[EDH] Combos & Tutors are only boring if you are

[@33elk]

Enjoy! Let me know what you thought of the video and if you run any cool combos in your decks! Join the discord to to talk to me and the community and to get notified when I'm live: discord.gg/NBTgYG2deZ

[@thefluffymunchkin5430]

It's always important to note that a lot of magic players don't entirely care about what you're doing outside of how it effects them. I've been cut off a few times while trying to explain my combo that I think is unique or interesting by someone asking "okay so do you win?" While what you're doing is unique and interesting and fun a lot of people really just don't care outside of the fact it wins because they are just there to do their thing. Not really much you can do about that, my suggestion as a combo player is just not play with those people if you don't have a non combo deck lol.

[@thefluffymunchkin5430]

Also in terms of interactability while to the person playing the combo it may feel fair because it folds to counter, creature, and artifact removal all at once, but to the opponents it really just feels like they either have the interaction for it or don't. No matter how "interactable" it is, if they don't have it they don't have it.

[@devinayaz9210]

@@thefluffymunchkin5430 THIS. Like, people don't understand. I am not made of infinite interaction. I can only hold interaction for so many threats on the damn table. So if they held their combo after I just burnt my counter spell to stop the walking balista player, then they combo off right after....fuck me I guess, my bad for not playing infinite counterspells and infinite mana

[@devinayaz9210]

Pretty much, I spent hours in a game already trying to run the best I can on budget cards while people are trying to storm off with ashnod's altar and other things. I don't care how long or convoluted the combo is. I was essentially forced to do my best against other players try to do their own thing under the guise of "run interaction" only to lose to a "You die immediately die since you didnt have mana open"

[@33elk]

@@thefluffymunchkin5430 The "Okay so do you win?" might be the case if you have a combo that slams all the pieces down all at once but that really doesn't aptly describe anything I described in this video. By the time I'm winning with a combo I have 5-6 charge counters on an astral cornucopia. It's a real journey to get there sometimes. Alarm bells should have already been going off for you at that point. That being said, its mostly just a communication error, less a combo problem. I typically tell the table imma bout to combo off i feel that they haven't clocked in on it. Usually around the time i get my cornucopia online or establish miyogin/level up my wizard class to full. As for your "If they don't have it they don't have it" comment, this applies to the token player with 5000 creatures and no one has a board wipe as well, and no one seems really cheesed when that happens.

[@ThisNameIsBanned]

Yea the "solitaire" kind of Magic players are somewhat questionable. If they really just want to do their own thing, they could just goldfish a couple rounds. And if neither player has interaction to stop the other players, thats basically what even a 4 player table comes down to, everyone does their thing and thats it.

[@Humanfarmerman]

My favourite deck of all time is my Ashnod, Flesh Mechanist combo deck-play her T1 with a T2 Reassembling Skeleton or something similar, make tons of Powerstones, and either play artifacts or use a Bog Initiate to launder the Powerstone mana into black mana. I use all of that to pay for expensive tutors (Diabolic Tutor, Liliana Vess, Illicit Shipment) to assemble a few possible infinite combos-ALL of which require at minimum 3 cards to win and *specifically* need Ashnod's Altar to work at all. I typically tell my opponents up front that I need the Altar to win, too, since that way I can make it a game of protecting the Altar until I can actually utilize the combos. Tekuthal has similar vibes so I think you've just convinced me on the next deck I plan on building!

[@MCC17011]

I think you raise a very good point about comboing with targeted tutors vs generic ones. Not only do you have to reveal them(so everyone knows what you grabbed and can plan accordingly) but limiting what you can toolbox out makes it feel less like a skeleton key and more like a swiss army knife. I use Bring to Light to find Sevinne(or something like Urban Evolution if I already have it) not because Sevinne is going to combo off or is OP, but in Niv-Mizzet, Supreme it's great value and fun. Both also also synergize heavily with the commander, and feel good to play. I will say that I think the golden mean for combo is how much notice and window you give people. For example a 1-2 card instant combo with your commander can be hard to stop early, or may might slip through when no one has mana up for interaction. On the other hand if your combo is "I'll win next upkeep" or "I just need one more turn to win" and it's late in the game, most people should have reasonable opportunity to gang up on the player or come together to remove the problem; if not then the game was probably due to end and the player basically 3v1ed the table anyway. Similarly are combos that are a critical mass of effects, typically with aristocrats. During my first game with Endrek I won through non-deterministically casting creatures, saccing for treasures, and casting more creatures to drain the table. It was slow but I had the game at that point due to my pile of aristocrat effects. After I killed people I realized I had Endless Cockroaches in hand and could have simply short-cut the combo that way with a true infinite. In the end YMMV, but I think most people have a distaste for them because they are too associated with people negating the game and often doing so in a way that's difficult to interact with. Doing so in a way that aligns with the game and gives players a chance to stop you feels much better.

[@yeplumpybird]

catch me without my reveillark combos and that ain't me brother

[@vio1945]

Thoughts while video watching (Sorry this comment ended up really long!): In my personal opinion, most tutors sort of... feel bad to play against. If somebody just has a card in hand, then they drew their thing they need, that feels like a chance. Although tutors really just function like "extra copies" of cards, they FEEL bad, because there's a sense of "oh well they just get to pick what they get so of course they'll pick the perfect answer." There's a big difference in the hype of someone doing a big turn only to be blown out by a card someone just held in their hand, versus "hold up a minute, let me go look for my card, and now... screw you." Many tutors could be replaced by just... cards that do similar things. Instead of running tutor for your removal, just run more removal in that tutor's place. Playing weaker more "fair" combo wins might feel more interesting to play, but at the end of the day most anything that *feels* infinite (even if its not a deterministic win) is gonna be a morale hit. A lot of people just aren't excited to watch solitaire to see if they maybe get to keep playing or not. I agree that having your combos be more interactive is more fun, but you run into a problem--many combo pieces, especially those for more janky combos, don't seem all that threatening until the combo is online. If you don't tell your opponents what you're trying to do, then it comes out of nowhere anyway, even if they technically had a larger window to interact with it. Conversely, if you DO reveal "hey this is a part of my blah blah blah", people are likely to consider you more of a threat than you realistically are, because the hidden information of what's in your hand means that your combo could be right around the corner and they need to take that interaction chance while it's there. I certainly don't think all combos are the devil or anything, but I do feel like the "needs intended removal" nature of them makes them more likely to be the cause of a sudden feels bad. My playgroup mostly uses magic as an excuse to get together and chat while playing with some game actions, and at the end of the day, being "able to block" is a way to interact with the game that's inherently a part of the game, while interacting with noncreature engines requires going out of your way. What everyone enjoys is pretty specific to different playgroups, so whatever your playgroup is cool with is cool with me! We have one very combo-y player, who tends to either absolutely shred everyone or get bullied into oblivion. He's cool with it, and it works for us. I don't think I'd want to play in a pod where everyone was playing that sort of deck though, something something variety is the spice of life. I guess that's what makes pods with close friends special. Craterhoof Behemoth also sucks though!! I hate that card! I don't even think necessarily it's the card itself, as much as there's something to the like... reputation as a big "staple" the card has. It'd be like casting Ragavan, in the sense that like, "oh this person's playin' with their big expensive nonsense staples while we're over here playing with precons." Big feels bad. I liked your video!

