Echo 58 Volt Lawnmower Battery No charge. Is this one FUBAR?

Don't ya hate it when a 200.00 battery goes south for the winter and doesn't come back.
Lets fix this dead battery.

[@jameskrivitsky9715]

What a coincidence, I just worked on an 80 volt KOBALT line trimmer battery / charger which would only flash red when the battery was put on the charger. The battery was down to 54 volts and the charger would not "recognize" the brick. I had no means of applying 80 volts to the terminals even with a bench power supply which has 3 outputs ( two at 30 volts and one 5 volts ). So I removed the case, measured the 4 groups of 6 batteries in series/parallel and found one 6 pack was 2.5 volts per cell. I located the pos/ negative links, applied approx. 24 volts to the low group only for a few minutes and then brought the overall voltage to about 60 volts. That satisfied the charger which then recognized the battery and proceeded to bring the pack up to full 80 volt complete charge. The woman who neglected the trimmer is now happy that she will not need to fork over mucho BUCKS for a new pack. Between your video and my bench experiment, I am more educated on what to do....and what NOT TO DO on the modern battery systems. BIG THANKS Dave your Houston Harley subscriber. JwgK

[@Calcraft11]

What can't you fix? Amazing work as usual!

[@12voltvids]

There is plenty i can't or choose not to fix.

[@ford1546]

safety screws are just nonsense to use. for approx. 20 years ago I bought a whole set of bits including all kinds of security bits.

[@kyoudaiken]

I just have my iFixit toolkits with lots of bits. Even more exotic ones like Pentablobe bits.

[@MrChrisRP]

I just replaced the drain pump on my dishwasher. GE complete stainless model, less than 2 years old. No obstructions in the motor, and to the naked eye, it was in perfect shape. Electrically, not so much perfect shape. It is supposed to be 40 ohms. It reads out as open. heh but it is nice to have the unit working again, well.

[@kyoudaiken]

Sounds like a power surge popped an internal fuse. Or an internal thermal fuse popped before it was too late. Does it get excessively hot in Summer like in Germany in your place?

[@MrChrisRP]

@@kyoudaiken No, I don't think it was from the environment, as it was in optimal range almost, if not, always. I have been meaning to pull it apart to inspect it, just because, but as it is, the impeller spins freely and well. I was unaware there was a fuse in the unit. There may not be still, but I hadn't considered it yet. When I pull it apart, I will tell what I find.

[@markmarkofkane8167]

Interesting enough. But what if you replace the bad cells, then more go bad? Replace those too? Just curious. Great video!

[@brianperkins6121]

Some manufacturers today are putting custom chips with embedded nonvolatile memory in there battery management controllers. if they detect a bad cell they write a defect bit onto the custom chip , you can replace the bad cell with a perfect replacement and the Battery management hardware will still refuse to enable the pack . the custom chip on the BMS has serial encryption and only the manufacturers software can reset it ,, there are even a few manufacturers out there that use copyrighted sertal protection so if you unplug the BMS to replace a cell the devices hardware will lock out functionality until they reset the device ,, the proprietary software they use establishes a encrypted dialog with the device and "approves" the repair or the device won't function.. many Laptop batteries for example keep track of cell cycle count and when they reach a certain threshold will label the battery as at "end of life" and disable it. you can replace the cells but unless you have the software to reset the BMS it will still refuse charging.. my only concern is that the Battery management hardware on the Echo battery pack in evaluating the packs cell health over time may have automatically reduced the packs maximum charge capacity in mAh as it ages. with the right hardware you can rewrite the Max capacity to represent the new cell or cells in a laptop battery pack , I don't know how one would do this in a Echo battery pack if it contains that info on a chip on the BMS board.. an example of what I am talking about with a laptop battery BMS. . kzbin.info/www/bejne/foWqYmZrobmohsk

[@jed2055]

I agree with you and the examples you give are all about not allowing third parties to fix their stuff so they have to go back to the factory. I am guessing this battery pack bms does not have those smarts (although very well built. As these packs are so expensive I am also going to guess that Echo will put that "feature" in their expensive packs sooner rather than later.

[@electronicartis]

This Battery Pack has the ability to extend the capacity range.

[@kevtris]

it's interesting that half the pack is empty. I guess they sell a pack with twice the capacity and just parallel them in sets of two and put those sets in series. The charging/monitor/balancing would be exactly the same. clever. Also, it's pretty amazing that basically 14 AA cells (yeah they are a bit bigger than a true AA cell) can power a lawn mower!

[@12voltvids]

Yes that would be how they do it, would be double capacity. Only question is how it will operate. Will likely require a few cycles to get the cell balance. What i don't know is if the battery has stored a "failed" code to prevent a full charge. Like the printer cartridges. You can refill but if chip says empty the printer won't print. I guess I will find out once the battery goes on the equipment.

