The Economy of EVE Online (Part 2): The Robot Problem

[@EconomicsExplained]

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[@Snusnu2977]

How to create inflation Ans : teach people what is inflation 😂

[@frankhaugen]

This game has the best community! Even newbies two weeks in to play are doing Ponzi schemes

[@EconomicsExplained]

Haha yes I like to think of it as an outlet for this kind of naughty behaviour. Who knows maybe we stopped the next bernie maddoff because he just decided to play eve instead.

[@Skynightburst]

@@EconomicsExplained Bernie Maddof is a small timer, try the the central banks of the world XD.

[@UltraSuperDuperFreak]

yup is one of the main reason i dont play the game. Being rewarded for being criminal to that high degree ... not fun at all for the victim. Unless you enjoy that type of humilation and pain i guess. The pvp alone is enough human vs human for me, i dont like i must watch ym back entire time aswell for any "friends" No way i would make friends with any over a certain degree. When i know they might steal what i have, if they get access.

[@UltraSuperDuperFreak]

@@EconomicsExplained Or maybe you just started him, now he knows he gets rewarded for being criminal.

[@TheAnon03]

@@UltraSuperDuperFreak The trick is to not fall for the exceedingly obvious scams and to know how to spot a less obvious scam. Lot's of legit investment opportunities out there, lots of people looking for a quick buck and a lot of people who are legit and put in the work but one unlucky gank brings them to ruin anyway. Reputation is everything after a while and sure some people are willing to cash it out eventually but that's a one time payoff.

[@fyukfy2366]

I just realized that "reality offline" is supposed to be real life. I am ashamed

[@EconomicsExplained]

Don’t worry I thought I was being clever but I think it just went over most peoples heads. Oh well is why I don’t do standup

[@SteveConsGaming]

@@EconomicsExplained its ok mate, your point is real :) and as opposite your video standup in being real and straight to the point. keep it up! your one of the best eve online video content/commentary creator around.

[@stevecollins5487]

@@EconomicsExplained would be nice to switch realities though :)

[@guilhermesartorato93]

@@stevecollins5487 Risking being killed in a ship explosion? You know you would no longer be able to "reset" the game, and the pain of being decompressed/barbecued would be farking real, don't you?

[@seand.g423]

@@guilhermesartorato93 I'm sorry, but " _farking_ real?" How much hard lore (as opposed to player-generated "lore") is there, and how deep are you?

[@frozenchozen]

Eve online has both ISK bots (Hunting NPCs for the Isk Bounty) and Asset Bots (Mining Ore / Ice / PI) there were many more bots in Null blowing up NPCs rather than Mining but that's not to say there is not a huge Mining Bot problem too. That's probably why we haven't gotten the super run away inflation (20+%), because there was an army of bots also creating the materials to help off set the staggering amount of ISK coming in via bounties.

[@moistjohn]

mine botting dropped a lot with the rorq nerd though we almost need to see a nerf bounty rewards due to the sheer quantity of bot ratters the chinese migration brought. Russians were bad but now it's gotten ridiculous. Fun to farm kills off them I guess and ccp is trying to make ratting less safe in general with no local in null (should have been done years ago)

[@toddkes5890]

What if you had to have a certain reputation/investment to get full value for bounties? I.e. if you have been playing for 5 years, that is treated as 5 years of good behavior. If you have just started, that is treated as zero. Each time you are caught botting, they take away 3 months of good behavior (or half your good behavior time, whichever is higher). A beginner player has zero time, so they have to buy good behavior, aka 3 months of EVE subscription (paid up front). If the new guy gets caught botting, they lose the three months of subscription, and only get ~1/4 bounty for killing NPCs (or whatever value is not enough to break even shooting them). If the long-term player gets caught botting, they are now treated as having 2.5 years of good behavior. This would be a form of punishment from the game owners, penalizing people who misbehave. If you want to bot bounty kill, you need 3 months paid subscription before it is worth your time. Get caught once, and the money you paid is all gone. If you are experienced, you lose game reputation, but could be done every 3 months. The fun way would be some sort of test to spot bots. A high-sec patrol might come by and ask people to perform a different task. If thy can do it, they are not bots. If they don't, it is assumed they are bots, and they are put in a penalty zone for human testing

[@moistjohn]

@@toddkes5890 they just ban bots, and then the bots come back usually using a free account and various client/launcher exploits to multibox the unpayed accounts also you can't do the high sec thing since a lot of people do stuff like mining while watching netflix. This why there are groups dedicated to suicide killing miners in highsec, since half are bots, half are afk with timers

[@reuben8140]

Covered at 4:14

[@gamingdarkside101]

Seems like a cool game if tou have a business degree and 3+ years of experience

[@TIB1973]

You don't need any of that. its just s space game. The problem is there is no catch up, basically everyone playing has been playing since inception and you can't compete. I have a love/hate relationship for EVE, its economy should be studied and applied to all MMO's but its influx of Chinese botting players ruined it for me.

