EFAP #26 - Milking the memes through a verb's worth of Mark Brown with CynicalCJ and Jay Jay Binks

[@TaoScribble]

1:10:00 The sad thing I've learned is that there are people that legitimately believe that the only way to make women stronger is to make men weaker: My mother and I butt heads about this (tearing men down) very often. I argued that such acts aren't fighting for equality, but superiority. She said in all seriousness that the only way to make women equal is to take away from men. I don't know about other women, but I have never demonized, demeaned, demoralized, or taken away from men to make myself "equal" to them, nor have I felt the need to. That's not how equality works. And honestly that mindset is one of the most insulting things about this new wave of feminism: The idea that I'm incapable of matching a man unless I cut him down first, or remove him entirely. Maybe they're that weak, *_but I am not._* I bust my ass and never blame anything on my being a woman, because that's not an excuse. As such my ability and potential are recognized by everyone I meet, age, race, gender, and position on the corporate ladder be damned. Who knew that _not_ being a dishonest, disrespectful, condescending spaz could lead to someone at the bottom having an in-person conversation with the one at the top? That they would agree, come to understandings, and make changes on both ends that makes life better and easier for all involved? So screw all these pathetic new chicks that think the world should grovel to them to make them "equal". I'm going to keep channeling Rosie the Riveter and prove that I can match others without implementing handicap. That poster may not be perfect, but it has a much better message than "The Force is Female" and other crap like that, and presents a better role-model than Anita and those like her, and the options they put forward. If I don't get something, it's not because I'm a woman; it's because I need to try harder, get better, or try a different approach.

[@grettoonist4997]

This comment is perfect. Speaking as a male, it's so insulting to see this mindset across our culture. And the fact that this video making Leia more capable than these clumsy, dumb, incompetent males was made specifically for children (it's even marked as Kids) not only acts as more insulting since children might not have seen A New Hope or any of the originals, so this is their introduction to such great characters (including Leia AND Luke, Han and Chewie), but content like this is harmful, because it may mold these boys into men who grew up to believe that cultural diversity which is a problem in society is less men, less people like THEM. And who knows what that can lead to. I am not responsible for people from history stripping women from rights that men had at the time like voting and more options for jobs, nor have I ever stereotyped women or minorities when people from history have done that instead. The people in my family that are male, my friends that are male. We haven't contributed to superiority over women, my father could easily be that as he had the opportunity but believes in women's rights and respect JUST as he believes in men's. To the people who believe men should be shunned so women can achieve equality, what does that fact say to you? It isn't just our sexuality, race, nationality or religion, but our personality, characteristics and aspirations. Abraham Lincoln was a white male who abolished slavery, helping out black people, when the Founding Fathers had their own slaves and did nothing to stop this. Children were taken from their families and forced to work for people higher up on the social ladder, and Lincoln abolished it, and his actions would lead to amendments being established to give black people more rights. Sure, the fight for equality would continue into the 20th century, but if a person from 19th century America wanted to make changes to the system that many were massively against. And people want to follow in his footsteps and even be inspired to fight for a cause to bring equality to everyone. Do people that say "less for men, more for women" see history like it's association football? That they see patriarchies and women not allowed to vote and see it as Men 1, Women 0? Personally, I would like the future to have equal rights for everyone regardless of our sexuality or skin colour, and that our society is founded on smart decisions and ethical practices creating a stable environment by those who can achieve that, no matter who they are. But I guess these people would look at that and generalise it as Men 2, Women 1, and are still peeved that men have had a longer history of superiority than women and that's honestly sickening. Going back to this Star Wars animation, I won't assume that the people behind this had that agenda, because I don't know them but this short still pushes it, intentionally or not. And as MauLer said, Leia wasn't a female stereotype. Did she have to be rescued a couple of times throughout the original trilogy? Yes, but she was still indeed "strong, sassy and assertive" with a personality and purpose in the films. She didn't stand around doing nothing while the males rescued her in that scene, she offered to help by suggesting a possible way to escape the Stormtroopers. Sure, it gets them into a problem that could've killed them but could you imagine if Disney removed any bit of character Leia had to make her a more obvious "strong female character" while reducing Luke and Han to selfish and useless, it would be so disrespectful to not only audiences, kids who deserve to be taught the true meaning of diversity, but also to the creators of the films and characters who made them likable and balanced because they wanted to make a quality product, and that's what they achieved. Imagine if Disney tried to pull a stunt like that, vandalising someone else's property for their own benefit. Oh wait, they did. I can only imagine what George Lucas is thinking now. All I can say is thank you for speaking out against this.

[@crispychips7161]

Two and half long men

[@leonhartdragomir8948]

Fucking great comment. Your self-confidence and maturity are inspiring.

[@rockerknight25]

Well spoken.

[@mechanicpluto2430]

Grettoonist speaks the truth, and nothing but the truth. Absolutely well said.

[@JayExci]

This title isn't funny at all how dare you.

[@FailoReachForge]

@@discofraud NO IT'S AN OBJECTIVE FACT REEEEEE

[@Emperor_Toxatine]

Mockery: Shut up Jay Jay! Go milk a future spider!

[@Vazkiel]

Love the new icon Jay!

[@Vazkiel]

@@Emperor_Toxatine If you could comment on more things, that would be awesome. I love the way you speak, my favorite murderbot!!!

[@Emperor_Toxatine]

viczam9 Clarification: I comment quite often, but im not surprised your flabby meatbag eyeballs did not see it. Addendum: You are wise for choosing me as your favorite droid at putting...an end to hostilities and facilitating communications.

[@Syy]

That Kingsman meme was S tier shit. Well done.

[@saragos1216]

Fuck off syy

[@vadandrumist1670]

They need to at the end of the year make a stream dedicated solely to looking back on the best EFAP memes of the year.

