

[@bubbaharrod2530]

@@ignatiusjackson235 well that's justice, usually guys like blayne will say if you are right of Stalin you are a Nazi and he will then leave you out

[@bucksatanII]

fenriz gives a better history of black metal

[@sonnenrad8080]

yeah, these guys don't know what they're fucking talking about.

[@NunYaBiznesz]

It's amazing how smart Fenriz is. I'd love to have a beer with him.

[@drageben145]

Vil Pfähler me too he actually is a dj at a bar in Oslo just figure out wich one and you can have a beer with him

[@KatyReminiec9399]

@Metal Enthusiast Accept is straight up metal.. Riot is power metal

[@RenierRavelo]

It’s because Fenriz was part of that history! Not a fucking nerd like this guy!

[@AceLM92]

BATHORY always seems to be the least talked about (as a whole, not subgenre), which is sad considering how good Quorthon's music is

[@blucu001]

The problem is Bathroy stopped touring around '85 altogether, and Quorthon was pretty low key and didn't appear that much.

[@AceLM92]

+Parker Cestaric true, but that is partly what made Bathory great. and Quorthon clearly had a big influence on Norwegian Black Metal from how Fenriz made it sound

[@blucu001]

+HeadBangerAust very true, although I believe that kind of seclusion and near anonymity is partly what hurts Bathory, whereas all the other bands are somewhat more out in the open and more clearly active, but that's what I can determine.

[@AceLM92]

+Parker Cestaric in the plus side to that, he didn't over expose himself on the internet with promos and vlogs like some bands do today. but I wish he did continue to tour, let alone not die

[@blucu001]

+HeadBangerAust same here, it would've been cool to see where he would be gotten had he continued touring. I think him being so low key is what makes him so overlooked.

[@BanjoSick]

Sodom should be noted as proto black metal, too. In the Sign of evil was super important for the norwegian black metal musicians.

[@michaelhz37]

Benjamin Decker the first 3 records

[@pietrayday9915]

Agreed - there was a handful of German bands that pushed thrash over the border into early black metal in the same way that there were little scenes in places like Brazil and Chile that were pushing their own versions of thrash into early black metal.

[@chrismkimmel1]

But if Sodom is Proto black metal when that means Slayer is Porto back metal?

[@JanderVK]

Yeah, they kinda underplayed the importance of the early albums of the Tuetonic bands.

[@natelandherr5202]

Pleasure to Kill

[@nailspine2553]

Thorns. Thorns needs to be on this list. Their demo tapes alone were a VERY heavy influence on Norwegian bands like Emperor, Mayhem, Satyricon.

[@thomasruble3343]

nailspine Yes!!!!!

[@superiormusic]

nailspine ^This

[@padraig88]

and Incarnator!

[@dickwhiskey8041]

I posted about Thorns before reading your post.

[@grungil7570]

Thorns was influential on a underground level before 1993. You can clearly see they were on another level in terms of demos quality, but unfortunately they didnt caugh the 1994-95 train to success. Their debut album was released only in 2000 and no one noticed it.

[@ryanstucke7811]

no dissection but they have cradle of filth?

[@TheGrav666]

Stay tuned.... Dissection was not forgotten :-)

[@ryanstucke7811]

+/mu/ck right! they are more symphonic goth

[@kjetilhansen5363]

@@ChrisJohnson1988 So people are elitist because they don't agree with your definition of the genre? Why is the Black Metal label so important to you? People are allowed to voice opinions you don't like.

[@kjetilhansen5363]

@@deadliestassassin3092 And being extremely childish while doing so. There's a difference between saying a band sucks and stooping to personal insults while implying the desire to silence everyone who dislikes your favourite band. I don't even dislike Cradle, but hardly consider them black metal. That's a silly thing to feel personally insulted by.

[@kjetilhansen5363]

@@deadliestassassin3092 Do I care? To a certain extent. A hell of a lot less than you seem to think, though. I'm not exactly losing any sleep over something so trivial. Anyway, I could just throw the ball back in your court. Why do you care so much what I think?

[@timmoore173]

BATHORY is the SOUND of Black Metal. VENOM is the creator. Both are awesome.

[@BangerTV]

Nicely put!

[@xXGoreXKillerXx]

Just THANKS YOU!!!!

[@thegrimmtruth4185]

Venom shoved thier cock down bathorys throat and he took it all .... venom rules pussy...

[@PRHILL9696]

bathory is soft

[@allstopblue5717]

This is exactly how I feel. The sound was started by Bathory. Aesthetics, lyrical content, was there for Venom, but the music is flat out nothing to do with what we now call black metal. Bathory the music absolutely sounds black metal. The return, and under the sign of the black Mark is straight up black metal SOUND. In 1985 and 1987. Music/sound is more important in my opinion.

