EEVblog

Part 1 of an internet connected Nixie tube counter/clock display project.
What are Nixie Tubes? How do they work? How do you drive them?
Selecting a suitable driving solution and parametric searching.
Using the IN12A or IN12B tubes.
UPDATE: Any totom pole output solution isn't going to work that great. Will update in the next video.
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[@ArtesianFalma]

Dave, suggestion from a professional solder; if you cut the legs on the components after soldering, you should resolder. The kick from cutting with a plier can cause micro cracks in the solder joint causing the board to fail after some time. Maybe not super important but nice for viewers to know.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

You don't need latched outputs - you just shift quickly, and use the output enable to blank while shifting. You also don't actually need drivers rated to the full anode voltage due to the forward voltage drop of the nixies.

[@EEVblog]

Blanking is morally offensive :-> But yeah.

[@EEVblog]

As for the voltage requirement, I did measure the open voltage on one unit and the highest voltage was 122V.

[@yngvai777]

Mike, you are wise.

[@EEVblog]

See my 2nd channel video for a demo of this.

[@3ktonn]

Maybe, "open pins" voltage can be clamped, say, by ~10V zener. You have measured 120 V to 10 MOhm resistance, so the current drawed was only ~12 uA. Incresing this value even 10 times should not cause any problem.

[@chrispychickin]

Hey Dave, have you considered a fundamentals friday episode on different output types for IC's? Totem pole, open collector, etc. Its one of those things that I've picked up bits of over the years, but i'm sure newbies, and people like myself could do with a refresher, or learn some extra tricks around different types!

[@smashdesystem]

simontay1984 it's two transistors in series, one sources to ground and the other drains to voltage, they are driven by the same input on the base or gate, so they have to be complementary, meaning one is npn and the other is pnp, it is called totem pole because one is on top of the other, like a totem lol

[@MD-vs9ff]

simontay1984 Totem pole is a push-pull type of output, it is able to actively drive the output high or low, compared to an open collector that can only actively pull low.

[@MikhailChernoskutov]

Dave, considering datasheet. Voltage at which discharge happens: not more than 170V Current for digits: not more than 2.5mA Current for dot: not more than: 0.3mA Cathode brightness: not less than 100 [candels/(square meter)] Power supply voltage (DC or AC RMS with half bridge): not less than 200V Maintaining discharge voltage: 120 - 170V Operating curent at DC voltage: for digits: 2 - 3.5mA for dot: 0.7mA Operating current at 50Hz AC with half bridge: for digits: not more than 2mA for dot: not more than 0.2mA No noble metals contained.

[@Ni5ei]

Thanks for translating Mikhail!

[@joell439]

Dave, I'm a mechanical engineer and I always learn something new when I watch your videos. You make these videos so incredibly interesting and relevant. Sure wish I had someone like you around to show me the way when it was time to decide what kind of engineering I should study 35 yrs ago. Thanks for taking the time to record, edit and share with us!

[@PolygonByte]

This was an absolutely wonderful episode, Dave! I really enjoyed seeing and hearing your thought process during the design phase of a project. I can't wait to see more videos on this project and to see the end result!

[@FranLab]

Some of the Russian nixie tubes have a radioactive isotope added to decrease the low-light turn on time.

[@mrlazda]

As I know that was adding Kr85 which with half-life of 11 years so till now all should be safe. On other hand uranium (uranium oxide) pottery glaze was used for centuries. Basically all houses build before 1940 used bathroom or kitchen tiles that had been glazed with varying amounts of uranium and most ceramic glazed dinnerware used it. Even now some companies use depleted uranium (rather than the original natural uranium) for production of glaze (for example Homer Laughlin China Company of Newell, West Virginia).

[@Mythricia1988]

Just because something contains radioactive isotopes doesn't make it dangerous..... A banana is relatively radioactive due to the naturally occurring potassium, and probably orders of magnitude more radioactive than any uranium glass, or isotope added to a Nixie tube. The Uranium glass is perfectly safe to use, even for food or what-have you. You ingest Uranium daily anyway, simply by eating natural foods, and a much larger amount than any Uranium glass would possibly add (which is nearly 0, because it's bound in the glass, it's not going anywhere).

