Elden Ring Lore | The Outer Gods

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The Outer Gods of Elden Ring's Universe are one of the most discussed and debated areas in the lore and for good reason. In this video we look to the original Japanese and the Japanese Lore Community to help us full understand what these nebulous beings are meant to convey and their relationship to the concept of Kami.
Editor: Creators Studio - creatorsstudio.co.uk/
Intro: 0:00
Kami: 2:14
Sponsor: 10:28
The Empyrean Question: 11:37
The Cosmic Question: 21:52
The Ancient God of Rot: 27:11
The Outer God of Death: 34:16
The Mother of Truth: 39:31
The Fell God and the Moon: 47:38
This is an extremely expansive video that not only looks at The Outer Gods as a whole but also covers the following subjects: Mohg, Malenia, Miquella, The Greater Will, Marika, The Elden Ring, The Golden Order, The Deathbirds, the Frenzied Flame, Okina, Land of Reeds, The Blood Star, The Moon, The Fell God and More!
Massive thank you to Mirko (u/LaMi_1) and Great Cosmic Axolotl for their assistance in translations and cultural references.
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REFERENCES
Sabaku no Maiku Episode 38: • “Echi di Vet Run” - El...
Ratatoskr 'The Greater Will Doesn't Care About the Golden Order': • The Greater Will Doesn...
Post by u/NamelessSinger re Siofra River: / the_blue_dancer_fairy_...
Aesir Aesthetics Re The Horror Lost in Translation: • The Horror Lost in Tra...
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CREDITS
Commission Thumbnail art by the incredible Shimhaq: / shimhaq
Big Thanks to Last Protagonist for his fantastic videos and translations provided: / lastprotagonist
Massive thanks to u/LaMi_1 (Mirko) for the guidance and translations: / lami_1
Thumbnail layout by BrightSparkIV: / brightsparkiv
Please subscribe for more future Elden Ring Lore content!
Follow me on Twitter: / smoughtown
Images used from Fextralife Wiki: eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com...
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Soundtrack is Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Sekiro and Elden Ring
I do not own the rights to Elden Ring, all rights to FromSoftware
#eldenring #eldenringlore

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks to Factor for sponsoring this video: Use code POGSMOUGH60 for 60% off your first box at strms.net/SmoughtownFactorOctoberYT60

[@pious83]

The role of the Frenzied Flame and Three Fingers might be just that of the others. Balance. Chaos being the direct counterpoint to the order of the Greater Will. Three Fingers envelope Two, equally.

[@turnak1349]

Great to see you get sponsors!

[@SmoughTown]

@@turnak1349 Thanks Turnak!

[@opcanabss]

perhaps it all boils down to which empyrean / god has the literal Greater will to become the ruling big G God to foster the cycle of it's design

[@ArantyrDarkhand]

@@pious83 It boils down to what he choose to make, the frienzied flame. It came in response of the greater will injustice. So why not get something similar to be chaos and destroy everything. The great will its a outer god like any oter. He just parasite the tree... and got more ppl to follow to got more power, its just see the influence of the gods... the more life it influence or parasite the stronger it is... Root its the second most powerfull becouse it infect a lot, the blood mother the weakest becouse she barely have any follower and dont infect, youfollow her doctrine. The great will its the stronger becouse it infects more ppl...it infects becouse its clearly it control their mind and actions.

[@Jaden-Ring]

The outer gods being natural kami and marika's order excluding them reminds me alot of how the dark was natural in dark souls and yet gwyn defied the natural course of the world to maintain his age and his family's power.

[@handgun559]

The thing I think about though is how eastern religions also have forces of nature go to war with one another, and the Greater Will also seems to be a force of nature. He is natural order. And the forces of nature he wars against are forces that oppose him. Fire. Omens. And chaos. Im still not convinced the Greater Will didn't usurp the Elden Ring. Cuz like, grace guides us to burn the Erdtree, and it's only once we burn the Erdtree that the two fingers consider us a traitor. So my thoughts are kinda like this; the Greater Will is just another force. But it's the force of order. It makes sense that it's the most powerful, or even the chief amongst a pantheon. But the Elden Ring is an Earthly concept that holds all the constructs if earthly life. The outer God's weirdly have overlap with some of these runes, like the rune of rebirth being hella similar to the goal of the chaos flame, and the rune of death being akin to the death bird. So I feel as if the gods and the forces of the Elden Ring are not one in the same. And one of the guiding principles of life is change. And the Elden Ring drives us to change. Burn the tree. Cast off the Greater Will and bring change. It doesn't even matter what. The gods represent constant forces but the Elden Ring represents life and life changes. I've always held that the Elden Stars incantation is "lying" in it's description. More accurately, it states "It is said that the a golden star fell to earth hearing a beast." The key phrase being "it is said" as if this is but a story of a teaching. So, this is a fundamental teaching of the golden order stating that the Greater Will forged the Elden Ring, and possibly fake. A story meant to establish the Greater Wills dominance. The notion that the Greater Will has natural control over the Elden Ring is constantly presented as false. It has to maintain its control through a system of powers, and I think this is some of the story structure GRR might have lended. The two fingers want us to STOP following grace once they realize what it's telling us to do. Vyke never got so far so all the public knew was that he was to be Elden Lord. They didn't know, like the Greater Will might, that the true goal is to banish the Greater Will. Anyway. I don't have coherent enough thoughts to write more I don't think. Long story short, The Greater Will is also a force of nature, but the Elden Ring is earthly in concept, and demands change. Which is antithetical to order. I don't believe ANY God is supposed to have control over the Elden Ring.

[@rdowg]

This was kidna the entire plot of sekiro too. The dragon pushed buddha out of the area and kept him out by corrupting the world and creatures

[@humorm4152]

@@handgun559 If we talking "western" I think we can also say the Greater will want's to be that GOD that can and have control of everything from nature to events they want to happen but just like what the three finger has said they did something wrong and it get tainted. It's basically the pirated version of the original plan of God in the bible. Paradise Earth with no death with perfect creations in the planet in a perfect world.

[@moirabeast8469]

Well I'm pretty sure the greater will is super kami guru.

[@dragonlordplacidusax9413]

For fuk's sake that's not what outer gods are. Have none of you tried bloodborne?!? Then atleast the concept should be clear!!

[@agm5424]

For those in the know the god of The Frenzied Flame (FoF) is Elden Ring's version of Hastur The King in Yellow (KiY) since it's magick revolves around yellow flames that induce madness, not to mention the fact that the Three Fingers themselves kinda look like the most well known version of The Yellow Sign when they open to grab the Tarnished. There's also the possibility that each character involved in the FoF storyline are representations of characters found throughout the KiY mythos. The Frenzied Flame represents Hastur Himself. The Lord Of Chaos: The King in Yellow who is either Hastur himself or one of his avatars that he uses as vessels to manifest himself on the earth. It's never actually clear but that's cosmic horror for you. Vyke: The Tattered King who may be another incarnation of Hastur Himself. This is fitting since Vyke was close to becoming the Lord of Chaos and is wearing a tattered cape after coming in contact with the three fingers. Shabriri: May represent the Palid Mask since he always covers his face with "his" hands as if they were a mask and in the KiY mythos the Pallid Mask is sometimes the harbinger and messenger of Hastur just like Shabriri is to the FoF. Hyetta: she may represent Camilla who just like Hyetta went mad when facing a crucial truth concerning the KiY/FoF. In the case of Hyetta it was either her learning the nature of the "grapes" or when you as the lord of FoF burned her eyes. Camilla went mad when coming face to face with the Pallid Mask and learning a horrifying truth about the entity ("No mask?, No mask!!?). And then there's Vyke maiden who may represent Cassilda.

[@Zhtrik]

That’s a cool perspective, but who is Cthulhu in this scenario. I know your theory is primarily based on the original King in Yellow Book. But in the Cthulhu Mythos, It is implied in Lovecraft that Hastur and Cthulhu have a blood relation and hold nothing but contempt for one another. Unless the Golden Order is analogous to Cthulhu in this context.

[@sleepy9013]

@@Zhtrik the king in yellow is unrelated to cthulhu isn't it?

[@2265Hello]

It’s probably why the FoF is one of my favorite pieces of lore in the game

[@dawggydawgtown]

nah man

[@ajoj007]

Very interesting theory. I like it. In regards to Hyetta, the first story involving King in Yellow was titled “Haïta the Shepherd”. I wonder if this could be inspiration for her name?

[@shagarumedic]

The outer gods have always been my favorite parts of the lore. Their effect on the world is fascinating to learn about, especially what happens the beings that come in contact with them: Mohg embraces it, Fire giant uses it out of necessity, and Malenia resists it through sheer fucking will

[@ladonmccabe]

Something interesting to note about Mohg, is that his his accused blood erupted into fire when he came in contact with Lady Oden. Perhaps that is what helped push Morgott in the direction towards the greater will, since as we see with his sword, he sealed that accursed blood away, and when used, it channels the bloodflame. Perhaps the Formless Mother came to them both in the sewers, with one feeling love, and one feeling disgust, but both left the sewers after that moment with purpose. Even more speculative headcannon, perhaps the Formless Mother helped the Omen Twins shed their shackles as well?

[@UnholyWrath3277]

We actually dont know about the fire giant and how their relationship works. Mind you they bear the fell god literally inside their chests so its either symbiotic or parasitic both would have strongly different implications. Did the giants take him in willingly or was he always a part of them from the beginning? We only see the final giant summon him in a time of need but could he have summoned him without being pushed to the point of death? Unfortunately its up to interpretation

[@travisoliver6741]

@@UnholyWrath3277 The assumption is that the Fire Giants were indeed bound to the Fell God, and this is described as a curse in a lore description (Burn, o Flame!). If the Fire Giants just got sick powers from the Giantsflame without any drawback, then it probably isn't a curse. They likely have to use sacrifice (Likely self-sacrifice like how the Fire Giant tore off it's leg) to activate this power.

[@UnholyWrath3277]

@@travisoliver6741 the narrator is not always reliable and in this case often aligned with the views of the established order. Calling it a curse from the perspective of the people who fought a war against them is expected if a little to easy to believe. Even if this is the case it may have still been taken positively and willingly by the giants to fight marika. All im saying is not nearly enough information garuntees any explanation without some significant inferences

[@Xer405]

Malenia can only hold it at bay due to the golden needle her brother made. And she took it out to fight Radahn.

[@edatthegovernance]

It's brilliant how you revise and restate and evolve your theories.