[@gamingdarkside101]

@@TIB1973 fair play my go to game at the minute is star citizen (granted its alpha) but thats my go to for my space fix. Probably wont ever play eve but its a good game to learn about

[@StoneXue]

@@TIB1973 In EVE you do not actually need to "catch up". Yeah, you are unlikely to amass the in game wealth someone that has concentrated on in game wealth for 15 years and is good at it. You do not need it though. That person will never spend his trillions he has hoarded. You do not need trillions to blow one of his ships up in PVP though. All you need to do is what everyone always has done in EVE. Join groups that can work together. In time you progress to different roles in the group. In EVE a 2 month old player with no "bought" ISK or SP can be the difference maker in a small roaming gang in low or null sec with his few hundred thousand or millionish SP and a couple million ISK sunk into a ship (all easily obtainable by 2 months in) and you can very well be the guy that stop the trillionaire from getting away while your mates take down his ship.

[@TIB1973]

@@StoneXue had nothing to do with the in game money....you can pay to catch up with that....I meant skills..... You can't catch up on skills,you will always be 15 years behind..... Not that that is a bad thing.

[@alaricvis09]

I have literally developed skills in Eve Online that have transferred into the workplace. I used to do margin trading on Eve's markets, which required Excel spreadsheets that pull API data from the game to update prices and utilize macros and formulas to generate margins for items. My ability to use Excel has become much better due to my activity in Eve Online.

[@mikzin630]

Just imagine showing this video to someone who lived 100 years ago

[@mathieumansire372]

they had science fiction back then , you could show them any video reaally

[@mayankraj2294]

@@mathieumansire372 .

[@ChaotiX1]

I showed Eve to my 95 year old Grandpa before he passed away. His mind was blown to smithereens.

[@obscuredictionary3263]

That’s a stupid thing to say

[@FinalStep5302]

No. Its peek humor

[@HowMoneyWorks]

Hey! This is how Runescape 3 got destroyed (and people doing the max stash glitch)

[@EconomicsExplained]

Hi All. Thanks again for all of the amazing comment left by everybody in the last video. It was so great to talk about the economy of something so left of field with people who were obviously very knowledgeable about the intricacies of both the economy and EVE online. I hope you enjoy this follow up on a very topical issue to both EVE online and our own national economies.

[@wildcat20021]

In these three videos ive seen, you have done a far better job of explaining the nature of eve than virtually any other journalist ive seen. You should break down war costs in eve and go more in depth on player day-to-day.

[@TheControlBlue]

Good video because it addresses one of the major pitfalls most economists are falling into: The idea that Deflation is bad. This is bollocks inherited by a purely theoritical view of the economy, there was **never** a single moment in the modern history of economics where a period of decreasing prices plus a reduction in the money supply has been observed for long enough to say if any of those ills attributed to deflation are bad. No, what we are really in is a loooooooooooong period of constant inflation hidden by a bubble-amount of consumption fueled by debt and money printing. Kinda like EVE with bots. A jacked-up economy that hides an economy with not much value and not much real production/consumption for the average player. Deflation is very much what is needed right now, but it is anathema to Central Banking and Modern Monetary Theories that allow politicians to promise things they have no money to pay for. If you want to stop a haywire consumption and a spiralling of debt, Deflation is what you need, and hopefully with the advent of currencies with no Central Banks and politicians to play and tamper with, like the crypto-currencies, we will have it. Keynes did everything wrong btw, Keynesian economics are the bane of our times.

[@TheMaw365]

It's because we have a debt based economy that is offset against the populations taxes. With falling birth rates the government needs inflation to devalue their debt so they have less debt to pay. That is why they do everything they can to avoid deflation, they will deliberately try and keep it at 2%

[@cdjcon]

Depressions are good ... got it!

[@davianthule2035]

The reason why they do this is because capitalism can not survive without it. Simply put. Capitalism almost failed during the 30s, where radical changes to how money worked were experimented with (like ending commodity currency and going fiat), ultimately it was ww2 and the destruction of capital that provided the revival , however the experiments done during the 1930s gave states the ability to substantially mitigate the immediate impact of the decline in rate of profit (a major factor as to why recession occur). Capitalism cannot survive on a commodity currency, and it will actively resist it.

[@TheControlBlue]

@@davianthule2035 Found the basic commie. The moment you get off the 1800s and Marx's drivels, you can join us into the 21st century and actually provide solutions that can be useful to nowadays problems. The answer to everything is not critiquing Capitalism, 2 fucking centuries should have been proof aplenty.

[@taserrr]

What a load of bollocks, he is correct in the video, deflation is worse for a capitalistic economy because it stops people and companies from buying or spending anything, creating less economy than before, resulting in major economical issues over time. You need some inflation in order to push companies and people to spend money. In my country, a euro will be traded 7 times on average each year, deflation lowers this amount creating a lot less economy and in that way value. The only reason we are able to afford so much compared to earlier centuries is because of mass consumption (obviously technology has a big thing to do with this as well).

[@boomerix]

**mentions Keynes** "This angered the Austrian school economists, who punished him severely."

[@vaclavmarak4456]

Deflation is bad because economy is not moving is such a flawed argument that anybody who bothers to think about it for 5 min can see it through. You cannot wait with 5000 USD for a car to buy a house because you need to commute to work. You cannot wait with 100 USD for a jacket because you do not want to freeze in winter. You cannot wait with 10 USD for todays food because you would starve to death. Deflation does not stop the economy it just punishes the consumerism and rewards frugality. But the deflation does not work in a fiat money central bank run system because the pyramid scheme would crash real fast...

[@ByeByeDaisy]

is that oversimplified Hitler dad joke?