[@joedoe7572]

Wow, thank you for writing everything I was thinking. The only point you didn't say that I was thinking was that I do consider Craterhoof Behemoth to be a combo card

[@garak55]

Hot take : combo decks aren't bad if they can be interacted with, however, combo players are the most whiny, boring people to play with. It always goes like : "nooo you're mean for attacking me! I haven't done anything yet :(" *untaps with 8 mana* "I win :)" I always police my pods with some sort of an aggro deck. If you're not commiting to the board, I will remove you.

[@533rudiger]

Geez. I play a combo deck and my friend plays combo decks. Neither of us whine. In fact, I’m usually quick to point out when I’m open to attacks. Y’all are playing against whiny people who’d probably whine if they aren’t allowed to resolve an Ojer Taq too in their token deck

[@MomirsLabTech]

Your "hot take" is just a broad sweeping generalization of an archetype player backed up with anecdotal evidence, followed by some type of white knighting about how good of a player you are since you punish these made up players for doing the thing you personally don't like? By "combo decks that can be interacted with" do you actually mean "combo decks * I * can interact with in a way * I * deem appropriate?", because as far as I know every combo can be interacted with in some way. Just say you don't like playing against combo decks dude.

[@RotatingMagnetGuy]

The whinyness is a problem with a lot of archetypes. Superfriends complaining you're killing their planewalkers, stax players complaining you started breaking their pieces before they can get a full chokehold, crazy mana decks complaining about killing their jeweled lotus or nyxthos or cabal coffers. It's more of a player problem than an archetype one.

[@533rudiger]

@@RotatingMagnetGuy This is the truth. I have a regular playgroup so this whininess is not ever a problem. Everyone tries to be the archenemy and expects to be responded to. But even the times I played strangers at LGS, I’ve not had problems with whininess, even that time I popped off with Nadu :D . Dunno, I guess I’ve been lucky. Here’s another thing to consider. I will admit that I was once a whiny and salty player but that was because I had just started and had no idea how the format is supposed to go. And when you can only muster one game a month only to end up sitting there drawing cards and not playing, it’s natural to feel a little salty. Let’s not forget that feeling salty is pretty common and a normal reaction when you start. The solution is to play more games. Some of these whiny players may just need more games under their belt. Let’s all be a positive influence for them until they get there.

[@garak55]

@@MomirsLabTech Oh it looks like I struck a nerve lol . Quite on the contrary, I love playing against combo decks in casual edh. I just aggro them out and make them watch while the rest of the table has fun. Which is incidentally what they planned to do to us with their 10 minutes non-deterministic storm turn.

[@keab42]

Another really insightful video. I've recently been trying to re-evaluate how i think about tutors and combos so this has definitely given me some things to think about. Thank you.

[@GrimoireMogri]

My favorite synergy is Kwain and Assault Suit. Mostly because it doubles down on that group hug feeling by literally passing the bunny around. It’s primarily a voltron deck but it has the feeling of a combo because to get to an ideal wincon state you have to encourage or force people to tap and/or swing with him (Vigilance or Martial/Psychic Impetus for goad), make kwain too threatening to hit with, then turn off his activated abilities with Demotion or Suppression Field so he can finish the game off. There’s a lot of politics that come out of setting him up, but I think the Voltron archetype in general has the good elements of combo and aggro without being oppressive.

[@link5236]

Hey thanks for the the tip on the podcast the question you answered was mine and going back to that video helped a lot. I’m building Narci guided by fate and I checked edhrec after I was done and found a ton of the super cool cards I pit in I wouldn’t have found just looking there.

[@peterd8251]

cool tekuthal deck! I haven't had much interest in building a combo deck before, but this changed my mind, it looks fun! and I agree about tutors. If you just tutor for the same "I win now" card every time, that's boring. I've had much more fun using tutors to get my secret commander, or a good draw engine, or a toolbox answer to a problem on the board.

[@rocknrolla7288]

Ive been eyeing this deck since i threw together a janky Tekuthal list with the goal of doing darksteel reactor in a casual pod. Daym your version looks intriguing.

[@33elk]

I considered darksteel reactor! Too slow for my meta, but i can see it being fun at the right table, definitely very fair. If you think you can pull it off 1000000% do it.

[@flosiporosi7827]

I gifted the blue teferi precon to my brother when it came out ten years ago, It has become this kind of combo deck, seeking to build up this "factory" to the point where it wins. Meanwhile, there is no hidden information, proliferate engines, walkers like yours truly or tezzeret, and the chain veil are threats that need to be dealt with

[@cwynwyn2934]

This video inspired me to finally get around to making an Agatha of the Vile Cauldron toolbox deck! I've always shied away from combo in commander after a Marwyn combo deck (my first commander deck ever) was so hated by everyone. We'll see how it goes!

[@eriks_trip]

My favorite combo deck is my turbo-jank Zurgo Helmsmasher Stuffy Doll tribal deck, where the goal is to assemble a Stuffy Doll + damage doubler + high-damage boardwipe to nail one player for 20/40/80 damage. Further enhancement with Pariah effects to redirect all damage to the Stuffy Doll, lifelink for your Dolls, and other nonsense like Inkshield make the deck very interactive while still being a combo deck looking to kill minimum one player per game. The list includes Vamp, Demonic, Enlightened, and Open the Armory, because otherwise the deck has so many moving parts and too little redundancy to get off the ground.

