Ecumenism - Catholic Unscripted 51

[@fergcoldharbour]

One of the reasons I gave up my licence to act as an Anglican clergyman was that the 'ordination' of woman ended the possibility of the Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox churches growing together. Surely this is what the Lord demands of us. After I gave up my licence and had discussions with the RC bishop I told him that it could be summarised as the nature of Authority. Interestingly he said that I should point this out to the RC pressure groups who tormented him! Have wondered for some years why Francis doesn't just become an Anglican as he would be more at home there than as a member of the Roman Catholic church. An Anglican can believe whatever he or she likes and there is little of substantial authority to which appeal can be made and guidance sought.

[@jenyoung2473]

I think he really wants to break the church

[@philiphumphrey1548]

I was an Anglo-Catholic. One of the things that prompted me to leave and become RC was John Paul IIs definitive statement on the ordination of women. From that point on I could see no hope of any reconciliation with Rome. I believed in the real presence and the authority of the pope, so I couldn't with integrity remain an Anglican. I couldn't just knuckle down to the "authority" of those who were rendering the Church further asunder.

[@orarerosarium]

Your discussions are so rich. I’m grateful for in-depth explanations. Just read chap in Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s book about Mary and priesthood--why women can’t be priests. Paraphrased badly, he said if anyone deserved to be a priest, it was Mary. She was the most perfect created being, outside the humanity of Jesus, and she was as close to the body and blood of Jesus than anyone ever was. But she wasn’t made a priest because she symbolizes the Church. *** Re legitimacy issue, I agree with you. I’m around many Anglicans who get very heated when Eucharist is brought up at ecumenical retreats. They get so upset if a Catholic priest is presiding at mass and they aren’t invited to receive Eucharist. They are tolerant of many other beliefs, especially if liberal, but I have seen many become angry and/or weepy at different retreats/workshops because of a scheduled Catholic mass-even if an Anglican service is scheduled on another day. They might be more accepting of Jewish or Muslim beliefs, but not Catholic. I have seen this set off a “soft” riot. PF is not Anglican--he's a secular man who is supposed to be pointing the way to the transcendent instead of the world. He's actually all too familiar in the American RC Church. I learned a long time ago that many clergy and religious share his beliefs and are, for example, pro-choice--this is one of many ways they've led the sheep astray. I vacillated back and forth myself about legality--you know, well, I'm pro life, but I'm for choice!--and then I meditated on the scriptures. When Elizabeth sees Mary the child in her womb leapt for joy because of the tiny (holy) creature in Mary's womb. If one unborn child recognizes another unborn child, I think that says something about what we must believe and how we must behave. But just this Sunday, our pastor did gymnastics trying to please his very large congregation. He was a tad apologetic in his bulletin homily about being pro life. That's what we have going on now. (Not everywhere, but in a lot of places.)

[@MonsignorHagood]

I love my Anglican Brothers and Sisters, but as a Priest, I cannot help but wonder how my Ordinariate Brothers and Prelates are feeling right now. I know Monsignor Newton was CofE, and the fact that the Pope just accepted a blessing from an Anglican Bishop makes me wonder if he feels gut punched. Honestly, this whole thing makes me sad.

[@yorkmum3152]

Another excellent discussion. Thank you. I've been mulling over Gavin's point about different aspects of the Trinity divided amongst Protestant (The Word), Pentecostals (The Holy Spirit) and the Catholic and Orthodox (over) emphasising (?) The Father and a reintegration of a balance in Trinitarian being a path to healing. It is a good point but I think that we have to be careful. The Catholic position is that the Fullness of Truth lies in the Catholic Church, so while we rightly acknowledge that there is some Truth in other confessions there is a tension in proposing that Catholic/Orthodox Church is "missing" something.... it may be the case (it is) that individuals within the Church are imperfect.... sinners striving to be saints BUT we mustn't gloss the Truth. (I see the growth in Bible Study that has come with the wave of conversions in late 20th centrury as an example of what Gavin means. (e.g. Scott Hahn and others.) Mark's witness to the Baptists strikes as authentic and I'm sure that he prays for their conversion to the fullness of Truth while acknowledging their sincere commitment to following Jesus in all good conscience where they are. We must continue to pray for our "Separated Brethren". We know that true Worship at its best. attracts and it is one reason we must always strive to offer the best Worship to Almighty God.

[@JackFalltrades]

So, when was the Catholic Mass in Canterbury Cathedral, or is that upcoming?