[@SeanBZA]

Yes likely they sell a high capacity pack like that, at probably triple the price as well. Probably only available as add on after sale, with the low capacity one being the one coming with the mower, cheap as they cam make them.

[@kevtris]

@@12voltvids yeah that's a good question, I am always worried about anything with battery packs pulling that stunt, preventing you repairing them. None of them seem to have standard balancing parts any more so they could be doing anything in the microcontroller. If it charges after replacing the cell I would suspect that it's probably going to work, at least for awhile. If it wasn't going to take it, it'd probably flash an error pretty quickly after plugging it in.

[@jacquesm40017]

@@SeanBZA keep cool : 58v is 14*3.8v, you need 14 cells more to get double ah. but get only 7 empty spaces

[@SeanBZA]

@@jacquesm40017 2 rows of 7 cells are empty, you just have to double up the cells, and use a slightly different flex PCB to connect the sense and balancing system to it.

[@kyoudaiken]

Is it really a good idea to just throw in a random 18650 cell? It should be one with same chemistry. There are different Li-Ion cells. Those are also probably optimized for high current as well, not all cells are.

[@GGigabiteM]

No, it is not a good idea to put random cells in the same pack together, but it's not the chemistry you worry about; They're all the same chemistry. What you have to worry about is if the cells are matched in capacity, wear level and voltage. The cell he used as a replacement (LGAAS31865) is rated for 2200 mAh, while the existing cells (LGAHD41865) are only rated at 2000 mAh. It is also not known how many charge/discharge cycles the batteries have been through because the replacement cell was clearly pulled from something else, most likely a laptop battery pack. And yes, for high current applications, there are specialized lithium cells designed for that. If you use a regular low-drain lithium cell in a high-drain application, the cell will quickly overheat and possibly vent and/or go on fire. This repair is no more than a band-aid, the pack will fail again sooner than later from the wrong cell being used. Since it will drain at a slower rate than the other cells, it will increase the likelihood that other cells in the pack that drop out first being reverse charged and damage them. At least the pack is easy to service. I've never come across a lithium battery pack like that where the cells could be easily replaced by removing the bus bars and the spacers. They're usually glued together and glued into the shell, making it a chore to get apart.

[@kyoudaiken]

@@GGigabiteM That's what I was thinking. The balancer can only do so much. Also I consider different cathode and anode materials as different chemistry as well. And this is what gives you better capacity or trade in some capacity for higher discharge rates.

[@jed2055]

@@GGigabiteM I think this is a good bms as it senses each battery; not all of 'em do that. Still it's not as smart as some so fixer jagged a pack designed to save money but easier to fix. I'm sure it's not the chemistry that is important, after all they are all lithium based. I read that somewhere and it was explained that it's the internal resistance. Different makes and model 18650s have different resistance and the bms can't know that which is super important when cheaper battery packs group and sense batteries together and you're swapping out a battery. The owner of htis mower will now a) not leave this in the charger overly long and b) be happy enough replacing this one should he or she get a decent extended time from this one, which is on the cards. Different capacity 2200mah vs 2000mah shouldn't matter and only 200mA. Remember the bms reads the voltage not the capacity and as every battery is being "sensed" it will cut off the lower cap battery at the correct time. It's all about the resistance with cheaper bms units that group pairs of batteries so both need to be same resistance when new (both changing more or less in sync over time). Personally I hate working with Lithium packs they scare me (we have several hoverboards) that need constant attention. I'm always super safe. Last coupla things: this pack is really expensive over here in Oz but it seems easy to get to all the parts. Nice to know as brothers mate is sending me one to look at, hence me watching this video.

[@stevetreiber9162]

Just replaced all 14 cells with 2200's of mine ( That I know of the old cells are old school and do not make them anymore to my knowledge) it's cheaper than replacing a couple and a month or 2 later the battery going down again!

[@stevetreiber9162]

​@@jed2055 Keep in mind on this particular battery style they were cheap and did not put on the controller a sensor that would shut it down when there was too much voltage or when there was too little voltage they use the tool itself for when it is too little voltage to shut it off and the battery charger to shut it off when it is too high which to me is just crazy however they do have a spot on the board to add 1 but they just didn't I don't know why

[@OlivierLopezCh]

Strange, first time I see a 18650 be fully open. Normally when that happens the cell goes on fire because it means its short-circuited.

[@12voltvids]

Cells have internal protection. A mosfet that is normally on. Under a fault condition such as over discharge where the cell drops below the minimum voltage, or over charge condition where the cell is seriously overcharged (or overheated) the MOSFET is turned off. Now the cell is disconnected from the outside world. Its dead Jim, it will never work again unless you are dumb enough to open the top of the cell and tickle the gate of the mosfet to turn it back on. Think of it as a one shot electronic fuse that will blow is over voltage, under voltage or over temperature.