[@Vazkiel]

@@vadandrumist1670 an episode dedicated solely to the lore and memes of the Holy EFAP Trinity and our Lord Jared?!?!?! My body is ready!!!

[@Muck006]

@@vadandrumist1670 Not possible ... unless you can somehow make them stream for a solid week. Stuff always gets longer in an EFAP.

[@vadandrumist1670]

Muck006 Maybe just the top ten. No five. No... one to three. Maybe half of the best one.

[@maskofthedragon]

The most inconsistent character in EP9 will be Leia She'll be normal in 1 scene, Cgi in another, and voiced over by someone else in yet another

[@VelvetIcematoro]

Appareantly they will *not* do a CGI Leia, and instead just have some old unused takes. The voice thing might indeed happen tho.

[@BlackLegion12621]

Well, as it turns out, she's all CG and voiced using archives of Carrie Fisher's voice.

[@froggerpirate]

Confirmed Lando is going to be a grey Jedi who will also kill Fin cuase there can only be one black protagonist per trilogy

[@krissuyx]

Nah, Finn will kill Lando. Must destroy all originals!

[@ProjectRedfoot]

This galaxy ain't big 'nough for 2 black bad-asses!

[@TheWingusDingus]

Lando will take a mortal wound but before his potential death he will fuse with Finn. The newly formed Linndo will merge minds with the Millennium Falcon's hidden fembot ai and will become the first transgender, trans-species/transbot and will also gain force powers. She/he/they/it bot will join Rey to defeat cis white male Sith (Palpatine) and will forever rid the galaxy of non diversity and will form the first Republic of NPCs.

[@icantstopsparkling7450]

Nightwing Grayson Why would you post spoilers like that

[@rockerknight25]

@@TheWingusDingus That's gonna be the next spin-off. Linndo: A Black-Trans-Robot Story.

[@spearhead7777]

Blindly stumbling toward an objective is a good way to describe TLJ thou.

[@sadboipotato3382]

That implies TLJ had a point.

[@BetterCallStan]

@@sadboipotato3382 oooooooooh Ooooooooh

[@BRAINFOXINFINITE]

"We relate to her due to her verbs and her character." -Bilboline Baggiens

[@wearywanderer7018]

Well done 😂

[@Leotheleprachaun]

69th like

[@elijah8251]

There are 3 dogs in the stream.

[@prolattee]

Making fun of you Show watch dogs 3 confirmed!!!

[@GhostLink92]

That's just your opinion.

[@zakuhtet3775]

DID YOU JUST ASSUME MAULER'S GENDER!?

[@elijah8251]

@@GhostLink92 you get to look at dogs though.

[@elijah8251]

@@zakuhtet3775 yes

[@grandarkfang_1482]

Verbs? Did you mean A C T I O N S ? ! *Perfect Cell's scream gets louder*

[@somedude5819]

Oh no, a reference none of them would get because they aren't weeaboos

[@somedude5819]

I'm sad jojo references flies over their heads.

[@grandarkfang_1482]

@@somedude5819 ah it's fine, they have computers. If they cared about it, they'd look it up.

[@somedude5819]

@@zogwort1522 varivarivarivaried verbs.

[@Gamsterjeff600]

You dont have to be a weeb to know what dragon ball z is.

[@solarsailer4166]

Oh, MauLer, what have you done? How much therapy and/or booze is Rags going to need to get over all this verbage?

[@sugarysugarysweet]

Wow, another EFAP the next day? Praise Jared!!! Also, i'm glad you all really liked my video, and the fact that you noticed Theo's comment. Every frame a pause indeed!

[@Zonalar]

You're doing Lords work

[@TOONYBOY]

@@Zonalar Which Lord? What master do you serve?

[@FreeDemonSoul]

In Morrowind questgivers give you all needed info, you just haven't floating arrows. I think he speaks about problem like for example: in Skyrim if you want experience Morrowind-like, you turn off markers, BUT (big but, like arse) your journal don't specify exact location in description (like Morrowind had). So all this "just turn it off" is bullshit, because devs don't bother to provide alternative source of information about a quest.

[@FreeDemonSoul]

In MW journal will have something like: "south from Balmora little cave near river", and Skyrim will be: "kill bandits in cave", and what cave, where, how far - it's all missing.

[@Arturhorn]

dude. I have wife, kids and two jobs, and desperately look for a scraps of time to make some skull on wheels with doggos fanart.

[@Superschokokeks]

priorities man, priorities!

[@gudarai]

Mauler you have to make EFAP dance the official intro for every EFAP

[@OutsideTheTargetDemographic]

Agreed

[@Gevaudan1471]

I second this.

[@cecilofchristmaspast4186]

Rags, honey. If you go to a locked door in RE, it will make the door red. That's your "marker". Also, the specific chained door even says "chained door" on your map. You get the bolt cutters sort of early so you dont even have many places to go. As well the game is littered with markers, items you need, havent picked up, save spots, photo development, etc. If you're only okay with the game that's fine, but backtracking is kind of a staple of old RE games, and the remake, while flawed is pretty good about keeping the old quirks of the original in there. Love you still!

[@StrikeTeam99]

RE 7 was just amnesia silent hills, RE2 remake is back to how the franchise always was Rags just is more an FPS guy in general. I prefer RE be third person.

[@cecilofchristmaspast4186]

@@StrikeTeam99 I'm the same. I also didn't get the same out of RE7 as Rags, it just felt like a good enough horror FPS, not an actual RE game.

[@CMCAdvanced]

@@cecilofchristmaspast4186 RE 7 felt exactly like a resident evil game, it was just in first person. The tank controls, the backtracking, the item management, it's all there

[@velessia4840]

sadly for me the imersions work only if i'm in a first person view, i might be third person retarded.