[@JakeFrost-e6w]

Just had an experience today where I played my Slimefoot and Squee reanimator deck. It has a combo where it can go infinite with death triggers if I have a card that makes two tokens I can loop, a mana source(either pitiless plunderer or Phyrexian Altar), and a sac outlet. I play 3 total cards that can do that in my deck, and when I went against an eldrazi player who combo'd to kingdom come through cascading, a theft deck, and a friend who also was running a combo reanimator deck, I was hated out of the game by eldrazi player and the theft player also hit me hard out of fear of me getting to my combo. All 3 of my token making pieces were exiled, and yet they kept wailing on me for playing a combo in my deck, despite the fact the eldrazi player popped off and did a huge cascade combo that drew them a million cards while also filling the board with big eldrazi. I got half my deck exiled before the game was over. The only reason my friend didn't get targeted was that they weren't as familiar with his combo deck, but they say mine pop off once. It really does show that if you play anything that isn't midrange snowball piles, you're a villain and a horrible person in a lot of player's minds...

[@carbide4458]

The main problem with combos is the players of combo decks. They typically go the route of "This is a combo deck disguised as a midrange-control deck." Then when everyone is low on resources they tutor the one card they need for their commander/tutored card to go infinite and win. Its almost always 2-3 card combos that hit from nowhere. Personal anecdote: There's a player at my LGS that joins a playgroup, rinses everyone with the combo, immediately packs up to move to different playgroup. Then repeat. Then once everyone in the store knows the combo, next month they're back with a "new deck" with a new commander... with very similar or the exact same combo cards in the "new deck."

[@dongdoodler]

The problem for me is combos out of nowhere. If you drew a bunch of cards or ramped a ton then comboed or its like turn 8+ whatever.

[@imaginarymatter]

Combos never come from nowhere though. In a 100 card singleton format the number of times you actually draw into a combo is miniscule. It takes effort to assemble the pieces, ensure you live long enough to assemble the pieces, are able to protect the pieces, etc. The effort that goes into the combo is often hidden because it's happening in the combo player's hand or some other hidden zone were the work to assemble the combo isn't apparent.

[@carbide4458]

If a part of a 3 piece combo is just the commander, that's not a lot of work. Think Yagmoth for example. The answer is, "smite him every single time he hits the board, and hope they can't instant speed combo over your removal." ​@imaginarymatter

[@qarsiseer]

I get what you’re saying! The main deck I’ve been playing is a Klothys deck that can use Temur Sabertooth to make infinite mana with 1) something that gives haste, 2) a creature that untaps lands, and 3) a land that taps for 3+ mana. It has enough points that people know what to look out for and I get to figure out how to protect it. It’s good!

[@roguelikerabbit]

Fun and interesting video! I know for me I don't run a combo deck per say. That being said I do run lots of combos in my decks but not really a lot of tutors. I think my most offensive deck may be my Kwain, Itinerant Meddler deck mainly because it does run Bruvac and Maddening Cacophony but it's more of a back up win condition if anything. Overall I am fine with combos unless it's turn 1-3. GG Shake my hand type of stuff. Of course it still stings sometimes but I think its fine for the game because sometimes you need it to get through board stalemates. But again very fun video!

[@AntonioBaker-q4o]

My challenge for myself personally was to make a mono blue deck without tutors, and I decided on fblthp lost on the range and now it’s a part of my identity

[@jmillrod]

I have an Ayara deck with a few of the obvious combos, but my favorite is comboing Prowling Geistcatcher and Phyrexian delver with a sac outlet, Ayara and one other creature. It creates an infinite loop that drains out the table by sacrificing all of the creatures under the Geistcatcher and then recurring the Geistcatcher with the Delver. Ayara’s lifegain neutralizes the life loss from Delver. If you can throw more creatures under the Geistcatcher, it goes net positive and you get all of the ETBs. It’s hard to pull off, but always ends with people saying they’ve never seen it before or that’s it’s really unique.

[@SwillTheBoss]

I recently built a proliferate cube, and these exact charge counter pieces are a great archetype! Mixes very well with the MH2 boros modular creatures too. I may have to build this deck or one similar

[@eebbaa5560]

i haven’t played magic in a while, but i was really struggling with this dilemma a while back when thinking about my inalla deck. it’s just a modified precon, so it’s not well-built and quite weak, but i was really wondering if the pinnacle of the deck was really just to run a few infinites and call it a day. it really blackpilled me on inalla, who was my first commander, and combo decks as a whole. thanks for providing a fresh perspective on this issue; hopefully i can take something away from it.

[@ratska96]

I have a combo deck with magar, of the magic strings as the head. Pretty standard combos, I try to reanimate rise of the eldrazi or Savage Beating with magar, take infinite combat steps or turns to beat people down with them. Most of the rest of my deck is setup, interaction and value. The goal is to try and set up some combination of a source of unblocable, haste and something to get the piece I need in my graveyard. Alot of the deck is trying to stop other people from winning before I'm set up and I also tend to try to announce that I'm going for a win the turn before I do. Like with alot of combo decks I think it suffers from brewers advantage. My friends who know the deck know how and when to interact with the deck to stop it but communicating that to rando's so it doesn't feel unfair is hard but I've been getting better at it.

[@Backupheals]

my lonest running deck is my ghave aristacombo deck and good god is it fun watching people try to find out how all the junk junk works together

[@kal2045]

Got a list? I tried to build a ghave deck like this but it just feels so clunky and I've been stuck on it a while

[@battynerd]

I used to be completely anti combo, but at this point I view them as a necessary evil, sometimes a game needs an out to actually end and sometimes an opponent pillow forts up too heavily and there's no reasonable way to interact anymore. I do think the easier to disrupt a combo is the less bad it feels to lose to though!

