EEVblog

PART 1: • EEVblog #127 - PCB Des...
PART 3: • EEVblog #552 - DFM Aut...
A follow up to Dave's popular PCB Design For Manufacture (DFM) tutorial video.
This time he updates his uCurrent PCB for production, including panelisation layout and component reel selection. Lots of the same ground is covered as in part 1, but with a specific real project example.

[@EEVblog]

@valajbeg This is non-scripted stream-of-consciousness stuff. I do not realise how much I'm saying or how often I repeat things or say umm or mumble until I go to edit all the clips. If it's too long then I'm not going to go back and re-shoot for succinctness. If I did that then I'd never get any videos out.

[@autofigure00]

This series is exactly the stuff I want to know that my college doesn't teach and that I can barely find information online for the common / standardized details and such. Thank you IMMENSELY for sharing all of your knowledge in SUCH specific detail and insight.

[@magicphysicsdude]

While watching this, a thought occurred to me. There is another cost that you didn't include for high volume production. Storage! You can't expect to make 10,000 boards and just stick them in your bedroom closet or something, you have to have somewhere to put them. If there are enough of them, you may even need to rent space in a warehouse or something. I doubt most viewers are in the range where storage becomes a significant issue, but it just popped into my head while watching this.

[@tylerhackett3083]

This depends on how you're selling your boards. If you sell your product yourself then you're absolutely right. But if you use a reseller, they'll likely hold atleast some of your product in their own warehouse.

[@Stabby666]

This is definitely important if you are getting a lot of boards sent to you for programming, or some other end-process like through hole soldering some parts. It's amazing how quickly the weight adds up too!

[@yeet1337]

You underestimate my bedroom

[@andymouse]

@@yeet1337 lol

[@AdityaGaddam]

You are like the blue's clues of the ecad world. Can't stop watching.

[@jbburns]

seriously... this accent is awesome

[@mywebnet]

Oh Boy, DAVE YOU ARE brilliant, and a great man! Big strong handshake, for a such nice personality, and for disclosure very useful information in such details, especially useful for novices and dummies! Love You channel! It's like treasure for me.

[@TheCrazyInventor]

I watched all of it and I love it. I think your industry-related videos are the best. This is very good info for me, as I started an apprenticeship on the R&D department of a local assembly house this week. Fantastic timing. :)

[@enuro12]

I've just watched almost two hours of your videos! Really enjoy your knowledge. I wish i understood 1/100th of what you're talking about.

[@wilyfisherman3953]

Again Dave another Excellent video on PCB manufacturing...

[@alex26i]

You have changed my life. Thank you.

[@myshots101]

@EEVblog Thank you. I thought I saw that but never used it. I got horrible lighting in my room apparently and my cheap point and shoot camera isn't much good indoors either. I also don't like to edit videos myself, they just take forever so whatever makes this less work is good for me.

[@RandyLott]

I'm so excited for this! I watched the first video about 10 times! Thanks again Dave. I'm only 40 seconds in, haha!

[@excavatoree]

Thanks for this and your previous video on this subject - great learning material.

[@EEVblog]

@myshots101 I use the free package CamStudio and ensure that I have a fixed capture area of 1280x720, so it's exactly 16:9 format and does not need any manipulation in the video editor software.

[@EEVblog]

@MickGalt You don't "snap" them, you lever them back and forth gently until they break.

[@PrplhaZe]

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to make these & answering so many of the comments. Clearly you're helping a lot of people who know very little about PCB design & manufacture. I might suggest though, rather than "PCB Design For Manufacture", you really should call these videos 'All About Board Panelization". In the hour of the first part, most of the time was spent talking about panelization, and in this one you spend another 40 minutes covering some of the same exact topics and there's very little discussion of board level layout techniques and constraints to make the PCB fab & assembly more reliable & repeatable. Speaking of repeat.....it's a sign of an Engineer, so I don't fault you, but you repeat a LOT of things not only from the first video (probably because they're created 2 years apart), but multiple times in this video. You could've made this video half as long and thereby twice as helpful if you just made notes on what you wanted to cover and covered it once.

[@cocowang5269]

FOR PCB&PCBA TOTAL turn-key solution, find H.C.C International. Email Coco: [e-mail], thank you!

[@Orthosonic]

Awesome!! I might just buy one from you, despite I have no use for it yet... Btw, I need more of these hour long videos, they are perfect to watch on the treadmill... :)

[@varno]

As for manufacture, have you considered using pick and place solder supplys in 0201, 0402, 0603, 0805 or 1206 formfactor so that you can have the entire board manufactured in a single reflow step, the manufacturer will use a temporary adhesive to the board and then all the through holw components can be made in the reflow oven, I think the technique is called pin and paste The other technique is that you could design the board so that the SMT stuff is wave soldered.