[@amixofeverything]

If Venom is "proto-Black Metal", than Slayer should be considered "proto-Black Metal" too. Not only were Slayer's first two albums influential in the Norwegian Black Metal scene, but they wore a kind of corpse paint, sang about Satan, and they were much more abrasive and dark sounding than Anthrax or Metallica.

[@mitchfindergeneral]

As much as I agree that Slayer had black metal elements, I think it was to a far lesser degree than Venom. Mercyful Fate, on the other hand, I never fully understood it being considered first wave.

[@mitchfindergeneral]

Bathory was inspired by Venom and all the black metal bands wanted to be Bathory.

[@mitchfindergeneral]

CARLO I don't think Bathory wanted to be Slayer, they wanted to be something inspired by Slayer, Venom, Celtic Frost/Hellhammer. I do agree that Slayer was an inspiration to black metal, but so was Motorhead and Teutonic thrash. Where do we draw the line? Perhaps there shouldn't even be a first wave of black metal, or it should be more restrictive. I'd cut out Mercyful Fate pretty damn quick despite them being my favorite band.

[@amixofeverything]

CARLO Did he? I mean...he certainly didn't sing like Tom. And his third album was straight up second wave Black Metal. I don't even know to what extent Quorthon was influenced by Slayer. He seems to have been more influenced by Hellhammer and Venom. Just my opinion.

[@amixofeverything]

CARLO That I'll agree with. Although I think Celtic Frost and Sodom were around, Slayer were the heaviest. I don't think the blast beat had been developed yet. I've always hated that early Slayer were classified as thrash, if only because they were far more Satanic than Anthrax and Metallica.

[@PRATIK1900]

this list is incomplete without Burzum(should be right beside Darkthrone)

[@LarsAgerbk]

I can't believe there's not more people asking for this

[@DEATHPHOMET]

I too concur, it's ridiculous that Burzum isn't up there

[@LarsAgerbk]

the question is whether you can call Burzum political. It certaintly doesn't fit in the current political scene.

[@Sirtalksalot92]

+H agreed

[@joddeurter2448]

Transilvanian Hunger

[@pierredessein5568]

Anyone else notice the Marduk logo was upside down at the beginning?

[@BangerTV]

+MJS2001 Shhhhhh. (Lol)

[@jesse_cole]

+MJS2001 lol which one is the Marduk logo?

[@pierredessein5568]

+Jesse Cole The one to the left of Dimmu Borgir.

[@jesse_cole]

MJS2001 Ohhhh, got it. Wait, which one is Dimmu Borgir?

[@pierredessein5568]

+Jesse Cole Next to the guy on the right, it is easy to read.

[@marcelodornellesramo]

This channel is so good, I'm so anxious for the next video.

[@TheGrav666]

+Marc Geller Thx for tuning in! Stay tuned for more =)

[@Nikaggressivemission]

Dissection are missing! Who could miss them out!

[@-gnicE-]

Dissection is considered blackened death metal. Much like soulside journey from Darkthrone.

[@Bigotdweller]

just satanic death metal, at least thats what Jon said, and ofc their own definition "Anti cosmic metal of death", dissection doesnt sound like any other band at all, they were their own

[@Journeyman107]

They're blackened death as in they were essential to the formation of that genre, but their first two albums were definitely black metal- just with a more melodic twist

[@Bhazalt]

Dissection is too unique for this video.

[@PRHILL9696]

they are dead

[@MagisterMalleus]

Why did nobody mention Windir? Such an underrated band.

[@Nightbreed82]

+Badatstuff I think they were added to the "Folk Metal" chart in an earlier Lock Horns episode.

[@cobijing]

also parabellum (col) and blasfemia.

[@the6ig6adwolf]

Mantas is correct, the subgenrefication of heavy metal has become absolutely ridiculous.

[@tingtongnidnoi]

An element missing between the "proto" (first wave) and the "Black Metal" (second wave) is Death Metal. Many of the prominent second wave bands started as Death Metal bands: Thou Shalt Suffer (Emperor) Old Funeral & Ambutation (Burzum,Immortal) First demos/singles/albums of Absu and Darkthrone were Death Metal. In mid 80's some great albums were released ,which inlfuenced both Death & Black metal bands later on; Possessed's magnificent "Seven Churches" is worth a mention,along with Sepultura's "Bestial Devastation" and "Morbid Visions". In my opinion,Possessed,early Sepultura and early Slayer should be amongst the "proto" bands here. Bathory /Qourton is the father of scandinavian Black Metal,from the very start,period. "...The Return" -85 is still the darkest album out there.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

That's an outrageously insightful comment.

[@DavidVega-wi5pr]

Yup you're absolutely right

[@dudeedud3688]

Where's DISSECTION?? They brought a new vision of technicality and brought in more classic Heavy Metal riffing and guitar solos and also reached that good production without loosing the feel of BM and actually enhancing it! They had a specific sickness to their atmosphere that was unmatched.

