EEVblog

[@LayerCakeMakes]

Uhh PCB movie night :)

[@Afrotechmods]

It's good that this is a long video. All these options used to intimidate the hell out of me back in the day so it's great that you've made such a thorough guide for beginners. A flex PCB series from start to finish would be cool!

[@p_mouse8676]

I agree with the information point of view, even said from a professional. But the video could be a lot shorter.

[@xnetworkDEVILx]

Omg ....teacher you are alive 😭😭😭

[@Stormbolter]

@@p_mouse8676 I guess you haven't seen much videos from EEV. This guy reeeeeallly loves talking :D

[@p_mouse8676]

@@Stormbolter I guess I have been there from the start even maybe. I am sorry, but good narrating also involves good editing of the videos. Just pausing and fast-forwarding is not gonna change that. But I guess science only applies on the things people want to apply it too.

[@richardlighthouse5328]

Goddamn it, when you upload. Stop wasting time on watching some others peoples videos, its procrastination.

[@ChipGuy]

1:03:40: I have been told by Beta Layout PCB Pool, that the Impedance control box will make sure you really get a 4 layer stackup instead of getting a 6 layer stackup by chance. Reason: Sometimes they fill up 6 layer panels with 4 layer designs when they don't have enough 6 layer designs to fill up the panel.So you end up with different prepreg thicknesses, hence different impedance.

[@GeneralPose]

Would love to see you design a flex-pcb. I wouldn't mind if you did it in kicad, wink wink.

[@Dave5281968]

Thumbs up to the idea of doing a flex-pcb video or series in KiCad!

[@Daniel-ib5bx]

He already did one or two lol

[@adbethsing383]

A note on FR Tg130 vs Tg 170+ ... .where I find this really comes into play is not in the actual circuit under operation, but during prototyping phases and stages where you're pulling off and soldering back on different components for testing and tuning. For example, trying to get the feedback network right in an active filter ... or, the compensation in a DC/DC converter. Sometimes empirical study is quicker than trying to do diff. eq. The simple fact is that if you're pulling SMT caps/resistors or other components off the prototype PCB, it is much much easier to lift pads on Tg130 than it is on Tg170+. Tg170 survives soldering iron / desoldering iron/tweezer abuse much more readily. Once my prototype / dev board is good to go, I'll usually order production quantities on Tg130

[@chaos.corner]

I designed a few PCBs back in the early 2000s and prototypes were so expensive that my boss told me just to order 200 PCB production runs and try to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Prices are astoundingly cheap now.

[@EEVblog]

LOL, yep, I remember those days. You couldn't get a decent prototype made for under $800 or so here. You had to by the whole panel. When prototype panels prices came down to $300 a panel that was remarkable.

[@steverobbins4872]

Yes, please do a video on flex PCBs. I recently ordered my first flex boards and they were really expensive. I'd love to see some tips on how to hold the cost down.

[@BlueLiquidCell69]

I think the Thermal conductivity @19:10 should be Watts per Meter Kelvin not milli Kelvin ;-)

[@EEVblog]

Doh, yes. Must engage brain next time.

[@abpccpba]

who cares

[@KeanM]

@@abpccpba Anyone doing thermal calculations would care

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@@KeanM yes - but we also know. Especially when you are used to communicate with people from non-metric countries as well ;-)

[@Tim_Small]

As a lowly programmer, I was just happy that I finally found something I knew, that Dave didn't...

[@Spirit532]

Accidentally watched the entire video without realizing how long it was. This is *the* concise explanation of all the manufacturing processes, and a very nice guide to navigating them.

[@EEVblog]

I wouldn't say concise!

[@Spirit532]

@@EEVblog Given the number of options, can't make it much shorter!

[@DanielPierce]

This is a great guide for anyone who has a question about certain aspects of the ordering process, especially for the hobbyists among us! Thanks for the video!

[@JW-uC]

The chances of me ever having a board made are zero to none... but I still find your vids on these things fascinating (and takes me back to my first job out of school, before I changed industry - many years ago).

[@Mtaalas]

Again a video that would have saved me countless hours, if not days of trying to figure this stuff out back in the day... You have no idea how important these videos are since they come directly from an EE :)

[@Pete292323]

Dave: "42 minutes long, geez, that's a watch isn't it?" Also Dave: Proceeds to make a 1 hour and 10 minute long video.