[@Bradman175]

+Mythricia radioactive banana mmmmm

[@FranLab]

Correct ~ The Kr85 releases a beta particle which was used to create reliable initiation of ionization in the tubes, but a very short half life means that the isotopes are by now mostly inactive.

[@Fiercesoulking]

Fun fact all bananas you can buy in the normal stores are sterile mutants.

[@TonyKD8RTT]

Dave, I'm loving these project videos. I know they're a lot of work, but they're fun to follow along with!

[@MaxIzrin]

I really panicked when you got the translation wrong. Good thing you double checked, mark of a good engineer, good on you mate. I was scared you'd burn the thing because of the decimal needing a smaller current.

[@MOTOSNOWRIDER]

Awesome video Dave! I liked how you had all the different chips you looked at in there, instead of just showing us the one you ultimately went with.

[@DaWalkDude]

I Quite like the touch screen support for DaveCad! It looks so bold and responsive!

[@NoName-bt3oy]

The beginning of some classic EEVBlog. Looking forward to the rest of these vids.

[@ianbcnp]

Cracking stuff, thank you! Fran got me started on these beauties and I've been learning by getting them working and counting just using decade counters and 10 hv transistors and resistors per tube. I think this should take my meagre understanding to a new level. Looking forward to the next one!

[@veremenko]

Important! 0,3 mA is indication current of decimal point. 2.5 mA for numbers. Maximum for DC: .7 mA for decimal point and 2-3.5 mA for numbers. For AC (50 Hz half-way rectifier) max current: 2 mA for numbers and .2 mA for decimal point. UPD Looked further and you used google translate. Few)

[@MRooodddvvv]

indeed!

[@diewindowsdie]

Hey Dave, just wanted you to know that the mighty engineers of my great country created a special IC to power these things - К155ИД1. You just hook each cathode of the tube to one pin of the IC, and based on one of the 2^6=16 possible high/low inputs on other four pins, it allows current to flow to the ground of your circuit through the tube. Please let me know if you need some of them - can send it to you :)

[@electronicsNmore]

Nixie tubes are cool. I need to get my hands on a few.

[@nathaniel4756]

Vv yo gji fat t ifYu guy yo Offfddddddddxtgg CD xz a try g G u s

[@sficlassic]

The channel Mr. Carlson's Lab did a nice project with Nixie tubes. He designed it to be a frequency counter / digital display for radios. It will be interesting to see how it's done here.

[@111olbap]

Ah, EEVBlog. You always put a smile on my face.

[@TheRopez94]

Just ordered a set of nixies, yes I'm making a clock, and was happy to come across this. Has been too long since I watched anything on this channel. May be time to binge some mailbag.

[@JeMasLT]

So that's how you looking for specific chips. Nice work. Will wait for all progress you do.

[@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365]

Really awesome video Dave. Been a while since I last was this excited about your upcoming videos. Really nice seeing you design something, even if we don't know yet what it is ;-)

[@Pieh0]

8 Nixie tubes with decimal points and saying that it's going to be a project that we'll "find out later"? Calculator.

[@spoderman15]

frequency meter perhaps or some type of lab equipment

[@Pieh0]

Spoder Man PLACE BET NOW! :P

[@spoderman15]

I'm placing a bet on a Dave bullshit meter. Don't let it near solar roadways or it will explode

[@tohopes]

No, it's to display the count of his unopened Mailbag items. He needs all the digits.

[@ianc4901]

He mentioned fitting 'some kind of display' in his Apple Pi cluster computer project. He said he wanted to remove the DWD RW drive and fit the display in the vacant bay, this looks like it might fit in there ;)

[@im0b]

this was awesome, would love to see more programs like this, very informative and useful! thank you so much!

[@codebeat4192]

Really fall in love with these tubes, very nice! Never seen that small.

[@niiiiiiisse]

Really liking this (sort of) project! As a Ben Heck fan, i like seeing you do a more hands-on project soldering and such

[@TekkGnostic]

Fan of Mr Carlson's Lab? He's got a bunch of great vids playing with Nixies. Fun stuff.

[@WobblycogsUk]

Great video Dave, one of your best IMHO.

[@coceth]

Looks like a fun project. Looking forward to the future vids.