[@LizCD331]

I've always been attracted to combos but often have trouble when I realize the combo I've build is a deterministic win, so I scrap it. A combo deck that might not count as one is a Calamity, Galloping Inferno deck. Calamity is a criminally underrated commander in my opinion because of its ability to give pseudo-haste, its ability to double up on ETB triggers, and more importantly, attack triggers. The line to victory often involves ramping to 6 mana, getting a value card like charming scoundrel, plundering barbarian, patron of the arts, solemn simulacrum, or circuit mender onto the battlefield --> get Calamity in and swing in with a saddled value piece to get ahead in cards or mana --> then drop down a burn creature like boilerbilges, agate instigator, molten gatekeeper, or goblin chainwhirler (which is a surprisingly good boardwipe with Calamity) or drop an extra combats creature. The deck wants to end the game or at least knock some people out on the turn it commits these resource to board, but because Calamity is 6 Mana in Mono-Red, and its combo-pieces will often be around 3-6 mana as well, there's plenty of time for sorcery speed interaction to shut the play down. It's important to note that it can't burn each opponent for 40 damage in a single go without other pieces on board (Eg. Calamity saddled by a non-token Agate Instigator that had its offspring cost paid while Purphoros is on field) and the Infinite combats only close the game if there's ETB burn on the field or if nobody is able to kill Calamity during the turn. In a sense it's more of an aggro-deck, but instead of one that tries to rush the board on early turns, it tries to ramp into an explosive win turn around turn 7 (as early as turn 5 when it's popping off hard and has enough mana through something like Extraplanar Lens) I also really like seeing Myojin mentioned since I've been building a Roalesk, Apex Hunter deck and a main theme of the deck is cloning Roalesk so he's sac'd to the legend rule and Myojin is, if Roalesk isn't on board, the strongest card to do that with (Honorable mention to aggressive Biomancy though since that can function like a boardwipe with all the fight triggers.)

[@RoflCannon6]

See I’m gonna be real with you here, this is a super long read and that’s probably why people don’t like going against combo players. It’s like getting a prize after every time you lose but that prize is a 5-10 minute math lecture.

[@LizCD331]

@@RoflCannon6 It isn't an overly long math lecture though? My long explanation is me explaining how the deck has multiple avenues of victory and how it has lots of cards that fulfil different purposes (ramp, card draw, extra combats, and burn). It's a deck that will very quickly end the game once its in a winning position if nobody has the right answers. The ending isn't a lecture in math, it's me declaring either "I have functionally infinite combats because Port Razor/Combat Celebrant/Bloodthirster, does anyone has a response or have I won the game." or "By copying Agate Instigator/Molten Gatekeeper/Sunspine Lynx/Terror of the Peaks with Calamity, I deal enough damage to close the game." and it's over. It really feels like you didn't actually read my deck breakdown because I highlight how the deck is set back, and how it's color identity is in and of itself a challenge the deck faces. In my personal opinion, any deck primer or explanation of a commander deck is going to be longwinded because how else are you meant to explain 100 unique cards and their interactions with one another?

[@giacomopagliaro1729]

I made a jolly balloon man deck that I enjoy a lot. It'a deck filled with combos but with only two tutors for creatures, also the combos are mostly creature based, and since I don'run many protection I push people to play an interaction to play with me. Also I the cards are useful even out the combo, so they can't expect how the next combo can be made, I'm still finding new ones while plying the deck and it'a key factor that made me love the deck and the people around appreciate how I made the deck. At the end I think that a combo deck need to have a second face other than that to be appreciate, like mine is a tool box that take advantage cloning creature with good etbs, death triggers or attack triggers and I don't run token duplicators or untapping artifacts, this way I'm not oppressive anyway and people don'targets me the moment I play something.

[@quadeflanders7905]

This video is a window to my brain. Demonic tutor is the most bland card ever because it's always the best card in any given situation. But narrow tutors let me feel clever both during gameplay and deckbuilding. And I despise 2 card combos. Not playing against them, I'll play against anything, but playing with them just sucks the soul out of my play experience. I have a Kodama and Tormod combo list I have dubbed "The Rot Engine." And I've got a netherborn Phalanx in there to transmute into my 6 mana card draw engines. And my combos are anywhere between 3 and 6 cards. It's a blast to play. Also, apologies for the paragraphs. Your channel is among the few I currently watch because you draw out my love of the game in a way few do nowadays.

[@June_lt3]

4:16 my worlds are colliding

[@TheMEGAJCB]

While I agree that a deck having a combo or being combo-centric doesn't make it unfun by default (as long as it adjusts to the powerlevel of the table), I think that the concept of "fun combos" or "unfun combos" is highly subjective. Having said that, almost all of my decks (even if they are not geared towards being a combo deck) have at least a combo as a "nuclear button" option. Just in case they pop up during a long ass game, since most of the time I would need quite a lo of time to come across all the pieces. But within my combo focused decks I'd say that my Orvar the All Form deck is the most fun one. It allows to weaponize cards that normally wouldn't really be considered game ending threats such as a Sunscorched Desert, a Caged Sun or a Venser, Shaper Savant. All along while using the most random cantrip style spells ever: Thermal Flux, Whim of Volrath, Moonlace... It's even funnier if my opponents are not used to the deck, since (as I always announce when I am playing a combo focused deck) they get completely thrown off balance by the weird cards and struggle trying to figure out what's a genuine threat or just a value engine. Edit: Improved readability

[@33elk]

Yeah, "Unfun Combos" Isn't a scientific term here, just a label for the combos I was talkin' about earlier in the video. Nuclear button option is good, but its not the dynamics i was looking for for a combo-centric deck.

[@TheMEGAJCB]

@@33elk Of course, the nuclear button dynamic is reserved for more casual decks in my case. The dynamic for my combo-centric decks (such as the mentioned Orvar deck) is rather different and my approach is quite simmilar to yours, valuing flexibility and a tool box approach along consistency. Talking about that, I think you didn't mention it in your video, but another great blue tutor (especially with a bit of top manipulation) that's rather unknown is Long-Term Plans. In case you don't run it already, I think it could be a great addition to your Tekuthal deck!

[@chummer2060]

I have Temur Omnath as my combo deck. It's retreat to coralhelm + a creature that taps to put a land into play + bounce land. Spitfire lagac or some landfall finisher. Finding tutors was tough, but Parallel Thoughts is actually pretty fun. There's interactions and bluffing involved.

[@commanderpower99]

I think giving yourself some restraints in deck building can become really fun as well. I feel comboing off is like a puzzle, and I love puzzles. I agree with you that having combos with several pieces/layers makes them more fun. I also have a self restraint that my combo decks need to involve my commander. I don't do one-card combos like Ob Nixilis//All will be one. But a combo would need to win with 1)several pieces and 2) my commander. Third restraint: a combo piece needs to have a huge synergy with my deck. This rules out Thoracle/DC combos (just as an example).

[@pastelcia42]

I don’t care if my opponents use tutors and combos, but I personally took almost all of them out of my decks because I got bored of the decks and games being too predictable every time. I found they became more enjoyable to play, because now I have to actually think and make decisions that matter at every step of the game, and not just wait for a way to start and protect one of the combo lines the deck has.