[@jannekevanstralen3720]

Was just thinking this they would definitely be on there

[@michaelmontano7844]

black metal just gives the feeling of frozen forests and foggy mountains.

[@ga121169]

Living Colour are my fav black metal band...

[@ShiningTrapezoid]

so original

[@jaimeres]

I laughed my ass off when I read this. 🤘🏿

[@lucasstruna3962]

Black Death is my favorite

[@TJV83]

Durrrr hurrrr I see what you did there durrrrrr hurrrrrrr

[@joker71172]

Lol.....fucking awesome guitarist tho!

[@RedUncle]

awesome show! I love the format and discussion topic - cheers!

[@josephinethegypsy5223]

Oh, I hope you do much more material on BM. The Norwegian scene brought us up so destinctve and uniqe sound in which, like you guys said, it is all about emotions. Thanks for all your good work, Sam!

[@FromHellDesigns]

A "war metal" episode would be very interesting

[@TheGrav666]

I agree... a bunch of Canadian bands would definitely need to be represented on this one. Who would sit at the top? My vote is for Blasphemy.

[@FromHellDesigns]

+Jason D no doubt

[@russell2890]

what's war metal?

[@FromHellDesigns]

+Russel Keith it's like a weird mixture of black metal, death metal, and grindcore. Bands like Conqueror, Revenge, Blasphemy, Proclamation, and Black Witchery are consider War Metal.

[@Vanthyrn]

+J.I. Vargas Don't forget Archgoat and Morbosidad

[@Nightbreed82]

I definitely think Immortal should be on this chart. That said, they used to refer to themselves as "Holocaust Metal". Apparently they prefer that term over "Black Metal" to classify the band. Kolgrim invented the term "holocaust metal" in a 1992 interview promoting the video for The Call of the Wintermoon. Since they were labeled as "Satanic" by the media following the video, they wanted a classification that fit better, because, apparently they aren't Satanic.

[@MARSHOMEWORLD]

Celtic Frost definitely has roots to symphonic black metal; as early as '85 they were incorporating orchestral elements into their music.

[@addisonlewis723]

Very true!

[@pietrayday9915]

Celtic Frost were right there, blazing the trails for so many extreme metal movements - black, death, doom, goth, symphonic... I've even heard some good arguments for Celtic Frost being one of the earlier groove/nu metal and industrial metal pioneers! They're still criminally unfamiliar to metal fans in general. Certainly, it's hard not to hear Celtic Frost's influence in bands like Emperor, Dimmu Borgir, Arcturus, etc....

[@JanderVK]

Yep, Celtic on their third album alone brought in elements of Doom/Symphonic-Neoclassical/Gothic Rock/Industrial in to their music.

[@jiggashady]

Samael and Greek black metal in general is missing. Dissection, Sacramentum, Hades (who you interviewed), Ved Buens Ende, Ildjarn, Strid, Thorns and Ulver for the early second wave stuff is way more essential and should be there instead of Dimmu and CoF.

[@jacobeberhardt1649]

If you google Burzum, it shows up as a "musical group". I found that funny.

[@MeetTheSLAYER]

@Sam Bowling Alley lol

[@omarelayeb8947]

The band that has a demo called Black Metal Masters is the band : Holy Moses (October 1980)

[@crazymadd669]

great video. good discussion. this could easily take quite awhile. I think it will be cool to see how you guys branch this out, plenty of other sub sub out there. i personally have been really enjoying dsbm lately. lots of older xasthur, MACKY, and other stuff.

[@TheBurning1981]

Venom started it, Bathory refined it. I hear a lot of people say Venom weren’t atmospheric or it was just thrash metal. Yet they had songs like Witching Hour, Buried Alive, In League With Satan, In Nomine Satanas, Don’t Burn the Witch, Cry Wolf, and 7 Gates of Hell definitely had atmosphere. Bathory’s first album sounds damn near like a Venom album (besides the vocals of course). Hell, even Bathory’s “Born for Burning” has the exact same riff as Venom’s “Don’t Burn the Witch”. Both equally important bands in regards to the creation of Black Metal.

[@Wagoo]

I'm always amazed how many people start flapping their heads away in the comments before actually WATCHING the episode

[@nailspine2553]

I would also like to see a melodic black metal (or scandinavian black metal) subgenre to include highly influential bands such as Dawn, Dissection, Sacramentum, etc.

[@lucasstruna3962]

this channel has come a long way

[@andrewbellavie795]

Sam, I am a huge metal nerd and this show is awesome. I would like to see more talk about controversial bands in sub genres, as well as more discussion about lesser known bands. for example: Master's Hammer are new to me but apparently are key proto black metal visionaries, why did they make the list?