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Edward, I think it's important to always consider new ideas and admit when maybe a theory wasn't quite right!

[@NihilisticRealism]

@@SmoughTown When you do the same for your beliefs, it's called 'intellectual honesty'

[@rushpatriot2866]

​@@NihilisticRealismintellectual honesty is very rare nowadays for the "intellectuals"

[@dragomirofmancuso2638]

I'm so happy that the ideas of Mirko and Sabaku can be heard by the community, there are so much details that hides fondamental truths

[@melchior7346]

I genuinely like the term ‘fondamental’

[@igotcrabsyeup]

@@melchior7346 fondamental my individual balls

[@NateSmetananana]

Being wrong is never an issue when we are dealing with such arcane topics. Ive spent hours talking to my roommates bouncing ideas around, and we grow from eachother. Your ability to be humble, and prioritize the community as a whole over your own pride is exactly why I watch these videos. Truly, thank you as always for your incredible thorough, and insightful research. The world would be a significantly better place if more people put the same amount of love, attention and humility into what they are passionate about as you put towards this community.

[@SmoughTown]

Really appreciate those kind words - I was always taught it is always more important to be open to other's ideas and research, even if it challenges your own assumptions and ultimately listening to others (comments and other creators) has allowed me to grow. I am really grateful to the community and their hard work and engagement

[@youtubecensorship842]

I wouldn't say never, being wrong has a very real possibility of snowballing the idea into the spotlight, knocking other ideas to the side and preventing newer, possibly more accurate ideas, from being accepted. Unilateral open mindedness doesn't exist, people will latch onto what they like best.

[@kyrianasher5747]

Here in West Africa, our understanding of nature and its governance is pretty similar to the concept of Kami, if not exactly the same. So this was always my understanding of the Outer Gods. And it's good to see that THAT line of thought has a smoke trail. Love your videos.

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Kyrian, really glad you like the videos and that you agree with this take.

[@RelativelyBest]

Scandinavian folklore (and the folklore of other European countries) actually bear pretty clear traces of this if you look closely. We have trolls and fairies and various magical creatures all associated with nature or everyday concepts, and some were definitely once regarded as nature spirits or minor deities. Even after losing that status due to Christianity spreading across the whole continent, our _oknytt_ still seem to share an uncanny similarity to the Japanese concept of youkai: Supernatural beings who are sometimes dangerous, sometimes helpful and usually mischievous. I suspect that most old religions tended towards animism a lot more than we currently assume. After all, personification of natural phenomena is sort of the whole basis for polytheism. Perhaps Shinto is the last remaining example of what they might have resembled had they survived? It's fun to think about.

[@iiii4024]

Well yes pagan gods in Europe are the exact same too This isn’t just a Japanese thing.., before abrahamic religion was poppin everyone globally believed certain deities/spirits were responsible for certain elements in our world

[@bacicinvatteneaca]

@@iiii4024 yep, Romans didn't just have the anthropomorphic gods, they also had the Genii

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

Is god based or the spirits? Place your bets here!

[@Zhtrik]

The Best Part of these Fan Discussions is all the angles and perspectives you get to see and hear about. Been part of the Souls Community since Bloodborne, and it’s always cool to theorycraft.

[@zakaryrichmond396]

I really thought that there would be a point where discoveries dried out and we would only hear about new things every couple months I did not expect this level of intermingling to happen instead

[@PatrickCervantez]

@@zakaryrichmond396 That's the magic of these games. They weave so much myth, lore, and philosophy from the real world into the story of the games that it feels almost like an archeological expedition when you play it. I only started playing when Dark Souls Remastered came out on the Switch, but I fell in love with the series when I started watching these type of video game analyses videos that go deep into the story and lore implications. These games feel like you're actually learning about places that actually existed.

[@kittyvalbuena182]

This video feels very important for the Western lore community. I had been been thinking about characters like Malenia and Mohg as being servants, willing or otherwise. But you’re right, that’s a very Western perspective on all these relationships. You mentioned in the section on Kami that, theoretically, anyone could benefit from praying to a Kami, which is what I think Mohg is doing. He and Miquella *could* bring about a new Age of Blood, but blood, and therefore the Formless Mother, will continue to exist even if both of them are dead. Malenia’s relationship with the Scarlet Rot is a different example of the same idea. If the God of Rot *is* disease, then anyone can be infected by it. The Scarlet Rot is like the Disease to Rule All Diseases. Malenia just happens to be incredibly powerful, and so becomes a potential champion of disease. The fact that Malenia rejects it is simply her choice as a mortal. And while the disease can’t be cured, it doesn’t need Malenia to be significant

[@SmoughTown]

Absolutely Kitty, when I was introduced to this idea by others...it just clicked. It answers every question and ticks every box, especially that point about Gowry, Malenia and her selection as an empyrean.

[@Broomer52]

Weirdly enough this sort of extends to the Greater Will too. The Greater Will is Order, naturally Order would stand above other forces but Order doesn’t care about motives, end results or consequences, Order is Order and any Order will do. To take it back to the Big G that the Greater Will is clearly inspired by theirs the famous quote “I am what I am” and this biblical quote fits neatly into the nature of all these Gods. They’re not humans, they’re not people, they are what they are. Blood, Death, Rot, Order, Life, Misery, they’re living embodiments of what they are.

[@handgun559]

*ugh, had to make an edit because I was doing a brain fart and mixed up daoism and shintoism. I think the community's tend to crack the games once they start translating each other, because the concept of God's being servants to other gods is HELLA eastern. The entire Jade Palace is a structure the symbolizes that structure with the Jade Emperor at the top, just bellow the Buddha himself. And even in eastern religions God's war and fight with each other constantly. Amatarasu and Susano are the sun and storms. The light that brings life and the clouds that cover our warmth. It makes sense that these forces are portrayed as warring. But it's great to be reminded of the more complex details of these cultures because we might even begin to observe "servant" differently. Like, mayhaps all the outer God's ARE subservient to the Greater Will. All (most, you always have trouble makers like a certain monkey) God's in Shintoism (*DAOISM* NOT Shinto! I'm a silly) are subservient to the Jade Emperor but it's not a hostile relationship. The Jade Emperor in turn is supposed to serve everyone. Could this be more akin to how we observe the Greater Will and the Outer God's? I still think no, because it's completely losing GRRs writing style, which really can't just be dropped, and I think it also forgets the larger details of the story we interact with. Case in point: if the Greater Will is the chief amongst all, why does his Elden Ring tell us to burn his tree and kill his auger? And why does it fight us? This heavily suggest the GW doesn't own or control the Elden Ring. And God's choose champions in this universe. We can't just ignore that crucial element of the story because "God's are a force of nature." No, they are CLEARLY still at each other's throats. There is more to be found here, and I think translating each other's ideas is just the tip of the iceberg. Fucking broke Lost Izalith wide open. God only knows what we'll think of.

[@kittyvalbuena182]

@@handgun559 I agree. Well said

[@handgun559]

@@kittyvalbuena182 the biggest thing I want to add to this is that observing these gods as forces of nature does actually explain their wars far better. Like Greek Gods, the forces that oppose each other in our natural world are depicted as conflicting in the supernatural. So the embodied order dehumanizing and slaughtering the followers of fire and chaos begins to make sense. It's not that the GW has something against these gods, and they don't even have to be making attempts to over throw the GW. These forces just ARE in conflict. It's also why I think it makes sense that the GW, the force of order, is in control. Who else?

[@LaMi_fa_cose]

I'm Mirko! It's been a great pleasure for me to help you with the video ^^ More than everything, I'm so glad seeing the original JPN script getting the right amount of importance it deserves. Unfortunately, Souls games got very weak and shaky adaptations, therefore many descriptions get very poorly translated and many crucial details get lost or just utterly changed. We Westerners just get half of these scripts. And so, I'm very happy to see more and more members of the community getting interested in analysing the original texts, which have SO MUCH to offer! Nice video as always! You got a new fan, a new subscriber and someone to share a nice chat with ;) Whenever you want!

[@SmoughTown]

Hey Mirko, thank you so much for your incredible insights - we all owe you a big thank you. I will 100% be chatting with you regarding the next subjects I tackle, your help has been invaluable and I couldn't have done it without you. Thank you so much for the sub!

[@pinip_f_werty1382]

You're a hero, man. Thank you all. With all our eyes together, the path is clear!

[@Duv1995]

Heyyy! Non è che per caso hai un blog o una pagina dove posti tutte le tue scoperte? Mi piacerebbe troppo leggerne di più, sia su Elden Ring che sugli altri giochi di fromsoft!

[@handtomouth4690]

I mean, appreciate the work, doesn't really mean you have to shit on the adaptation too.

[@XSilver_WaterX]

Both sad and relieved most JPN ancient history was never recovered or booked down as a lot of ancient JPN had so much hypocritical sayings that the land itself was no longer bound to the earthly domain. It most likely nature itself was attacked by a more powerful force that Izanagi and Izanami were too weak to kill it. Hypocrisy is NOT a natural force, and all earth-bound creatures can feel it!

[@marvelouspatches8577]

Honestly I think that the Outer Gods are a bit of both concepts. The Kami tpye and the Lovecraft type. The gods simply are what they are. They are they idea of a subject and the embodiment of it as well. But also a thinking force but are that of instinct rather than planning. They have desires and objectives but not in a typical sense. A good comparison is the WarHammer chaos gods. In there base function they are manifestations of ideas. Not inherently bad or good, just how we observe them. In Elden Ring we have the possibility to see them as outer gods that are malicious because of our view in the world that is presented to us by the golden order. But in reality they just exist in our world as natural forces in the universe and have power beyond normal comprehension. And we come to our conclusions because the golden order is so influential.

[@Phantasmeels]

I agree very much that the Outer Gods of Elden Ring are a bit of both. They seem like a more eldritch, somewhat lovecraftian take on the kami, in that they are fundamental and elemental parts of reality made manifest through worship, cults, arcane ritual and the like and spread through the world as their influence grows. They are cosmic in origin as they exist because of the Greater Will, itself a being of cosmic scope. So it does at the least seem like they are based on the concept of kami at heart, but with an Eldritch flavor. The Greater Will almost seems similar to something like Yog-Sothoth of the Cthulhu Mythos in its scope and power, whereas the Flame of Frenzy's maddening and destructive effects when manifested remind me both of Hastur and Azathoth. It's clearly not meant to be one to one in comparison, but I feel like the cosmic horror influence is present in the Elden Ring Outer Gods, as just that, an influence.