[@michaeltodd343]

My Goldberry, River-Daughter deck is very similar to your Tekuthal deck (in fact, Tekuthal is in the 99). I made the personal rule that there wouldn't be any extra turns, so I had to get... tricky. My favorite combo is what I call the "Infinite Himbo Glitch", and it's a real mess. I need to have Tekuthal, Ichormoon Gauntlet, at least one source of Proliferation, and Jace, Cunning Castaway in play. It goes like this: 1. Proliferate once 2. Tekuthal doubles it 3. Jace, now at 5 loyalty, uses -5 to make two identical Jace tokens at 3 loyalty 4. Using the "0: Proliferate" loyalty ability provided by Ichormoon, one Jace Proliferates 5. Tekuthal doubles that Proliferate 6. The other token Jace, now at 5, uses the -5, making two fresh Jaces. 7. Repeat steps 4-6 for infinite Proliferate triggers and an endless supply of Shirtless Pirate Jace tokens. Does this win on its own? No- you either need Darksteel Reactor, or another Planeswalker with Luxior equipped, or some Lux Artillery shenanigans for it to even matter. Is it easy? Hell no, it's a 4+ card combo that happens exclusively at sorcery speed. Is it fun? Absolutely.

[@Quasikaotick]

I feel like this is the place to mention the most heinous combo I've seen recently that I hadn't already heard of elsewhere. Queza, Augur of Agonies and Marina Vendrell's Grimoire. I just.. "I draw my entire deck. Also you die."

[@zansumkai]

My favorite aspect of Commander (and Magic in general) is how very different strategies can interact with each other in the same game. The combo player is the mad wizard building a doomsday machine, and i really love the times I've been able to throw a bunch of interaction into the mess right as the countdown timer reachers 0.1 And yeah often the combo goes off and we die but that's not usually interesting enough to remember, so why worry about it? Just play again and sandbag something with Split Second! That'll usually get their ghost 😁

[@esconde9922]

surely a combo around odric, blood cursed revolving around enough keywords to make enough blood to loop flickering with eldrazi displacer through krark clan ironworks and reckless fireweaver can be seen as entertaining at least with the steps you need to assemble it and it's still pretty vulnerable

[@ghvtrf]

great video! I've tried making dice factor in mono black with fain the broker, using most of the same engines and combo's but it just didn't function without resorting to demonic/vampiric/grim/etc. I'm definitely trying again in mono blue now 😁 edit:just checked your list, looking good. i recommend mirage mirror and try to get as much charge counters on it, then stack it's changing abilities 👌

[@sirjesterful7947]

My favorite deck is Alesha, Who Smiles at Death at the helm of a turbo reanimator / combo list. Tons of discards, graveyard recursion, and creatures wity power 2 or less. with the goal of infinite etb/death triggers with multiple payoffs. My favorite of which is Karmic Guide/Revillark on Gonti OR any random creature to cast Bitter Ordeal and exile every card in my opponents libraries.

[@addambarcelos]

Tekuthal seems really fun to play. If I had to pick a mono blue commander, he would probably be on top of priority.

[@christianroot6287]

you shouls try memnarch! its a mono blue deck with some really strong synergy and it has a lot of fun play patterns

[@addambarcelos]

@@christianroot6287 interesting, but not sure my playgroup would like mono blue stealing stuff

[@christianroot6287]

@@addambarcelos i feel like its generally fair considering its a base 14 mana investment but sometimes people get mad at the result (their stuff stolen) and not the setup so i get that

[@ryanrodgers3099]

Love the deck. Seems like you have a ton of directions that you can go in any given game. My only concern about Magistrate's Scepter is those non-deterministic wins. Nothing sucks the wind out of an EDH game like someone playing an extra turn spell, or several, without having a guaranteed win in hand. Have you found that to be the case? Or are people more chill with it given the hoops you've jumped through? For my own combo decks, my only "true combo" deck is Ramos, Dragon Engine with Theros gods. Basically just trying to stick The World Tree and crack it, order the gods hitting the field in the right order so that the table gets killed through a combination of Purphoros 2-damage triggers and hasty gods. The interesting part of piloting it is figuring out the timing to do everything you need for the combo without Ramos getting removed a million times. Sometimes I also draw gods (either of the Purphoroses) that *need* to be on the field for me to win with the combo, so I might have to delay or play around things a certain way to make sure the combo actually gets the job done instead of creating a neat looking board for a turn before getting Farewell'd into the shadow realm. I run a ton of multi-color interaction, much of which is kind of sub-optimal, but gets Ramos a ton of counters to use for the World Tree or fueling interaction on other people's turns. The deck is janky and needs a lot more refinement, but is fun to play when it's going.

[@33elk]

The only “problem” like this in the deck is inexorable tide with magistrate’s scepter, and it happens maybe like 1 in 15 or so games so it’s not too bad. If i have infinite turns my deck wins deterministically.

[@robertomacetti7069]

my favorite combo ever doesn't even win, it puts the deck in the command zone how is that bad? i mean, it's garbage but not in that sense

[@robertomacetti7069]

for the curious a mutate commander + leadership vacuum + manifest your library powered by giving everything flash, infinite mana, and copy your shit so you can use the copies to manifest the actual cards

[@garak55]

@@robertomacetti7069 you are a very special boy

[@robertomacetti7069]

@@garak55 i'll choose to take that as a compliment

[@zanderfus2723]

Not my tayam lands deck with the good old "one-two" zuran orb, tireless provisioner, afteath analyst, spelunking, field of the dead, tayam luminous enigma, iridescent vinelasher combo for the win

[@makesquash]

My rule for combos and tutors is that they have to be unique to the deck. I run Gamble and Increasing Ambition in my Kess list because they get an extra boost from playing into the graveyard. The main wincon is getting Lord of the Forsaken onto the battlefield and casting an X spell like Cut // Ribbons from my graveyard. It requires a lot of setup and has a lot of interaction points so its very fun to pull off. Another one is Yennett where the only tutor in the deck is Varragoth Bloodsky Sire. I have a vampiric tutor i I could slot into the list but that would hamstring what makes the deck fun to play.

[@Quarter_Turn]

This is a great video! I was wondering how to integrate combos in a way that would be fun and interesting for everybody at the table.