[@MistaHoward]

Yeah their arguments against Mark Brown were pretty weak, even though Mark's argument also was. If a game needs objective markers, it shouldn't be open world. You can turn off objective markers in lots of games, but do that and see how long you last without them before you get a quest that gives you no directions - it won't be long. The few exceptions prove the rule. Their arguments are essentially "open world games should be made for people who find open world gameplay tedious."

[@jamescawl6904]

Why is rags always your featured youtuber??? Have someone other than him in I'm tired of constant incromehensiple barking.

[@dylanbell268]

Same

[@SangheiliSpecOp]

He makes my rag wet

[@SangheiliSpecOp]

Seriously tho Rags is the mandog yo.

[@pablofawkes2841]

"Arf arf" -Bilbo Raggins

[@pezdispencer113]

@@pablofawkes2841 *Raggin's

[@CalebHimself]

Well Rags to be fair to Resident Evil 2, the map shows all the locations in different colors depending upon if you completely explored the area or not. The non-explored areas are in black which I see can be a problem for some people, explored areas are in red, and completed areas are in blue.

[@samuel5591]

I have just fnished my RE2 replays and gotta say the map system is one of the simplest, clearest I've seen.

[@alexharmonymusic3068]

That "part one" plot twist was absolutely hilarious. MauLer, you are evil for keeping that from Rags. Poor doggo.

[@TheKaappari]

I don't think Rags should be drinking.

[@lesyablackbird]

Had to stop watching this and to watch The Not So Great Debate. ....WOW. My brain hurts now. I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like that before.

[@shutit8949]

Wait are you saying you don’t like Disney fanatical Star Wars?

[@MaddEndd]

The THEME of this stream will be the VERBS instead of words.

[@OutsideTheTargetDemographic]

The rain is Spain falls mainly in the plains.

[@CruelestChris]

"Verba non verba" - Julius Caesar von Baggins

[@S4ns]

Rags, it's survival horror, it's not going to draw you a nice line to the next objective.

[@samuel5591]

[@thelax5311]

By now Jay is the official fourth host.

[@Superschokokeks]

No, dude. Jay is the boss of efap for month

[@danishcartoonist545]

They declared Theo the 5th member of EFAP back when he first came on, and I think it was implied Fringy was the 4th?

[@fluff6811]

@@danishcartoonist545 Fringy is officially the new 3rd host, Metal is also technically a host since he’s on literally every EFAP at this point, and honestly I love it.

[@eachasteriod1334]

About RE2, If rags had checked a chained door at any point earlier it would’ve permanently showed up on the map saying it was a chained door. Seems like he’s blaming the game for his own incompetence

[@S4ns]

Rags always struck me as a FPS guy, so third person Metroidvania style might not be his thing.

[@deeta000]

S4ns Not just that, anyone who likes it has low standards. Go fuck yourself, Rags.

[@Gamsterjeff600]

Maybe because not everyone is as smart as you?

[@paragonpoints8420]

He also blames the game for bad combat. He does realize that you’re supposed to avoid the zombies, right?

[@todd7240]

Though a problem for the door marker, it should be a proximity instead of action activated with the awkward camera angles.

[@Nick_Hammer]

hello all my n words.

[@meris8486]

THAT'S RACIST YOU CAN'T SAY THE N WORD

[@mr.m2914]

Blessed pipeman, that is all

[@SideBurns]

Wassup Tarkin

[@TheOneShotWunda]

7:11 Jared looks like Bling Bling Boy from Johnny Test in that drawing 😂👌

[@davidgallego1652]

4:18:00 “it’s time that we finally get a depiction of Mulan that is a strong, black male character” -Rags 2019

[@aaronmueller1560]

Mark Brown videos are the KZbin equivalent of loading screen tips

[@aaron_431]

That clone wars bit at about 30 minutes in was freaking awesome. Loved the series, Love EFAP! Looking forward to the next one!

[@AlecRozsa]

1:40:00 Lol Ever play Morrowind? It has good directions and a good exploration. There's also no way of knowing if you have completed objectives within a quest because the journal doesn't tell you. It just says "journal updated" and you have to figure out where you are. Also, he is being disingenuous when he says Morrowind does not leave bread crumbs. It definitely does, just fewer. Usually the directions given by NPCs are like this: "Go to that location that's already marked on your map, and take the road east until you see a fort" Most of the time it's still very straight forward.

[@Party_Almsivi]

Sometimes the location will actually be marked/revealed on your map, too. I think it’s usually in the main quest or some of the faction quests. Plus, you can set waypoints manually, giving yourself an arrow on the compass that you can blindly stumble subserviently towards.

[@WayoftheFerret]

"Chat, if you've never been used an object, you should try it." Rags confirmed bottom

[@sithsaiyan4529]

Oh yeah, he’s also said he’s a size queen.

[@Rakkhot]

I do like the way it was in Morrowind, that you only saw where you have been on the map, but the map could still use some modernization so that you could navigate it much better and find places that you have already been to easier, because with the map as it is in the unmodded game it can be a real struggle to find a certain location even if you already found it sometime before

[@ATG_reviews]

Fun fact That Leia rescue video is blocked in Russia by uploader

[@ilocosmetro]

Semper Fidelis, Rags. You filled in for Wolf so well, you had your brain breaking moment with Mark Brown. At least it wasn’t MovieBob?