[@gtrmain]

What size Torx? Thanks for the video.

[@hammershark23]

I'm having the same issue. Read light blinking on the charger. I checked the output voltage on the charger and it was only 4.5 volts. My battery is also sitting at 4.5 volts. Is my charger bad and is there a way to fix it?

[@Daveyk021]

Wow, great job!

[@GerardPinzone]

The crime is that they made this unserviceable.

[@kyoudaiken]

Doesn't look unserviceable to me.

[@CrashPilot1000]

Great! BTW I guess the Battery on my E-Bike will be more bitchy once the controller decides on the recharge-cycle number that it is "bad" with all cells intact.

[@12voltvids]

Well that is the unknown. The battery has logic onboard, and it communicates with the charger and the lawnmower. When there is a bad cell detected, does it write something to the NVRAM that shuts it down. Thats why I said time will tell, because I don't have the equipment just the charger. It went into charge for awhile. I'll give it back and get him to try it. If it doesn't work, then I guess he is off to spend 200.00 for a new one. I just bought a 48v cordless mower, I got it from Canadian Tire and it has a 5 year exchange warranty for any failure. So for 5 years I don't need to worry. If it breaks they give me a new one. Now that's the type of warranty I like. My battery is bigger, 48v but 5AH as opposed to 2 on this one. Has vents on the battery, and is forced air cooled.

[@Capturing-Memories]

I wonder if you could add more cells in parallel for more capacity.

[@MrChrisRP]

I think it would likely work, but it does highly depend on the circuitry of the charge balancer parts and design. In ny guesses, it was probably designed in such a way that it sees and knows volts, and simply reacts accordingly, so... probably! But even in this scenario, it would only make sense if you could double every cell so there are no weak points to the redundancy. As for fail-proofing aspect of it, then sure, it would make sense even with 1 additional cell, as if a mate went open, the other would keep the flame alive. heh

[@GGigabiteM]

There aren't enough spaces for an extra group of batteries. You'd need 14, and there are only 12 unpopulated spots.

[@SeanBZA]

EV battery will have a few cells in parallel, so a failed cell within it will just drop capacity of that part, and then the controller will reduce total available capacity by a chunk, telling you that a cell has faile,, either open, or short and blown the internal fuse.

[@kyoudaiken]

The ballancer does not reduce the overall capacity, it will just notice this parallel cell array is at a lower voltage than the others and if the lower bound cutoff voltage is reached, it will say it's empty, although the other parallel arrays are fine.

[@joemillner]

Do you repair these for consumer? I have one and I’m trying to find a place to have it repaired ? Thanks!

[@12voltvids]

No. There is a reason. Liability. If the pack burst into flames guess who they would be looking for? Same reason I won't mod anything for anyone. Liability.

[@zx8401ztv]

Well done, i'm sure you fixed it :-D. Laptop batterys are not so easy as the balancing/charging board is too smart and often won't work correctly or at all. I suspect they did it on purpose to stop people replacing the cells.

[@12voltvids]

Don't know if this will last. All depends on the software on the balancing board.

[@SeanBZA]

@@12voltvids Looks like multiple simple 1 cell balancing units there, with a common line feeding the information down that the cells are full, so that the first cell to reach 90% of full signals the charger to switch to low current to allow balancing, waiting for the first cell to signal shut down from high terminal voltage. Looks like lots of DW1 chips there and the mosfets with the other balance chip to shunt excess current away, till all are showing they are bypassing, so it says full.

[@kyoudaiken]

I am more concerned about the chemistry of the cell. If it's not made for high current, it might even be dangerous.

[@12voltvids]

@@kyoudaiken well this battery packs the two amp hour battery pack and it's used on a weed eater which is not something that's going to draw a tremendous amount of current.

[@kyoudaiken]

@@12voltvids Ah good to know. So they traded current for voltage in this case. Much more efficient but indeed much more complex for a battery pack.

[@lanelebaron]

Hey I have a 2.0 that will charge but won’t run in any tool. I wonder if some cells are bad too. Also I’d love to be able to use two batteries in my mower at the same time. Wonder how hard it’d be to do that. Both batteries would be in parallel so the amperage could be doubled and the mower might be stronger or just last longer.

[@MartinSBrown-tp9ji]

Any device that depends on a battery, will always present big problems. EV s included.