[@ManicLink]

This is similar to the philosophy I've had with my Falco Spara combo deck I'm trying to tune and build. Lots of tutors and trying to maximise the parts of combos that can overlap from each, with cool added value from top of deck tutors because of my hero unit's ability. Combos are usually infinite tokens with rosie cotton / scurry oak / basking broodscale. Or using senseis top + devoted druid / a cost reducer and something like flux capacitor / managorger hydra proliferating prologue to phyresis counters or 1/1 counters. It's tricky to build so far and I haven't got that many games with it yet, but I have hope I can turn into a fun and thematic combo deck

[@wolpertinger4527]

I'm pers currently building my decks without tutors and combos. I do like your approach to them better then the instant "i win" ∞-combo.

[@marcoottina654]

I basically have this same deck, with few modifications, as a 60-card format. I love it! I used Grindclock to easily acquire counters to move with Power Conduit and Lux Cannon to perform some thematic removal. I love it :D I run one "Hanna, Ship's Navigator" as a means to retrieve from the graveyard the artifacts, some draws like Thoughtcast and Thoughts Monitor, mana cost reductors and "Drafna" to do some cloning. I love the Silver Moonkey :D I always overlooked at it, but its ability to grab LANDS (artifact ones) and Astral Cornucopia is fantastic :D with recursion, it IS a value pieces :D I'll probably run a Jeskay clone-enhanced charge-counter-focused deck this way :D

[@xenocross6597]

The pods I play with at my LGS see commander as “How many atrocities can we commit in one night”, and it’s not even necessarily high power, it can be incremental value or silly goofy jank and “oops that’s Karn, Liberator’s -14 going off” or “The otter deck got Bria out, people gonna start dropping dead” or “Oh, I removed Prossh and all the kobolds by turning them into pigs. Oh they just cast Hellion Eruption”, so combos, even “Ok I win” combos are seen as typical. I mean one of the people there has a Purphoros goblin deck which has been colloquially known as “Mickey Mouse commits genocide” ever since he stormed off into Empty the Warrens while doing the voice The attitude is very much “Is the combo funny? Yes? Let’s hear it. Is it an ‘I win’ button? Cool, game two”

[@ribbontoast]

I have a Goldberry deck with Tekuthal in it and combo wins are like, 5 card ridiculous Rube Goldberg machines and I love it.

[@33elk]

@@ribbontoast A KNOWER

[@7maGic094]

I made something called the toad infinite. Morgue Toad, Orthion hero of Lavabrink, and Freed from the Real. Morgue toad sacs itself to make a red and a blue mana, 2 per. Orthion makes 5 copies for 9 mana. Freed from the Real utaps him for one blue. I play it in my grixis combo with Cormela at the helm. I just get a tutor and sac piece in opening hand and loop cormela to try and search out these pieces along with an outlet for the win. Best outlet pieces are impact tremors or zulaport cutthroat.

[@docopoper]

Combo decks are great. They just need to be telegraphed and interactable, like the face up combos you mentioned. It can be really ominous to see a combo assembled, which is fun. I've also had games where a player kept building up energy and everyone started freaking out about how much energy they'd accumulated without us even knowing what it was for. That stuff is fun. If a combo comes out of nowhere to win the game it's like ending a movie without any foreshadowing of the means by which it ended.

[@gwynjustice6664]

My ashnod the uncaring deck is pretty much like that. Setting up tons of artifacts and death recursion pieces with ETG damage effect is spooky and every one is wondering “what’s he gonna do?” Then the time sieve drops and every one in unison goes “ohhhh that’s what he’s gonna do”

[@LaRenuille]

Been watching your stuff for a while but I figured I'd sub for the +1 and leave a comment :D. I'm on the neutral side with combos but it's because I used weird jank crap that does not win me the game that's why this jives with me. I define combo like a standard player defines synergy.

[@Cybertech134]

I have a Syrix Phoenix tribal deck and it's only a "combo" deck because I decided to slot in one Worldgorger Dragon with no other changes to the rest of the 98, and it makes sense being a red flying creature like most other creatures in the deck. Without that one card, it's an aggro-burn deck. Combos suck and are boring unless it's actually on-theme and you're not tailing your entire deck to pull it off. They're cool when not the main focus of your deck.

[@chemnao4009]

I'm starting to build a Codie, Vociferous codex that wins by cheating a Door to Nothingness into play then copies it's activated ability twice in order to make all the opponents lose at the same time. It's an interesting challenge because of Codie "no permanent" restriction: I need to use tinker like effects in order to cheat the Door from the deck, or have a way to remove my commander in order to hardcast it, and there exist only 3 non permanent spell cards that can copy activated ability (one of which even requires to roll dice to copy the effect!) so I need extra copy effects in order to copy those. Also the combo needs 10 mana to activate the Door+at least 5 to copy the ability twice and don't get me started on the Door coming into play tapped... The deck might be easier to build with a commander other than Codie, but I like building with restriction an also Codie gives some help to the gameplan: its cascade like effect can give me more ramp and card draw for every spell I cast and makes it so any 1 cost spell becomes a tutor with profane tutor and he is an artifact for Creativity-like effects to find the Door. Sure he can randomly flip a combo piece and ruin all my plans, but it fits pretty well with the "mad mage building a doomsday device" feel I'm going for for the deck. (And also, I have Regrowth, so maybe it was all going according to plan anyway) I just hope my opponents will find the as funny as I do^^

[@avall0nNn1992]

Good combos are super fun. You don't habe to reinvent the wheel, you just have to play at the right tables. High power games with a lot of interaction on the stack can be totally awesome. The issue is that every player in the pod needs decks at the same powerlevel for it to be interesting.

[@rats_and_lilies]

My favorite and most successful combo deck is my Syr Ginger deck where I run several different combos that all just so happen to be good in the deck in a vacuum. Myr retriever loops, KCI/Ashnod's Altar, Nim Deathmantle stuff. Sure, I run the Ginger, KCI, Animation Module combo, but it's not my only combo, plus I have a small voltron package if I can't seem to get a combo online

[@ThisNameIsBanned]

Urza's Saga can ONLY find explicit 0 or 1 mana artifacts, not converted manacost, but actual manacost. So you cannot find X, you cant find artifact lands, you cant find Esper Sentinel, it has to be 0 or 1 colorless mana and nothing else.

[@33elk]

Yeah I know, you can find the everflowing chalice though if you need a charge rock. I just happened to group it with the other cheap mv tutors for convenience

[@Y00bi]

The answer to combos is interaction and we don't do that here. Although I do have to say I don't like having a combo piece sit on the board. Maybe it's my pod but any time I play out one of my combo pieces in my golgari deck it gets instantly removed even if they know I don't have the other pieces in hand on field. It just leads to me doing everything on one turn anyway when everyone is tapped out.

