Ebay 🤝🏼 HMRC - How are us gear nerds affected?

[@dougtolley]

This is well worth reporting on Phil and it's certainly something I am going to take into account. I'm self employed, but still don't want to hassle of having to put my pedal purchases/sales through my accounts! I did think of having a pedal swap as part of the Witney Pedal Party. ABL's one went really well.

[@PedalExperiments]

Thanks, Doug! I kept hearing different people talking about this, so figured it would be worth talking about. A pedal swap would be a great thing to add to the Pedal Party! That needs to happen. 👍🏼

[@Tree_Strings]

Count me in . Great idea.

[@dougtolley]

​@@PedalExperimentsthe pedal swap probably won't happen at the one in May, I've got too much going on that day. But it's a no brainer for the future.

[@MrMissingReel]

Same shit here in Germany..."you will own nothing, but you will be happy"

[@mikegutterman3427]

In the USA it is now a mere $600 of sales before you have to report it to the government as income. Doesn't even matter if you lost money on the items from what I have read. We shall see when I file last year's taxes in a couple of months, I had like $1000 in Reverb sales.

[@illegal_space_alien]

If they want to see it reported, then it will fall under business taxation. And I will also be submitting my losses for said items, which were more than any income received.

[@PedalExperiments]

That's shocking. 😒

[@heroinwaltz5267]

One thing to consider when working out if you have to complete self assesment is it you sold multiple units of the same item. Apparently even couple pieces of the same SKU sold might result in being classified as trader.

[@ks-hg5vo]

Tax on second hand equipment is just wrong

[@andyphillips7437]

It is tax on profit, not on the second hand item.

[@mattayers3794]

​@@andyphillips7437 If "profit" is the main argument of your reply then by that reasoning how much profit have you made from the sale of a used item? Also by that reasoning should sellers in that region be able to calculate taxes according to money spent compared to money made on the item? Perhaps even calculate a loss of revenue to offset taxes. This is not an attack on your comment but something I feel that should be presented in the conversation on taxation on items that have already in reality been taxed sometimes several times during the initial purchase.

[@Sasahara-Lafiel]

@@mattayers3794 The tax would be due in profit on each individual item, buy something at £20, sell if for £30. The £10 will be subject to tax. But you can make £1000 profit a finical year (trading allowance) before you need to start paying tax. You can off set losses as business expenses, but you won't get the £1000 trading allowance, it's one or the other. So you'd have to work out which option is the cheapest. The main thing is to keep records if you do a lot of trading so you can prove you don't need to pay any tax if it isn't due.

[@ks-hg5vo]

@@andyphillips7437 ok not profit from sale of second hand items then?

[@stewartmacdonald601]

@@mattayers3794 That is exactly correct.

[@Tree_Strings]

Brilliant idea. I'm Oxfordshire so happy to help with any event you put on. I remember seeing you at the Witney pedal party so I'm guessing your not too far away too.

[@michelvondenhoff9673]

I think meeting ppl is they way to go. It gets you inspired as you may bump into a pedal or what ever you weren't thinking about. Swapping gear no profits envolved just moving on and having a cup of tea or coffee 😊

[@PedalExperiments]

I agree. Let's make it happen!

[@evilutionltd]

If you are selling stuff to make a living, yeah, you should pay income tax. If you are just getting rid of all of your old stuff, you don't. Maybe it's time to make our own UK only version of Reverb.

[@retrotechguardian4393]

If you buy anything to sell on, then HMRC will require you to register with them as a business. If you are selling items from your collection then HMRC will want to see original purchase receipts for the items you're selling if you exceed the threshold. But be careful, if you sell an item, then buy the same item again in the future, HMRC will assume you sold an item to make a profit.

[@CB-DW]

No tax rules have changed, this is purely about people using digital platforms as ‘traders’. Tax will only be liable on Profits, not total sales made. I have a neighbour who rents out a room on AirBNB for £70 a night, and he averages 3 nights rental a week (£11k a year). He proudly told me last year he doesn’t report it to HMRC, these are the guys that this new rule is to catch not people selling personal effects at a loss.

[@CrazedFandango]

I think most have missed the point that it's profit. If I buy a new pedal and sell it at a loss, it's not counted.

[@PedalExperiments]

Maybe so, but it's the sales that will make them look closer at your account and decide whether to issue a letter to you. Then it'll be up to you to demonstrate what your profits are.

[@CB-DW]

@@PedalExperiments no problem with that. If you know what the thresholds are for digital platforms to report activity then people need to keep records. Easy enough

[@PedalExperiments]

That's fine. But not everyone wants to deal with the extra hassle. Life is stressful enough, after all! 😄

[@thomask1uk]

It’s a storm in a tea cup, they’re just reviewing to see if people are using eBay to run a business, make a profit and not pay taxes on those profits - fair game in my view. If you are buying pedals and selling them on for a profit, then you need to pay tax on that profit, if you’re just buying and selling pedals for a hobby, and often you’re selling those at a loss, you have no issue. If HMRC start talking about you being a business, well then you can follow up and start including the costs of running that business - home office, packaging, internet connection etc etc.