[@pseudonymy]

Excellent point Gavin as to the Trinitarian model of spirituality, and possible pathways of healing. Good discussion as usual.

[@stuartmenziesfarrant]

Silence is a great movie.

[@joncardenas3203]

You guys are great!!!

[@SimeonFM]

Thank you, Gavin, for your helpful thoughts towards the end of this discussion, re Trinitarian worship that embraces rather than artificially silos the 'three charisms'. Jesus calls us to worship the Father as one 'in spirit and in truth'. Our unity is in Christ, as Mark rightly says. Lord, lead us. We choose this day as one to follow You as Head of the Church. Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen and amen and amen 🔥 🙏 🕊

[@bridghemartin6896]

I have fallen in love with you guys as we say in America.😂

[@christygarcia4843]

Your comment about the American Anglicans confused me. I came from the American Episcopal Church in the late 70s, when they went alphabet. Since then, from what I’ve read, some of them split away and are trying to pretend they are orthodox catholic, but the Episcopal Church is still in “communion” with the Church of England and Welby. Those are the ones, too, that ostracized Abby Johnson when she left PParenthood.

[@tomthx5804]

Dr. Jeff Mirius, speaking of ecumenism in " Vatican II on Ecumenism: Principles" "To the contrary, however, the whole motive for ecumenism from the Council’s point of view is the vital importance of bringing all Christians into unity in the one Church of Christ, which it clearly identifies as the Catholic Church" So there - Vatican II itself said that the one Church of Christ was the Catholic church.

[@gerrymcdonnell1946]

Because of the apostasy and backsliding of the people, Jeremiah was going to pack it in.The Lord told him 'You must not go back to them. They will come back to you ' (Jer 15:19). The conciliar church of Vatican 2 did not take this guidance. Whenever you step back you become a part of the crowd. What we are seeing now is the worldly apostate church that cares more about the climate of the world than the fires of hell.

[@threeinone6977]

For me, this is V2's biggest blunder and the Demon's genius - Ecumenism (Appeasement). First, split the Church then reconcile it by watering down, "in practice", its doctrines.) I was baptized in my local Church, that of the English Martyrs, (More, Fisher, Clitherow etc.) I learnt Catholic apologetics growing up, I remember being called Roman Catholic and not just Catholic. I remember being taught that I belonged to the ONE TRUE Church." and it meant something. By pandering to groups that don't share or WANT TO SHARE, the same faith and doctrine, we weaken our own. It's an important point, THEY DON'T WANT TO SHARE THE SAME FAITH. Therefore stop pandering to them! (There's a "pastor, vicar, elder", or whatever, on YT who has a statue of Henry VIII behind him. There are many of that type still living the 500yr old arguments, rabidly, and as bigotedly, to this day. (Ecumenism is a myth, they don't want to change, it's just a tea and buns exercise. BUT, under V2, Catholics are not even allowed to proselytize these people? Instead of continuing to produce a full red wine, V2 has produced a watered down and almost transparent crop. There have been some horrendous appeasing acts since V2, with the popes leading the way, to what point? All it says to Roman Catholics is that, "if it's Ok for them as brothers and sisters in Christ, through baptism, to believe what they want, then why not us?" "Let them be one" absolutely, "let them be one name but believe anything" absolutely not. "We believe in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic Church." PERIOD. Time will tell of course if this "experiment" is kept on?

[@janeproctor5542]

1:15 The message going out seems to be that there is something wrong with the church that needs correction rather than something wrong with people that wants correcting or stands to be corrected. So it seems that the church is as relevant to humankind as it ever and always was.😊

[@orarerosarium]

I guess I’m simple-minded. I myself do not understand how anyone could follow a Church “founded” by Henry VIII. I love reading history and watching plays about him, and I went to an exhibit on Henry VIII at the Met last year. But it’s hard for me to understand being in a Church founded by such a person. RC’s go back to Christ, Mary, and, of course, St. Peter. 🤷‍♀️

[@christopherjohnson9167]

Have faith friend. The gates of hell will not prevail. The Holy Spirit will always guide the Church Christ founded. This is the first step towards unity and submission to the magisterium. However we must be humble and understand why division occured in the first place in order to heal the divide. We need to open our hearts to our fallen away brothers and sisters in Christ in order to build a bridge for them to come home. Christ wanted a unified Church. Christianity as it is now is vulnerable to attack, imagine how strengthened we would be if we were united. And Im not saying that we should compromise on any orthodox Catholic teaching, just that we have to be humble and open to dialogue and where we have failed in our pastoral duties.