[@12voltvids]

Well my EV is coming up on 12 years old this August has 185,000 miles on it I just had no issues with the battery yet. I would expect that sometime in the next 4 or 5 years I'll have to put a new battery in it which I'll probably be $8,000 I'm guessing but that'll be the only money I spent on the car since buying a new and the amount of money I saved not having to do routine things like brakes frequent oil changes are the most expensive buying gas has paid for the car completely. The entire cost of the car has been totally recovered and then some. In fact I kept track of how much I saved compared to the old car it replaced 11 years ago and my payback was your 7 years. So for the past 5 years this has been putting money in the bank especially in recent times since gasoline has gone through the roof as far as cost. 11 years ago gas was maybe a buck 20 a liter here and in my old car I was burning about 70 litres a week. Now in my volt which is a plug-in hybrid when the wife drives beyond the battery range she sips a bit of gas but a 30 l tank lasts her 3 months so from 70 l A week down to 10 l a month. In my car which is also a volt I burnt no gas other than four the maintenance mode that runs the engine for about 10 minutes every 3 months or if I go on a road trip then I burn gas. Last year I went through less the one tank for the entire year. I'm on track for this current volt to pay off the previous car did it replace which was a hybrid also in about 7 to 8 years. Now I'm talking total payoff in maintenance savings. People that don't drive electric can't seem to get their head around this, they are in denial. Ask anyone who drives in electric car and they will tell you but then you people with your head in the sand just won't believe us so why bother. We lay out a bit of cash to buy it up front but in the long term that vehicle pays for itself in money that we don't have to spend every week at the gas station and every 3 months at the oil change place. A gas that's now around $2 a liter in my neck of the woods the payoff is even quicker. But some people just don't get it and that's good because all that tax they're paying is helping the economy because I don't have to pay any of that tax. No gas tax on gas you don't buy and even though my home electric charge is higher because I have to charge my car it is approximately 1/5 the cost of paying for gas. My insurance is cheaper too so there you go.

[@kyoudaiken]

It's the same as with LEDs. If you buy bulbs, you're just not well informed. I have 10 LED based tubes in service since 9 years and they are still going strong, without any noticeable degradation in light output. You have to buy the right thing.

[@helicopter7730]

So this is what we call progress, going from petrol driven equipment that can run for extensive time on a tank of fuel and last almost for ever, to these useless highly complex, high voltage expensive batteries that can only operate the equipment for short time, and will develop cell problems 'guaranteed' at some point. So what about the thousands of people that cannot perform these repairs? Spend another $200 and expect to see a repeat of the same issues later on. You were lucky that you have the knowledge to replace the cell, but if it was an issue with the BMS, then just throw the pack away. We are all being fooled that battery power for heavy usage equipment is the way forward, but its not. BTW the most likely cause the cell failed is that 18650 cells are not designed for such heavy discharge currents. And that is the reason they run higher voltages to reduce the current, but in this case clearly not enough. And I noticed empty holes in the assembly, and guessing they simply add more cells in parallel to increase capacity and sell the "optional' pack for twice the price, what a bloody rip off, and what makes matters worse is putting lithium based cells in parallel is never a good idea as they cannot be charged/balanced properly and eventually you end up with a dead cell. They use 18650 cell because they are cheaper than the smallest can of Coke! How do I know this, well I am an electrical design engineer with battery experience going back over 25 years. As I said, we are being forced into this 'Disneyland' fantasy that battery power is the way to go. Either way you look at it, cells will fail, and over time people will end up paying 2 or 3 times the cost of the petrol version. All of this because we dont want the noise, smell and slight inconvenience of the petrol counterpart. Oh did I forget to mention the battery charger failing at some point as well.......!! There goes another $400.

[@12voltvids]

People don't want gas equipment. Besides the noise and the stink there is the polution. The batteries shouldn't fail, but people abuse them. In this case it was left over the winter attached to the charger and the charger was not plugged in. Had it been left plugged in the charger would have cycled onto trickle charge from time to time to maintain. Like it or now the world is going electric. By 2030 you won't be able to buy gas cars in North America.

[@kyoudaiken]

@@12voltvids People like that think that climate catastrophe doesn't exist. I hereby invite Helicopter7 to Germany where we experience severe droughts and intense heat as well as extreme rain and flooding at the same time since 2016. By 2040 I think the world's population will be at least halved due to the consequences petrol and other CO2 and methane spewing devices (and livestock for that matter) have put us in... In the US you don't notice much from climate change. But even Canada was home to the most phenomenal apocalyptic heatwave in the history of mankind in 2020 (or was it 2019)? It's too late. It's good that the industries are shifting, but it's too late. We're in for a very rough future.

[@12voltvids]

@@kyoudaiken it was 2021. Hottest summer on record and the town of lyton burned to the ground. Then the flood of the century last fall. unfortunately I know a few people that have got their head in the sand and they drive big diesel vehicles thinking that their diesels are the cleanest thing since sliced bread

[@kyoudaiken]

@@12voltvids Yeah. But believe me people wake up when they are affected themselves. But then it's too late.

[@davefinstad2979]

If everyone knew how lithium was mined, we wouldn’t use it. It’s a humanitarian disaster.