[@GastMusike]

I heard about this and thought the same, I am in the same boat. The problem is that ebay will send the data and HMRC has software that will very easily scan that data and may send automatic letters of action. If we are required to prove we are not traders or are obliged to pay the tax if we can not provide accounts that sucks massively. It all depends how it works out.

[@PedalExperiments]

Yeah, it's gotten a lot of people pretty stressed out! Apparently they're only trying to clamp down on people running actual businesses from private accounts, not genuine private sellers. But still, it makes you wonder how they'll ascertain who is selling stuff as a side-hustle and who is just selling things that they no longer want.

[@GastMusike]

Yeah, I fear the burden of proof might be on us! @@PedalExperiments

[@DavidHeywood_Legend]

Ebay is a ripoff anyway, what with their charges and Paypal charges you're left with f-all, goodbye eBay

[@brazilianmegaman258]

I love how we're supposed to have a Conservative government but they're going on socialist tier tax raids. Either way, these pedal and gear trade events sound great. I would suggest Stoke as a possible city to host one of these events as there's plenty of pubs with cheap or free function rooms, it's located close to Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Nottingham and there's plenty of musicians around with it being a student city.

[@PedalExperiments]

Stoke is a great shout! I used to go there all the time. And Newcastle Under Lyme! Do you live round there?

[@brazilianmegaman258]

@@PedalExperiments I do! I've got a studio here so I know a lot of gear nerds as well that I could drag along with me.

[@PedalExperiments]

@brazilianmegaman258 Awesome! Drop me a message on Instagram and we'll try and arrange something!

[@brazilianmegaman258]

@@PedalExperiments wicked, what's your gram handle?

[@DaveSHarris]

Feels like it’s just another way the HMRC are going to be seeking out the under the radar businesses. It has to be based on profits so if you bought a pedal for £200 and sold it for £220, there’s £20 profit there. But there are thresholds of £1000 (personal earnings from self employment second job eg. You mow a neighbour’s lawn once a week for £10) and £3000 (from April) capital gains. Filling in a self assessment doesn’t mean you have to pay tax and it’s worth noting that it is a way of claiming back tax too particularly if you are lucky enough to be a 40% tax payer (for instance charity donations will reduce your tax liability)

[@doogee6157]

Does EBAY pay any tax in the UK? More overreach from this tyrannical gov.

[@Neilybob100]

It's hard in this situation but I do like the idea of a pedal swap party.

[@PedalExperiments]

Cool! Hopefully, we'll be able to get something like that arranged...

[@someblokeontheinternet]

If what you are doing is not a business (ie buying and selling for profit), and does not look like a business, and you could defend your position that you are not running a business, I don't think you have anything to worry about. If you are a business, then you can offset costs and expenses against your income - so tax would only be due on profit you make.

[@mezzoca8110]

It not just pedals that could be hit by this… for example a Gibson les Paul could easily be subject to in one listing. They range from £2000 to £400,000.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

High value items, even as a 1-off, could come under capital gains, which have a higher ( though decreasing) tax-free allowance

[@stewartmacdonald601]

Some class misinformation there. What you really should be aware of is that any profits over £1000 need to be notified to HMRC. So in your case, you should really keep a note of the price you buy the items for, and what you sell them for. If, over the course of the year, you make more than £1000 of profit, then you may be liable to pay tax on it. Regardless of whether you are private or bussiness seller. Everyone has to pay tax on earnings / profits afterall. For most gear heads, it really wont matter, other than if you are particularly active in buying and selling, you aren't likely to be making much profit here at all. Mostly I'd expect people to be making losses when buying and selling gear. So basically, so long as you keep evidence of purchase price, as well as selling price, and the difference overall does not exceed £1000 per year, you will be fine. If the time between purchase and sale is sufficiently long, it can be argued that the purchase was not for reselling, and so for personal use, and then I do not think you are liable for taxes on that, but I could be incorrect there too. But basically, if you are such a prolific seller, such as yourself, I'd really expect you to keep records of purchase prices as well as sale prices anyway so you can track how much your hobby is truely costing you. And don't foget, if you do have the occasional big win where you do actually make reasonable money on an item, you can offset that against some of the losses you have made on other items. So it's the overall total for the year. I suspect there will be few gearheads making enough money to pay taxes on this stuff. If they are lucky enough to be making over £1,000 profit on their gear addiction, then well done, but be prepared to pay a bit of tax on it.