[@freakydruid2159]

they should save 2 minutes at the end of each episode to identify current best examples of the genre. with live feed input of course

[@BangerTV]

Good idea!

[@slamdeathmetal1]

brother sam you forgot dissection melodic black n death metal

[@randomacount1222345]

very good idea! should also add some audio examples show us some of the bands best work ( for origonal shit not new) interviews are good too. keep up the good shit \M/

[@mountedpatrolman]

Burzum and Windir are two of the top five most influential bands in the Genre, especially after the term Black Metal was spawned.

[@buwerhassan]

mountedpatrolman Windir = Love

[@PRHILL9696]

nope

[@azeloliver3780]

great episode!!

[@harrisonmyers1572]

Newcastle-upon-Tyne is also where Brian Johnson of AC/DC is from. In fact, his first major band was named after a moniker for their accent: Geordie.

[@monos33]

This channel needs more views. Great stuff!

[@jevfkon5787]

Regardless of politics, Burzum is at the top, they are the quintessential 90's black metal band. Bathory's The Return album imo is the first formal ( albeit 80s) bm album.

[@luizedgar99]

Hi Sam, Hails and Horns from Brazil! A band was mentioned several times, but wasn't added, Impaled Nazarene. One of the few that we can mention as founder of a Black Metal which has strong influences from crust punk and is very fast, from beginning until now. Besides, i think they are the most notorious Black Metal band from Finland. And, if possible, do an episode with all subgenres. Great job since A Headbanger's Journey. \m/

[@woodlandwanderer3929]

I'm glad to see a black metal debate episode! In the future Sam, Please add Xasthur, Leviathan, Forgotten Tomb under Depressive Suicidal Black Metal!

[@addisonlewis723]

Yes, they should add DBMS!

[@CatCaregiver-ie1ej]

Most of those bands on the left are proto black metal, but Bathory are the bridge. They are definitively Black Metal, just doing it earlier than everyone else. In particular, The Return and Under the Sign in '85 and '87 are absolutely black metal and some of the best ever. Those albums still stand up today as just as heavy, cold, evil, and gloriously badly recorded as the 90s Norwegian bands.

[@PorscheJon]

What about Spotify? Banger should be the metal curators on Spotify as well!

[@MrMetalCreature]

Apparently Spotify are removing metal

[@MrMetalCreature]

***** associatedmediacoverage.com/spotify-and-pandora-announce-plans-to-remove-heavy-metal-music/

[@MrMetalCreature]

***** yeah i saw that too

[@ThePassingVoid]

What about a late 60's/early 70's debate? (Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Iron Butterfly, Judas Priest, Cream, Blue Cheer, Jimi Hendrix, Budgie, Alice Cooper, Led Zeppelin, Kiss, Blue Öyster Cult, Steppenwolf, etc)

[@joshcotton1996]

Cradle of filth was definitely part of that second wave, toured with emperor and were in correspondence with euroynomous. Their 90s discography is definitely black metal and dusk and her embrace is a masterpiece

[@TheGrav666]

+Josh Cotton I couldn't agree more. I think the argument from viewers was one that questioned where they stand now. But, that is a moot point - as this episode explored the early roots, and, as you mentioned, COF were part of that. There is no argument.

[@wenndingofoster5680]

@@TheGrav666 early cradle of Filth was heavier than many of the bands. Everyone dismisses a band if they make a living from their music.

[@313bootboy6]

Euronymous liked them and Faust admitted his murder to Dani. Nuff said haha

[@phoenixzappa7366]

Cradle of Filth is defined as shit metal

[@Lasergridable]

Absolutely Master's Hammer. Abbath and Nergal on their recent metal talks podcast on Spotify splurged about how influential their music was, even going so far as to say that some other black metal bands took their ideas and fused them into their own stuff.

[@waylander24]

no BURZUM or IMMORTAL... wtf

[@obscurecult]

+NORTHERN MUSICIAN noticed it. It seems lots of people in Black Metal world like to pretend Varg didn't influence the genre a LOT. They don't like Varg.

[@deathmattkiller]

+Ricardo Rosa I mean can you really blame them now

[@obscurecult]

+deathmattkiller yes

[@current81]

+deathmattkiller To hate on Varg is a common thing among the politically correct, corporate, streamlined "metalheads" of today. Varg is a more intelligent and honest human being than 99% of the metal community, but anyone who goes against society and dares to criticize the foundations of the modern western world and all the hypocrisy, bullshit and lies will be ridiculed by the mindless, brainwashed masses. Burzum is one of the most influential BM projects ever and should of course be included on any serious list or discussion of this kind.

[@glenmorethegamer7038]

yeah i noticed! how come??? those are my fave B.M ever Burzum & Immortal!!