[@null010010]

I've been in EVE since 2005 and still today i manage to discover new stuff to do. EVE in scaling more and more like a fucking universe in itself with a millions thing to try Beside that EVE is also the only game EVER to have my heartbeat race like i jumped up a cliff. Follow this basic rules : Don't EVER fly what you can't afford to replace

[@akselmani]

EE: But in Reality Offline you can't print money remember! FED: Printer goes Brrrr!

[@Newidhan]

i remember this old lady who works for the government coming into our store every like 3 months i think with a list of items and checking their prices. the issue is this was an electronics store and the prices of those change as a function of time and newer models, as well as inflation

[@Quadrolithium]

Then there's the influx of chinese players.... Oh. Shit. We're going to need more players to hunt their botting fleet

[@edwardgaddfree5560]

Eve was smart enough to stick specifically all of the chinese players into their own server

[@fadlya.rahman4113]

Game farming is a huge industry in China.

[@sw33tlizard42]

1989 Tiananmen Square protest

[@correctionguy7632]

@@thegreatnihil7854 what economists do you follow

[@rahulramteke999]

Just spam the words "Tiananmen Square Massacare" in the chat and you will be good.

[@mavor101]

Glad you decided to cover this and expand from what you said in the first vid. Though.. very surprised you didn't show some data regarding the various CPIs that could be generated in EVE and what sort of inflation/deflation you could see from that. Of course, ISK is definitely the most important indicator, because inflation in it without a equal increase in the ability of all players to "earn" their own isk, basically mirrors what is happening in real life - ie. average salaries stagnating while inflation and GDP growth continues.

[@EconomicsExplained]

Yes, there are CPI figures released by CCP but I am not sure what it consists of so i opted to use plex instead given that it is kind of the only universal need of players in the game.

[@leshatcatski5089]

Thanks for this video, New Eden is a fascinating universe, everybody should try and join it. Bots, as far as I know, aren't very versatile, and the mechanics and specific sites they are abusing are pretty well known. Unfortunately, removing or even nerfing those sites would further cut the income of the casual players that want to farm solo while watching some series, though that category is already badly hurt in poorly organized or over extended coalitions since the "blackout" (the removal of "local", list of all the players present in a given system)

[@leshatcatski5089]

Most old and dedicated players can rant for hours about EVE, because it's always about the good old days when people were mining in battleships and a month of game time cost less than half a billion. CCP came up with a set of rules, about 15 years ago: space is liquid, ressources are virtually infinite, player characters are immortal, PvP is everywhere, especially in economics. Then, the devs spent about 15 years changing and rebalancing the those rules, but the players always find new ways to cheese them :o] The search for the new "meta" is a sub-game on its own.

[@mawortz]

Haha in Argentina we have 60% of annual inflation

[@EconomicsExplained]

Yeah not a great situation unfortunately. I wish you all the best mate hopefully things start working out!

[@feartheghus]

Welcome to the Weimar Republic of 2019

[@mawortz]

@@feartheghus let's hope it doesn't lead to fascism

[@feartheghus]

CommanderMawortz Argentina is gonna get a weird mustached man from Columbia who walks in and takes over...

[@winged_destro]

@@feartheghus sus

[@Somentus]

Hey, I love your series! Small suggestion: don't start the video with a bit of silence, it confused me, I thought my audio wasn't working. But keep up the great work, very informative videos, I never played EVE Online but the video is very entertaining!

[@Mic_Glow]

For someone paying for subscription bots printing money/ minerals isn't a big deal. As long as I can get a cheap ship (bot miners help with that- low prices) to fly around I'm happy. But seeing 7 bots warp to safety the second you enter system (and see same thing 10 more times on your roam trough a region) is a huge let-down and makes you not want to play. Sure there are ways to catch those bots, but they are time consuming and require multiple accounts, logging in and out etc. It's a hassle and satisfaction is low.

[@BanControl]

Combat scanners

[@bluejanis5317]

I had a similar frustrating experience with market bots.

[@TommasProGaminggg]

Wait so are you mad you are not able to kill the bots so it makes you not want to play?

[@Mic_Glow]

@@TommasProGaminggg Not mad, more like resigned. You know you get a little excitement after seeing some neutrals, do a bit of d-scan/ probe/ warping around and find them at a POS... the excitement turns into a let-down. Multiply 10 times over a 2-hour roam. Anyway, the post is a year old, surrounding region activity is different now.

[@TommasProGaminggg]

@@Mic_Glow so compared to last year the robot problem is gone

[@seancarnell1503]

Me, studying accounting with no plans to play EVE: "interesting..." Seriously though, I first heard about EVE amd the economy years ago and figured it died out by now. Amazing to see how far it's come. Inflation, casinos, war bonds, CPI... this game could be a whole undergraduate course

[@cyrusalthor8583]

Great video. Eve's economy is also full of pretty extreme market distortions. The skill injector market in particular, which allows a player to inject a significant amount of ISK by spending real money. It's also worth pointing out that quite recently CCP jacked up the tax rates and brokerage fees on regular in-game purchases, which will have the effect of widening the ISK sink. Another detail to point out is that unlike IRL, Eve Corporations have their own independent tax rate which is levied upon players who are members of that corporation. This is set by the head of the corporation and the tax is paid directly to the corporation itself. It's a bit like going to work each day and instead of being paid a salary, you're paying for the privilege of being able to work! Typically that corporate income is used to pay for operational/logistical concerns (e.g. corps need to buy fuel for their space stations). But some corps will also reinvest that money and use it to fund ships for use by the corp members, or for special things like prizes at the end of the month for getting the most kills. Usually these tax rates are only a few percentage points, but in some circumstances, they will be raised to 100%. Furthermore, there is no proportionate direct tax _on_ corporations themselves, although there is a fee for running an alliance of corporations, this is fairly insignificant. As such, the finance of Eve corporations is quite different to RL.