[@Sasahara-Lafiel]

It's pretty simple really, as a private seller if you are making over £1000 profit a you should be doing a self assessment and paying tax on any profits. If you making a loss you may still have to do an assessment if your selling a lot, but if you can show your not making a profit (or less than £1000) there will be nothing to pay.

[@theoriginalbuttonbasher2601]

So when does this take effect ? Is it based on sales from Jan 1st 24 ?

[@PedalExperiments]

Correct. All sales on ebay start counting towards the 30 listing / £1,770 limit, as of 1st of January.

[@theoriginalbuttonbasher2601]

@@PedalExperiments 😬 thanks for the info

[@MrZOMBIE170]

the personal trading allowance is £1000 you can make £1000 before you have to declare anything

[@PedalExperiments]

Correct. A lot of people are pointing this out, but that's not what I was saying in this video. Once you make over £1,770 in SALES, you'll get your info handed over to HMRC, who will then look at your activity and assess whether they need to get in touch. If they do, you'll then need to prove that you haven't made more than £1,000 in PROFITS. Hope that clears things up. 👍🏼

[@stuartchapman5171]

FFS, I had a little side hustle going on one year building. I had to shift a load of old gear that year, to cover real life costs, I would have come unstuck. It wasn't really enough to bother with a self-assessment form. I really struggle with this sort of thing. I know it sounds dramatic, but it's painful. I have a load of stuff to shift this year as well. Maybe spread them across platforms. The increased capacity of IT to store and process info, this brave new world always seems to go quite well to start with. Sooner or later it gets hijacked for banality or comes under over zealous scrutiny by the state.

[@Lil_mabel]

To run a self employed business through hmrc, unless it's changed you have to expect to turn a profit at some point otherwise it's a loophole you can use to your advantage to offset against other earnings. Odds are your spending more on gear than you get back so should be fine. I imagine even if hrmc get in touch a phone call would resolve it

[@Lil_mabel]

@@lentner3 I've run a self employed cash based business for over 20 years including side hustles which included the buying and selling of items that all got out through my books as a separate means of income and most years were at a loss which got offset against my main earnings. I never have had any questions or grief off the hmrc so I don't foresee them chasing up such small stuff tbh

[@raalaa121]

This is going to make thrift stores richer, the likes of Cashconverters, CeX, MPB etc ... everyones going to sell to them to get rid without a digital footprint of how much they have sold. The £1,700 is ridiculous. I have lots of individual electronics worth more than that. My camera for example. I guess making properly registered businesses thrive is the goal of the government here.

[@Chris7uk00]

Where did you hear this?, The VAT threshold still applies to businesses who are selling second-hand goods. You must register for VAT if your business VAT taxable turnover exceeds the £85,000 threshold. This applies whether you are selling through eBay, in-store, or on your own eCommerce platform. VAT taxable turnover is the total value of everything sold (including delivery costs), excluding items which are VAT exempt. So where did you get this information from?

[@wayneh150]

Was there a qty of a few thousand you can class as a hobby?

[@robinholmes822]

I would expect in your case you will be breaking even at best if you already purchased the pedal

[@chrismainia]

Hope the post office computer system isn't being used otherwise you are all getting life in prison!!

[@PedalExperiments]

😄

[@mezzoca8110]

I think if sent one these forms you list your sales as bought pedal for £625 and sold it for £425 and similar with most of them and then put in for an income tax rebate.

[@historex54tamiya]

You cannot get a rebate if you haven’t paid the tax, and over a £1000 you pay tax for the following year in advance!

[@bobbycorridor6038]

⁠@@historex54tamiyayou could carry forward the loss to the next tax year

[@vxidastronaut]

USA got hit with this as well, the pelosi 600 venmo nuke

[@PedalExperiments]

Sad times. 😔 This is why we can't have nice things...

[@shaunmacey6137]

'Earnings' from eBay sales doesn't always mean 'profit' though does it? We invariably buy stuff with our wages (which have been taxed) and often flip gear at a substantial loss when we then sell it second hand as 'hobbyists'... I sell quite a bit of personally bought/used gear on eBay and have made a resounding net loss! I don't even gig to make any income using the equipment!

[@PedalExperiments]

Correct. This is why I'm irritated by it all, as most of the pedals I sell are ones that I only bought a few weeks prior. Profits would be the fair thing to report us for, but nope! It's total sales.

[@stewartmacdonald601]

@@PedalExperiments How could ebay report profits if it doesn't know how much you bought the items for? They may only know the total sales amount. Ebay aren't your accountants. If you bought the items on ebay, it should be relativley easy then for you to access the paid price for the items to assess any profits, or losses you might have made.

[@PedalExperiments]

Ebay can't report profits, you're right. They only report your sales/earnings once you go over the 30 listings/£1,770 sales threshold. After that, HMRC will look at your selling activity to determine if you're trading as a side-hustle, or just selling random stuff. If they decide to send you a letter requesting a self-assessment, the onus will then be on you to show if there are any profits over £1,000. It's just a gigantic faff that most of us don't want to have to deal with, or have hanging over our heads.