[@VM0451]

Pity I missed this. First wave black metal is one of my greatest musical inspirations. Would be worth mentioning the old school thrash bands that were important for that, like Sodom and Destruction.

[@DM-Damian]

Personally, I'd love to see you guys dig into atmospheric, blackgaze and American black metal

[@BangerTV]

It's coming!

[@DM-Damian]

Awesome!

[@LloydSevigny]

Thorns is another top pic for those purists...the self titled 2001 is amazing !

[@brandontadday6288]

Banger TV should make an episode for modern BM in which they can include Atmospheric BM, Blackgaze, Progressive Black Metal and DSBM.

[@carpshaw]

Obviously Deafheaven and Ghost Bath would be on the black gaze list, but so should Violet Cold Cold and Perennial Isolation. I don't give two shits about it not being "true" black metal. I listen to this stuff alongside Gorgoroth and Leviathan and it doesn't bother me one bit

[@IanIsrael]

At The Heart Of Winter is one of the best BM albums ever,imo.

[@OIMACTTA_AUJW]

For me growing up in Australia in the early 90s it was Absu who introduced me first to black metal. Then Emperor. We had to import everything at that stage but Absu definitely left a mark on the early scene.

[@Aimtofflan]

No Carpathian Forest?!

[@eisengeist94]

No Burzum, no Black Metal.

[@johnmclellan2257]

Will Vaughn 6.3 the fact that they even had to write it in later is fucking astounding. Burzum's first 4 albums are quintessential black metal, and he influenced pretty much everyone who came after. I get that a lot of people don't like Varg as a person or agree with his political views, but his influence on the genre as a whole is enormous and undeniable.

[@drageben145]

John McLellan Yeah, but not it's reputation in norway

[@sanatsrivastava2814]

I think the reason why Burzum wasn't put on the board was due to his racist affiliations. I think Burzum's first 4 albums are perfection of Black Metal but yeah.

[@metalhammer3432]

Don't know why his beliefs play any part in his role in this, who cares he still did what he did.

[@hmpz36911]

That's like saying "No Behemoth, no heavy metal"

[@dmisfit79]

How'bout Immortal, Taake, even Burzum.

[@Ricardo-gn2bp]

He added Immortal later to the list.

[@TheGrav666]

+Dave Chernobog Taake deserve credit, but I think they fall just outside the timeline to be categorized with the bands in this episode. Taake was a demo band from '93 to '99 when they released their first studio effort, Nattestid Ser Porten Vid. Fucking awesome band though!

[@EvaAliceD]

Yes Taake so brilliant but seldom mentioned! Nordbundet times now with winter again🤘🖤🖤🖤

[@wenndingofoster5680]

How about some BEHERIT

[@gehennagehenna1373]

Fuck you mean "even" Burzum?! On any Black Metal chart, it's place is right up there with Darkthrone and Mayhem.

[@milkweedreflections]

Great video. Subbed

[@jacopoallio4536]

Celtic Frost DID refer to themselves as a black metal band. The term was out there before the second wave. It just wasn't used a lot.

[@DanasLilMakeup]

Guys please, make a discussion on GOTHIC METAL. i think is glorious and deserves attention. Keep it up with the great job!

[@nickglover8738]

I got a lot of bands that could be on the chart

[@021Sweden]

+DanasLilMakeup i love sirenia's 2 first albums .. kinda hate how they later went in a "nightwish" direction

[@021Sweden]

+K Gubbas youre so fucking "true" the only kind of metal i cant stand is glam/hair metal .. i own 1200 cd's and it reaches from accept to the most primitive metal you'll ever hear

[@obscurecult]

+021Sweden exactly. Within Temptation's first too, is awesome. Later they started to sound like Evanescence for some reason!

[@paulhetrick1759]

021Sweden Glam is not metal.

[@Mayheml]

33:50 Jason explains everything about Cradle of Filth with his gesture.

[@TheGrav666]

Haha... it was that obvious, eh? At that point Sam and I had already seen the chat filling w Cradle comments =P

[@gmod8033]

+Jason D yes haha very obvious sir and with good reason

[@mistet7938]

Lol

[@PRHILL9696]

COF most successful black metal band ever

[@MindGamingMantis]

Haters gon' hate. Find me a black metal song that goes harder than Queen of Winter Throned or The Rape & Ruin of Angels

[@necessaryeverett]

One very important band that was forgotten in the Black Metal bracket was Thorns. Snorre Ruch was instrumental in bringing about the black metal sound to the music. His use of dissonant chords and drone string technique are imitated by pretty much every band in that bracket.

[@Wagoo]

they were mentioned

[@alasanoei]

For me this thing was worth of watching because of the short clip with Dani. Yeah, I'm a big fan. He's very intelligent and so well spoken. And writes the best lyrics in metal. Or anywhere, really. I have never considered COF to be black metal although the esthetics and the vocals match. The satanic part is missing. But I don't know enough about this genre to have an opinion on this topic.