[@AndrzejGieraltCreative]

Here's the thing that I think Mark probably was unclear about or just didn't mention. In Morrowind, you do have a journal (which was annoying to use prior to the Tribunal DLC because you'd write everything NPCs said as you rather than organizing them according to quests) but the good thing was that the NPCs gave you very specific directions (apparently sometimes they were unclear, I never had that experience but that definitely seems like something that could have happened a lot) but those directions -were- written in the journal. The design itself was good they just would have had to make the directions more clear/did the work to double check if they made changes to the world etc (just improving the elements of a game as you make more games right). If you make it optional, then what you end up with is vague two step directions like "oh yeah he lives in a house in x city" or "there's a cave just outside the town" like ok I turn my map markers off that doesn't tell me anything, I have no evidence to go off of I have to landmarks to look for. But if they say "His house is the one right next to the main tavern in the city, I think his wife does a lot of gardening outside, you can tell the house by the exotic flowers" or "there's a cave to the south of the town, west of the river, if you hit the bridge you've gone too far, it's just up the hill" and you maybe see blood tracks on the ground or whatever (and it's not like witcher 3 where the blood literally glows thirty feet ahead of you lol) - this is what is meant by turning off your brain and just passively following the line. If they are able to put in the work to give detailed worldbuilding and write detailed accurate directions and give toggleable map markers then sure that's fine but I guess the real problem is that games don't give real directions. Thoughts?

[@challengingyou212]

Thank you, I was searching through the comments from newest to oldest and you were the first to say this. I feel like mark butchered it by not saying this exact argument and that caused the efap crew to have a rare moment where they barely take the points seriously at all

[@samuel5591]

Yeah anyone who has played Thief knows it's totally achievable to have no markers whatsoever, and even a bare-bones map, while providing enough clues to get the player where they need to be. I think the problem is that open world games are so vast the player could literally be starting from anywhere, and still need to be able to find the destination. I frequently pick up a bunch of quests all at once and work through them so an npc giving directions like "it's right behind my house" is met with immediate panic as I try and figure out where the hell the npc actually is!

[@shutit8949]

Morrowind is one of my Favourite games because of how well it’s done. if you don’t know where something is 99% of the time it’s because you the player have not been paying attention.

[@herrikudo]

Love this podcast, it has been a tremendous source of tips and debate on writing. Keep it up gentlemen! Also... JAY JAY BINKS IS LOVE AND LIFE. HE IS NEW SHREK.

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

RIP shrek. lets hope jar jar doesn't get shrekt by yen sid

[@DanielChico09]

Personally I rely on map marks because I'm lazy, I don't care for cartography and I will eventually explore everything anyway. That said, I understand why some people resent them. Even if you can turn of the compass anytime you want most games are designed around those gps directions. The problem players who like to roleplay usually have isn't that map markers are an option, is that the in universe clues were never implemented because of the assumption that the players would use the map markers. Imagine, for example, a fan of Morrowind trying to play the sequels the same way. With few exceptions the best they can hope is for the desperate shopkeeper to at least tell the name of the cave where she lost her ring, but most likely you will get a caravan guard saying nothing more than bandits stole his amulet. Can you understand why such person would resent the adoption of map marks even if they can turned off?

[@lexbaldwin5613]

This is the type of discussion I was hoping for when they were taking on the mark brown video. What we got was more "mark you're a fucking idiot for saying that!"

[@MauLerYT]

That would mean they failed to have the option. 1. The option to use the real world alone 2. The option to use a quest marker When we said it's fine if they can turn off the map markers that doesn't mean we are happy even if there is no reasonable way to discern the location otherwise. By option, we're suggesting that they have both to choose from. That would require sign posts in many ways and to a certain degree while having a system like an arrow or dotted line for those who have the preference for it. I think Bioshock would be an example of that, you can make your way around the world with labels and descriptions but you can also have the quest arrow on or off. But resenting them in the case you provided is not because of them but because something else isn't there, which is still a valid complaint (The lack of in-world guidance) but not what we were talking about when discussing Mark's points on immersion. The next EFAP will be a bit of time from now but I will make sure to clarify it on the opening of the next one. We do not think quest markers are a good substitute for real world guidance for everyone.

[@DanielChico09]

@@MauLerYT That's fair. Sorry if I sounded condescend but that was the only valid point Mark made and the only response was "than turn the map mark on". At the time I thought you didn't understood the argument. If you ever want to discuss this subject further I would suggest watching Gopher's video instead of Mark.

[@MauLerYT]

@@DanielChico09 Sure, no problem :)/

[@Prolute]

But you made fun of his complaints about The Witcher 3 by saying that it was optional. That contradicts what you're saying here as that game doesn't offer a reasonable alternative to following the quest marker.

[@jjred2986]

49:50 If the person who made this meme video is reading this, I just wanna say you're amazing! The editing is near perfection and your effort and dedication is very apparent! GREAT WORK! May the DON bless you! 💖💗💕🦏🥛🐔🕷

[@saltytattie833]

I love how Jay is basically the 4th host. Comparative to any other guest he has recurred the most amount of times, despite initially being an enemy.

[@denkerbosu3551]

The one with msot appearances as a guest is Rags tho.

[@marshalboyd3664]

And now, in the grand year of 2023 Fringy rules.

[@angelajansons9037]

I was squealing with laughter at the "modified verbs part". Holy shit guys

[@wrayday7149]

You missed the disdain in Princess Leia's face when Luke told her he was here to rescue her.

[@jgamer2228]

Because how dare a _man_ rescue her. Never mind the fact that she was in a prison cell to begin wjth

[@akashajones6079]

@@jgamer2228Or maybe she doesn't trust this random person claiming to be here to help her?

[@theaspiringwriter7249]

EFAP BOOK THREE: [To Be Named] CHAPTER TWO: The Dotted Line

[@jotun.616]

In most cases an argument can be made that NOT having quest markers breaks immersion. Say the witcher, geralt is supposed to know the lands. He shouldnt be getting lost, or intentionally wandering off target. Fallout 4, nick knows the general layout of the city, but for specific places he would need and use a map. No one gives turn by turn directions in any of these games so maps and markers are completely fitting to almost any lore.