[@EEVblog]

No correspondence will be entered into.

[@michelfeinstein]

Edge plating also helps with heat dissipation

[@jlegen]

Silly me always chose options around „keeping the cart at those 5 dollars“ ;-) - many thanks for this profound enlightning!

[@jmonsted]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate that Dave uses bing and actually gets a useful result?

[@EEVblog2]

Only because I don't usually use it so it's a "clean" browser for video capture purposes.

[@MICHhimself]

@@EEVblog2 I think DuckDuckGo would also work for that as they don't do tracking, so past searches shouldn't affect the search results for the video.

[@Dave5281968]

Bing is better for technical searches. Always has been.

[@IvoTrausch]

@@EEVblog2 So, what have we been googling recently? (͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)(͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)(͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)

[@iyatemu]

One thing you didn't mention is that a few options can be mixed and these mixes can actually affect cost substantially. If you're designing a card but just need a couple of prototypes for actual fitment or final circuit testing, or as an intermediate step to further build on before officially adding changes, you can select the gold fingers option, AND ask for beveled edges, but keep the surface finish as HASL. You can then order the board and build it up and test to see if it works at all without spending the $200 on the gold fingers. Because of this mix though, cost can also be affected in strange ways. You can order a batch of cards with HASL on the main board but ask for hard gold on the card edge pins, but since this will be a two-stage process, it can actually be CHEAPER to coat the boards entirely in gold, rather than only the edge connector.

[@CliveChamberlain946]

Thanks Dave! This is a one of a kind resource, major thanks to this Aussie industry veteran from Canada! Is there anything you DON'T know?

[@ristomatti]

I was expecting to see a reply saying "I could do a whole video about it".

[@BlackEpyon]

I wonder if there's a PCB manufacturer based in Canada that offers online prototyping runs? OSHPark is a bit more expensive than PCB Way, but OSH Park, I don't have to pay Customs import fees. I do this as a hobby, so I try to save money where I can.

[@PilotPlater]

love it Dave. I just sent off my first PCB in about 5 years yesterday. Great to get back into it.

[@imagesbyscott]

Hey Dave. Awesome video. Yes, please tell us about the flex PCB's.

[@Aemilindore]

I remember learning these form you in an earlier video too. Its so nice to see you doing videos of this type again

[@_adamalfath]

"If your circuit getting a 130-140 degree you'd better know what the hell you're doing" This made me laugh :D

[@steverobbins4872]

My experience is, when you tell a PCB maker that you have impedance-controlled traces they will actually tweek your line widths according to their proprietary empirical data. This usually gives tighter impedance control than you can get with an impedance calculator app, because they take into account things like plating thickness and undercutting. Also, if you made a mistake calculating your line widths, they will catch it.

[@EEVblog]

Yes, I'd like to think they will catch it, but I still wouldn't want them touching my gerbers. It'd be ok to tweak the prepreg to match, but I'd prefer that they feedback this and it's sorted at the design stage and specified on the stackup. I don't like "secret sauce" data.

[@Dave5281968]

Yes! Please do a video on FPC soldering & application. Some how to on the ordering specs would also be very helpful! Thanks to you for doing all of these great videos Dave!

[@MaartenBaert]

27:55 Actually it looks like that design *does* use blind vias ;). 44:25 Immersion silver is also used for RF equipment (like spectrum analyzers) because unlike ENIG it does not contain any ferromagnetic materials that will reduce the skin depth and increase losses.

[@rutgerdejong9616]

Thanks Dave for taking the time to go over all the options, I have learned a lot. Always went with the default settings for PCBs and that seems correct.

[@opros7]

1:05:00 Countersinks: Or you use some riveted pcb mounting post. When they are pressed in, they expand and may require a certain angle to expand so that it won't break the board.

[@vidivana]

42:10 For OSP and Immersion gold 1U" the price is the same ($41). The form kept 3U" thickness selected. Another excellent educational video! Learned much new things! Thank you!

[@monad_tcp]

43:18 audiophile products, dip everything in pure gold, even the caps

[@planned_obsolescence]

When I design pcb's for audiophile applications, I never use gold plating. The complete pcb and its components are CNCed out of a block of solid gold. You can really hear the difference man

[@EEVblog]

Then add Canadian maple wood PCB standoffs.