[@EconomicsExplained]

Oh of course, to be honest I do not really look at corporations in eve as the equivalent to companies in RL. I see corporation in eve more as municipalities which are part of larger nations (alliances) in regards to taxation and the like. Skill injectors are an interesting one, unfortunately I am not nearly skilled enough to talk on that issue with any authority.

[@MadM0nte]

Have you ever thought "I really need food but it'll be cheaper tomorrow so I just won buy any?" That is how a Keynsian do.

[@sumitrana2420]

I thought you won't buy anything more than essentials because you keep on hoarding the rest and that just makes things very wasteful.

[@sevenproxies4255]

It has definitely been causing the game to break. It's not really the inflation of the value of isk that is the problem, but the value of capital ships that players buy for it.

[@AlaskaFinal]

There are two kinds of deflation; Deflation of excess supply and deflation of deficient demand. The former is good; if you overwrite this deflation, you harm your economy. Keynes got that part wrong.

[@fdsaasdf4633]

And that kind of deflation was the kind America had during her most robust era, the mid to late 1800s. Goods got cheaper each year and we went from a couple of small colonies to a world superpower in half a century. Listening to Keynes was a horrible mistake.

[@matiasorce5738]

@@fdsaasdf4633 imagine listening to keynes while inflation is at 40%. welcome to argentina

[@xemptx]

agreed, it's a tricky concept

[@manchuratt8900]

3:42 It would look like modern day runescape. In 80% of runescape maps, all players you see are bots. Chats are so quite that it's creepy.

[@knpark2025]

3:44 about that, EVE in the year 2019 was a race between bounty bots and mining bots. Big power blocks churned out basic resources on par with the bounty botters, and for the most part the price of basic materials and primary goods made from them remained stable. What did change were price of goods whose production that could not be scaled indefinately (resources that had a hypothetical cap in their production capacity, and advanced ships and items using such rare materials), and what can be called an exchange rate between the ISK(the ingame currency) and the USD. The former rose 50%, the latter at least 200% in the last 5 years.

[@CalebAyrania]

Slight issue with this since it compares the real life "money printing" with EVE isk faucets. The 2 are almost opposites. Thus "inflation" in EVE benefits the "workers" including bots a lot more than EVE isk rich groups. Basically by devaluing the isks purchasing power while keeping isk ROI on active game high it hurts the existing value of stored ISK. The problem is that it artificially counters deflation which "devalues" real value of stored assets/goods. There are many similarities with real life regarding how say high inflation counters the valuation of loans and interest rates, and thus how it potentially messes with stored money based wealth. However in EVE money can actually leave the system through sinks, something not really a factor in real life. So in short automation isk printing in EVE might not be so bad if it wasnt for the fact that it is impossible for the playerbase to keep up with their devaluation of isks purchasing power. Thus they have to store wealth in raw materials, but bots also gather this, so we get an endless see saw of back and forth value on labor based on current "design optimum" and thus resulting opportunity costs. CCP needs to design around this by making a more chaotic and localized economy effect. So you cant effectively calculate optimums, because purchasing power and valuation will be based on where a player lives.

[@wakandanwarrior8297]

Fantastic video! Idk if you play eve or not, but you have the same level of knowledge as most guys I talk with. Either amazing research or a true eve fan, either way I love it!

[@kairon156]

Deflation is something I think about from time to time and it's quite rare to hear someone talk about it in detail. Thanks for another good video.

[@tardwrangler]

One of my biggest issues with MMOs. Makes me feel like a sucker for not spending a few bucks on a good botting program, you just can't compete.

[@DaKnightsofawesome]

>Keynesian Economics

[@honestabe6926]

Ewwwwww

[@the_primal_instinct]

Except banks can create their own money in the form of credit.

[@godCobain]

.... basic economics will show you that credit is not "money" per se lmao come on dude. college 101

[@rolan4dezwinz381]

Annie Rue Credit still isn’t money. It’s a debt that will be paid back one way or another; that couch you sit on is worth money. If you don’t pay back the debt, banks/government/people will get there money still.

[@evryatis2853]

thats literally their money

[@SteveConsGaming]

Your Channel is very informative! EVE ONLINE Is still the most interactive game there is! We really love EVE ONLINE, if you guys havent played eve online yet! now is the time to try eve online for free!

[@stupidangel318]

Can we get a video on the effects of UBI in the big null sec empires and how it overlaps with various case studies in the physical world?

[@jackbarbey]

You killed me by saying that Keynes was the most influential economist in history. Guess we know what school you subscribe to. Adam Smith 4 life!

[@EconomicsExplained]

Haha oof knee I would rattle some cages with that one! Hopefully you enjoyed otherwise ;)

[@jackbarbey]

@@EconomicsExplained Yep, super interesting look at virtual economies. I think that is a really interesting area of research for modern economists. Econ has generally been a very hard research area because of limited, observational only data. These virtual economies allow for some natural experiments on market forces. Very fascinating

[@dylanhecker6686]

The "invisible hand" lol

[@fearindrive]

Good up until you mentioned keynes. His theory about deflation is wrong, thinking that consumption would suddenly stop because people are saving completely discounts the time value of money. Keynes wants to increase present consumption at the expense of future consumption (savings). Please read some Hayek!