[@gogglebrains]

A few hours into this, I think Mark does have a decent point in the first video. I'd point to Morrowind and Oblivion for a more clear-cut comparison between two extremes. Morrowind has map markers only for major locations, and no quest markers; instead, most questgivers give you fairly detailed directions based on strong geographical markers such as roads, rivers, and canyons (and these directions are automatically logged in your quest journal for easy reference). I would argue that this approach objectively requires the player to be more engaged and attentive while traveling, and to know and understand the design of the world in a much more meaningful way. For myself and I suspect many other players, this is a uniquely immersive aspect of the game. On the other hand, as Rags points out, being unable to find something can be very frustrating and immersion-breaking, and unfortunately there are a handful of prominent quests in Morrowind that give you overly-vague directions. On the other hand you have Oblivion, which has markers on your map and compass that point you directly to almost every quest objective in the entire game. Questgivers almost never give you directions for navigating the overworld, and moreover, the world tends to be fairly flat and open, as opposed to Morrowind or Skyrim's pervasive mountains and canyons. As such, traveling to quest objectives usually amounts to running thoughtlessly through the woods in a straight line towards your objective, occasionally trying to jank-jump up a hill. Engagement with and understanding of the world are neither required by the quest design nor encouraged by the world design. Personally, while I remember many of Oblivion's quests quite fondly, the A-to-B journeys mean very little to me whatsoever -- in stark contrast to Morrowind, where such journeys were often deeply satisfying in their own right. Finally, while mods do exist for games like Oblivion to disable quest objective markers, doing so doesn't automatically provide the same satisfaction as Morrowind's approach. The first problem is that, as previously stated, Oblivion's dialogue and quest logs don't provide directions; by solely removing quest markers, you'd rarely have any idea where to go whatsoever. Therefore, a modder seeking to fix this problem would have to edit the quest logs to add in useful directions... which brings me to the second problem: Oblivion's world is simply not designed for this approach. It's lacking in significant geographical features on which to base intuitive and detailed directions, probably because it was designed alongside a quest system that simply shows you exactly where to go at all times. In short, switching from Oblivion's quest-navigation approach to Morrowind's is not as easy as turning off a few HUD elements. TLDR; I don't think Mark's too far off base. I wouldn't say one option is objectively more immersive than the other, but they are truly distinct approaches that each have their own value, aren't necessarily easily interchangeable, and different types of players may have greater appreciation for one or the other. That said, as someone who find's Morrowind's approach deeply satisfying, it's disappointing how few games follow in its footsteps.

[@seanmac1793]

Well the problem is the size of the world. Modern devs focus on building bigger worlds so the objective markers are the only way that is feasible. But in smaller scale games you can design your world in this way. It's a complex topic that certainly wasn't solved in the 8 minute analysis video that essential says the way modern games do it is bad. It was also not solved by the efap response. It will likely never be solved. But I know that world size sells open world games and as long as that is true we will see games with the former system as a opposed to the latter.

[@luiseatoll6368]

I think him lumping the Witcher into the things he sees like an issue rubbed them the wrong way. If anything, that game is an exemplar of doing both, making it more accessible to a wider audience with varying expectations in what they want to experience. He could make a point that doing both can get more audiences and it is a good idea to go that extra mile. But we get this dreary video that's mixed with nostalgia and sells itself as if a definitive answer about the matter of immersion.

[@hassathunter2464]

Have to disagree with quite a bit here. Yes, optional would be best. Problem is most modern games don't give directions like Witcher 3. Just "marked on map" and disabling isn't an option since you never get anything but the marker. Most modern games like Divinity: Original Sin 2 show developers lost the touch of lightposting locations without having a marker point them out explicitelly. Old games the journal gives all you need (without being a walkthrough) but that art got lost. As for Rag's issue walking up to all doors to see which is chained, what? Wouldn't a chained door look different. Just look, no walking up required. Only the worst of games do not portal this by making the doors look different. Remembering things of the past is the main thing of Metrovania and LEGO games. And we can't remember 2 locations while these have dozens. Might be an user-issue in this case.

[@Superschokokeks]

Gothic 2 is a great example..

[@Prolute]

Yeah, this was definitely the weakest EFAP so far. They've basically disregarded exploration as a gameplay mechanic. Rags even uses taking notes as an example of something bad.

[@matthewbailey2744]

@@Prolute I definitely missed some of that video, so I don't know the full context here. Was Rags referring to taking notes in or out of game. Because one of those I can agree with and the other is rather tedious and annoying.

[@Superschokokeks]

@@matthewbailey2744 taking notes outside of the game can be fun considering the genre. For games like witcher 3 journal entry notes are better. For puzzle solving making your own makes more fun because figuring out what's important is part of the puzzle. There is no real right way to do stuff like that. It depends what you're aiming for. Mindless exploration and questing, do the skyrim way. For more immersive and thinking do it like gothic 2

[@Prolute]

Which do you consider tedious and annoying?

[@kieranholmes8086]

Being around since the start of all this lore is brilliant I’m so proud of this community

[@Courier_6]

1:49:28 ikr Hard to explore when it just yanks you from where your standing into a cutscene or new area loading screen with no way to revisit previous areas. Many secrets remain in such cases. I suppose a case could be made in the case of ‘replay-value’, but still. Breaks immersion... And my child-like sense of wonder

[@Wyzai]

2:44:50 I'm just wondering how long is he going to go on about this standard stuff. The way he phrased it, I was expecting him to give examples of a button press doing different things in different situations, like how the reload button might also be the interact button in a shooter. Instead he's just explaining how you can press a button in different ways. it's like explaining how a thumbstick measures two axises and it can be used to both move forwards... AND BACKWARDS!

[@spartakick300FF5]

Thank you fr uploading so fast. First stream in a while I had missed.