[@user-yp6yr9te7l]

@@Phantasmeels I think people misunderstand what kami is. Kami is just the Japanese word for god(s). The Kami are not unlike any other polytheistic gods of any other culture. The Greek Gods were all representatives of elemental and natural ideas. The Fates (Moirai)? The Hours (The Horae)? Night (Nyx)? Darkness (Erebos)? Wisdom (Athena)? Madness (Dionysos/Pan)? Eos (dawn)? The Kami aren't strictly elementals (only the elemental Kami are), they are a pantheon like the Indo-European one and actually has many counterparts. I really do not see the Outer Gods in Elden Ring as based on Shintoism specifically. Shinotism isn't all animism. They feel more like Chthulhu Mythos entities. I actually feel the cosmic horror is the chief idea in the Outer Gods in Elden Ring, and any Shinto cultural idea second.

[@rockzen8050]

This should be the most liked comment , Its odd to me that folks will sit around and go noooo these are Kamis as its a JAPAN GAME...that is highly influenced and uses a western Castles and medieval aesthetic , which is a blend of east and west themes so would make sense they are a bit of both I mean its been Found a file in the game in which Astel comes crashing down from the sky ....so its like folks still wanna pretend its only kamis lol

[@Darkheart00]

@@rockzen8050 I’ve never really considered taking the Japanese transcript/lore of these games too seriously. I feel like that the more you fall into it, the more disconnected your theories and interpretations become. George RR Martin and Miyazaki are freaking fantasy juggernauts. They observe history, myths, stories, to appropriate them to their own stories into making something unique. Especially Miyazaki. He’s waaay too experienced and too much of a genius to limit his fantasy opus to the confines of a specific cultural sector of the world (Japan). No, for a culturally diverse project like Elden Ring, he’ll search into more variety of cultures and history, while also putting his own unique Japanese-cultural touch on it. And that his cultural touch is what makes these fantasy stories so unique compared to others. He doesn’t lean on his culture, but instead he utilises it to advance the stories in ways that are truly unique. I will agree, however, naturally, that the outer gods of Elden Ring have more an organic element to them than the typical Lovecraft stories. They feel more innate, more arcane, which may lend more credence to the ‘Kami’ concept.….Japan is freaking awesome lol Long story, short; yes, I believe that the outer gods aren’t just kami, but a combination of many things from differing beliefs - which include Lovecrafts Old Ones.

[@marvelouspatches8577]

As someone who has been very interested into theology it is amazing to see to collaboration of real life mythology into Elden Ring and how western and eastern ideas mix. Along with how amazing it is that the community can put these things together into such a comprehensive lore explanation. I really love how you pull from every available source and are happy to admit when you made a mistake on something or when you change your option. Its really is amazing to see all these ideas together in one long format.

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Patches. I really like that I was wrong because this idea just feels so much better and fits so well and it answers so many questions I had! I am super grateful to those who helped me in these fundamentals.

[@IndieGinge]

Shamelessly shilling Quelaag's channel if you're into that stuff. She does a lot of good work with connecting the ideas and themes within the text of the game and their connection to their real world analogues and probable inspirations for very strong thematic readings of the elements of the world that she's examining, recebtly did some vids on Malenia and her connecrion to western/eastern alchemy and shit talking Jung lol. And also she's got great conspiracy board connected by string energy. Very chaotic, highly recommend.

[@DinggisKhaaniMagtaal]

Just curious, as someone coming from anthropology, but how do you feel about the general use of the word “mythology”? To me ethically, and to believers of what are considered “mythologies” the word is a bit of an implicative put-down. However, it is certainly a word so generally used that it feels like convenience kind of overrides considering it’s own connotations. Not saying this to finger-point, btw!

[@marvelouspatches8577]

@@DinggisKhaaniMagtaal Honesty it doesn't bother me to say either of them. But in saying that I would typically only use the word mythology when it comes to Greek, Roman, Egyptian mythology ect, in terms of the ancient gods that are not really practiced anymore. But if someone tells me that they believe in those gods as their gods. I have no problem re stating my words to theology instead of mythology. Just down to whatever a persons preference for me.

[@DinggisKhaaniMagtaal]

@@marvelouspatches8577 Fair! I’ve just seen it applied in weird places like with Hinduism, which has a huge following still.

[@jackjohnson6044]

A note on the red thorn roundshield of the samurai: It has even deeper connections with the Bloodstar or even formless mother. The Item description reads: "Though it isn't much, it boosts fire damage negation". The thorn sorcerers catalyst is a burning branch of thorns, futher inforcing a fire theme. All of the formless mothers incantations like bloodflameblade, blood talons, bloodboon and associated weapons like Moghs ritualspear, Rivers of Blood, and Elenoras poleblade deal fire dmg. So it would make sense, that a shield associated to a god heavily utilizing fire boosts fire dmg negation. This is also a rather unsual trait, since a wood shield should be fairly susceptible to fire. Which pronounces supernatural meddling even more. Also the great stars mentions the bloodstar. It reads: "A blood-stained star is an ill omen, a fact not lost upon those against whom this weapon is brought to bear. Landing attacks slightly restores HP." Apparently the blood-star is known sign. I wonder if the Bloodstar and Formless Mother are the same being. Or a sort of evolution or reiteration of the same concept.

[@jacksonicsaudio6562]

The idea of the outer gods being kami definitely makes a lot of sense to me! (Though i wasnt formally aware of the concept) Ive often thought of them as a governing force in the world. The fell god, in my view, is another good example, due to fire's connatations of cleansing.

[@SmoughTown]

Agreed, I wasn't aware but as soon as I heard it - it just clicked into place

[@jacksonicsaudio6562]

@@SmoughTown For me too! Thanks for collating this info, it amazes me the lengths this community goes to help others!

[@mightystu49]

The thing is though is that Miyazaki is a huge fan of a lot of western literature and concepts, and is a proven fan of the Lovecraftian Mythos. The English translation is not something he has no hand in, so calling them outer gods isn’t some choice he had no say in (also lore was written by George R.R. Martin, which only further makes Elden Ring the most western influenced Fromsoft game). I think your folly was only in claiming that all Outer Gods are malevolent: this isn’t the case in the Mythos either with beings like Nodens even being pro-humanity and many being neutral. Likewise Kami can be good or ill-intentioned, so this isn’t really a case for or against them as one thing. I don’t know why you’d have an issue with Malenia being an Empyrian. The two fingers are shown consistently as desperate and out of touch both with each other and the greater will, so picking anyone to succeed Marika was what they needed and no one else but the Empyreans were powerful enough. In fact it’s likely they picked her because she was able to resist the forces of rot, a demonstration of her power. Remember, the god of rot already exists but is sealed away beneath the lake of rot. Malenia is just the vessel for it to escape and give it form but it already exists. It’s kinda silly to also suggest that the blue dancer is an exclusively eastern concept as it is a clear representation of the spirits of old Gaelic lands where specific mountains, rivers, etc. had patron faeries. This is similar to kami, which kind of proves this isn’t something unique to Japan. Hell, this is core to the plot of Nioh as the main character has his guardian spirit stolen and he is Irish. It is treated like the Japanese guardian spirits. Ultimately though the thing to remember is that Miyazaki is big fan of western fantasy and concepts. Much like a game like Ghost of Tsushima is made by westerners it is still primarily a game influenced by Japan and it’s culture and mythology. It comes through a western lens but it would be silly to say the main focus of that game was western beliefs just because it wasn’t made by Japanese people. Also be careful to let one person color your whole perception of a different lore community.

[@daniell1483]

This interpretation of the Outer Gods reminds me a lot of the "logic of the world" espoused by the Primordial Serpents in Dark Souls. They had a notion of how the world "should be", from the time of dragons, to the time of the lords, and finally the age of darkness, aka humanity. I get the impression that the Elden Ring is a sort of "logic of the world" manifested into a physical object. The "code" on which the Lands Between are programmed to run, so to speak. By changing the Death Rune, these other concepts (rot, blood, etc.) are given a chance to reshape the "logic of the world" to better serve these other Runes. So, as we play the game, we are seeing these concepts picking their individual champions and we, the player, are eventually the one to choose how the "logic of the world" is ultimately rewritten based on how we reprogram the Elden Ring. At least, that is my understanding of the situation.

[@TheConspiratorist]

About your thoughts on the Elden Ring itself, yes, that’s essentially it. The game further supports this by literally calling Elden script “code”, and how all endings require doing something to the Elden Ring. However, “manifested” is the wrong term. The Elden Ring was created by the Greater Will as a failsafe and a crowning jewel. To “finalize” its claim on the Lands Between, the Greater Will crafted the ring and bound the land’s fate to it, effectively mitigating any intrusions on the lands by other roaming outer gods. The ring was very much created, and it was meant to intrude upon the natural order of things, irrevocably changing it forever. Note: I’m talking from the perspective that the outer gods are essentially alien beings. I don’t believe “rot, death, blood” and so on are “natural” concepts to the lands between, at least not to a point that they manifested themselves sentience. Rather, I think the outer gods came from the stars and attempted to manipulate the world in whatever fashion their power manifests. This is also supported by ingame lore in that several outer gods, including the Greater Will, are said to have “arrived” and wrestled for control of the realm. This concept of distant “absence” is further emphasized by the Greater Will’s seeming forsaking of the Land’s Between. It’s also worth noting that their have been previous “prime deities” of the Lands Between: one being the Moon deity, and the other being whatever deity first planted the Erdtree under its former name.

[@handtomouth4690]

@@TheConspiratorist TLDR you believe the exact thing this video argued against. Guess the video wasn't very convincing for you.

[@jeftecoutinho]

I see the Outer Gods as more akin to the Daedra, from The Elder Scrolls, as they are both personal beings AND concepts. As such, they will act in order to spread their influence as much as they can and nothing can change that. Rivalry might not be the best word, but they surely are personal beings that oppose each other.