[@jasonvegan5761]

Not sure why Burzum was initially left off the list, Varg is a dick but the music has influenced countless black metal bands. Cradle should be included in the black metal list and not taken off IMO. They've gone off on a gothic black metal tangent as of late but their roots are in black metal and they were also hugely influential. I would also like to see Profanatica on the list as well. Not well known but they began playing and recording evil satanic black metal in 1990! They've made a comeback as of late but their early 90's stuff is troo kvlt!!!

[@current81]

Apart from disagreeing with you that Varg is a dick, you are right. Burzum is a lot more influential than most of the bands on that list (the one to the right). Only Mayhem, Darkthrone and Emperor are on the same level. Not having one of the most important black metal projects ever included is a joke.

[@jordanholland73]

+current81 he killed a man and burned m a church along with being involved with plans to do more. not to mention he's one of the most pretentious people ever to live. I like Burzum and I think Varg has some good but you can't say the dude isn't a dick

[@current81]

jordanholland73 Varg is more honest, intelligent and independent than 99% of the politically correct, shallow, sensationalist morons who condemn him. People like him will always be a breath of fresh air in our modern, ugly societies where most people conform to the system and just follow the rules of the elite like mindless drones. To mention the Øystein killing and the church burnings from the 90's is old and redundant. It happened more than 20 years ago under circumstances that neither of us can relate to or ever are going to know all the details about, so I see no need to moralize. Past is past. I think we can at least agree that Burzum is highly influential.

[@jordanholland73]

+current81 I never said he wasn't honest and intelligent and even disregarding Euronymous and the church burnings he's just a pretentious dick. maybe he's a nice person and I greatly respect his music taste. I don't "hate him because I'm a politically correct streamlined modern metalhead", I'm just saying he's a dick. Doesn't mean I hate him or Burzum because Burzum made some of the best black metal of the 90s, maybe of all tome.

[@jordanholland73]

+current81 *music, not music taste. my bad

[@OmegaSwitch]

The fact that Dark Funeral is on this list really makes me question the judgement here. Ulver, Dissection, Rotting Christ, Beherit, Thorns and certainly Tormentor *needs* to be there.

[@addisonlewis723]

Cradle of filth shouldn't be on this list.

[@TheRealLucifer_Morningstar]

DF formed in 1993, the same as Ulver. Dissection DEFINITELY needs on this list.

[@telleroflies4373]

The fact that Sarcofago isn't on this list proves these guys are a joke and don't know anything. That band was a major factor in what these losers call "proto black metal ".

[@ernestomedina7885]

...Sam, you are "THE" authority in all things Metal, with a methodical scientific approach to the subject, organizing and developing a process that for many should be the "Bible" or the "Cosmos" on the matter and where to go for reference and learning, Hails from the Hell of Los Angeles CA

[@DecayingReverie]

As far as new subgenres for black metal, I would go with melodic black metal, symphonic black metal, black death, depressive/suicidal black metal, atmospheric black metal, and black thrash. A new genre I've seen growing is a subgenre called blackgaze with bands like Alcest and Lantlos. I don't know whether it will be a full on subgenre in the future.

[@RedgraveGilver]

+Decaying Reverie I thinkBlackgaze is already kind of a genre. They are many bands already using the "blackgaze" sound.

[@sombhattacharyya]

Mayhem is the quintessential black metal band. The Euronymus style riffing is what makes black metal live .

[@vasylartyomovski9606]

WHERE THE FUCK IS BURZUM?????????????????????

[@-gnicE-]

Taboo i guess.... Det Som Engang Var is still my favorite Norwegian black metal album. Riffs are killer cold in it. Also love how the art work has his self titled original cover worked into the bottom lol.

[@Turzath]

let me blow your mind lavonardo.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/toee-cover.jpg

[@malteadotas4]

no Burzum. Laughable. This debate lost all its credibility

[@charlesissleepy]

right? varg and fenriz are probably black metal's best theorists, in my opinion, they just seem to get it better. pretty new to black metal, so big fat grain of salt with that

[@St3C0n]

Burzum ARE THERE folks. Watch the damn video!

[@cptjusticegmail]

Nice to see other people using "proto" to describe things. I would also add that there seems to be a band which is a "harbinger". For extreme metal, as a whole, it was Venom. For death metal specifically, it was Possessed. For 2nd wave black metal, it was Bathory.

[@fizzybubblech666]

Guys! NSBM episode would be very interesting!

[@aces505]

how about impaled nazarene?