[@EconomicsExplained]

Ahh a hayek fan, good stuff. I knew this would be a controversial topic. The time value of money partly exists because returns can be generated with money (so its better to have it now and start on those returns), inflationary pressure, and the ever present threat of not being alive tomorrow but that mainly refer to people wanting money today rather than not caring about having money tomorrow.

[@cmilkau]

Game designer's rule of thumb: if players automate (some part of) your game, it's a bad design. Rationale behind this is that players wouldn't delegate an activity they enjoy. However, also game designer's rule of thumb: if you let them, players will optimize the fun out of your game.

[@yanDeriction]

The argument against deflation is quite silly. There are already easy ways for people to passively grow the wealth that they don't spend, yet people still buy cars.The fact is people will buy things they need even if it comes at a future opportunity cost. If someone is choosing to save on things they don't absolutely need now because their money is appreciating, it is a very good thing for the environment, and for resource security. Any economic system in danger of collapsing from people consuming too responsibly is a terrible economic system that has to be reformed.

[@xavierc7352]

How do you passively grow your wealth?

[@bluejanis5317]

When market bots ruined the game for me, I stopped playing. I complained to support, they didnt care. Obviously they are not against bots.

[@andreacapuano585]

even if they delete 100 bots the other whot lost ? a few days of remake that again. also, in the mean time He make billion and billion of isk so delete is bot wouldn't do much whot ccp need is a perma ban of the one that create all this bots plus force disband the alliance and put negative wallet to who close an eye to that.

[@treebush]

Crazy how this could show how Ai and robots will affect a countries economy

[@Jintaan]

Hey EE, you said you left your email in the video description but I can't see it there, which may mean I'm blind - But if I'm not, please let me know what it is, as I'd love to talk to you some more about your views on this topic! As an EVE player (not an economist), it's something I find fascinating.

[@EconomicsExplained]

Jin'taan hey mate it is [e-mail]

[@caseylp7121]

hi Jin o7

[@RanaRandom]

whattup dude :D 2o7

[@paladinrpg]

Great followup! I also suggest you take a look at how the dropping price of PLEX after the recent anti-botting mechanics shows a decent move towards an actual players time/ISK value now being worth more.

[@EconomicsExplained]

Yes this is literally the most perfect example of deflation happening in real time after the inflationary pressure of boy farms was removed. Amazing to see stuff working like this on a model economy like EVE!

[@Chris-jw8vm]

6:34 Not a great example shown from what I know. Sure it might look extreme to have a handful of 1000 denomination notes but that's because the Thai baht doesn't bother with cents or pennies. If I recall correctly most of the time £1 translates to about 150 baht. And the currency seemed stable over the decade or so I'd on and off visited Thailand.

[@angelhanna2917]

I’m so into this serie, very interesting. Greetings, from Venezuela. 🇻🇪

[@EconomicsExplained]

Thanks mate glad to here you are enjoying the videos :)

[@ngaugeph6739]

Hey, how's the situation in Venezuela Angel?

[@angelhanna2917]

​@@ngaugeph6739 All is fucked up. i do trading (Stock Market), If it wasn't for that, I would be eating from the trash.

[@yaci7945]

Angel Hanna shit sorry to hear that , good luck anyway.

[@ngaugeph6739]

@@angelhanna2917 I am sorry to hear that... truly i am, thank you for taking the time to answer my question and I hope things will be better for you and for the people of Venezuela.

[@redteamcell]

This was ridiculously informative.

[@kevincronk7981]

If limited, inflation isn't just the lesser of 2 evils, it is good. The fact that your money will eventually buy less encourages people to spend, you just need to make sure you don't have too much or you get the classic hyperinflation story

[@Eli_Ross]

I survived the NullSec Blackout. It may have gotten rid of a lot of the botters but there was also a lot of collateral damage and it made everyone down there a bit more paranoid. I still sometimes instinctively press the V key to scan for any approaching hostile ships.

[@gilgamesh7055]

4:24 "Okay, fair warning; here comes the educational part of this video" Nigga i have an economy test on friday, this video and part 1 seems like best pander to show my teacher. I also love you explaining this economy stuff that i learned years ago when i was 13 to every viewer here. Scandinavian educational system is the best in the world.

[@LOUDMOUTHTYRONE]

When I hear deflation is bad all I can think about is people are going to stop eating, stop repairing, and save up money for big purchases in the future.

[@StarCitizenJorunn]

Great follow up, I was really looking forward to this when I finished the other video. I Don't play EVE but have been trying to study video game economies as I look forward to the future Star Citizen economy and their challenges. I was a little disturbed by the reverence given Keynes though in this particular instance the balance of inflation and deflation is on point. I'm a student of Hayek who was Keynes arch nemesis though not nearly so well appreciated, though far more prescient. Luckily Tony Zurovec seems to be more a student of Hayek as well, we shall see how it develops down the road.

[@fdsaasdf4633]

That last sentence just sold me on Star Citizen. I haven't played any space MMOs but I love studying video game economies and if SC's economy is going to be as good as it sounds then that sounds like one hell of a game...