[@susaac9755]

This is probably the best elden ring lore video I'd ever watched, and I am not saying that lightly. Everything makes sense now! The Greater Will is basically the shaper of life and sacred Order with the Ring being the world's "mainframe"/"set of rules" that affects realty itself. The Outer Gods are therefore just aspects of the world that no longer fit with Marika's order, as she meddled with the ring, in her fear of losing her rule. Even Ranni's ending fits now. She doesn't push away the Greater Will's influence in lieu of that of her Moon, instead, if we view her dark Moon as a kami, she uses it's powers which are tied to the occult, the obscure and manipulation (all of which are quite mirroring of Ranni's personality, which makes me wonder if other demigods also have "moons" that are reflecting of who they are) to take the "mortal" gods away from the world and rule from the shadows. The elden ring will still exist, only that is is embodied through Ranni this time. I find it sadder then, that Miquela's purpose of creating a world that would not be influenced by Outer Gods or the Greater Will is basically an impossibility. He might have been able to use his abilities to nullify the influence of the Outer Gods, but he will never had been able to Rid the world of the Greater Will (just an opinion, the evidence from the game suggests that the unalloyed gold might be able to take away the influence of the Greater Will as well). And, if we think about it, is the Greater Will truly something evil? It created order from the chaos of primordial concepts (not just life). While it is true that by doing so it created negative aspects as well (which is explained by Hyetta quite well), it only truly wanted order. It's Marika's golden order that brought about all the suffering and pain and the "wrongness" in the world as we see it in the game, because she meddled with the rune of death, and all of that because she was too afraid of her rule ending. IMO this gives Goldmask's ending a lot of relevance. By shielding the ring, you are able to stop the interference of "mortal" gods and demigods from doing what Marika did. However, in the words of Maliketh, the damage is already done. Without returning the rune of death to the ring (which, in turn, should put an end to Godwyn's deathblight as he can be killed), as well as creating an order that is far more accepting (towards omens, albinaurics etc., just like Miquella tried to do), the world might very well be lost. IMO the best possible outcome would have been the recreation of the original ring, the one we see in the depictions in Farum Azula, and THEN using Goldmask's protective rune. This way Marika is the only one that gets what she deserves (and I truly believe that her constant meddling with the Elden Ring deserves punishment, as her actions not only led to the suffering or oblivion of a few individuals such as Godwyn, the Fire Giant, and many of her children, but to the corruption of the world order itself), and she might even be replaced at a later date. This is just my opinion though. Anyway, we will see how the lore evolves in the DLC. I'm supper excited, both for the new items, story etc as well as the lore.

[@SmoughTown]

That's incredible to hear! Thank you so much I am blown away. When I was introduced to this concept it also answered a lot of questions for me, it just seems to slot in so well.

[@susaac9755]

@@23Raind that would be what i wish for as well. A master mending rune, that includes the omens into the natural order, gives peace to those that luve in death and reinserts death, protects the ring from being tampered with.

[@AMbradfordfilms]

I think that's probably correct, besides the formless mother who I dont think would have an associated astral body as she Is formless. The meteor that blasts open Nokron is referred to as a star, so any object in the sky is like a star to an average denizen of TLB. The astrologers would have known more from their studies of 5he sky and thus had a better understanding of the differences of heavenly bodies.

[@Lakhany07]

Just want to say that I love how community friendly SmoughTown is. Always crediting other creators and linking their work. The content is great but I also watch because he’s so humble and shares the credit.

[@SmoughTown]

There are just so many insanely talented creators out there and I am grateful to learn from them. Thanks for the kind words dude.

[@Lakhany07]

@@SmoughTown of course. Keep up the great work!

[@sanityplusmilkshakes]

The collaboration and iteration of the Souls community is its greatest asset. Getting to talk about the games with other players face to face is always a treat for me.

[@ASimpleInternetUser]

I've been waiting on this one for a while and I was not disappointed. As a western player, the idea of something more beyond the Lands Between harboring some cosmic war between the Outer Gods sounded so enticing to me. But I simply can't deny how much better the kami theory fits within Elden Ring's world. Great job, as always, Smough! I'll certainly be back to learn about the Frenzied Flame.👍

[@SmoughTown]

Cheers Dean, really appreciate that support

[@terminalarray1047]

Agreed. 2 more points about how the Outer Gods don't necessarily go against the Greater Will (don't know if you mentioned it): 1. Despite Mohg communing with an Outer God, he still acquired a Great Rune, a piece of the Elden Ring. Why would he want that if working for an Outer God was against the Greater Will. 2. White Mask Varre mentions that he believes the Two Fingers were corrupted due to the shattering. They're essentially broken and their words are now meaningless. But this means that Varre believed that they did speak the truth in the past. This means that to Varre and the followers of Mohg, following the Formless Mother and adhering to the laws made by the Greater Will are not mutually exclusive.

[@SmoughTown]

I didn't mention these but great points thank you!

[@terminalarray1047]

@@SmoughTown Np. Great video btw!

[@AwDudeIDontKnow]

I love the nod to Nurgle, and his main disease is called Nurgle's Rot, which lines up so perfectly. I wonder if they took inspiration from Warhammer

[@alexk5422]

This makes me think that the Elden Ring we see in Farum Azula may be a form of the Elden Ring which incorporated the outer gods into its essence, hence why it’s larger and more complicated than the Elden Ring of the Golden Order. Perhaps the Elden Ring that Placidusax lorded over was one in which each Outer God played their part on tandem. When the Golden Order took control and elevated the Crucible to become the Erdtree, a singular vestibule of order, it banished the remaining Outer Gods to relative obscurity. The implication to me seems that the Greater Will is either framework of a pantheon of Gods, or it is a progenitor God to a lesser pantheon. That pantheon being The Crucible, The Formless Mother, The God of Rot, The Deathbird’s God and perhaps even The Dark Moon.

[@alexandermanjarres2056]

ABSOLUTLY Love these in-depth lore videos. It's your voice and the way ideas are structured and transitions. I watch them repeatedly and even put them on as background noise for work or sleeping. Looking forward to your future work!

[@SmoughTown]

That's awesome to hear Alexander! Because I always doubt myself before I upload. Hope you enjoy.

[@thyfoul6844]

So happy that Sabaku is getting some credits even outside Italy! Btw keep up the good work, i’m not even alfway and i already liked the video!

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you so much! And Sabaku is brilliant!

[@jordievans7628]

I know this video's a few months old, but when I heard the point about how the Greater Will doesn't particularly care about the form order takes in the Lands Between I had a couple of thoughts on the game's narrative, which tbf is just coming from my perspective and I'm not a lore aficionado. When you reach the Erdtree, thorns unexpectedly block your way. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a result of the Greater Will denying you entry to the Erdtree, an act that even surprises the Two Fingers. As we know, the only way at this point to enter the Erdtree is to set it aflame. The Greater Will must have known this is possible, so what if the Greater Will wanted you to burn the Erdtree? It didn't just want you to just become Elden Lord of a broken order, but rather burn the current order to the ground and rebuild as you see fit. Even if the ideals you held were the same as the current order, the structures through which those ideals would be enforced would be rebuilt anew. This would explain why the Two Fingers are seemingly forsaken/led on by the Greater Will as they would've been envoys of the order it was disposing of. The Elden Beast gets dispatched too. And considering the chaos that the Shattering brought about thanks to the actions of the current order I wouldn't be surprised if that was the game plan of the Greater Will all along. Still, it's entirely possible I'm wrong. For one it might've been the Elden Beast that put up the thorns independently of the Greater Will, and the fact than in the endings when you mend the Elden Ring Marika's fate is actually left quite ambiguous (does she die properly, is she still comatose, is she fine now the ring is repaired?) put a spanner in the works of this theory. But it was fun to think about nonetheless.

[@ForgedinPrint]

"I was wrong". Those three words tells me you are one of the best theory channels out there. You admit when you mess up, which will happen. Just correct yourself and move on, learning from that mistake.

[@SmoughTown]

Absolutely and tbh it is the comments of the community that help me pick up issues with my theories etc. Thanks for the support

[@ForgedinPrint]

@@SmoughTown and thanks for the good content and listening to your community.

[@razorbladder]

This perspective also paints quite a sad picture for the deathbirds in their current state. It didn't occur to me that maybe before the golden order, they came to better reflect the majesty depicted of their twin bird mother.

[@ExpandDong420]

The thing I love about your videos is how transparent you are, you admit when you're wrong and defer to those with more knowledge on the way to your conclusion. It's really refreshing

[@SmoughTown]

I appreciate that - it was just the way I was taught to approach essays and research and we are all enriched by looking outside our own preconceptions. And tbh because I only speak English, it really is critical for me to defer to experts on language and culture. Thanks so much for the support.

[@DiabloTommaso]

Man props to you to find our beloved Sabaku. You do soooo much study for your work it s just insane

[@AndrewThePoet]

This is basically a revolutionary video for us English Community. I really hope you continue upon it! Thank you so much!

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Cinna, I am super blessed GCA and Mirko were able to enlighten me on these points!

[@AndrewThePoet]

@@SmoughTown All of them should be thanked as well! But you need to be thanked more since you also enlighted us with the grace of gold. Bathing us with your lore videos of which Im thankful for you! I hope you truly have a fantastic day!

[@ThommyofThenn]

Correct. I often feel like I'm missing out on a ton of the actual intended meaning simply due to not knowing Japanese. Thanks to everyone here and on reddit who helped to inform this video

[@SmoughTown]

@@AndrewThePoet You are too kind Cinna, thank you. Have a lovely weekend

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@AndrewThePoet hOneYeD raYs of gOLd

[@kirbytaylor8629]

Fantastic video! This really helped make the all the little inconsistencies in my understanding more coherent. It's embarrassing how easy it is to forget that these games are made in a totally different cultural context than what I'm used to, despite much of the imagery being used. I appreciate your willingness to constantly adapt your theories when new evidence comes to light. It creates an interconnection between your videos that makes them more insightful. As always, all your work is much appreciated

[@SmoughTown]

Same here Kirby, so much didn't feel quite right until this theory was presented to me. I really appreciate your support.

[@codyrisling3253]

Great video! As always.. taking lore/item descriptions and what we are told and then comparing them to the Japanese games and lord for the items is such a cool perspective to see. Not only because “lost in translation” is a real thing and some tidbits get cut for English games but you can also see how cultural influence makes a difference. How some see the items and what’s it’s telling us differently.. it’s great! Appreciate the work that goes into your videos :)

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you Cody! Really appreciate the support - I really enjoyed this video because it taught me so much researching it

[@eugenialysa]

Man, this video has so many awesome insights - thanks a lot for diving this deep and giving us all this information about the Outer Gods! Amazing, amazing work!💫

[@SmoughTown]

My privilege Eugenia. thanks for the support!

[@cammyshill3099]

Both this and the Greater Will videos have been the best overall explanations for how gods and deities actually work in Elden Ring.