[@Asu01]

Don't forget gold-plated audio optic cable. Yes, such thing does exist on the market.

[@chaos.corner]

Gold plated insulators.

[@AttilaAsztalos]

Well it better be Oxygen-Free Gold or else...

[@robfenwitch7403]

"Send it to your metrology department" - Hmmm, it must be in the spare bedroom, I've not looked in there recently :)

[@EEVblog]

Must be sharing with your marketing and human resources departments.

[@GarryNichols]

Looking forward to the flex video. 👍

[@michelfeinstein]

Dave, I would love to see a video where you talk about those obscure uses, metallurgy and etc. I probably won't ever use it, but I find it very interesting to know more about those special use cases.

[@steverobbins4872]

I saw a KZbin video by someone a couple of years ago who used an aluminum-backed PCB as the front panel of an instrument. Apparently, they will solder-mask (paint?) and silk-screen both sides, just like a normal PCB. I think he claimed it was actually a lot cheaper than going to a place that makes custom front panels. But I can't confirm this is true. Does anyone else know?

[@EEVblog]

Yep, very likely cheaper to do it as a PCB, as that industry has been in a race to the bottom in price, so you benefit from that.

[@Keex11]

I have done this for small volume front panels for extruded enclosures as well. Works quite nicely in matte black. It is a lot cheaper than cnc parts and has more options than laser cut parts.

[@steverobbins4872]

@@Keex11 Thanks! Good to know.

[@IgnazKevenaar]

Fantastic video Dave, very informative. I'd like to see a video (or even a mini-series of design->manufacture) one day of flex pcb's. I'd imagine those have all sorts of unique design and manufacture requirements of their own. Thanks for all the great content :)

[@LebrelZ]

Hard gold is extremely difficult to solder to, but it's wire-bondable while ENIG isn't (ENEPIG is too). Immersion silver is used a lot in RF for surface-finishing uncoated traces (when you can't tolerate soldermask variability), as it's a very thin and even finish and minimizes skin effect losses. Also, the nickel in ENIG/ENEPIG ruins the day at (very) high frequencies due to its magnetic properties.

[@michelfeinstein]

Congrats to Laen from OSHPark for his nice PCB Panel appearances

[@EEVblog]

It's a great shot!

[@ChipGuy]

Yes, please do a flex PCB video. Its useful if you have limited space and you need to use flat flex connections.

[@SwitchAndLever]

So in the example you list why would you choose resin filled vias rather than plugged vias? Granted they'll be filled with different materials, but the via will still be conductive regardless.

[@JesusisJesus]

YES, do the video.Why not. Dave's book 555 projects to make with a 555 would sell well with 555 flexi PCBs.

[@artursmihelsons415]

Thank's Dave for explanation! :) Usually, for prototyping i'm make PCB's in home, but if i want to order some PCB's for bigger projects or mini mass production, this information will make my day better.. ;)

[@chaos.corner]

It's so cheap and quick now that the only real reason to make your own is if you need them right now or you just really enjoy doing it.

[@EEVblog]

I haven't made my own boards for maybe 15 years now.

[@chuckpatten7855]

If you do decide to go down the rabbit warren with rigid-flex design you might want to include forming the radius of the bend of the final flex shape using a cylindrical mandrel to determine the length of the individual flex layers.

[@steverpcb]

Great video, but you stopped before dealing with stencils, I had a look back at one of your old videos where you used a stencil which was out of date. Do negative values for paste mask work, alignment holes to suit those in the boarder of the pcb, thickness, and other stuff ?

[@simonhopkins3867]

I've considered designing a board so many times but all this has just been too much. Thanks Dave.

[@chaos.corner]

Give it a go. It's a fun skill to learn.

[@cleverhandlename]

Perfect timing Dave. Just finished a schematic, going into pcb prototyping this week!

[@timthompson468]

Thanks. That was very useful. I’ll share this around at work. I don’t need most of those options, but it’s good to know more about what is available.

[@michelfeinstein]

Another reason for blind vias is to avoid stubs on high-speed circuits, that can cause reflections and distortions.

[@thomasbecker9676]

I've had a pretty good experience with JLC thus far for hobby-type boards. EDIT: I use black soldermask, but it was a concious choice, and I'm the only one assembling them.