[@SteveConsGaming]

Try eve online, its free so you can have hands or first hand experience in your observation :) eve economy is realistic specially if your engage in market

[@StarCitizenJorunn]

@@fdsaasdf4633 it's probably two years from beta for the persistent universe. It's still in alpha but it's playable if you take the view that you are testing as it's built. There are lots of bugs and things change every few months with all the patches delivering new content. But there is no more immersive beautiful experience of flying spaceships with friends as a first person experience, being a person walking around planets, cities and spaceships. Over 80 different fully 1 to 1 scale spaceships are flyable up to a monstrous 600 foot space yacht capital ship you can have a party with 50 friends on with over 60 rooms, a bar, pool, spa, viewing decks. My referral code is STAR-VHR9-3RSM and you can find me in the community under Jorunn. Always happy to help new folks =)

[@StarCitizenJorunn]

@@SteveConsGaming I've looked at Eve for years but it always looked too complicated for me with not enough actual feeling of space. I only learned later how toxic it is there.

[@SteveConsGaming]

@@StarCitizenJorunn hahaha i see, i think you need to try the game solo mode. meaning try to roam the space, close local chat, trust me it makes a lot of difference :)

[@gabiedubin]

the last video was awesome!!!!! i am happy you made a part two

[@shannahan7]

Great video! This is the first time I've ever heard anything intelligent regarding Keynesian economics. Could you do a video on Austrian Economics, or even just about Murray Rothbard or Ludwig Von Mises? Thanks.

[@Mcgreag]

Only problem with whole argument is that there has not been any inflation in EVE. While there been some smaller fluctuations in the CPI it's actually the same today as it was 12 years ago. The mineral prices changes, the producer price indexes changes but the CPI has remained stable since 2008.

[@andrewearl8926]

I have been thinking on how automation would be effecting the workforce. It would remove jobs yet still produce more overall. I try to liken it to the great depression and the over production of food by farmers. Such issue in the future was fixed by giving farmers money for not using all of their land. Could the same be applied to companies employing robots? Would a robot Tax or a human Subsidy be the most effective at combating our unemployment problem?

[@sprintwarrior18]

I finally downloaded this game. I am interested to play it

[@Silent_Shadow]

Iused bots once in Eve back in 2008. It went great for a few months mining. Made Billions of ISK without even trying. Then one day I couldn't log in. After begging and 2 months of being banned they unbanned me. And took every ISK I had. Also took profits so I was negative in my wallet by 8 Billion. I've been a good boy since.

[@DoccyStars]

4:36 Monetarists have left the chat

[@garriscyan]

Enjoyed it, thanks!

[@Fredreegz]

Also if the core process to gain rewards in your game is so boring and repetitive that players would rather not do it, your game has a problem. Core gameplay loops should be fun - you shouldn't be looking forwards to when your quest is completed so that you can get rewarded. The quest itself should be the ongoing emotional reward. The reward for participating in the game is the fun the player has when doing it. Always been staunchly against 'grinding' in video games - that's what my job is for.

[@veganspaceships6252]

Add the fact that just making more accounts can make you 200M - 1B a month depending on how many skill points are getting given out and skill injector farming. Not just botting that is the problem

[@BanControl]

i dont see skill farming as an issue because injectors will always be in demand and skill farmers drive the price down

[@jesaispas92]

Ok i just watched the other video and seeing this one, clearely this game has some economic paper material ! It would be amazing

[@jameswebster4689]

I think the reason that deflation is seen to be worse than inflation is more to do with that it makes debt more expensive, which reduces consumption, rather than reducing consumption by delaying purchases which is empirically quite a weak effect. It can be seen as a way of shifting wealth from the poor who are more likely to be borrowers to the wealthy that are generally debtors, and given the wealthy tend to save more than the poor, it negatively hits overall consumption.

[@jameswebster4689]

Despite that, deflation due to increases in productivity resulting in higher supply is surely a good thing in the long-run.

[@rubenlarochelle1881]

3:58 Oh you

[@freequest]

Yeah I mine in a SKiff in .6 space you can hear the regular pirates NPC, but you cant hear the Triglavions. Not that it bothers me I don't AFK mine, but it's terrific having .6 system after .6 system completely free of anyone mining I sit by myself with no one in a system for hours on end (:

[@king_kech2190]

Join Test and come do that with bros

[@taserrr]

I never understood the appeal of mining, you literally don't do anything and barely make a profit.

[@freequest]

@@taserrr For me I don't sell the ore I mine then I use the stuff to build Battleships. So for me its basically free money all I invest is time and I can mine on the potato laptop at work (:

[@king_kech2190]

@@taserrr you havent used a rorq then

[@taserrr]

@@freequest It's not free money, it takes you a lot of time to get a very small amount, but yeah I guess if you can afk it's all good :D

[@unacceptablebilly1689]

What a great comparison of inflation vs deflation. Slightly higher prices vs $1000 buying you a car this year but a house the next. Yes I can see why deflation would be just horrible. Lol

[@MegaTechGuy]

deflation is not bad for the economy. "oh look soap will be $0.09 cheaper next year so I'm going to wait til next year to buy it." Said no one ever, deflation should be a natural effect of a good healthy economy.

[@franklinz8098]

This is what happened to Crossout. Deflation got to a point where human grinding is utterly useless and the only way to obtain non-starter stuff is buying them from bot farmers.