[@tomthx5804]

No, this is totally false. There is good ecumenism that is entirely proper and good according to Catholic teaching. But some took it to ridiculous lengths, and thought it meant giving up Catholic principles. THAT sort of effort was not intended by Vatican II, and not authorized by Vatican II. The problem, as always, is NOT in Vatican II, but in the way that some liberals bastardized Vatican II to promote a false ecumenism. Christ certainly wants all to be one, and outreach efforts to non Catholics should always be at the very heart of Catholicism - so long as we do not give up any Catholic principles to get there.

[@threeinone6977]

​@@tomthx5804 It's not "totally false", there's no where to go with ecumenism other than tea and cake and playing footsie under the table. They have no intention of accepting the Catholic Church of 2000 years and its teaching. They only want to believe in their made up version of Christianity. So what's the point? Talking to some JWs recently, they loathe the Catholic Church; some local self-taught bible "Christians?", knocked the door, once they found out I'm a Catholic, they hit me with all the same old anti-Catholic hatred I've heard for the last 45+ years. NO amount of "good ecumenism" whatever that is, will make a difference ~ Why? Because they believe they have the TRUE faith and doctrinal system!

[@dianestroud8006]

I really like the theology of the Trinity as regards ecumenism. It's a very apt comparison to what we need to truly be one as a church.

[@chitocontreras3680]

Thank you for the 3 of you sharing your knowledge with us. One of you mentioned, Catholics don't do Life in the spirit program, are they not encouraged in the Catholic Church? Because here in Luton, there are group in the Catholic circle doing events like Life in the spirit seminar almost every year. Can you comment on this? Thank you and May God bless you and Our Lady keep you.

[@mrbaker7443]

Feeling dispirited… please pray for me

[@catholicunscripted]

Praying for you now. Peace be with you 🙏

[@MollySebastian-g9l]

Please get Gavin on the screen in full while he is speaking. I found it quite odd to see only his left eye as he spoke. It seems fine in the small screen.

[@thecrazyenglishman1066]

Maybe my memory is a little patchy, but did not Mark say in a previous video that he was going out on the street with these Baptist in a joint evangelism event?

[@tomthx5804]

As to Pope Francis always knocking traditionalists - as much as I think Francis is a lousy pope, he did have a point in TC. The traditionalists basically handed it to him. After people realized Pope Francis was awful, many decided the traditionalists offered something more real than Rome was offering. BUT - some traditionalist (FSSP) priests began knocking Vatican II during sermons on Sunday. Some began preaching the standard SSPX line that nothing in Vatican II needs to be followed. In short, they began using Summorum Pontificum as a battering ram against the magisterium itself. There was a definitive rebellious trend against Vatican II, even against JP II and Benedict sometimes. People like Taylor Marshall began saying that all FSSP priests hated Vatican II, and there WERE incidents of the TLM being weaponized against the church - as the only "decent" liturgy. Pope Francis "pounced" on that, and he used that incipient rebellion as the reason for TC. If traditionalists had all made clear the traditionalist movement was NOT against Vatican II, this might have been avoided.

[@johnoriordan789]

Thank God for the 12 step recovery program. Father Ed Dowling SJ should be a saint . I’d never have found God in the church with all this bickering and absoloutism . I try hard not to focus on the human frailty of the church , but for us newcomers it’s very confusing and I’m eternally grateful that God speaks to me through the 12 steps . I recommend all Christians to read The book ‘Alcoholics Anonymous ‘ and 12 steps and 12 traditions wether alcoholic/addict or not . There is a principle which is a bar against all information , which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

[@gerardbrady7049]

The Pope, in treating Justin Welby as a bishop, and Anglicans as Catholics, is just causing further confusion and scandal. "Hagan lio" is the Pope's real motto not "miserando atque eligendo." Personally I have always preferred "et nos credidimus caritate". It is important to remember that the Body of Christ is not divided. Throughout my life as a Catholic I have heard this said but it is not correct to say so. The Church's unity is one of the four marks it bears. The Church is one. Keep up the good work.

[@Perktube1]

As long as the Church sees itself as over the Word of God, there will be no ecumenism.

[@Honeybee-z]

Does francis think that welby actually blesses him? Its such a show.

[@HellaValley]

Isn't the Traditionalist criticism against Vatican 2 is that they quote PAUL VI that ecumenism was the at the forefront of the council and that they pretty much protesantized the Catholic church with the Novus Ordo mass. You even make protestants more catholic, or you make the catholic church more protestant. And that what they said Vatican 2 did. made the Catholic church more protestant. What say you?