[@christianroot6287]

My favorite tutor by far is Moonsilver Key. it has such a steep restriction, but it makes for creative building and it's a cheap commitment to the board

[@grip7777]

Tutors are boring if you use them for wincons at every point. The deck I own with tutors currently is elminster, and I have solve the equation and mystical tutor in that deck. I also have approach of the second sun and a couple of extra turn spells though the deck is probably not able to do infinite turns in my current build. I usually use solve the equation as a tutor for removal or wipes and use mystical tutor for elminsters ability. I have considered enlightened tutor in the deck as well to grab scroll rack or intangible virtue but I havent done so yet because I don't want the deck to be that consistent at the current powerlevel. If I would have used each tutor in the deck for extra turns or approach then the table would have to focus me down before winning with the approach or counter my extra turns instead of the deck being the azorious control deck that I wanted to play in EDH.

[@crashka5860]

just finished revising my muldrotha list, and holy this commander goes infinite with a ham sandwich. but my combos of choice all require around 4 cards on board to win. this is because the deck lacks the big beaters of most graveyard decks and instead focuses on control using the commanders unparalelled card advantage to win in the late game. my "main" wincon is a 4 card combo with the commander, kaya's ghostform, lotus petal, altar of demntia or replace the altar with another free sac outlet and on of the effects that creates a token on creatures leaving the graveyard

[@joemontondo9113]

The only deck I run multiple tutors in is my very silly Goats Turbo Boros deck. All of the tutors exist to find specifically Springjack Shepherd.

[@jameskearney5677]

I have been brewing my own mono Blue combo deck with Arcanis the Omnipotent. Same concept where it has several parts but, it is a combo deck

[@Cloudflux-q7q]

Guys, guys wake up 3/3 Elk posted!!!

[@Sageofthewoods098]

Its only kind of a combo deck but I really enjoy my Shigengar deck. I use entomb like cards to put a bunch of angels and mirkwood bats into the graveyard then use shilgengar to living death them all onto the battlefield then sac all the angels to shilgengar to hit everyone with mirkwood bats. It's a very silly and ineffecient way to win but I like it.

[@koboldqueen3055]

My krark ishai deck runs lots of tutors. I use them to pull thumb form my deck and also pull out what even sorcery or instant I need.

[@yserareborn]

I dunno, I agree with all your points here, but I think maybe the issue for combo is the ceiling? At least at certain tables. I mean, instead of always trying to win the game, players could gun for a lot of cool synergies that generate good boards but don’t end the game then and there.

[@BubbleMoth]

I’m in! And from the server!! (First)

[@Sushi4Tetra]

Great video and good thoughts also :3 keep it up

[@geoffreywampach2588]

Maybe now I can put my Ring of three wishes into a deck!

[@Scherezad_]

I've been looking for a way to remodel my Jace deck that doesn't feel so... polaric. This may be the route I take, albeit with a difference in commanders. I'm committed to the ORI flipwalkers.

[@zansumkai]

I do like having a tidy combo inside a deck to give me multiple lines i can go down, like Magus of the Coffers and Staff of Domination. If you let the evil wizard have the staff of ultimate power what did you expect to happen?!

[@SwedeRacerDC]

This looks like a pretty fun deck. I have a mono blue Vhal+Clan Crafter deck and I think it's fun to play, but it also has people try to kill me because they know it's all about combos. In reality, I could win through commander damage, but people always try to take me down and I have to combo off with it or be taken out of contention. Let's face it, some people just don't like when others take 10 minutes turns, and they like this less than they like 2 card combos. There's no pleasing everyone, but I would encourage the two card people to go play cEDH and the casual people to include a better interaction suite if they find themselves helpless too often. Of course, if either of the other 2 players are lacking in this department, then the players who have enough may burn through it too quickly trying to keep the game going. The increasing number of board wipes being played lately has me thinking the only way to play is to combo somehow so that you don't get dealt with. Even Craterhoof and go wide is a combo. Voltron is combo into commander damage kills. These kinds of combos just have an extra step to stop them called combat.

[@jean-baptistedelabroise5391]

Tayam is a very interesting combo deck but it's like a puzzle and if you don't know the deck very well it can be very boring for your opponent watch you try to figure out if you are infinite or not there yet

[@yserareborn]

For the record, I can’t judge since your deck sounds like it plays a lot like my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck. I built it to use Scion as a toolbox that can also set up specific dragons to end the game with Patriarchs Bidding or Last March of the Ents.

[@noise.s]

I think I only have one dedicated combo deck and that's Meria, mycosynth golem ancestral statue, infinite mana with Meria and cards or damage with an untapper like traxos or a pinger like reckless fireweaver, and with shared summons as my only tutor the few times I played it if it won it didn't win with it but with aetherflux. It's definitely more stormy and I should probably lean into that since I enjoy it more. Other decks have combos in them if they fit the theme but I'm not looking for them. Obeka can have infite turns by copying archaeomancer and recurring the 2 mana extra spells, and Taii Wakeen which has boros reckoner in it and if I make it indestructible with just a ping and 1 pumped into Taii it kills a player, but they are slow have many pieces no tutoring and built into the incremental advantage or theme in the deck. Synergies like energy stuff in liberty prime I didn't even know about before researching combos in my decks for this comment. My first deck was Shorikai and had a few tutors and scepter combo and it was the first and only deck I ever scrapped, probably cause it was way too strong for my liking. I'm open to building something like your Tekuthal but I need to be struck by inspiration and for combo hasn't happened yet.

[@jonpiest4648]

I hate playing combo decks because if i wanted a consistent wincon I'd play another format, but I love playing AGAINST combo decks. Their pilots make such delightful sounds when I play Hive Mind.

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

Is it just me or is there a disconnect with being against tutors but being okay with land ramp?

[@ColeTrainStudio]

Commander is the only format is can think of where having a better deck is looked down upon.

[@Cybertech134]

Almost like the goal of EDH isn't to have the best deck or something. Shocker.

[@MrRomanrin]

i like the idea of this deck! FULL PROLIFERATE and combo it looks fun.