[@billfox847]

You do a great job of consolidating info from other players and putting your own interpretations on them. And you credit them! This to me is exactly what miyazaki had in mind when designing these games to form a community

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Bill, we are stronger as a community!

[@Aureilius2112]

I think it’s great to look at the Japanese influence however much of this world building lore was written by George RR Martin. This is why I think the Western interpretation has an edge. Also this game is clearly based more on Western (specifically Celtic) mythology.

[@Noct_Snow]

Agreed, couldn’t help but be skeptical during the entire video because of this fact.

[@WillowGreenheart]

And that western interpretations are based around RR Martin bringing a lot of norse mythos into Elden Ring. Ideas of gods as forces of nature are natural for western people not just lovecraftian. I never seen interpretations that outer gods are ALL cosmic and are corrupting Lande Between. Cheers.

[@Aureilius2112]

@@WillowGreenheart No. it’s more inspired by Celtic mythology than Norse. Look at all of the other KZbinrs and what they explain if you want to see the cosmic interpretation.

[@m.h.lockesteppe9834]

It might be "based" on an aspect of Western mythology, but it's still filtered through an Eastern lens. Martin wrote a portion of the world's history -- he did not develop the lore.

[@Aureilius2112]

@@m.h.lockesteppe9834 he literally wrote the history and world building. Which is pretty much everything in this video.

[@darkmystic7764]

This kami thing helped my thoughts too. I really like it and I am -super- excited to learn about your new thoughts on the frenzied flame.

[@aroudingo]

Almost at 100K !!!! I'm so glad to see your channel getting such a nice milestone soon! Keep up the incredible content

[@SmoughTown]

🎉 Thank you so much

[@elijahcafazzo-joyette8226]

Gotta wonder, if something as seemingly important as the Outer Gods is more akin to Shinto Kami than Lovecraftian Outer Gods. . . What did George R. R. Martin write? The lore of ASOIAF has some Lovecraftian elements in it, and while I don’t think its impossible he would have knowledge of Shinto Kami or incorporated such knowledge in writing for a Japanese narrative, it seems more likely that it would have been a Fromsoftware contribution. So this really does beg the question if, according to Miyazaki, they were surprised with how little of Martin’s concepts they had to change. . . did Martin just write “There’s a really big tree! - GRRM” And call it a day? I need answers. Love seeing theories from the Japanese part of lore community discussed. I feel like this is happening more and more as Fromsoftware titles reach bigger audiences. It makes it a lot more interesting to discuss, even though it sometimes feels bad when your theory can be undone by a translation error or choice.

[@costlycoffee4234]

Ay you already know we are here 15 mins after upload. SmoughTown truly dominating the elden ring lore scene, all love to other members of the community too! Huge huge huge appreciation for this acknowledgement of the Japanese interpretations of this lore, and especially the effort to get the present zeitgeist of the Japanese lore community.

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks for joining me so early! Really means alot

[@CyberMonty2077]

Your videos are actually so relaxing to listen to and watch. Your voice is very calming. Also great video too. Iove the lore of this game so much and your videos are a real treat to watch.

[@dakotaobrien7692]

Always such top notch quality videos and they keep coming. keep up the fantastic work man

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks so much Dakota, will do!

[@demianleon6751]

Amazing video! I love to see how we're learning more and more and the story is starting to make more sense now!

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you! couldn't agree more

[@landenx]

Thanks for the upload! I was craving some Elden Ring content, and this definitely hit the spot. Thoughtful narration, great editing, and overall a great video 👍🏼

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks dude, really glad you enjoyed

[@Sierra056]

One idea I had watching this video, related to the Scarlet Rot, was if maybe its most gruesome effect are not its own fault, but rather due to Destined Death's confinement. Usually, when something decays, it dies first before producing new life, making it a somewhat virtuous cycle. But the Golden Order, as I understand it, prevents death in many ways. So what if the Scarlet Rot resulting in aberration is actually due to the fact that things decay endlessly, turning into monstruosity in the process, and spreading the Rot way more violently than it normally should?

[@trnrred489]

Till this day The Bastard’s curse is still the best lord video for souls borne games, and thoroughly explains the Shinto/kami inspirations of darksouls 3. Even as a western player of ER the kami and Shinto based interpretation of Elden ring are blatant just having watched the bastards curse. Long time souls fans that have seen the bastards curse know what I mean, and smoufgtown I know for a fact you’ve seen that video, and it directly inspired you here

[@NY-nx9es]

Hyetta says that "Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake." What if each of these concepts is represented by an outer god ? torment could be the formless mother. Affliction ciuld represent the god of rot, And despair would represent the god of frenzy itself This would mean that all the gods simply want to return to what they were fractured from(the one great, perhaps a completely unfractured and whole god, a full and complete greater will). Giving a very large light on their motivations(just my opinion, would love to hear well-founded counter arguments)

[@yoitsjonmac188]

You always make my weekends better, been looking forward to this one!

[@SmoughTown]

That is honestly amazing to hear, enjoy your weekend.

[@politedemons]

this really improved my view on the lore. clears up a lot of confusion

[@handgun559]

It's interesting that the Japanese term for outer god is what it is, because it does still imply that the Greater Will would be considered an outer god if it wasn't in power. It would be outside of the system. And I find it particularly interesting because I think it's more evidence that The Greater Will is only consider the God above all because he's in charge. Yet he clearly follows the same construction of the other gods. They represent principles of nature and existence, and the Greater Will is tied to Order. Cause, and effect. The laws of causality and the law of regression. Basically, the Greater Will is the embodiment of "energy is never destroyed, and all actions have an equal and opposite reaction." I don't think we should forget that the lore was written by a westerner, so I still think the "vying for power" thing works for the outer God's. The Greater Will didn't create squat. He just won the war for control. We see him attack, ostracize and subjugate other gods like the Fire Giants and the cursed omen's god. Cuz it does feel a little disingenuous to say westerners don't get eastern notions of God's, kami, or yokai. These religions have a lot in common with ancient mesopotamian religions, that Greek and Norse also derived from, because basically all religions derive from there. Christian understanding of these religions has certainly done some damage, but the Greek's didn't actually believe in the gods as physical beings who did real things like christians believe God exists in heaven. Poseidon was a characture of the "anger and violence" of earth motions. The Greeks knew earthquakes and tidal waves were related, and that's why Poseidon is how is, and why he's the earth shaker despite being a water based deity. Angry, ruthless, and prone to mood swings. The stories they told, and the stories we act like they believed, were often understood as allegory. Something which is actually a rising trend amongst Judaism. Many Jews are agnostic and see the Torah as a set of allegories to learn from. They don't even have a concept of heaven or hell to begin with. Back on how the Greek's depict this; Adultery was bad, and it was embodied by the Greek's depiction of lightning. Sudden. Gone I'm a breath. Yet both stunning and destructive. Made sense that they told allegories of infidelity through this aspect of nature. If I were better studied I could go hella on about the Norse because I know they also practiced religion like this. My point is just that it's not lost on me that gods can be represented by forces of nature, and not all stories of God's are about them vying for control. But if I might, religions where God's are forces of nature ALSO heavily represent them as waring forces. Amatarasu and Susano? Figures of the sun and storm who fight for control of the sky? Hinduism has a whole section of a war between divas and ashuras for territory. It's not just an western idea. So I really don't think we should just put down that the gods in Elden Ring fight each other when we have instances of the Greater Will committing genocide against the fire giants because they held the possibility of fighting him, and the demonization of the fell omen for the blood. Are those not acts of war? And when we consider them further as acts of nature; the embodiment of order, and cause and effect goes to war with a god of fire because it's the only thing that threatens the current order. The omen are seen as outside of the order, and the chaos flame is seen as an antithesis of it. Are these not acts of war between forces of nature that naturally conflict? Fire threatens to burn order. The Omen threaten to subvert order. The chaos threatens to undo order. This has been my essay. Thanks.

[@c5365]

I like Smoughtown, but much like his previous video, I just don't agree with this one. I'm still convinced that all the Outer Gods are in fact cosmic entities (ala Lovecraft) vying for control over the Lands Between, even if they do seem oddly obsessed with the one thing they like (i.e. "rot", "blood", "fire" etc.). I think the Greater Will just happens to be the one that won control over the area for a long, long time, and basically used propaganda to spin history its own way... That's why it seems like the strongest, best "God", and why it claims to be the creator of life, and has the fancy-sounding title of "Greater Will" with all the other cosmic entities labeled as mere "outer gods." I'm quite convinced that they don't like each other at all, and each really wants control over the Lands Between, for whatever esoteric reasons they have...

[@handgun559]

@@c5365 I guess I just don't get how the GW isn't clearly an antagonistic force for bad. It commuted genocide. Feels like we're ignoring that because Japan thinks we don't get something. Because it truly is silly to say the west doesn't get these concepts when we have the Greek's and native Americans.

[@c5365]

@@handgun559 Yeah, I don't trust the Greater Will....I'm giving it the squinty side-eye. 🤔

[@rodrigogrover3322]

A humble token of appreciation for the quality time you’ve given me through your content

[@SmoughTown]

Wow thank you so much Rodrigo, very much appreciated!

[@chocomilk3428]

just wanted to say thank you so much for all the work, your content has only enriched my experience of this game.

[@SmoughTown]

My pleasure. Thank you so much for watching

[@aceofspace553]

Keep up the great work! Can’t wait to see more from you!

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Dylan! More to come

[@silvertemplar8061]

Nice Marcus Aurelius Quote. I also really like how the Outer Gods have an outlook on different philosophies as well. The Gormless Mother being the desire for power through the blood. The Golden Order of the Greater Will seemingly making order the highest virtue above all else, from that of a legalistic standpoint. The Rot god like that of a Darwinistic struggle in survival of the fittest. (Almost like Sith philosophy). And I guess the stars desire the want for exploration and conquest. They seem to reshape the environments they are in when they gain influence as well, which no doubt is troubling. Looking at those damn monstrous crows.

[@DEGENERATORexe]

A video on the Crystallians would be interesting. They have to be one of the most subtle but purposeful additions to Elden Ring, as extremely ancient and foreign-like beings in the Lands Between. I've always felt like they predate the dragon age somehow, maybe they're forever longing an age of the Crystallians, but have never grasped the Elden Ring. I think it's especially important in that the Crystallians might have their own representative outer God, but ostensibly, their God is the most peculiar and foreign of them all; I mean just look how unique the Crystallians are to begin with. My guess is that the Crystallian outer God is a Kami representation of primordial earth and potentiality. Regardless, a video on the Crystallians is super needed on KZbin, you gotta do it.