[@eGnarF]

Yeah, we really need a flexitron video =)

[@justfabulous3941]

About the "panel by manufacturer" option: I have experience with this specific manufacturer, they seem to be quite competent regarding their panel design. We had some back an forth regarding the edge quality of the finished product but came to a finished design within a day. They also provided me with the panel production files afterwards. I guess doing the panel yourself would give even more control but with the files in hand I could probably have them assembled without problems as well. Opinions?

[@josephchiu4034]

Edge plating are sometimes used by straddle-mount board edge sockets where the ground blade in the center of the connector connects direct into the planes.

[@iainwalker8701]

Can't imagine i will ever get a PCB made, but at least i have a good idea how to now. Very interesting video.

[@captainchapan]

Would love a video on flex PCBs please!

[@samuelschwager]

Very interesting video. There are so many options to choose from...

[@Psi105]

27:30 That board does have some blind vias on it. The via's that have two color semicircle in the middle of them are blind. The via's that are just solid brown inside are normal via's. In this case you can see the two semicircles are red and purple which means they go between those two layers. Looks to be a 10 layer board with some blind via's from L1 to L9

[@oleenick]

YES! A gigatron flex would be great.

[@MarcAntoine01]

YES! Really excited for this video!

[@thomasesr]

Usually those most expensive boards 250 dollhairs for 5 boards are better to order in bigger quantities. Like instead of 250 for 5 boards you get 350 for 50 boards or something like that.

[@poisonbiting5639]

please do a video on flex PCBs.

[@BuzzardSalve]

Very informative video dave. The flex pcb video would interest me ;)

[@klazzera]

17:02, you got the concept about Tg right, but in this case it's about the resin. For the glass fibers themselves, the Tg is around 1000 degrees celcius.

[@gustavlicht9620]

Dave, a comment about the thermal conductivity, the unit is watt per meter-kelvin (as in a product of a meter and Kelvin), not watt per milli kelvin.

[@cashewmilkfan]

47:40 plain copper can work well if you are in a low voltage sensitive circuit connection since a direct copper to copper connection generates very little thermal emf.

[@MattHollands]

Manufacturer adding UL marking makes sense because if you add it to your gerbers, and send it to a manufacturer who doesn't meet spec, it's not UL certified.

[@excitedbox5705]

That has to be some HDI via on your 1 layer board :D

[@typxxilps]

Great explanation and serious approach to bring light in the jungles ... and in a pixeled way ... hope they stop spamming cause it is the modern ages pest or cholera choice.

[@AlexA-nz6kk]

Dave, I think you are a bit wrong about a press-fit option. It is not intended for standoffs. Press-fit is for a special type of press-fit connectors (www.connectorsupplier.com/wp-content/uploads/press-fit-contact.gif) which are actually pressed into the board and have some spring type of contacts. Such technology provides better robustness to mechanical shock. If your hole would be less - the connector won't fit. If it would be a bit bigger - the connector won't stay at its place. That's why you need a better tolerance with such type of things.

[@EEVblog2]

I was just using that was an example, and I mentioned component legs.

[@Mecalas]

Thanks for adding to my education. Great job as always mate!

[@Zonkotron]

Current rating for a 48 V forklift VFD can be several hundred amps per phase. 4 and 8 ounces become very thin at those values ;)

[@trickyrat483]

Wow, that was a long one. :) Great stuff, Dave.

[@mattj2217]

I hate when solder gets wicked down my hole.

[@EEVblog]

It's the worst.

[@Basement-Science]

What´s even worse is if your *_balls_* are wicked down a hole!

[@pentachronic]

What's worse is when you get pop-corning in your hole !!

[@darkwinter6028]

You only want Goldfingers if you’re ordering 007 boards...

[@tomaszwota1465]

*plays Goldfinger theme*

[@aaron41]

"watts per mili kelvin" oof xD (watts per *meter* kelvin)

[@kuukatti]

My guess about delivery time for more layers is that they require extra time for inner layers of prepreg to cure before they stack the whole sandwich

[@TheHaters112]

By the Gods! I've never been this early for an EEVblog.

[@povicollege3055]

GREAT VIDEO Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@demoncloud6147]

Press fit holes is what I need !