[@devinayaz9210]

the issue with tutors is that it makes the deck feel stale. The deck's goal is to just get very certain cards to work. An obvious example is "if you need tutor for Craterhoof to win the game, don't play the deck". In terms of Snail's video. Their resiliant decks with Sharuum where almost all the of the cards in the deck fit a theme and can stand on their own and bounce back if X is interrupted. Thats a more fun deck to fight, because you don't feel bad for answering a threat and the person isn't just twiddling around like "well shit...there goes my combo and everything, gg"

[@33elk]

@@devinayaz9210 Yeah this is a valid point if my tutors were broad but my tutors all grab different pools of cards in this deck and also there are multiple combo lines instead of just one like your “i need craterhoof” example. Simply put, the deck has never played out the same way twice because the combo lines are all varied.

[@xeoknight845]

This inherently isn't fair as their entire deck is a cycling deck. My Naya Yuma, Proud Protector deck would be basically useless without tutors as the two things which would let me use my commander as a draw engine, desert-specific (or nonbasic) ramp and card draw, are pretty sparce if I'm not willing to run cards like esper sentinel or the one ring. If your deck has blue or your commander is a draw engine, or if your theme inherently draws loads of cards like cycling, you can get away with less tutors.

[@devinayaz9210]

@@xeoknight845 Run alternate sources of gas. You are in red green, you can get things like case of the locked hot house to help get lands from the top and creatures/enchants as well. If the deck is useless without tutors, then thats a poorly built deck. If someone counters your tutor, then what? scoop?

[@xeoknight845]

@@devinayaz9210 Yeah, if someone drops a rhystic study and then my deck without blue gets its tutor countered, probably scooped lmao. Nice example!

[@AirshipFury]

I'm pro-combo even if I myself don't play combos. I especially like them if they're infinite damage combos that wipe out all opponents. The only time I feel a little salty is if it's an "i win" combo like thoracle since our life totals barely change and the one that combo'd out just spent 10-40mins playing solitare.

[@EllisDiva]

I’m in the camp that you should only play tutors/search effects if you also promote quick play and are proficient at shuffling 😂 I don’t want to sit and watch you struggle to find your pieces and drop your cards while you tutor for the third time and go “ope forgot to crack my fetch.” If you can do that all degenerate strats are on the table, and what really is magic if you’re not playing a degenerate strategy? That’s my favorite part!

[@markpan]

Tekuthal enjoyer 👍

[@nikitajohnson9561]

Urza’s Saga can’t tutor Astral Cornucopia.

[@33elk]

It can get everflowing chalice tho

[@nikitajohnson9561]

@@33elk true

[@domsilvestri8681]

Shoutout to Teferi, Time Raveler and Displacer Kitten 😍

[@svenvannimwegen4936]

I like doomsday piles. If it works you win. If it fails you probably loose.

[@curtissearle6462]

I don't mind if others play combos. I just don't play them because I find combos kinda boring. But tutors on the other can be very fun.

[@jaysuede2627]

Never write off style points. The difference between the common and the super is presentation.

[@cameton_youtube]

Preach elk, preach

[@tertmemelur1880]

who else now in an existential crisis trying to know whether their combo decks are boring ?

[@ethanparis480]

Tutors are fine in my opinion. Lightpaws, however, is a ridiculous commander and every list plays almost identically. if Lightpaws is uncontested it can snowball out of control in one turn and dominate the game. When I kill it turn 3 when they attempt to enchant her then the Lightpaws player is just out of the game. It’s a lose lose situation.

[@33elk]

i have deep seeded urge to build a 40$ lightpaws deck I have unlisted on moxfield. Its just pariah combo and probably not that unique. i dont care i like how she works with the 3 oblivion ring auras we have, its a funny play pattern.

[@ethanparis480]

@@33elk That actually sounds fun! Wish I could run into your Lightpaws list.

[@33elk]

@@ethanparis480 www.moxfield.com/decks/u7_iDGIDvkO4ye-V8-TS-g

[@ArceusShaymin]

I feel like after chewing on my feelings for it a long time, I don't think the overall conversation of whether a combo is "face up" or "interactable" is what gets me. I just don't feel good when a deck is blown out of the game by a single card, and combo decks *tend* towards this direction a lot. Sure, it's kinda not fun to lose to a Consultation/Thoracle on the stack for the umpteenth time, for example, but it's also not fun to BEAT it, either. Stifle the Thoracle and now they're either left with literally nothing and lose on the spot or they had protection and they win on the spot. It's just anticlimax all around. It's a more common mantra being thrown around now that your deck should be "fun to lose to" but I also just think your deck should be "fun to win against" as well. Combo decks that fold like a house of cards to a single interaction point, even when they're silly Rube Goldberg machines that take 12 face-up cards, are just as bad as the ones that win with 2 hidden cards and fold to a single counterspell, IMO - except now *I* look rude for prematurely blowing up the cool homemade IED before it gets planted in my backyard. I personally love to have grind games in my pods. If all it takes is a single boardwipe to ruin the token player's deck, or a single counter to unravel a whole combo, then it doesn't really feel like I did more than "drew the out". When it happens due to the player CHOOSING to overcommit, that's a different story, but if their deck just cannot handle a single interaction, then it feels like there's no choice at all. Ultimately, though, at the end of the day I don't have an issue as long as the player themselves don't have an issue. If they're the kind of person who likes to play fragile decks and they don't mind being blown out when their threat is responded to, then that's fine, even if I don't always feel good about it.

[@cadhan]

I like combos because they encourage more interaction. and not just board state building. I understand that this is subjective but spending 2-3 cards to answer a threat is less efficient than just spending 2-3 cards and winning... toolbox commanders that wrap their combo around answering threats is the perfect middle.

[@cadhan]

like pretending someone resolves a tooth and nail entwined for 9 mana and shouldn't win the game/setup to win the game is silly.

[@traycarrot]

Honestly, play what you like. I like combo decks that are dedicated to the combo. It feels intentional. Dying because the Derevi Bird Tribal or Malcolm Pirate Tribal randomly drew their 1-of combo kill is so whack, though.

[@martinheraud1744]

I think any win where you can only respond at instant speed without having any clue is not very fun. That's why vamp tutor into combo with the commander is anticlimactic. But if you have the combo on board and you let it untap well GG :D

[@Trainwreck12315]

The Argument for Cheap 2 mana or less Tutors in EDH is much like the argument for Firearm ownership, it's basically do you trust the Average person with a Demonic Tutor or a Pistol and well that's all I'm going to say

[@joemontondo9113]

Can my Tayam deck go infinite? In theory, yes. Does doing so require an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine of Thallids? Also yes.