[@mdchethan]

Excellent Dave, very informative.

[@EEVblog]

Yes it does. The panel is a just X copies of the main board file. Change the main bard file and all the panel boards change.

[@davidking2846]

Thanks Dave, another cracking video :-)

[@onjofilms]

Awesome. This is what I subbed for in the first place. Knowledge.

[@EEVblog]

@blarque An automated jig for precision measurement like this is not trivial. You have to weight up how long it takes you to develop and build that vs how much time you save per unit. I wouldn't save much time, I have manual testing down pat and it's very quick.

[@RandyLott]

@EEVblog Thanks Dave. Take care.

[@EEVblog]

@AnnoyingVerification That's adds up too. But pick and place can take a long time, much longer than paste application, depending upon the board complexity.

[@EEVblog]

@fingerboy18 Usually done with an inkjet print of some sort. Not all manufacturers will offer that, gotta ask.

[@0867532]

Thanks you, Dave. I went to altium from sprint layout. That was hard, but its realy better to use. +any pcb factory can use them!

[@00Skyfox]

For great entertainment value, turn on closed captioning for this video and see what youtube thinks what the words are.

[@jfernandmy]

I will see this video again anf again, like it!

[@EEVblog]

@MickGalt Unless you don't have one, in which case you can do it safely and easily by hand.

[@smartieoncomputer]

Hey Dave, you said that PCBs will flex when the Machine places the components on them. At my work, we place supports under the PCBs that are adjustable to most shapes so flexing isn't a problem :P

[@EEVblog]

@rasz I've got a lot of desoldering to do!

[@ulf8468]

Do you have a video about the criteria you have to satisfy so that your designed circuits working properly after printing them on a board? For example I was thinking about topics like where to place your high and low voltage components in relation to electromagnetic compatibility and high frequency signals.

[@turbochargedbrick]

@mspeir The assembly process - parts can be lost when feeding the machine if the utmost care isn't taken, the machine can also drop parts - these are discarded. Likewise if the machine's cameras don't recognise the part for whatever reason the part is rejected.

[@turbochargedbrick]

@mspeir Yes, they can ship them with the boards. Some moisture sensitive parts might need special sealing & baking the next time around however - again a good assembler can do all of this just don't forget to remind them.

[@envisionelec]

7:13 The main reason this is a routed area is because the manufacturer cannot put V-grooves in an "inside" area. They must route edge-to-edge.

[@MEGADRIVEJeroi]

You did not take accaunt the pacages alignment. You will want to align the packages so that they are not aligned towards the wave which is coming fron top to bottom of your board. You have lot of resistors aligned this way. Aligning the pacakes so that the solder sides are againts the wave and it reduces the failing joints in wave solder process and make producing cheaper.

[@EEVblog]

@KiloSierraAlpha It's easy. Have your BOM in Digikey, and then re-ship when you get the box - or get shipped direct to the supplier if you like. Once you do the hard work up front, it's al done. I don't want to go to China for the whole thing, on principle, I want to keep jobs and business local.

[@snaprollinpitts]

thanks Dave, very helpful!

[@TheMiniProdigy]

How do you get the PCBs and components to assembler though?

[@MrDubje]

This is very informative. Im testengineer for a manufacturer of electronics. Pcb's or complete products... we have 2 pick&place machines in line and a reflowoven, also a wavesoldering machine for conventional comp... It is a complete science, manufacturing this stuff.

[@Masterdarkdragon94]

Yes, manufacturing houses can re-use already opened reels, BUT... some (old) pick&place machines, as they open the reel, will let fall like 10 to 20 components. Theese are scrap and they won't use them, so instead of having a leftover of 300 components you will probably have something like 290 or 280 components. If you are going to manufacture 10 PCBs with a pick&place machine, think about it before buying a digireel with 10 components!

[@EEVblog]

@f1adore It's not, I don't have the time at the moment.

[@enmityPC]

you need to keep them in a humidity free environment, components as well as pcb's start to corrode when you remove them from their original packaging where the desiccant bags are.

[@EEVblog]

@madmodders That's the way it should be, none of this lower case rubbish! :-P

[@guruflorida]

You should checkout the 3Dconnexion 3D mouse, it works awesome with Altium - really brings the board out of the monitor somehow IMO - persistence of vision perhaps. Works for SolidWorks too.

[@excavatoree]

@ThinkLearnSolve Dave has some of the best T-shirts among youtube bloggers......

[@murrij]

So for the tooling, is it cheaper to try and have fewer sizes of holes or does it matter? Like if I've got 4 different hole sizes is it cheaper if I try to work it to where it's only 2 hole sizes so they don't have to use 4 different drill bits? Or is that something where through automation it doesn't really matter?

[@precupflorin5610]

It still matters as machine time, until it's switching the bit.