[@MMMM-vq1yr]

'The Crystalians are inorganic beings, yet they live. They cleave close to the ideals of the primeval current, and as such, they are revered guests of the sorcerers.' A lot of emphasis is placed on the fact that they're strangely non organic life. Despite being inorganic they're still effected by rot, which to me symbolizes just how powerful of a disease it is. Like many previous titles, the more sorcery or magic themed quests and factions seem to be about manipulating the natural order to uplift humanity past it. Thinking outside the box. For example, The Eternal city creating life like the mimic tears and eventually albinaurics is seen as something unnatural and going against the established Golden Order -- which presumably wants a monopoly on the creation of life, it could also be for a number of other reasons. The reason why the crystalians are revered guests of the sorcerers could be that they're made out of space rocks yes, it could also be that they somehow rise above the ideas of life and death. They're stated to be technically alive but in a very strange way, seemingly unrelated to ideas of gold -- although they do drop runes. I imagine their creator isn't a god or outer spirit, but a literal mortal creator -- possibly the same one that made all of the golems (or invented golem making) since golems in general seem to be associated with crystals via the crystal darts. Potentially they could be the alabaster/onyx lords, the great troll blacksmiths, previous sorcerers or something else. Thinking about it it's interesting that Lusat and Azur -- two of the most powerful mages closest to the Primeval current seemed to be trying to become like Crystalians, and ended entering some sort of (at least it seems to us) catatonic but invincible state (cut content suggests you could kill though).

[@DEGENERATORexe]

@@MMMM-vq1yr I like the response bro, thank you. I don't know why it never occurred to me that the Crystallians were linked to the moon and/or primeval current. That seems really obvious now. But I wonder if they are the most real, original, authentic actors involved with the moon and primeval current. Ostensibly, I'd surmise they're the closest to taking the form which Sellen, Lusat, and Azur sought to work towards, to become intrinsically linked to the stars. Still I hope that they're somehow at least as ancient as the dragons, I don't now why, but I feel I'd be disappointed if they were made by the same entity that made the golems. So, what I kinda like to believe now is that they're an ancient pre-erdtree race which was (or still are) intimately connected with the stars (because they're made of glintstone, I guess), and possibly had (or still have) their own representative outer God whom they long to have as bearer of the Elden Ring.

[@DEGENERATORexe]

@@dominicmarazita6058 yeah, that's exactly what they are, they're unaffiliated with the greater will. But there's also an argument to be made that the Crystallians worship their own distinctive outer God.

[@kumorithecat]

Great video as always, I find it funny that I came to almost the same conclusion about the outer gods when I tried at the time to explain to myself, how the blind swordsman defeated and sealed the god of rot, deducing at the times that the outer gods were incarnations of the various elements, therefore challengeable by forces and an opposite elements such as flowing water in this case. It is lovely to see it all confirmed thanks to Mirko, Sabaku, and you.

[@yael4171]

Excited for this one, the outer gods have the most interesting lore in my opinion. Also I love how instead of being like physical beings they’re more like forces that need avatars to act. Which once again reminds me of Brandon Sandersons shards

[@DarkerGames]

Recently found this channel listened to your Lord of Blood lore video and am currently listening to your Miquella The Unalloyed lore video very interesting really in depth and absolutely love the high notch quality the videos have, incredible Outer Gods lore video SmoughTown have a marvelous day

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you so much! I hope you have a lovely day too

[@DarkerGames]

@@SmoughTown you’re welcome, thanks I will

[@alexgroot2508]

Stellar work, as ever. The world logic of Elden Ring is much more cohesive when viewed like this- a great, mostly disinterested god that only cares about an order, a system being in place and many lesser aspects of the divine vying for how to interpret that order- with the living below even them scrambling around like madmen trying to make it all work. By the by, mad respect that you continue to reevaluate and correct your interpretation of the lore in these videos as they go. Its nice, following your journey. I think part of the reason why the community was so stuck on Outer Gods as Lovecraftian beings, as opposed to using the lens of kamis, might be because its pretty well known that the 'narrative' of Elden Ring, the lore, was written by Martins, and in ASOIAF, Lovecraftian themes *are* prevalent. Perhaps that is part of the reason why it took so long for us to come around. Amazing work, looking forward to see what you make of the Frenzied Flame. That one honestly made more sense in the 'Cosmic beings vying for power' setting- I have no idea how it fits into this one.

[@mentosis797]

Another excellent video Smough, always a pleasure to listen to while working. Thanks!

[@SmoughTown]

Have a great day at work

[@DotTiuri]

The stars really do seem like a natural force in the world. I think that while the sun may be our solar systems center that is not the case for elden ring. It seems the stars are a part of the elden ring and the greater will or at least a natural force on par with the rot and the like. Meaning that the elden ring itself is kind of the center of everything, tho likely not geographically since the elden ring most likely changed place since the dragon/crucible age.

[@elisej-i3023]

Go Smough! I'm so excited for this one!

[@SmoughTown]

Enjoy Elise!

[@wonders7580]

Love how the kami were finaly touched upon I did a college study on it a few years ago, seems literaly every form of belife before them came in terms of theorizing even though they literaly are all in old shinto considred "outsides forces"(ideas,feelings,conecpts,physical forces,cases of sickeness), that come to effect this universe like actual physical forces and carry thier own strong emotional forces that we can produce also because they need those who can acutual comprehend and manifest to flow thier energies.

[@playkapenda2074]

I literally just watched your Greater Will video, and then you bless me with this. You’re a scholar and a saint, Sir Smough.

[@SmoughTown]

That support means the world to me. Hope you enjoy this one as well

[@Revelation40000]

It is interesting how these Outer Gods and the Great Ones are both similar and yet so different.

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

Well, Outer Gods are based on Outer Gods of Lovecraft. While Great Ones are based on Old Ones of Lovecraft. So similarity is understandable. Old Ones are merely children/servants/priests of Outer Gods, not as incomprehensible or cosmic, though still eldritch in nature, and don't govern any spesific universal function. While Outer Gods have domains over cocepts of fertility, darkness or knowledge itself.

[@Revelation40000]

@@matiasluukkanen7718 Oh I'm familiar with them, I just was comparing how the Great Ones were driven supposedly out of compassion while the Outer Gods are certainly not.

[@aidenmclaughlin1076]

Been looking forward to this one!

[@SmoughTown]

Enjoy Aiden

[@vanghard]

About the Kami thing : I just in my first playthrough (and I come back to souls since DS3...so take my PoV with a lot of salt) My PoV is it'sboth Kami and outer deities (Greater will too): It's a Vaughn diagram: the center of every circle is outside the land between but every circle is into the land between. So they are force of the world but reside outside of it. Why I think that : All deities have finger, or maiden or vessels, and each one is a concept: rot, chaos, order, etc... The only reason the equilibrium is broken is because of the removal of the runes of death : Maybe to win against other concept/deities/kami, Marika remove death from the equation: therefore she/he removed entropy: and every force that wage war against the order is a form of entropy. Therefore the golden order have generated something as an eternal status quo, until Ranni decide to Kill Godwyn to bring back death, and therefore broke the status quo. I don't say my PoV is perfect, and obviously lore digger will have dozen of point to oppose to me. But ATM, it's my PoV.

[@HulaCanFly]

Congrats on 100k!!!

[@ryanwhaley5041]

Interesting that the Thorn Sorcerers don’t seem to have closer ties to Mohg. I hadn’t really considered how their thorns blinding them is similar to how Mohg’s horn has grown into his eye.

[@General_Chadahn]

It's here!!! So hyped for this 🙏

[@SmoughTown]

Enjoy!

[@KyokujiFGC]

Like you said, I think we always need to remember that, despite the game's aesthetics, this is still a Japanese game made by Japanese devs, and a lot of their lore is largely going to be based on their own cultural experience, which is why the Souls games have always had lots of shinto or buddhist references. The frenzied flame, for example, has lots of parallels with buddhist principles.

[@krystal7916]

Just in time for my lunch break. Thank you. Love this content!

[@SmoughTown]

Enjoy and enjoy your lunch!

[@thepyrokitten]

I think you're closer to the accurate truth this video. These 'gods' are more like intangible forces which must act through avatars. This is a little different from kami because kami are typically interchangeable with the thing itself. This also means they have some intrinsic power over their domain. (Rot, blood, etc) I think the truth here is that all of these kami have an astral counterpart so that the sky is literally a reflection of the influences of the world. Just as some stars are brighter, some kami have stronger influence. This is played out on a smaller scale on The Lands Between. Some struggles are purely political but some are due to waxing/waning influence of the kami due to human (mostly demigod) intervention. Also it's important to note that kami are NOT just natural concepts. They can be extremely specific, general, natural, or man-made. For instance, The Greater Will may not be a god of life but a god of "life from the consumption of detritus" (strong tree imagery). This could also be reversed. Many of these themes may be due to one broad concept being subdivided into aspects which then have their own significance. For instance, the Formless Mother being the god of blood but also indirectly, wounds. I think you're getting stuck on the word *external* but in reality it's more like "not included in" or "not in conflict with" I think a lot of these themes don't necessarily play as expansive a role as you might expect or are due to themselves having other influences. i.e. Alchemy *does* seem to play a role in the cosmic structure and history but much less so in the current era. But that may be due to the symbolism from alchemy being linked to the period in history which serves as a strong influence for Elden Ring.

[@alexamckeay3713]

This was a great video! Really sheds light on a lot. I am curious, though; how does Miguella's unalloyed gold fit into this? If he's fundamentally stalling the forces of nature, what would his order look like, without the outer gods' influence?

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you Alexa! It's a good question and tbh, the very idea of Kami is making me rethink all of these things and will need to get back to you!

[@samueltitone5683]

This theory of the outer gods being kami seems like it would have interesting implications for Miquella’s motives. Is he actually trying to create an order with the Greater Will alone? After all, the Greater Will is heavily associated with gold and unalloyed gold would be pure gold without the taint of other metals.