[@keithmoore1931]

This was a blast. I love my nixie collection. These 12's are tough as nails! I do have PCBs for Steins:Gate Divergence meters using a different nixie. The Supertex Serial to Parallel Converter 220V 32Ch and Open Drain Outputs. PQFP-44 packaging. These are really handy for nixie driver projects.

[@proyectosledar]

excellent dave. subscriber counter?? you know that i love leds but this is so cool

[@michaelhawthorne8696]

Nice projects you're getting going lately Dave, Looking forward to more parts for this and the Raspberry Pi too. :) If I remember rightly the Suzuki GT750 nicknamed 'The Kettle' because it was a water cooled 2 stroke Motorcycle had a Nixie tube in the clock cluster to display what gear you were in. I had a Suzuki GT250 again 2 stroke and it had the gear shift contacts in the gearbox to install something along the lines of the GT750. I wanted to wire a 7 segment display with decoder to respond to which line was grounded depending what gear you was in but never got around to it before the bike died on me. :(

[@hyperplastic]

Great video! Loved the parametric search bit

[@tuttocrafting]

Yes, finally! I was waiting this. Nixie are so beautiful.

[@mattsains]

these design process videos are great! learnt a lot

[@Zetex2000]

YES!! When I saw the title I instantly watched the video, gotta love nixie!

[@thiagoennes]

very nice to see a project again! :)

[@bevkcan]

these look SO COOL

[@ministryofwrongthink6962]

Who else immediately thought of Fallout 4 when they saw this?

[@EEVblog]

What's Fallout 4?

[@kilerkai]

LOL

[@jimydog0009]

Fallout 4 is a post-apocalyptic role-playing game developed by Bethesda Game Studios[2] and published by Bethesda Softworks. It is the fifth major installment in the Fallout series (7th overall), and was released on Microsoft Windows, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One on November 10th, 2015. The player is the Sole Survivor of Vault 111, who emerges 210 years to the day and time after the Great War. Prior to this, there is a brief period of gameplay during the pre-War era showing the player living with their spouse and child. As revealed in the trailer on June 3, 2015, the setting takes place in Boston, Massachusetts. Famous local landmarks like the Paul Revere Monument, the USS Constitution, as well as the Massachusetts State House with its unique Golden Dome are included in the game world. Other notable present-day locations that make an appearance in the game are Scollay Square, Bunker Hill memorial, and Fenway Park, which is renamed Diamond City.

[@denniswoycheshen]

it's a world without the transistor... :(

[@jimydog0009]

What's a joke?

[@SidneyCritic]

The silkscreen shows one of the fouling parts (101) on it's side.

[@ikbendusan]

mate look at the reference picture for that high voltage power supply, there's a marked area where you're supposed to bend over that inductor

[@rdgraham2418]

I recently made a Nixie clock/calendar with no less than 14 nixies. I used four of the SN65518FN from TI for driving the tubes. They are a bit hard to find but turned out to be a great solution. You don't need to have a switching solution that can work to the full 170V. The SN65518FN works up to 60V and this is fine. The trick is to switch the low side of the tube to a 60V bias when you want the digit to be OFF and to 0V when you want the digit on. When a digit is off it is naturally open circuit. One resistor can be shared between the tube and an additional one in series for the decimal point. One thing to watch out for is that the 60V 'bias' somehow requires a few mA of current, which doesn't seem like much but does mean that you need a proper 60V source in the circuit -- a simple shunt regulator isn't suitable.

[@apexmike849]

So glad you didn't just do yet another basic Nixie clock!

[@filipeterra8981]

belive me, pc817 + resistor works a treat as a anode driver for nixie tubes. still working after 4+ years. a simple 555 boost with no feedback is good enough for the power supply.

[@Fellintr]

Really interesting to see how you search for parts :)

[@r1273m]

I helped a friend build a 6 digit (hh-mm-ss) nixie clock back in the early 1970's. It was a kit from Henry's Radio who were very big at the time. It used the typical 7490/74141 combination. Cost was was about £80 for the kit which was a lot of money then. There are still plenty of 74141 on E-bay. Bob

[@failureisfunny3211]

I loved this video :) Useful for many ideas!