[@tomthx5804]

First of all, the New Mass was NOT implemented because of what the Council said. The council did MANY things in 16 documents. Four of them were dogmatic constitutions. The document on Ecumenism was not dogmatic, was not a constitution, just a decree. So it certainly was not really at the forefront of the council no matter what some people might try to say. The Catholic church has never been "protestantized". There are some breakaway sects from Catholicism (SSPX) that like to spread a ton of lies and that is one of them.

[@lindsaymaccallum7255]

The Church is one, primarily spiritual. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Corinthians 12v 13

[@Perktube1]

By one Spirit, it doesn't say church

[@lindsaymaccallum7255]

The one body is the Church@@Perktube1

[@Perktube1]

@@lindsaymaccallum7255 and this is long before any one bishop started claiming authority over other churches.

[@lindsaymaccallum7255]

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians Chap. 2 v9 James. Peter ( Cephas) and John all seemed to be pillars; Peter is not singled out as the pillar. @@Perktube1

[@thecrazyenglishman1066]

The very first Bishop was given authority by Christ Himself - "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" ( Mat 16 v18)

[@johntaaffe4709]

Your hitting on a very good point. In my point of view, He's not a Humble, Holy, Prayerful man. 😭

[@JeremyShort-ur4cw]

Inclusivity should not be the highest priority but nevertheless Catholics and Protestants do share belief in a long list of things that the rest of the world doesn't believe at all. For me that is an important factor in how we should see one another. I do think we share a purpose in trying to further the Kingdom of God, despite institutional disunity.

[@orarerosarium]

UPDATE: Got this resolved. Tech savvy fans: I have been trying to give a one time donation, which I prefer at this time. I don’t see how to do that. I get so far, and then it indicates it has gone into recurring payment territory. If you’ve made a one time payment, would you please explain how? TIA 🙏🇺🇸

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you for your support. I can assure you that the website is set up to take any of the supporter options as a one off payment only. I’m not sure why this comes up. I’ll look into it tomorrow. Very much appreciated. Katherine 🙏

[@orarerosarium]

@@catholicunscripted Thanks. I don't understand, either. :( I'll keep trying.

[@orarerosarium]

​@@catholicunscripted I went ahead and donated and hope it was one-time/one-off. In the future, it might help if the website indicated donation as well as membership. It is a little confusing. Ah--I just checked my email, for example, and it says I ordered a one-off plan that expires in May. Maybe the wording is common in UK? As an American, the wording is not familiar at all. It doesn't make sense that a one-time/one-off payment would expire in May.

[@JeremyShort-ur4cw]

@@orarerosarium That makes as much sense in UK English as it does to you, ie not very much

[@bthemedia]

So odd to see the Catholic Church (especially under Pope Francis) becoming more Protestant/Anglican in the spirit of ecumenism… rather than restoring communion with the Eastern Catholic Church.

[@HelenDolan-i4l]

❤

[@joebollig2689]

Ecumaniacalism?

[@stuartmenziesfarrant]

Martyrs don’t die for the church, they die for their Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Btw.

[@jenyoung2473]

He said they died for the faith

[@paulcapaccio9905]

The church is Christ. He founded it

[@brucdebennett1556]

Test the spirits: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqKbaYWPZ9Wbmrc

[@leojmullins]

Ecumenism aught to be simple, but it seems to have turned into a woke mind game without Catholic good in mind. It's just another game of love is love with alphabet people.

[@johntaaffe4709]

This crazy Eucumenism of Pope Francis is a complete insult to the Martyrs and Saints. St John Fisher, St Thomas Moore St. Oliver Plunket. All These great Saints must be turning in their graves. Why did All these Women and Men die absolutely horrible deaths??? The Pope is treating them with total disrespect as if they were auld Gobshits and they died for nothing. I'm weeping, I can't imagine what these great Saints would say if they were alive today.

[@TP-om8of]

To be fair, Vatican 1 is a huge obstacle to reunion. We Catholics are going to have to ditch it..

[@patricklangan51]

Inherited them??? how very ecumenical.

[@papadan3]

sad so sad to hear a pope and witness his actions as something he dreams but clearly is in adversity to absolute Truth. dream away pope francis, unity is never a fantasy dream you seem to like putting in some action like 2 by 2 to what exactly??? shame on you