[@goldenbrigain7031]

I'm frankly curious about the idea the formless mother could in some way be connected to the crucible. Like it's power source. For example, knowing the primordial Elden Ring army was one of gold...and the formless mother seems to grant abilities that allow her followers to take on the aspects of different animals like how Moth's wings seem eerily similar to a crucible knights... Makes ya wonder if back in the old days since the golden order was fine with incorporating other 'kami' into it, and the whole reason this mess even started was because Marika denounced the inclusion of the kami of death and killed the gloom--eyed queen against the greater will's wishes

[@sleegon7475]

Have to say I love this video it is really well done. I don't think the outer gods are part of the elden ring as he says since some of the lore suggests they have existed before the greater will came. I do think they gain power from faith that allows them to shape the world in there way. I think the greater will is more overconfident. I don't think it cares about the golden order, just an order and as long as the order is in his faith he doesn't notice the power of the other outer gods in that order and as the outer god with greater faith he has control of how the world works at the moment. otherwise great video, this explains a lot of certain aspects that have completely stumped me.

[@coroarc8423]

I like your videos and I always thought that it was strange that everyone said the greater will is an outer god. Very cool stuff you got here!

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Ernst! I think it's important we keep challenging these ideas!

[@coroarc8423]

@@SmoughTown absolutely. Nice one!

[@apostolosnikolis5281]

So, the outer gods, in order to be like kami, were created after the elden ring shattered. But the scarlet Scorpion was a god before the shattering of the elden ring, the fell flame god existed before the shattering of the elden ring and outer god of death/deathbirds, also existed before the shattering of elden ring. In addition, being kami, means there should be an outer god of lighting, an outer god of gravity, an outer god of primordial current, different from the current and one for frost/frostbite. Yet, there is no mention anywhere. The problem I have with this theory is that, for example, scarlet rot exists so it manifests as a god, the scarlet Scorpion, but the scorpion god is making scarlet rot manifest because of him. Furthermore, if they are kami-like why do we have combinations of the elements like frost-lighing and bloodflame?

[@ianperry4974]

I found it interesting that mohg is seemingly guarding the frenzied flame. Then I realized he might not necessarily be guarding it. He’s recruiting. What better place to recruit his own cultists for his outer god than a place where there are already those on their way to seek another?

[@jtillman8251]

Maybe this is my western sensibilities making it hard to me to parse the nuances, but I'm not seeing where the incompatibility rises between the idea that the outer gods are "Cosmic gods" and the idea that they're more or less Kami. Many depictions of "Cosmic outer gods" are expressed as loosely defined representations of abstract forces, not so different from natural forces of nature, things like chaos, order, or vitalism. These may be more abstract than things like wind, rain, or fire, but that's sort of the point of the cosmic framing. Azathoth is the one of the biggest dog's in Lovecraft's cosmology because chaos if more fundamental to nature than the more concrete forces we humans are comfortable dealing with. What I'm struggling with here is the implication that cosmic gods aren't supposed to be "natural" within their own cosmologies, and I wonder if coming from Bloodborne's framing (having no PS4 I never played through it and only know it's lore secondhand so I could be off base here) of cosmic entities simply being a group of "greater beings" warring against one another for supremacy might be coloring people's ideas about the outer gods. There were beings like this in Lovecraft, but they're not the "outer gods" in that mythos. In any case, the idea that the outer gods were excluded by the greater will as opposed to simply being peers of the greater will trying to take over sounds reasonable enough. I just don't see why the western conception of stuff like Azathoth, or Shub'Niggurath, or even something more prosaic like Khorne the blood god from Warhammer are being oppositionally framed against being read as personifications of natural forces as a Kami would be. If the Formless Mother is like a Kami (being as I see it a personification of a human tendency to transgress boundaries in pursuit of power and knowledge rather than some sort of natural force of phenomena personified) I don't see why Yog'Sothoth isn't.

[@SmoughTown]

You are right - there isn't an incompatibility between seeing them as both cosmic and kami however I guess this video is more addressing the people who believe that these are 'less abstract' cosmic beings, which I do believe are the greater part of the western audience.

[@jtillman8251]

@@SmoughTown Oh wow! Thanks for the reply. I wasn't expecting you'd ever even see the comment! I see what you mean though. I'm probably being a little nitpicky here, having had a few arguments on reddit in the past with people dismissing "western sensibilities" when it comes to interpreting Elden Ring lore, so I might have been being a little defensive. To elaborate a bit on my specific take on the Formless mother, I read it as something of a liminal goddess. The Formless Mother is the Mother of Truth, and you commune with it by forcing a wound in a sort of breaching of a boundary. Transgressing the distinction between the inner and outer in a forceful, violent act. To me the implication isn't just that it's about blood, or wounding. It's about the act of choosing to wound with purpose, even it's yourself you're wounding. Mohg forcing his way into Miquella's cocoon is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here. There's a boundary Mohg is forcfully pressing through without regard for the damage he's doing, only the ends he's seeking. I don't know if anyone will get the reference, but there's a figure called the Mother of Ants in the game Cultist Simulator that feels very much in the same wheelhouse as the Formless Mother, being a goddess of lockpickers, oracle, burglars, and wounds. In the unique plot arc written for her you play as a priest who becomes increasingly influenced by her esoteric cult and ultimately leads his flock into murdering himself with knives as a sort of cult ritual of opening the way to higher mysteries. I highly recommend the game if you have a lot of patience and enjoy this kind of esoteric worldbuilding stuff.

[@brendanmuller7301]

@@jtillman8251 Hello say it back

[@will2fite34]

What made the "Outer" in outer gods click for me was your video examining the Nox where you pointed out that the Fingerslayer Blade was performing the "Outer Order" symbol. Makes much more sense that the outer gods would be other forces at work in the lands between who are opposed to or at the very least excluded from the "inner order" of the Erdtree than just cosmic beings, as the latter theory takes away the unique factor present in the moon worship and study of primeval current that are present in Liurnia and distinguish Glintstone Sorcery from other spells (Gelmir and Death Sorceries are an odd outlier in this pattern).

[@itzamedio5427]

Ooooooh, I'm always so excited whenever you put out a new video!

[@SmoughTown]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@itzamedio5427]

@@SmoughTown Definitely

[@Ninjabob568]

This makes everything I thought and felt about the game while playing in my first time align much better. I always felt them as a force of the world not separate from it.

[@urameshi4725]

I think we'll get another Outer God and maybe even demigods from other lands in the DLC! Beings that will surpass even Malenia in the new end-game.

[@whosdaman911]

I cannot tell you how great I think this video is for the community. The outer gods were a concept I felt was being wholly misunderstood by the community, in large part because of their localized name, which you addressed perfectly. I wish they would have been named something like natural gods or outer forces. The Japanese understanding of these 'Outer gods' makes so much more sense. And is why we don't see every one of these forces trying to take over everything. Characters in game must push these forces beyond their natural use. Many exist just as a part of the lands between much as forces of our world naturally exist around us. Certain forces such as rot naturally do grow as more is enveloped by it. But other forces only grow when we see characters in the lands between adopt these forces and use them for their own gain, Such as mohg. When we read of an outer God sealed away, I believe it is meant that the being that had adopted and was using this force of rot had been defeated and thus rots effects on the world halted. The reason malenia was born with and possesses the power of rot is less about a conscious being have selected her, I think, but more about the natural force of rot having affected her, and her wielding it, as many before her likely have. She essentially becomes the next outer God of rot. Not that she is the only one spreading it, but certainly she would be considered the greatest wielder of it and is spreading it beyond its natural cycle of decay and bloom. Causing things to begin rotting that otherwise may not be affected. I could go on, but again I just want to say thank you for making this video. I hope you continue to work with others for translations and extrapolating Japanese concepts to make the game lore more complete!

[@SmoughTown]

These kind words really mean alot. I was in the same position, something didn't feel right about our interpretation and I feel these ideas just slot in so nicely and I am really grateful to those who helped me.

[@cemarz]

The outer gods are clearly beings with motivation. Like, bluntly. More than bluntly. The plot is to beat and replace or adhere to an outer god that uses the guise of gold and order to claim control over the world. This revelation drives people insane. And if for whatever reason you want to think that the Greater Will isn't an outer gods we have the same situation with Mohg. He wants to turn Miquella into a God of blood but the outer god he is using refuses to do this, confusing and frustrating him. Ie, it has will. Malenia turns into a Goddess of Rot in phase two of her fight. You'll notice she's not called Outer Goddess of Rot. This is because outer gods are different things. And based on the Greater Wills complete discard for order and gold, the thing it pretends to value, it's likely that the outer god of rot and the formless God likewise don't care about blood or rot and are just using them for influence.

[@jakewu8268]

Loved the reference to the Chaos God Nurgle from Warhammer. Excellent vid as always.

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you Jake and yeh I am so saturated with Warhammer, I tend to make comparisons haha

[@augustuslxiii]

10:52 is spot-on. Looking forward to upcoming Elden Ring nutritional lore video.

[@user-gk2pp8dq9p]

I think it is important to try to distinguish what was Martin's part of the creation process. Yes the game is japanese, but Martin is not.

[@SmoughTown]

Yeh think I will do a video trying to dissect this some day

[@victorbressler7156]

this is why i disagree with the notion that the OG are kami like

[@ladonmccabe]

I love all the points, especially on the Formless Mother and Mohg, with omen blood (I think specifically royal omen blood, as we only see bloodflame from mohg and Morgott.) Being a stronger medium, as well as calling attention to the blood star. We cannot forget tho, the importance of red glintstone and "stars" as a whole. The alberich's set specifically mentions red glintstone as a catalyst, and with stars playing such a huge role with fate and even taking a more physical and living forms as we see with Astel. I love that you're kinda with me on seeing the blood star and the Formless Mother having associations, but something even more notable, is that aberrant sorceries are channeled with faith, like bloodflame, and even tho they don't have an arcane requirement, the sorceries' bleed is boosted when used with an arcane scaling staff, like how bloodflame uses arcane, and all bleed instruments benefit from arcane. I wonder if maybe sorcery and incantations are more closely connected, a la demon souls, and perhaps glintstone is one medium for casting spells, using glintstone to channel "magic" ie sorceries, which is possibly fundamentally know different than incantations, where instead of purely using glintstone to channel magic, your will, or "faith", is used to channel it instead. In fact, we see some sorceries and incantations requiring both int/glintstone and faith to channel. And double in fact, if you look at the staff of guilty it has no mention of glintstone or even glintstone on the staff at all. It has a weird pink fetus thing stabbed on it, but no glintstone, even red red glintstone like alberich has. Triple in fact, when you cast briar spells, especially with the staff of the guilty, it looks more like you're using the staff to cause self blood letting, so you can use your faith to "mold" the blood into briars. Just like when you use bloodboon, and I posit all bloodflame spells, you're reaching into the Formless Mother, ie wounding her, and throwing the accursed blood at ppl. So, following this line of thought, just like the Kami you propose, I believe magic as whole has been "factured", or more so than that, can just be channeled through many mediums, and Sorcerers used there "intelligence" to make glintstone and perhaps "the stars" channel magic and spells for them, instead of having to have immense will/faith or "inherent knowing"/arcaneness. Elden ring has seemingly moved more towards the ideas of magic just being magic, and how you channel them is the only difference, similar to demon souls. Edit: small revision, perhaps it's not will power when talking faith, but perhaps like how smarty pants use glintstone to channel magic, maybe the "devout" use their "God" or religion in the same way glintstone is used. And with arcane being so closely related to natural things people can do that aren't necessarily "Magic", like poison, making people bleed, getting some scarlet rot together and throwing it at dudes and coating weapons, perhaps Arcane is the "ability" to use natural things to aid you (coating weapons arrows in poison, knowing the right amount of poison to cause maximum damage, or the the right tools and the right way to use the tools to cause the most hemorrhaging as you have higher arcane, or in another way, or more firmer grasp on the world in general). Such as how the "magic stat" was arcane in bloodborne, we didn't cast magic in that game, we used tools to cause things to happen. Just like having a lighter doesn't make you a fire wizard, but it does allow you to channel fire and use it regardless. All through science and understanding natural laws was that device able to be made and used in that way. That's what arcane is. Science bitch Edit edit: I think if "Stars" are akin to outer gods, spirits of fundamental things, I think there is a sort of "separation". Perhaps Stars are fundamentals of the universe, while more natural outer gods like Rot and Death are more "local", or fundamentals of the world. Sorry, that was a massive tangent, but I LOVE this video, I was waiting with bated breath. Did not disappoint