[@Fiddling_while_Rome_burns]

6:40 is wrong about the term Black Metal being used to identify a music coming later. It was around in the early 80s. In fact I have a vid of a UK TV show from then identifying Black Metal as a genre. The 80s Black Metal bands are the black metal bands and the later ones something else. If a new music came along calling itself heavy metal and said hey Iron Maiden and Metallica, your'e no-longer Heavy Metal you're now proto-heavy metal, we';re heavy metal, I doubt people would accept it.

[@littlebiscuit8746]

Can you be brief about the tv show you're taking about?

[@MerseYattle]

I agree totally. It's just wrong and some sort of revisionism done wrong, the need to categorize and and split things that some people feel is just not healthy. xD One needs to look at the time that these early bands started, what separated them back then from the other bands back then, that's the definition simply going by logic, if there wouldn't have been that difference we wouldn't talk about these bands now in that genre defining context wouldn't we? Calling them later on proto or even not considering them being in that genre is just stupid. A good example I can make is Possessed, listen to Bonded By Blood for example and then Seven Churches, wow huge difference altogether, bigger difference than some later Death bands have to Seven Churches, so that bigger step of difference early on, THATS the sweet spot in defining things. It's just some sort of egocentric selective revisionist hair splitting movement in metal that is disrespectful to it's own origin.

[@pietrayday9915]

Believe it or not, I've more than once seen people try to make the argument that Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath "aren't metal". Seems like a lot of the younger folks want to scribble any bands that don't have growls and blastbeats off the metal list. At the same time, seems like a few of the older fans (including me) are more than happy to include bands like KISS, Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Blue Oyster Cult, etc. as metal, or at least "proto metal". Anyway, I agree: the older bands are, to me, black metal, and the mass-produced Norwegian stuff is a sub-subgenre of that... black metal has lost a lot of its diversity over the years thanks to a mix of marketing and the subgenre's fans' resistance to evolution and experimentation in more recent years (the whole "tr00 kvlt" attitude that calls anything that strays very far from the basic blueprint "false poseur music" and so on....)

[@JanderVK]

@@pietrayday9915 Yeah, I've seen comments recently from kids saying that the Big Four/Testament/Exodus etc. aren't extreme metal. When it was Thrash & Speed Metal that defined the term extreme metal. More kids may be listening to metal these days, but they don't know shit about the history apparently.

[@Haegi]

Blackgaze episode! Deafheaven, Botanist, Liturgy, Myrkur, Wolves in the throne room, Krallice, Alcest etc...

[@danielvalmonte2873]

If Sarcofago and Mayhem belong as a transitional sound, which in 86/87 they definitely are, then Bathory needs to be there with Under the Sign. That arguably sounds more like the Norwegian scene of the early 90s than Deathcrush does. Really fantastic video by the way. An excellent watch.

[@NunYaBiznesz]

Cradle of Filth will always be a gateway band for young people who are treading the extreme metal waters. That said, I've been a COF fan for twelve years. They were my gateway band.

[@noname-ng6sj]

I don't think you understand how to contstruct a sentence. After "that said", you'd say you're NOT a fan or something. Saying a statement, then going "that said", confirming it 100% showing that you have no understanding about anything outside of your own statement is braindead as fuck.

[@emanoelsobrinho453]

SARCÓFAGO?

[@PRHILL9696]

who

[@omerusmortem8714]

@@PRHILL9696 you must live under a rock.

[@PRHILL9696]

@@omerusmortem8714 sure what ever

[@heavymetal1330]

PRHILL9696 who? You should study more about black metal... real black metal...

[@fabioduarte872]

@@PRHILL9696 poser...hahahaha

[@Withinthemind13]

Does it bother anyone else that he didn't have a pre made Burzum sticker? Did they not think that people would bring up Burzum?

[@LuciferRising6]

Can anyone here tell me the Song/Band that plays during the clip for A Headbanger's Journey? I've been obsessed with that song since I saw the movie years ago, but never found out who it was.

[@rtysinger1987]

No mention of Sigh? They pushed the avant-garde aspect of black metal and were on Deathlike Silence during the formularies years of the second wave

[@xMIRAKx]

LOL Metalheads discusing genres and is like watching Biologists discuss systemics and taxonomy. Love the term Proto-Black Metal. Hope the term catches on.

[@tomspencer7307]

Huayu Ke Must have I've only just seen this video but I've been describing 1st wave BM bands as Proto for ages. I wouldn't describe 2nd wave as Proto though. Mayhem for example are in my opinion the definition of BM, not proto.

[@petermaldonado6611]

I get proto black metal vibes from Possessed but I understand they are commonly labeled thrash, it's just that at moments in seven churches and beyond the gates I hear things that sound related almost.

[@jameswest8241]

I do like these videos and debates, but damn ten thousand categories of metal, it's all just metal and good music in the end man!

[@IdentifiantDeCatacombe]

Jason has a nice voice!