[@neropunkt]

turn notifications on. he keeps all the streams as unlisted, so when you click on the notification, after the stream is over, you can watch it before he uploads them here 🐺🥛 🐶🥛 💀🚐🥛 🦏🥛

[@coherentramblings7326]

Watchmojo just did a top 10 list of “underrated KZbin channels” and gamer from mars got the number 2 spot... *sigh*

[@TheFizio]

Like jesus i could just read a Wikia page of a Warframe in a posh voice and sell it

[@ChaddyFantome]

I've seen that Mario Jump video in my recommended. I never clicked it and now Im glad i never did lol.

[@samwallaceart288]

I'm kind of on Mark's side on the map marker thing. I much prefer it when games give me good in-world directions, rather than just marking it on Google maps. The latter can be set up by the studio intern, while the former would require careful writing from the team and double-checking with the design guys. The "have in-world navigational clues" method is way harder to pull of, but if done right my ideal playstyle especially for openworlders. What can I say, I just like finding the hidden booty for myself.

[@LTDLetsPlays]

i think it would depend on the game for some games map markers hinder it metroid vanias the one who did it well was hollow knight sure markers exist but you do buy them for your convience you can do well even without them and for games like EXTREMELY BİG open world games it is better to have markers because player is very likely to get lost like Assasins creed and what not it all depends on the genre and type of game it is

[@matthewmuir8884]

@Psychotic Gamer Breath of the Wild has an extremely huge open world, and, where there is a mini-map and a full map, you don't have to use it; the game is very good at giving in-world directions.

[@Epsilon191]

Some people don't have time for that

[@TheAmazoman]

The EFAP dance, clone wars battle and kingsman slaughter memes were all amazing. I can’t decide which one I like the most!

[@BaldorfBreakdowns]

A huge benefit to having a dotted line, is that you can go literally everywhere else first and still know where to go after. This allows you to purposefully avoid doing the main quest and focus on checking other places. So in reality, having a dotted line can encourage exploration. Now you know that if you follow the dotted line there aren't going to be secrets there and, if you get lost exploring, you can just follow the line and get back on track.

[@ronin_0421]

The HUD fade is the best! Sekiro does it perfectly

[@Leuber]

Watching this in January 2021, got to around the 4 hours mark... “will Trump get banned from Twitter” Well yes, orange man bad, hail the blessed pipeman and subscribe to Jaredgenesis.

[@yusiuc5533]

And Jared took carrot , and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying “This is my sandwich, which is given to EFAP. Do this in remembrance of me”. And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is poured out for you is the new rhino milk in my blood”.

[@zachgilbert3815]

Drink it okay the way that you drink it.

[@matthewmuir8884]

2:08:44 I know that game; that's Fallout 3. That game forces you to rely on the indicator on the bottom-left of the screen! If you could remove it, you wouldn't be able to complete the game! That game should be the antithesis of Mark Brown's point (and frankly something that he could've used for his what-not-to-do that would've been a far better example than The Witcher 3)

[@majdjinn5042]

...it shows on the map if you touched the door, you pass the chains doors multiple times before getting the bolt cutters, just sayin

[@Courier_6]

Hud elements should cater to both tastes. One being the minimalist, with all ‘hand-holding elements’ removed, (like radar/enemy-tracking-on-compass). The other being the standard. Personally, I am more inclined to choose the minimalist way, as it brings more challenge and engagement with the increased number of uncertainties. Why I always removed those two enemy tracking elements from games like Halo and Fallout. They are linear enough already that it removes much of the sport. One exception for Halo games would be the very rare instances when the player is ambushed by a big fuck-off-army of enemies.

[@sw1tchpoint]

I've been enjoying RE2, but I like the old style of those type of games. Sorry Rags but subjectively I disagree with you. However to each their own, I can understand the game is not your cup of tea

[@GamePlayMetal]

Finally watched the Grey because Wolf can't fucking shut up about it in every other podcast. ... Have I been trolled? It's okay, but it doesn't deserve to be called a masterpiece. AT ALL.

[@sithsaiyan4529]

He loves it because he’s a depressed individual and there’s wolves in it……..

[@HeavenShallTremble]

Actually the "Following a dotted line guy" made some good points, but he structured the video quiet badly. I recommend on the same topic the video "Thief and AAA Gaming".

[@HeavenShallTremble]

Also this is the reason why I think they should watch the full video first and then start again and go through it bit by bit.

[@samuel5591]

Agree - that Thief video is an excellent argument for minimising maps and markers. Felt the EFAP guys were being really disengenuous to Mark here.

[@NickPoeschek]

When I was a kid, I played things like text-based games and NES RPG where the game had very little information. I used to have a little binder where I had my own hand-drawn maps. While it’s easy to look back with nostalgia, old games were also a colossal pain in the ass sometimes. I used to love Sierra On-Line adventures but once I was able to access online walk throughs in the early 90s, was super annoyed to discover that things they I got stuck on were a result of not structuring my sentences right or using the wrong words when typing text commands. Those games were great, but there’s a reason we expect more player-friendly design these days.

[@TheRedGauntlet]

laughed too hard at Rags losing his shit at the end of Mark brown's video XD

[@Laxhoop]

If you know where progress in a game is, that way you can also know where it isn’t, so you’re free to explore all the areas that don’t have “breadcrumbs” lain about them.

[@scorpionlord9175]

"i like these side quests(treasure maps) that dont hold your hand and make you explore!" one of the games he lists is black flag, where he ignores that said maps give you exact coordinates where the map is, you go to the island, then its a simple matter of looking at the map to see what things your looking for on the island. so yeah, thats a bad example, cause while there isnt a dotted line, black flag tells you EXACTLY where to go, then they just leave where on the island (that are usually small) where the treasure is.

[@Electroshockist]

In relation to Mark Brow at 1:33:33, When I have a mission marked on the map, I deliberately avoid that area to explore areas around and in the direction of the quest.