[@oaxelo1]

These are awesome! i have been wanting to make a Nixie tube clock

[@maidpretty]

Mode for voltage is 120-170 V, indication current for "numbers" - 2-3.5mA, for "comma" - 0.3-0.7mA. 30 degrees - viewing angle, brightness - not less than 100 cd/m^2.

[@hannonm]

YAY project time! :D Thanks Dave.,

[@TheBekker_]

This is great! considering making a clock too! thanks for sharing! :)

[@hitechespresso]

Dave is just a genius! GREAT!

[@hcblue]

I love this. Thanks for sharing!

[@poorlycalculated]

I really love nixie tubes! As a hobbyist, I wanted to make one of these for my first homemade clock, main difference being that I want to use IN-18 tubes! Another factor is that I need money for that...oh well, I'll get my enjoyment from these videos.

[@poorlycalculated]

Doubt it! They will without a doubt go up in price with time as less and less are around. Unless they find some batch of a few thousand of them hidden in some warehouse, they will probably keep getting more expensive. Guess we've got to settle with IN-14's or IN-16's :(

[@TechnocraticBushman]

30 minutes of raw engineering awesomeness!!!!

[@GoldSrc_]

Steins;Gate anyone?, I can't be the only one thinking that lol. Gotta love Nixie tubes.

[@xureality]

wrong kind of tube for the divergence meter though, you'd want the 90 degrees/freestanding ones.

[@CatNolara]

Loved the divergence meter, it looked so much like a real electronics project :)

[@velikiradojica]

What world line are we in?

[@MrTrashmasterfx]

LOL i was thinking the same thing :D

[@redtails]

TUTURUUUU

[@briandecker8403]

Love this project!

[@ggklncnoifewAsdarp]

Neon bulbs strike better when the gas is pre-ionised. This also means that the nixies are light sensitive. At threshold voltages they will likely only start to glow when there's enough light shining on them. I never tried it, but it's an interesting topic for one of your experiments: xenon-flash-start an undervolted nixie tube.

[@ThePaperIsAwesome]

Hey Dave, if you have a look at the silkscreen it looks as though the inductor is supposed to be soldered horizontally (hence the spacing).

[@NeilRieck]

These tubes were still being used by Bell Canada in 1980 in SxS - ANI (Step-by-Step - Automatic Number Identification) manufactured by Northern Electric

[@mxzhang8836]

My design of nixie power supply used a XL6008 boost converter in TO-252 package and a TTRN-060S transformer, configured in flyback topology. The total component count is less than 10, cost less than $2 and fits in a 16x20mm PCB. Input can go from 5V to 24V, with 170V/20mA output.

[@Maxisokol]

Yo, Russian translator here. ;) 0.3mA - is the nominal current for the decimal point indication. 0.7 is max. * surprisingly google translate got most of the things correctly.

[@rocketman221projects]

You don't need a 200V rated transistor for each cathode as long as each tube always has a digit lit. You only need something rated for 40-50V. A ULN2803 or ULN2003 transistor array works great and you can protect all of them against overvoltage with a single zener diode. The nixie driver ICs have a similar voltage rating and require one digit to always be on. I used ULN2003's in my nixie clock and it has been running on my desk for years just fine. It runs with all 6 digits multiplexed. They are certainly bright enough to read in normal lighting, but not in direct sunlight.

[@EEVblog]

It's not that easy. See my 2nd channel video for a demo of up to 122V open circuit voltage on the off cathodes.

[@EEVblog]

But yes, the 74141's look to have zener clamps on each pin.

[@rocketman221projects]

Putting a zener diode between 0V and the com pin on the ULN2803 provides the overvoltage protection like the 74141.

[@EEVblog]

Ah, yes, I forgot the common pin, yes, that will certainly work with a single zener. 13 chips for 88 lines.

[@nicwilson89]

I've got some great IN-4 tubes around, prefer them to even these type of tubes. Very pretty :)

[@naturalorang3]

The inductor on the high-voltage supply board is supposed to be mounted on its side as you can see in all of the photos.

[@DeKempster]

is that DaveCAD 2.1? liking the grid and fullscreen function

[@DaAmn155]

9:29 The inductor should have been bent down on the board and soldered like this. :D Great video series!