[@RandyLott]

What's a good way to have incremented silkscreen serial numbers? How's that usually done? Phenomenal continuation of the first video.

[@codebeat4192]

These wheels are similar to those of 8mm projector reels from the '70/'80's? They look very familiar to those reals.

[@EEVblog]

@sanderoak So I did!

[@Serenoj69]

Even though I studed electornics on the University of Applied Sciences 2 decades ago I am more into thinking out system rather then do all the producton or the prework. Suppose someone has a working protoptype with several boards attached to oneanother by jumpercables. Has the software running on this too. But now want to have these seperate components joined in one single PCB and not design the PCB himself.....The idea might be great, the software could be encrypted since it is the core of the whole electronic system.....Where do you go from there?Also missing: what does this all cost? You never mention that. Which is about the only criticism possible on your otherwise fantastic videos! Reaaly enjoyed them and saw quite a few after another!! Well done!

[@vvdv3444]

Did u find an answer?

[@tohopes]

When Digi-Key spins a mini-reel, do they throw away a few parts on the tape to make room for your mini-reel's leader?

[@apexmike849]

Bloody nice business model hey!?

[@colejohnson66]

IIRC, they add the leader separately

[@theoqsoftware]

Hi Dave! First of all, thanks for all your great videos! Is the uCurrent board multilayered? On its components side, I can see the PCB traces are kinda protected by an upper red layer. How is that done?

[@davepusey]

if you make a change to the single-board layout, does the software automatically propogate those changes to the panel layout, and the gerbers? I don't think this was mentioned in the video.

[@myshots101]

Great videos. I just found your channel this week and started watching the videos. I was wondering, what program do you use on windows to make your videos? I would like to get something but yours seems to work well, I can read what you are showing on your desktop, etc.

[@MrZenerTech]

So what happens to parts left over from the manufacture process? If you buy a reel of a thousand parts and they only use half, are you wasting money or can the rest of the reel be used for future projects?

[@KatzOhki]

You can still use it.

[@jdflyback]

what is this anyway? a current and resistance meter?

[@RandyLott]

@EEVblog That's an extremely respectable thing to do. The extra money should circulate back to your community in time! Is it worth being kept in the U.S. for my boards even if it's 10x the price? I've always had prototype PCBs made in locally, but I plan on making thousands if market interest suggests. I want to do whatever I can for my own economy, but it's hard to when our success is resting on cost. Component costs aren't in my favor as it is.

[@siliconwitch]

@EEVblog Would it be possible to get them routed by the assembler after they've been assembled?

[@jasonw2222]

Can the v-grooves run off the edge? would insure later hand cutting easiness and to keep intact the end board corners. edit: video #264 towards the end you comment the board has some sag.. it does have 3 V-gooves that run off the board in parallel making the preferred solution should one want bend almost any panel: pcb, thick plywood, dimensional lumber to any variety of metal or even any shape of anything. The sag may be a reason to stop the groove before the edges, or leave a full thickness board stripe and tabs perpendicular to the other grooves. And interrupt the 3 main V-Grooves leaving intact the bracing

[@allanw]

@2020fourier What's digi-key expensive with regard to? I pretty much buy my stuff exclusively from there, unless it's LED's.

[@GLaDOSisGLaD]

and I just watched part 1 again 10 minutes ago :)

[@Mr.Laidukas]

Dave, which Altium version you are using? Maybe you know why Altium no longer fill they library with new components? with each new program version library is the same.

[@hubertboubreau1469]

Hi there Mate. Great info. I am leaning a lot. I understand how how the "big" mother board makers have to go though.. Should I invert this as you live in in Ausi land,LOL. I live In Canada.

[@EEVblog]

This board is not wave soldered.

[@mspeir]

@turbochargedbrick So, when he mentions wasted parts, it is in reference to the assembly facility and not a loss of the extra parts?

[@mspeir]

@turbochargedbrick That part I understand, but I got the impression that anything left on the roll was lost. As in the assembler kept the left overs. Probably because I watched it in the middle of the night...

[@ITubeTooInc]

Instead of TI TPS3809L30DBV, why not order an equivalent and much cheaper part form another manufacturer? It's "Pin-For-Pin Compatible With MAX 809" as TI states in their datasheet. MAX809 is manufactured by both Maxim and ON Semi and both are also sold by Digi-Key. ON MAX809RTRG in Digi-Reel is much cheaper than TI. ON MAX809RTRG x250 Digi-Reel: $78.69 Ti TPS3809L30DBV x250 Digi-Reel: $126.19 Ti TPS3809L30DBV x250 mini-reel: $133.36 Funnily TI is a bit cheaper in Digi-Reel than in mini-reel.