[@stewartmacdonald601]

@@PedalExperiments Is it though? Do you have no idea how much your hobby is costing you? Is it that hard to put together an excel sheet with purchase price and sale price of your items? Do you not keep receipts at all? I would say it's less faff keeping decent records than it is posting multiple listings. Sure, it's not as "exotic" as maybe making some money back on ebay. But maybe it's more exotic to tell HMRC to do one as you can prove less than £1000 profit with a simple spreadsheet.

[@PedalExperiments]

Yes. No. Yes. And no. 😂

[@ThorWithHammer68]

Facebook marked exploded ..but

[@Farold_Haltermeyer]

Gumtree won’t be reporting earnings

[@PedalExperiments]

Good to know!

[@chipbuttytime3396]

Yes they are, there is an article on Accountancy Daily which includes this ' The owners of websites such as Etsy, eBay, Vinted, Amazon Seller Central, Gumtree and Airbnb have until January 2025 to report sellers' information for tax purposes to 'bear down on tax evasion'.2 Jan 2024

[@Farold_Haltermeyer]

​@@chipbuttytime3396 works differently though as the platform doesn't process or manage transaction recording currently, it's up to the user to report a sale or purchase

[@mikeselectricstuff]

If you're buying and selling a lot, and making a profit, regardless of venue, then it's a business and you need to be registered as self-employed. at the very least you should keep records so you know if you're making a profit, and prove if you're not

[@PedalExperiments]

I definitely will be from now on!

[@Laser2120]

There's nothing to worry about unless you are avoiding paying tax

[@chunkymonkey55555]

If this is your only income, sounds like you are talking about £9000 roughly a year? This is under your tax threshold, but they will make you pay NI on that (I think). This is the new thing, they trying to tighten it all up and stop people from having side hustles. Why? Because they are evil and wish to dominate your life, :) I remember the days when if you had said that people thought you were mad lol

[@GastMusike]

Just another thought. If you are given pedals to demo and then sell them I think 100% of that sale will be taxable. That has always been the rule, as far as I know. I am not an accountant by a long stretch, I was self employed for a while, that could well be incorrect. There are no new laws here as far as I can see. Given that you have a KZbin channel and companies send pedals to you for free, you are a special case and will likely be more of a target. You may also have been avoiding tax unknowingly. I would look into it quite deeply if I were you.

[@PedalExperiments]

Very good point. I've definitely been wondering about that, too. Although I generally don't tend to sell the pedals I get for free. Most of what I sell is stuff I bought myself.

[@GastMusike]

To be fair the losses you make on the bought pedals probably make you a negative profit "business" despite that! Maybe we should all register as businesses, avoid paying VAT on new purchases and make a smaller loss/break even at the end of the tax year! We would all be better off. Not sure it works like that though.@@PedalExperiments

[@NightOwlGames]

sounds like when you hit the limit you get blocked from selling anything else.

[@PedalExperiments]

I don't think so. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere, anyway.

[@davidbourgoin523]

No you don't

[@PhilWare1]

The law hasn't changed. If you make a profit selling items it needs to be declared as income, otherwise you don't. The only people affected are the ones avoiding paying income tax. Simple

[@savoirfaire8979]

The British economy sucks after BREXIT. Y’all got what you wanted and will suffer a stagnant economy for a significant time.

[@BulletsForTeeth5029]

As an American... Taxation is Theft. If I was in your situation I would write the HMRC and ask for clarification in writing.

[@BulletsForTeeth5029]

@FunkyMonk6 Well, think of it this way.... Whether they reply or not can help you if they come at you. You can argue they never replied to you with satisfactory information for instance. I'm not handing out legal advice, but I do know to only deal with public servants in writing. They also have to file everything as well, just be sure you request that the letters you send be added to your files. That will piss them off! 😂

[@BulletsForTeeth5029]

@FunkyMonk6 TAXATION IS THEFT! 😉

[@donaldmaxwell3428]

nobody likes paying taxes ???

[@TheBioniXman]

I got bored after 2 minutes. I don't see the problem, if you sell stuff then you should pay tax. If you are selling lots of stuff then it is commercial so you should pay tax. If you are selling a one off item that you have owned as an individual, to a mate, then it will not affect you.

[@OfWodensFolk]

HMRC has already bloody received TAX for those items. They piss away our money on wars and stupid schemes on a daily basis so why the hell should they receive tax again on that item?!

[@historex54tamiya]

I don’t see the problem, if you are making a profit then pay tax, it is no different to people who pay tax PAYE. Even the old lady running a cake stand and breaking even should complete a tax return, we all know that many use these platforms to run a side business but don’t declare it, it puts a bad taste into those of us that run legitimate businesses online and pay an accountant and tax!