[@MichaGounski]

Dave, V_bias might be a really useful feature as it allows easy brightness regulation for your display

[@tubical71]

that´s why they put it into....if you ever saw a nixie clock in a dark room you know why...it´s just too bright....

[@IzzJohnny]

I have used the HV5530 in designs. 32-bit shift register with high voltage open drain outputs. Can get 10 in a sample order from microchip too.

[@IzzJohnny]

spoke too soon, you found it lol.

[@Skraap]

Yay projects! I love project videos :)

[@valvemonky4734]

HI Dave just thought i would state the obvious with the power supply the inductor should be on its side lead bend at right angle im just about too build one for my nixie thermometer kit

[@JeremyCanary]

Watching some of this makes me realize how much I really don't know coming fresh out of getting EE degree.

[@iwtommo]

The painful truth right there. I wonder if i'd have been better off in the interview with 'look at all this cool shit i've made in the last 4 years'

[@aabb5283]

So, the instruction states the following: 12 wires, 1 for anode, 10 for digits, 1 for comma (digit separator). You own PN-12B model. Ignition voltage, max: 170 V. Discharge voltage range: 120-170 V. Discharge current: 2-3,5 mA (I assume it depends on the surface, you can adjust the brightness by controlling the current). Discharge current for comma: 0,7 mA. Which means that you would need only a f***ing high-voltage mosfet package, which is small, one or more microcontrollers to drive the thing, you can have them interconnected and that's all, mostly. In fact, you could make a universal solution with a boost converter on the very same mosfets in the package - one simple solution for many situation. The hardest thing is to write the program for the microcontroller or microcontrollers. With mosfet packages you can even program the brightness, with extra mosfets for each digit of high-voltage DAC conversion. How come it takes 3 videos for some simple circuit designs ?

[@mrnmrn1]

Dave, I'm looking forward to this project. Have you realized that the original 74141 also has just 60V of maximum output voltage capability? What is the reason for that? It's clear that a turned-off digit won't conduct the high voltage to the associated open collector output. But if a digit just turns off, the voltage at the output seems quite unpredictable during the transition.

[@mattymerr701]

One the things I now pick up on is how people seem to think that low pressure is not a vacuum. Sure it isn't a "true vacuum" but it is still a vacuum.

[@toxanbi]

04:13 - No! It is not minimum sustaining current, it is maximum allowed current for "decimal point" electrode.

[@TheKrololo]

170 V is the maximum voltage when they start glowing, 2.5 mA is the maximum current for digits, 0.3 mA is the maximal current for decimal point, 200 V is the minimum voltage of power supply, 120-170 V - voltage to keep glowing, and also it says that there is no precious metals

[@TheKrololo]

Oh, i didn't see that you used a google translator later

[@MRooodddvvv]

yep!

[@Lageyy]

A clock made of these would make a great conversation piece

[@Mythricia1988]

Can confirm this to be true. I have a beautiful Nixie clock in the living room, and so far precisely 0 people who have visited me _hasn't_ asked questions about it :)

[@elk3407]

Mythricia I'm planning on making a clock with nixie tubes. What are some cheeper ones I could get? Also, any tips?

[@bigpapaDgaming]

i would really love to make one of these! I'm an EE student, and have been looking for some projects

[@thcoura]

nice way to attach the displays.

[@montoyo]

Hey Dave! Nice video, as always! One question: 25:02 would an opamp work to amplify the logic signals?

[@aabb5283]

Also, you can drive the thing by supporting a constant high-frequency corona discharge inside it. It would allow you to drive it without heater at much lower voltage, as you won't need initial ionization. The correct solution would be using no registers or whatever and use a microcontroller with high voltage DAC circuit for each of the tubes, as it would give a universal solution with less wires and many protocols supported.

[@slepro]

Are you sure that you can drive high, using push-pull drivers, the digits that are not lit on the nixie? Shouldn't need to have the unlit digit left floating? Also, what is the voltage of a floating digit pin? Maybe you could use lower voltage drivers depending on what is the voltage on the pin!