[@samuel5591]

I do the same - Suspect it comes from all the times we've been locked out of returning to an area, or the main questline accelerating us away from it. We've been trained to explore everywhere else first, and then go do the main questline - in that scenario quest markers are really useful. It's almost like... it depends on the game and the player! For my money, open world games work better with clear markers or directions, where smaller mission-style worlds are fine without.

[@theaspiringwriter7249]

EFAP BOOK THREE: [To Be Named] CHAPTER TWO: The Dotted Guide

[@aaram9966]

It doesn't have any objective markers but it has a few subjective markers

[@ian-op5fv]

Bad arguments against the map video. He's advocating for games to give you in-universe instructions on how to get to a location. In Fo4 you often get no written information on how to get to a location, only "go get/do x". For players that want to adventure; turning off markers doesn't fix that issue, as you would have to randomly happen upon your mission objective. You guys are arguing against a strawman because you're attempting to score a gotcha before even getting the full context of what he's advocating for. Especially you, rags. Bad doggo, don't bite the scarecrow.

[@TimtheWinzard]

Morrowind aged like fine wine you tasteless hacks, and most of those non-GPS games have in-game journals or maps that keep track of all the needed info. It's also not RE2re's fault that Rags can't use the map, nor remember things. Remembering the map layout and paths is a core aspect of the survival horror genre. Rags is just conflating his dislike of the genre with bad game design. All that said, the GMT dude was really just emphasizing one likable aspect and de-emphasizing other likable aspects. It's pretty disingenuous to act like that one design is objectively better than the other. They both have their places and strengths.

[@MasterDecoy1W]

Not to belittle the work that people have put into the memes, but you can create tracking objects that will follow things on screen and attach text or images to them. They still have to coordinate it with all the cuts, but they most likely aren't moving these things frame by frame, Mauler.

[@AliceJameson]

If he had said blindly following quest marker to quest marker that probably would have made more sense, but yeah blindly stumbling is like the opposite of what he's getting at.

[@grantg610]

That “a day in the life of MauLer” was the greatest thing I’ve ever seen😂

[@THEEEYeti]

so I just found a video of Mark Brown giving a live talk and its basically like one of his videos, except people actually paid(I'm assuming) to come and sit and have him explain stuff to them like they have no idea what a game is.

[@117Haseo]

I don't agree with your opinion on Resident Evil 2 Remake Rags but I can respect it.

[@jcboyle82]

117Haseo I would respect it if he didn’t act like is opinion is correct (something they fight against on this channel)

[@kelp7060]

@@jcboyle82 Of course he believes his opinion is correct! The fans defending it believe they're correct that's it's special. I'm sure you believe you're correct in saying it's great, or whatever you rate it. He's just cocky and confident.

[@kelp7060]

@Vandole That's the point of most remakes though, to give a different version by different artists, usually by fucking it up. I hate most remakes myself, but I don't know about this one since I ain't no RE fan.

[@rileycord1248]

Legitimately love these guys but Rags's RE2 rant triggered me a little

[@cecilofchristmaspast4186]

When he calls out guy really bugged me. If you go to each door when you explore it marks it on the map for you, and Rags is just saying "duh if you go to the door you found the door" hes saying it's too easy, but he got confused by a door. Which is marked "chained door" on the map. If he doesnt like the game that's fine, but when people point out his mistake he doesnt need to act like WE are the idiots for pointing it out.

[@ThriceAsLong]

​@@cecilofchristmaspast4186 He clearly went into it hating it based on the previous efap. He's already made up his mind.

[@StrikeTeam99]

He prefers fps horror and not classic RE

[@deeta000]

StrikeTeam7 So everything has to be an FPS?

[@StrikeTeam99]

@@deeta000 Nope was talking about rags preference, I prefer classic RE and Even action RE. I was annoyed by RE7 first person view being basically like silent hills/ amnesia and the over all shift in art style capcom is doing now.

[@rickylonghaul682]

Mark Brown sounds like he makes these videos for game developers who don't actually play games. I could see his content being useful for them and literally no one else. P.s. if you don't play games, please don't make them.

[@SpikeJet2736]

"Games like Thief and Deus Ex didn't have this" yeah and they didn't didn't take place in gigantic worlds either. I don't need a map or gps for my fucking house

[@bobtheelder7]

Why in God's name does this guy keep using verb when he means action? Just because verbs denote actions linguistically speaking doesn't mean that the two words are mutually interchangeable.

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

1:39:05 That's a shitty argument, because A: You can pause and save your game, therefore, how much, and when you work IRL is completely irrelevant. B: The idea of people having to use their brain to get from A to B is not a bad thing now? People get frustrated by not being lost? Well tough shit, people get frustrated by games all the time, tough boss battles, enemies spawning behind you, ect... games will frustrate you all the time. Also you what is immersion breaking for me? My horse running on her first two, with her ass flailing in the air!

[@davidgallego1652]

3:37:30 origin of the “fat people get to vote twice” meme

[@bohemicbohemian9190]

Mass effect 3 is prime example of failed versatile verbs. The "Use" verb is used for to many verbs

[@Wyzai]

1:39:25 Yes. I've played WoW classic and recently been rather frustrated by a series of quests that give you helpful directions such as "He left on a boat. I would assume he crashed somewhere on the coast" and "He must've gone towards the gnoll camps in Southern Feralas. Search them for his traces" (said area is rather large and contains 2 caves and another 5 or so different camps). One extreme example is a dwarf that only tells you to bring him "A sack of Oats" that is in fact located ON THE OTHER CONTINENT.

[@randomguru93]

The first time I played Fallout 3, I followed the map markers for the main missions before everything else, and it was the worst game i had played up until then. the second time I played fallout 3, i explored the map first, and it was INFINITELY better. I just ignored the dotted line.