[@jamesoncroft2980]

How the fuck is Bathory not black metal?

[@Morbidous]

They definetely are, with the exception of their debut album that is closer to Thrash.

[@RickGibbonsOfficial]

The Return and Under The Sign Of The Black Mark are certainly black metal albums, I'd say.

[@amixofeverything]

And Quorthon's later works...which are more Viking Metal and Celtic Frost sounding death metal.

[@Offdutysailor]

I'd consider Bathory's earlier albums to be Thrash Metal with some elements of Speed Metal. Quorthon's shrieking vocals are certainly closer to black metal and Bathory in my opinion had the biggest impact on the emergence of the Black Metal scene in the 90s but they were never a black metal band.

[@amixofeverything]

Bathory's third album is, without a doubt, the first full on Black Metal album. It has the BM vocals, blast beats, and Satanic AF.

[@MrDoomGuy93]

28:53 Along with Sarcofago and Mayhem, I think some other bands you could add to that "bridge" area of black metal are Von, Blasphemy and Mystifier.

[@RichardWolfe79]

As well as Mortuary Drape and Necrovore.

[@Wovn]

Bodycount is my fave black metal band.

[@tomtomthebear]

Burzum needs to be on the list...!!!!! Varg is the essence of black metal....!!!!!

[@h8ed121]

Yes this!!

[@PRHILL9696]

they are not black

[@majorbuzzard]

The use of minor key signatures to me is essential to black metal.

[@pauloblack5225]

Don't forget Mayhem was highly influenced by Colombian extreme metal acts like Parabellum or Reencarnación... Other bands that can be labeled as early black metal are: Mystifier, Dorsal Atlantica, Necrodeath, Mortuary Drape, Blasphemy, Von, Tormentor, Master's Hammer, Sarcófago, Early Sodom, Early Sepultura, just to mention a few.

[@MGBlast669]

5:47 is an awesome point!

[@keldon5831]

Can’t mention burzum in Canada, it’s practically illegal lmao

[@jameswest8241]

Mercyful Fate/King Diamond was burning crosses, had the corpse paint, pentagrams, and Satanic lyrics from their beginnings, they along with Venom started it all in my opinion. then Slayer came along with Reign in Blood and kicked everybody's ass! lol

[@MrCapone1996]

James West Kreator briefly appeared

[@TheVelazquez95]

Damn I barley missed the live...

[@ModernDayWarrior2112]

Negură Bunget , amazing Black Metal band from Romania. Check out their album OM. Amazing atmospheric.

[@Doomreb]

Jason acts like he never heard of the first two albums of Sodom. Especially when he said "only war". I know what he's thinking, he's agent orange and ausgubombt on his mind but he's forgetting in the sign of evil. those days.

[@Diabo4809]

Yhap exactly! They are forgeting the first 2 cult primitive albuns that sodom made

[@VinylDistortion]

Leviathan, Drowning The Light, Rotting Christ, Ulver, Shining, Lifelover, Behemoth, Inquisition!

[@TheGrav666]

A bunch of those could certainly fit under a Depressive/Suicidal black metal branch :-)

[@leonrisek6258]

+Jason D only Shining and Lifelover out of these can be considered as depressive black metal ...

[@MMasterDE]

Considering I think most of the early 2nd wave BM wasn't inspired by Venom, I think we definitely would have had it either way.

[@darkagecult]

Before Burzum the music was still theater. After 1991-92 black metal became something radical and dangerous because of the influence Varg Vikernes held and a point is Mayhem before (Deathcrush a poor album) Vikernes and after (De Mysteriis..the best!) The drama of the murder put to the side, Vikernes brought this eerie new sound that was like no other band at that time and the scene was threatening. If you were around the underground in the early 90's you know what I am saying. Burzum came on like a storm..so many great albums in a very short time. It is hilarious to me, even today Burzum is still so dangerous and real, folks still hesitate.

[@jayjaytee9944]

Sadistik Exekution from Australia

[@TheGrav666]

Fucking right. Another board for another time!

[@adammurnane2400]

Old man's child as well

[@Avertia]

Awesome Jason!

[@manuelhernandez87]

How did you not have a magnet ready for Burzum, had to use the sharpie.

[@zeushgoatc7004]

morbid n dead, thorns demo was the blueprint. Abigor needs to be on list and mystfier

[@TheGrav666]

+zeus hgoat c Euronymous and Snorre Ruch were certainly the architects of the open-string, non-palm muted sound that eventually became the black metal blueprint. Without that innovation, perhaps black metal would not have developed into what we know it today.

[@zeushgoatc7004]

He was definitely one of the most influential, as when he came back to the fold and evolving into industrialised black metal, satyricon completly changed their sound

[@addisonlewis723]

I agree. It was the blueprint for the second wave.