[@drussell_]

This will likely be an excellent, helpful resource for many people! :) Well done, great topic.

[@PasiLassila]

I think the TG glass transition temperature is for the resin used in the PCB. Not for the glass fibres. PCBway can do both HASL and hard gold on the same board. I wonder what their process is for it.

[@damny0utoobe]

Dave explains PCB options at PCBway

[@Subbestionix]

"This video might be just as long!" *goes on 30% longer* xD Lovely video though! Second time i watch it now

[@thomasesr]

I'm currently using PCBWAY with their assembly service and parts sourcing. I must say, didn't get a dud yet...

[@thomasesr]

I usually only ask for them to assembly the real small smd's and chipies. And leave the bigger and through hole stuff to solder myself. Or, since they are already in China I ask them to source some components and leave them unsoldered because it will be cheaper to send them with the board since they buy locally than for ne to order a few parts from china. And it's usually cheaper

[@Shadowdncer]

Dave: "If you choose matte black, it doesn't let you have a black silkscreen. That makes sense." Apple: "Hold my beer!"

[@mr_gerber]

Yeah, I'm fairly certain Apple doesn't order their pcbs through the prototype web form of pcbway.com

[@StreuB1]

Finished.....I think I need a scotch and a cigarette, and I quit smoking 9 years ago. -long slow clap- this was excellent. Real top shelf stuff here Dave. Thank you and honestly, I can see this is only a beginning and can see some more knock-on videos down the road. You did too good of a job, people will want to go down the rabbit hole now. :-)

[@EEVblog]

Thanks. There are endless rabbit holes here.

[@1995epicfail]

i would love a rigid flex video.

[@MatthewSuffidy]

It is amazing if the file formats totally describe all the parameters of all these features and is standard.

[@DavidLeeKersey]

I could see use of Hard Gold for traces that are being used as control surfaces.

[@EEVblog]

For sure.

[@sablanex]

Do the flex PCB, that would be really interesting!

[@renaudfensie3020]

Nice open source padauk programmer PCB ;-) hope to get a vid about it

[@nekomasteryoutube3232]

Yeah I'd like to know about Flex PCB stuff. Most I've seen so far though is Chip on Flex stuff

[@efeyzee]

Please make a flex PCB video

[@RaithUK]

Great video thanks Dave, very helpful.

[@randycarter2001]

This kind of stuff they don't teach in electrical engineering college.

[@alejandroperez5368]

Because they're actually Electronics engineering stuff, but they don't teach you those things, because it's not something they can evaluate.

[@TheEverardo117]

Fantastic video!

[@petersage5157]

Based on the turnaround time at three-letter-acronym PCB (only ordered two so far, but in both cases it took them less than an hour to fit the board onto a panel, so what's a "standard" panel size divided by one hundredth of a square meter?) and my experience in the service industry, I'd say these guys have a near-constant stream of cheap prototype orders coming in and take in enough just from the $2 orders to keep the staff well compensated, keep the lights on and still pocket a tidy sum at the end of the day. Part of my day job involves folding a helluva lotta boxes per day. I've often said "If I had a nickel..." Then I did the math and understood just how many nickels that would be. My point is, the cheap prototype PCB fabricators have the economies of scale to turn a profit.

[@smurface549]

I wish this video existed when I ordered my first professionally made PCB, actually from the same manufacturer :-D Oh well, I just had sent a bunch of designs to save on the shipping, so now I'm a pro in avoiding any option that pushes the price beyond the $5 mark... (btw, seems like that game is lost as soon as one edge of the PCB gets longer than 100mm)

[@DavidWilliams-ov4kn]

Great video, Dave.

[@robertmccully2792]

EEVblog #1 - Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope Review 10 years ago.... What is the best scope now using that video as a guideline?

[@DantalionNl]

39:21 Do I spot an unintended bridged connection on the usb connector?

[@StreuB1]

Ok, tacos are eaten, we're 40min in and man, this is JAM PACKED!!!! This is a stellar video so far. Makes me want to design some PCB's now!! Cept I don't know how.... :-\

[@radry100]

You mention that 2 layer might be cheaper than 1 layer. What if I draw my layout in a way that just edges way all of the second layers copper? That would also result in a "2" layer board but functions like a 1 layer board.

[@Basement-Science]

They will probably still plate all your through holes.