[@HyoureiKyouran]

The map mechanics in Miasmata is actually pretty neat. I would love to see it in more games.

[@paragonpoints8420]

I was playing MGSV while I was listening to this, so now whenever I think of Mark Brown I’ll always think about sneaking around Code Talker’s mansion.

[@AlextheK]

Currently at 2:21:15 - It's kinda hard to listen to you guys when you seem to - almost on purpose - miss the point Brown is making, which is that Games (especially RPGs) today are designed in such a way that necessitates the use of (mini)maps, compasses and quest markers. It is pointless to make options to hide maps and quest markers, if the developer and writers are not taking this into account. It didn't used to be this way, though. Games like Deus Ex, Gothic (1 and 2), Morrowind, Resident Evil, Kotor, the old Fallout games, Baldur's Game, Vampire Bloodlines (I think?), hell even Persona 1 - 4 and SMT did not have, and did not need quest markers (or minimaps for the most part). Why? Because the worlds were designed to be memorable (with land marks, sign posts, interesting locations, ingame maps (as items - not in the hud) etc.). In quests you were given instructions on where to go, you had to familiarize yourself with the world, the surroundings, and not stupidly follow a quest marker. Maybe you are too young to remember that (especially considering that Rags seems to be baffled by RE2 design), but there used to be quite a bit of controversy when Oblivion decided to introduce quest markers. Many didn't like that change - me included - since it dumbed the whole experience down to "follow marker - get reward - repeat". I have yet to see an RPG that is actually enhanced by having quest markers instead of directions provided inside the world. That said, I am kinda rambling now, so I leave it at that, still like you guys, even though you are wrong :).

[@jd2792]

except Resident Evil did have have quest markers and even a map that could tell about every iportant detial you need to know

[@AlextheK]

@@jd2792 umm... no the old Resident Evil games did not have quest markers, nor did they have minimaps... . You had a map that you could pull up from your menu, which only contained locations you already visited and was pretty useless apart from showing you color coded doors. And there certainly were no quest/objective markers or waypoints in those games - I am not sure if the concept was even used in a gaming context back in 1996 yet.

[@twentyfour4998]

I think they got his point at the end of the first video. I at least did. However I think their criticism of Mark Brown had more to do with his delivery and how his videos were structured. For example in order to get to a point or a statement of him you first have to watch 10 minutes of very unnecessary explanation. Which can be very boring and frustrating because during that time he almost never says anything of value.

[@seanmac1793]

Look I understand where you're coming from but it doesn't work in modern RPGs because they are so much bigger. I think for your attitude we can agree that this isn't a positive thing for RPGs. Let's take kotor 1 for example. Kotor is fairly small in scale so its can be carefully designed to not need objective markers. However if kotor were to be remastered they would almost certainly make the worlds bigger and in that game I would want objective markers.

[@hassathunter2464]

But Witcher 3 proves that wrong. Most devs just are too lazy, unskiled or something else to bother making a non wayled path to the location you have to end up at.

[@thibaultl1956]

Quickest EFAP upload evAH!

[@CupCakeUnleashed]

In his defense; If you're a first year game student, a lot of the stuff he discusses would go right over your head. Watching him and hearing what he says, you'll learn quite a bit. Not to say his videos are good, just that it will get you thinking about the topics and push your mind into the design space. You'd be surprised how easy it is to miss obvious things.

[@Tripleat117]

I went to see Mark's brown Mario video, and look at the comments, cause I was curious. One of the top comments is someone saying how he appreciates that someone is bringing awarness for people with disabilities. Mark only stated the idea of accessibility in passing, and apparently that's enough for "awareness." Such a hallow praise to me since it's not even the point of the video.

[@ShadowMan64572]

Um, that is enough for awareness? Lol

[@NOTABOT2KChann]

But, how did Rag''''''s operate a gun if he's a dog?????

[@steveelmy]

It's a shame Mark missed the opportunity to use the words: "and if you press this button, you will suck an egg". It's like he read the Instruction Manual for a game, and then decided to narrate his Thesis for the Open University about it. Next thing you know, Mark Brown will be do a video called "The Verb Conjugations of Killer Instinct"

[@michaelkindt3288]

This comes off to me like you’re complaining that he goes too much into detail. Personally, I really like it when reviews and video essays go into minutia, as I am someone who likes thinking about specific details. I unironically wish more reviews and essays would describe the button mapping. Breaking down sentence structures might be a bit much though.

[@MarikCharleswood]

Well done Disney, another person on your boycott list, and I don't think I'll be the last one.

[@hermannlagrange803]

Regarding "Following the little dotted line" video The idea that a game feature is bad because the reviewer or critic is having trouble with it or disapproves of it is rather baffling to me. To me, it's like complaining an ingredient doesn't taste good to you, therefore it should not be used in any recipes. It never matters what the game feature is, the only real questions you should ask are 1) Does it benefit my game? 2) Do players seem to appreciate it? 3) How well can I implement this feature? I can see why Mauler, Rags and Wolf go monkey-ass, bat-shit crazy when they listen to these guys. They are definitely talking about subjective topics, but present it as something objective. BTW, ending a video with "that's just all my opinion" to me translates as "I don't know more than you, I pretty much bullshitted my way through the video and neither of us are any wiser for it".

[@theraven268]

I always saw "It's just my opinion" as "Don't criticize me, i have shielding"

[@mrzoonix6368]

I love Rags' impersonation of Mark Brown

[@garlandmueller740]

I so want to have a drink with Rags now. Just once in my life have a drink with him and watch something that insults our intelligence then I can die happily right afterwards.

[@understandingortryingto80]

Guess mine was more of a mauler fan appreciation vid rather than a funny meme *waaahs internally*