[@yadinandyanay]

“This is what inflation actually is” >proceeds to describe exactly what inflation is not >inflation is everywhere and at all times a monetary phenomenon

[@petersteenkamp]

There's price inflation and monetary inflation. These are somewhat linked but not the same. And just talking about "inflation" makes it confusing which of these inflations is talked about.

[@3576alan]

John Maynard Keynes economic system only works if governments apply savings; but they don't. Keynesian economics relies on savings during times of plenty. Also the inflation rate is due using fiat currency vs. Hard backed money. FDR and the bank and the BAR association screwed all of us and John Maynard Keynes simply attempted to apply a bandaid to a flawed monetary system.

[@pasticcinideliziosi1259]

They could have changed the reward for bounty prices to goods, so that If a lot of goods were produced by botting, the price of these would fall and theoretically, since these goods can produce only so many things that people need, there wouldn’t be as high of an inflation as there is. Also, after prices decrease, botting might stop because people see that the profit margin is too small

[@kertaspaper94]

4:33 wait people thought of inflation like that ???

[@Spartan322]

From a logical standpoint, Keynes evaluations of deflation only work in reference to extremes, (and even then only function in an economic interventionist government that lacks a value standard like gold or silver) and his economic models were actually hugely off base from reality as time goes on, and many that adopt his models also tend towards pushing to more government interventionist extremes, which tends to also hamper economies more then improve them.

[@noobiusmaximus6314]

Does this mean that deflation is always temporary? If the general public notice deflation, and stop spending in order to get the most out of their money, wont that stop the deflation?

[@EconomicsExplained]

No the opposite actually. Businesses will not be selling enough product because nobody wants to buy anything so they will be forced to drop prices furthering deflation. This is why deflation is kinda scary!

[@fdsaasdf4633]

​@@EconomicsExplained I think that the assumption that people won't buy anything due to deflation is misguided and not based on empirical evidence, correct me if I'm wrong. Secondly, I don't believe businesses will lower prices in the long term if they notice a trend in people not buying their goods; but rather cut production to meet the lower demand, thus moving the supply curve so that the price point remains constant. This is often the scenario when demand falls, not lower price.

[@joshuacooley1417]

I think there is an argument to be made that bad deflation is essentially only possible, or likely, due to irresponsible inflationary monetary policies. When the economy is good there is always a temptation for Banks, investors, industry, and government to get greedy and start trying to make more and more money through easy credit. Pump in more money, to encourage more spending which piles up for the consumer as debt. Consumers, just like everyone else, get greedy and start taking on irresponsible levels of debt to fuel an ever increasing standard of living. This essentially creates what we now call 'bubbles'. Times where the economy is artificially over-valued. Eventually the game of musical chairs stops, the easy money dries up, and consumers are left under a mountain of debt that they can no longer finance. Growth stops because the easy credit is no longer there to fuel it, but then on top of that, consumers are forced to drastically cut spending to try and deal with their large debts. Thus deflation results. The Keynesian solution to this is essentially to just never stop printing money, ever. Maybe the MMT proponents are correct and we will never actually have to pay the piper. However, even if that is the case, I think that this economic model has severe problems socially, ecologically, and in human terms. It is, in my opinion, a really bad idea on those levels to build an economic machine that is fueled by endlessly increasing consumption.

[@rostyloco1]

Thank you mate

[@cmomccloud8099]

One big massive assumption is being made. That there are really bots in this game that CCP has no way to deal with.

[@EconomicsExplained]

I will give them credit where it is due, it is hard to deal with a bot that you aren't 100% sure is a bot. I would probably argue it is better that 10 bots go unbanned than one genuine player looses their account that they have spent years building legitimately.

[@cmomccloud8099]

@@EconomicsExplained You are still assuming that they have no way to deal with bots. I honestly believe CCP just uses bots as a way to push their monetization of the game.

[@EconomicsExplained]

@@cmomccloud8099 You know you might be right haha you will probably called a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist but you could see how they could benefit

[@OriginalWarwood]

@@cmomccloud8099 no, he is pointing out that it can be challenging to identify what is a bot, and what is not. And, he is pointing out the risk of banning a legitimate player. You are making the assumption that CCP doesn't care. Botting v AFK ratting can look similar, but only 1 violates the EULA. Individuals who spend time working through their markey orders over and over again, when the timer finishes, can appear to be a bot, but is allowed. All MMORG's face botting problems, but more so with repetitive and less enjoyable tasks. Identifying and removing bots has never been easy to do, unless the developer decides to eschew the risk of alienating the player base by allowing swaths of innocent players to be caught in a wide ban hammer net.

[@jackhere6094]

Love it, keep it up!

[@claushellsing]

one can learn , Python, PHP, HTML, Javascript, CSS, Artificial Intelligence, Algorithm, and another language, In the time will take me to master this game

[@ZHCofficial]

i had no idea about this game prolly my next hobby

[@benjaminrupertodomingo1707]

I can also pay a regular person to pilot my account, its an actual person who handles my account. Asia has a wealth of people willing to work for minimal labor payment

[@sarttee]

3:32 Eve anti robot?. apollo tyrannos WANTS TO KNOW YOUR LOCATION

[@bc64100]

I'm anti-elf lol

[@SunchaserWorld]

I like your insight in this video. Thank you 😁

[@germas369]

I just want to know where you got that giant box of Tesco tissues from??? Never seen one that big but i'd like to get my hands on one for sure.