[@Mtaalas]

@valajbeg I think it was great. If young whippersnappers don't have the concentration capability to watch long videos (TLDW) then they shouldn't ;) I just think that @EEVblog has the thing going pretty well.

[@Co265]

How do you define the thickness of the stencil and how large are the paste openings? You have interesting videos :).

[@aerextraho]

Do you use Altium to do all of the PCB Design (including panelization)? I am looking for a good software that doesn't need GerbMerge to do the panelization.

[@Sebastian-be8ez]

What is the name of the gerber editor software you are using to do the paneling?

[@modoran2000]

Seen the 2 parts, great work... Some questions for you: Do you know a small and serious PCB designer to who i send the specifications, he makes me a price for all (to deliver all the gerber files, the bom, ... ), and then he build a project pcb board?

[@eigg892]

What's the max current that we can measure with this?

[@varno]

Secondly, why do you not change to the SOT23-6 version of the MAX4328? it seems to be much more available. (seing as you are re-doing the tooling)

[@esixphp]

What kind of component is on U2 ?

[@DavidRobertsonUK]

Yes, but you'll probably end up with slightly less than 300 left due to leader/trailer tape requirements and possibly components rejected by the P&P machine.

[@ExtantFrodo2]

When you find the MAX4238 is not available from Digikey in tape format, why not try contacting Maxim Integrated Products directly?

[@Litruv]

www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10PCS-MAX4238AUT-MAX4238-SOT-23/1657091975.html Looks like it comes on tape, unsure though

[@Masterdarkdragon94]

how did you get rid of the Altium bug on 28:20?

[@Tuttomenui]

You know you could still make some of the loose boards and have them hand made and rework the text to make them a little different and make a Signature series that cost 100% more. Do some eevblog fundraising and have a few for some kind of giveaway contest. MARKETING.. they do some strange stuff. Ever see them cordless drills that are "Signature Series' and they are all painted gold and shit. hahaha.

[@Dotrade]

when you wanted to produce allot of current converter using duplicated process using v grooving will not be smothe

[@blarque]

is there any reason you dont mention testability at all? there's a video of you handtesting one batch which seems to have take quite a lot of time, if you think high-volume shouldnt that be a factor in this as well, or will you build a custom testjig yourself? If you'd do design an automated test, i'd be really interested in that, whether you'd just build a mechanical testjig and tweek around with your multimeter or something like a whole testsuite which is maybe controlled by a microntroller

[@dattran0000]

I can't import Multileaders from autocad 2016 to Altium 17. Can you help me?

[@AgentOffice]

How do they make v grooving?

[@mspeir]

OK, so let's say that I am manufacturing 250 pieces and I can only gets reels of 500. Can I get the left overs back from the assembly plant?

[@b2939161]

D1 is flipped?

[@gfx2006]

I've got a question - if you only use 200 components on a reel of 500, will you be able to use the leftover 300 (which presumably are still on the reel) in a next round of production?

[@gorillaau]

gfx2006 I know this is late but I think I can answer it. Yes, you can use the remainder for your next production run but don't expect to get all of the components back, some might be rejected during assembly.

[@f1adore]

how is the makerbot build going?

[@jguy584]

Put a link to the ucurrent sign up in the video info!

[@RandyLott]

@f1adore Sagan is probably already making pacifiers!

[@PcbLjcircuits]

There are many burrs in the board edge. I have other suggetion to meet your needs.

[@TheMrTape]

That's so you'll have to reload the page and watch another advertisement.

[@RustyTube]

You said to sign up on your web site if interested in the device. Alas, not once in the video have you told us what the device is for. 😕

[@thenerdyouknowabout]

Where the hell did you get that awesome shirt!!!!???

[@venugopalk5671]

I am looking for hardware design and development of pcp pls sir

[@turbochargedbrick]

legend!

[@playvectrex]

I really want to learn something that I don't know already... but it's painful sitting through an hour of video for it. Great video for the beginners ;-)

[@shmuelglick4774]

Hi, he keeps on mentioning a guy that hand assembles PCBs for you. vitronx vetronics... something like that. I cannot find any company like that. Can somebody please give me some more info??

[@SimoWill75]

+Shmuel “Shmuly” Glick Search for 'Vutronics' on the Eevblog forum.

[@turbochargedbrick]

@KiloSierraAlpha Sure - but then you might lose the opportunity to optimise your design to use the best parts possible for cost/availability.

[@apexmike849]

Another excellent video Dave! Altium looks like PCB layout porn! Do you reckon it still is? What's the best one? I've used PCB Wizard 3 (Maplin - stop slapping my head..) from New Wave Concepts for years and I've upgraded that to the pro version that produces Gerber output and once you get to know it, there isn't much that you can't do (I grew up with crepe tapes, stable film and scalpel blades, go figure). But Altium looks awesome.