[@TheMorpheus017]

Dave, here values from datasheet: Indication current: 2.5 mA for digits, allowed maximum us 2-3.5mA (for DC) 0.3 mA for dot, allowed maximum is 0.7 mA (for DC)

[@TheMorpheus017]

not allowed maximum, but nominal, i guess. Also, it says that there are no precious metals :D Recommended to solder pins not closer then 4mmfrom glass.

[@TheMorpheus017]

100 Cd/m2 is light intensity 30 degree view angle

[@TheMorpheus017]

Also, dot could be light up with digit, when it's should be lower current, maybe you should keep that in mind

[@gulapis]

dave you should try to latch with out enable on , it may look like a cool transistion effect at no extra cost (with multiple shifts maybe scramble the driver lines to make the effect more random,needs a translation table in the mcu for each digit though)

[@singlina1]

usual solution would be specialized driver chip(some of them are even isolated), with charge pump. however how many channels? i think silicon labs have 4 channel one.

[@EscapeMCP]

9:28 - On the HV supply, L1 looks like it is marked on the board as a 'laid down' component (i.e. mount it horizontal). I guess that this is why the cap and inductor were squabbling over that small piece of PCB? Strangely interesting vid though looking for chips on DigiKey, although not sure which one he ended up getting... the 16 bit 0.5mm pitch PITA, or the 8 bit jobbie.

[@SuperBlackReality]

3:22 hmm... could it be made into segments, or it has to be whole digits?

[@GiGaSzS]

For me individual drive solution is much better than multiplexing, flickering nixies. When I am making my devices, I use flicker flickering/multiplexing only if it is absolutely necessary (huge matrices such as LCD screens), and even then I try to implement a filter (e.g. LC).

[@tatterdemalion898]

So, it could be that I am missing something, but wasn't there supposed to be a link in the description, to the hv supply?

[@ManWithBeard1990]

I find it amusing how you call 7-segment displays traditional compared to these. Gotta love a Nixie tube. They're just works of art, really.

[@__dm__]

You can use optocouplers on the cathode side to make the cathode drive less painful!

[@mr_gerber]

On the PSU-board, no goofing was done with the spacing in the layout - check the silkscreen, you're supposed to flip the inductor over!

[@canecreek00]

I'm about to build a Tsyklon labs chaos divider which uses the same Nixie tube hence I found this video very interesting.

[@MrVinca]

awe, this gave me flashbacks of playing minecraft and building decoders, alu´s and displays with redstone. good times. thy for the nostalgia.

[@ChipGuy]

As far as I know a push pull driver would not work with the Nixie tube. Since the segments are all in a row the current won't be flowing from the grid to the segment but from a segment that is pulled high to the segment that is pulled low. I have a feeling that this is not right.

[@JacGoudsmit]

I was wondering about that too. With those totem pole outputs you'd basically get 9 additional anodes and one cathode. Maybe Dave is planning on leaving the high-voltage supply input of the drivers disconnected? That might do the trick although I have a feeling that's not really how the drivers are intended to be used.

[@ChipGuy]

Exactly and he already pointed out in the forum that it does not work that great. He is going to show in the next part.

[@MateuszJagocha]

Could demux would work instead of shift registers?

[@lezbriddon]

hv513 has totem pole outputs, isnt that what we didnt need? will taking unused digits to +hv affect operation of the illuminated digit? Can we just not connect +hv to the chip so it cant pull digits high? /puzzled but hey i dont have any tubes, and as soon as i can find some that are 6-9 inches high, i'm having me a wall clock....

[@ddowlingau]

If you are going to go to the trouble of laying out a board then why don't you just jump to the 0.5mm pitch QFN package? With some careful layout you might be able to squeeze the driver inside the pinout for the nixie tube. It would make a really clean design with just a bus for clk, data, latch and power running between the digits. Great video.

[@softdorothy]

Yep, looks like you should have laid that inductor (L1) down on the power supply PCB to get the correct fit. The silkscreen looks like that was the intention.

[@MatthewSuffidy]

I wonder if the digits towards the pin side are bigger to cancel perspectival reduction.

[@Braeden123698745]

Over less than an inch?

[@MatthewSuffidy]

I tried this out by looking into a little box here at a reasonable range, it looks like around 2mm difference at that depth. You do see the 1 point closure of the edges. You would have to be looking more or less straight on for it to correct, so maybe they wouldn't care.