[@aangkim]

watching this video on the eve of Tesla AI day is really interesting. Thinking about the implications of these robots on the economy in eve, versus what Elon proclaims they will bring

[@kekero540]

Solution for eve developers, get rid of bounty prizes and make bounties different world events that spawns a boss for a corporation to kill and awards money to the corporation, that way you can add money into the economy while also controlling for robots.

[@MrTyler918273]

I never took a university level economics course, so could I get some clarification? You are saying that deflation can be even worse than inflation. We have tons of real world examples of excessive inflation having terrible results (Venezuela, Zimbabwe, etc as you noted in the video). Do we have any real world examples of excessive deflation causing problems, or is it just speculation? The only examples I can think of are industry specific, but none of those cases seemed to have the negative effects proposed here. The most prominent in my mind would be computers. The cost per unit of processing power has been going down exponentially for like 60 years, but that hasn't seemed to reduce demand at all. To the contrary, it is one of the most successful and profitable industries ever. The main fear in that industry is that we are about to hit the end of the deflation curve. Perhaps that is a special case because the demand for computation is pretty much infinite, but are there any real world examples that illustrate the problems you proposed?

[@grahamturner2640]

4:03 Why would the Secret Service join the chat? Do they even deal with counterfeiting anymore?

[@schlab73]

The problem with Keynes' thinking is that it assumes human beings are rational economic actors, which they clearly are not. As an example, price/performance for electronics has been decreasing steadily but people are buying more electronics every year.

[@AmunRa1]

The 'hyper-deflation' thing sounds a whole lot about what happened with Bitcoin. The price of bitcoin was rising so fast, that it was worthless as a currency. If you used a bitcoin to buy a pizza when bitcoin was new, people would call you an idiot because you could have saved it and been a millionaire in a few years! Because people thought like this, hardly anyone actually used their bitcoin as a freakin' currency. It was mostly seen as an investment.

[@TECHN01200]

If MMOs allowed bots, I doubt there would be massive inflation and here is why (assuming there are brokerage fees and taxes as sinks of which there are in eve): Investing bots that invest in items and make and update orders will destroy a lot of the currency made by simply trading.

[@cmilkau]

I learned that deflation means declining supply and can be accompanied by increasing or decreasing prices.

[@paulbrown7455]

Huh. I always thought deflation, through automation and no other means, would result in economies not incentivising producers enough to bother producing goods at a large scale. Even with automation making it easier to do so at greater and greater levels, with more efficient and effective production leading to a massive reduced cost in production, to inflate prices enough that it's worth it for them. People may be able to hold money and buy a house in a year vs a car now as you say with falling prices, but the entire production industry wherever automation is employed would mean EVERYTHING is significantly cheaper/easier to make and thus purchase with falling associated costs thus less profitable when it comes to consumer goods that are automatable in production. That or it just eliminates cost of manufacture and all we're left is arbitrary prices as even the management of these companies producing these goods would be significantly lowered do to automation thus both the cost of production AND operation of the company itself in terms of personnel and paperwork associated with it which you'd need to hire people to handle all being eliminated from the equation. Goes toward why Andy Yang, or whatever the name of the guy who's running for president is, is saying. Too narrow an outlook, automation isn't a new piece in the system. It's a new system.

[@TheDnaitsirc]

Deflation gud, promotes saving and only spending in real needs

[@Steelrat1994]

They should introduce some plot, like 'an alien race from an outside galaxy is overtaking the minds of our citizens. If they aren't stopped they will overtake us all' and put bounties on those bots. Introduce some way for players to verify whether a player is a bot or a real player. Have overly productive players being marked in some way, so that people would go and check them out.

[@kipo8454]

Tbh playing a true Capitalism simulator like this is better than losing all your irl cash, I think I’d play this after my contract ends. Would be fun to get into the pride of your role in the galactic ecosystem. If of course it ends up like that. It appears I may need to watch actual gameplay instead of these lovely videos

[@agustinsalas3240]

As an argentinian, i feel attacked for the "high" inflation of just 10%. I wished we had only 10%

[@turboenano1]

Me gustaria que Javier Milei comente el video jajaja

[@agustinsalas3240]

@Jericho Inalisan we'll, in the last ten years our lowest anual inflation was 24% and in 2019 it reached 50%

[@agustinsalas3240]

@Jericho Inalisan we are used to economic crisis. Basically every ten years we have one (2019, 2008, 2001, 1989, 1975, etc.), and then get back up again. Now was the time to get back up again, but this pandemic is gonna make it difficult... Only time will tell.

[@mwbgaming28]

The problem with inflation is that wages don't increase in line with prices

[@rognarledieuchevre5788]

There's a game call dofus which have the exact opposite problem, bot cause deflation by collect resource so the prices fall and we can no longer sell

[@bigblue4364]

Auto miners harvesting resources to build things causes deflation, Auto ratters/missioners printing money threw bounties and mission rewards causes Inflation. Considering the amount of ISK (money) "Printed" threw the bounty system by regular, non bot, players a healthy amount of macro miners would help offset the inflation... at least theoretically. I am no economist, but in the 10 year hiatus I took from the game prices have gone way up on many things, and CCP has been touting the same anti-bot rhetoric the whole time. If something doesn't work the 10000th time, it might be wise to see if you're treating a symptom rather than the cause. Eve doesn't have a bot problem, it has a mindless grind problem, bots are mostly just a symptom.