[@SmoughTown]

Hey Ladon, thanks for all these observations - I am glad you are more or less on the same page! So happy you enjoyed the video after the wait and thanks for the support

[@ladonmccabe]

@@SmoughTown honestly was disenchanted with lore community until I started watching your vids. You got that sauce man, you make it fun to engage and speculate, and you do an amazing job as a whole. So thank you

[@SmoughTown]

@@ladonmccabe You don't know how much that means to me. I love this game and the community and will strive to keep researching this incredible world

[@ladonmccabe]

@@SmoughTown you're the man, I could butter you up all day haha. Can't wait to see what you got cooking up next.

[@SmoughTown]

@@ladonmccabe Hahaha you are a legend dude. Have a great weekend. Next video is already on the stove!

[@quintinrumph1387]

In my mind when Hyeta talks about the one great being split I started to think of the outer gods as those fracture and the one great being the system that incorporate all others. Keeping up elden ring’s theme that power and order are only defined by those who wield them.

[@LuciferLuckless]

The description of how the guilty found the Blood Star after having their eyes gouged out by thorns has interesting parallels to the story of Hyetta, and how she finds the distant light of the Flame of Frenzy. The Shield of the Guilty description tells us that there was a maiden "whose eyes were crushed by Briars of Sin," but that then she was reborn within "these lands." "These lands" probably refers to the Lands Between in general, but it could also refer to the Weeping Peninsula, where you find the shield and where you find Irina, who dies and presumably is reborn as Hyetta. "Briars of Sin" is capitalised in the Shield's description, and it could easily refer specifically to the spell of the same name. Briars of Sin states that it was "discovered along with red glintstone by those exiled to the north for their crimes," and that it "summons large thorns from a whorl of blood shed by one's own hand in penance for sins." Red glintstone is only mentioned in a few item descriptions. Alberich's set tells us they are "said to be formed by the blood of sacrifices." The Staff of the Guilty elaborates on this: " fashioned from a smoldering, withered sapling that turns the blood of sacrifices pierced by it into glintstone." I wish I knew for certain what kind of sapling it is that produces red glintstone. As it's discoverers were exiled to the North, and there are many Thorn Sorcerers in the Mountaintops of the Giants, I think it is likely that it can be found there. Additionally, Alberich himself wields cold sorcery as well as Briars of Sin. This leads me to my best guess, that red glintstone comes from candletrees. Candletrees are a very special but quite mysterious kind of tree. The Candletree Shield description states "Thought to represent a surreptitious prophecy of cardinal sin, the lit candle-tree design was forbidden." So Candletrees are associated with Sin, and are depicted as being alight, fitting with how sapling the Staff of the Guilty is made from is described as "smoldering." Additionally, numerous candletrees are found right outside the Guardian's Garrison, home of the flame monks and the thorn sorcerers. We also see them at Flame Peak, where many of them are impaling the corpses of Giants. This matches how Staff of the Guilty states sacrifices are "pierced by" the sapling. None of these candletrees are lit, however. But there are much smaller, silvery spectral trees in other areas that I believe are lit candletrees. Interacting with them will spawn a ghost of a hollow that you can follow to a specific location, such as the Mistwood Ruins in Limgrave or the Altus Tunnel on the Plateau. But all of these facts about candletrees feel so incongruous. On one hand, we have candletrees that pierce sacrifices to turn their blood into red glintstone, that is powered by faith as well as intelligence. On another hand, we have these lit candletrees, which seem like spirits themselves, and provide ghostly guidance. But then we also have this idea of lit candletrees being profane imagery portending Cardinal Sin. Cardinal Sin is almost certainly the act of burning the Erdtree, as burning the Erdtree is referred to as Cardinal Sin many times by Enia and Melina, and nothing else in Elden Ring is described as Cardinal. In this regard, candletrees are probably only related to Cardinal Sin because they happen to be trees on fire, and that is an image that the Golden Order deems heretical, as they are desperate to protect the husk of the Erdtree. So it seems almost coincidental that candletrees have this strong link to a completely different kind of Sin, the Briars of Sin summoned from blood shed in penance. However, it could be that red glintstone comes from another kind of plant. The sacramental bud description states that it contains fresh blood, and that it is believed that the strain was "cultivated with youthful, sacramental blood." A sacrament is a holy ritual, which could include the exiles shedding blood from their own hands in penance for their sins. Sacramental buds are also presumably the same species as Crystal Buds and Rimed Crystal Buds. The Crystal Buds are clearly linked to glintstone and magic, as Crystal Buds are used in Magic Grease, which describes its materials as "magically resonant." Interestingly, none of these buds are found in plant form in the Mountaintops of the Giants, despite the fact that the Rimed Crystal Buds state they are "widely found in cold regions." Rimed Crystal Buds do drop from the Crayfish in the Mountaintops though, which presumably feed on them. So the Crystal Bud species seems to grow somewhere in the Mountaintops of the Giants, but we can't find them ourselves. Or can we? What if the Crystal Buds are the saplings of candletrees? We find plenty of candletrees in the Mountaintops, which could be the source of the Rimed Buds the Crayfish eat. Both the Crystal and Rimed Crystal Buds descriptions state that they crystalised "before [they] could mature," but the Sacramental Bud does not. It only states it is a young plant. Because it has been *cultivated* with blood, which the species needs in order to grow to adulthood. And where were they first cultivated with blood? Where was red glintstone discovered? Where have they had the time to grow into adult trees? The Mountaintops of the Giants. The only place we find adult candletrees. Additionally, the Rimed Crystal Buds are found all over Caria Manor, and can be used to make Freezing Pots, which are engraved with the Crest of the Carian Royals. And where does the first lit candletree most players will find lead them? To Mistwood Ruins. To *Blaidd*." However, I have gotten *seriously* off-topic taliking about candletrees, so let's backtrack a lot. The Guilty Hood tells us that those accused of "lesser crimes" are made to wear a collar of sharpened branches. The Thorn Sorcerers wear these collars, so clearly they are guilty of some crime. For their crimes, they were presumably exiled to the North, either specifically to work for the Flame Monks and Fire Prelates, or they came to work together later due to proximity. The Guilty seem to be genuinely, well, *guilty* about their crimes, and want to atone. They sacrifice blood in an attempt to atone, and this ends up leading to the discovery of Sacramental Buds, red glintstone and the Briars of Sin spell. At least one of them, a maiden, has her eyes crushed by this spell, most likely being self-inflicted. She dies, but is reborn, and venerated. She is said to be reposed, meaning her soul is at heavenly rest. Now we come to the Briars of Punishment description. it states that "The guilty, their eyes gouged by thorns, lived in eternal darkness. There, they discovered the blood star." Guilty here is definitely plural. I believe that others, venerating the maiden, her resurrection and her enlightenment, followed in her path, gouging out their own eyes. It only makes sense for them to gouge out their own eyes; the guilty hood only describes the collar of sharpened twigs as punishment, and they were the only ones who knew how to summon the Briars of Sin. And it was together, in eternal darkness, that they finally discovered the Blood Star. We see this play out all over again in the present day, but with a different maiden and a different God. Irina is another blind maiden, but instead of being blinded by a violent physical wound, she was born afflicted with weak eyesight. A cruel act of fate. She is then murdered by the misbegotten, themselves shunned and despised for a random quirk of fate that led to them being born afflicted. And Irina is reborn. As Hyetta, she is born once again with weak eyesight, but now she sees a different light. And like the Guilty Maiden, Hyetta is venerated. "The others who give me grapes, [...] They rest their trembling hands upon me. Howling wordlessly, they gently stroke my eyes. Their frail fingers, emaciated...Yet still, they give me the grapes." We all know that Shabriri Grapes are actually human eyeballs by now. Their description states that they came from the infirm. Infirm, like Irina was, and Hyetta is. To be infirm is to be weak in body or mind. Those born with failing eyesight are infirm. As are those afflicted with serious mental illness. Infirmity is a mark of life's cruelty, how random chance can lead to a cursed existence, that might lead you to wish you had never been born. I believe that the others who give Hyetta Grapes are feeding her their own eyeballs. And eventually, Hyetta realises exactly why they choose to do so: "I have gleaned something very important indeed, thanks to you. The reason why it was eyes I had to eat. The distant light is far and frail. So faint it can't be seen by the naked eye. But with everyone's eyes together, it appears. Finally, it all makes sense. I am certain now, I will become a finger maiden." A maiden is blinded, and others blinded in the same manner devote themselves to her. And together, in the eternal darkness, they find a new, distant light. I believe that the blood star is to the Formless Mother exactly what the distant light is to the Three Fingers or the Flame of Frenzy. It is a way that a God manifests to the blind and faithful. The first step towards communion. And wouldn't you know it, there's a third maiden who is reborn in the game. Blinded by Rot, and worshpped by the Rotten.

[@handtomouth4690]

Holy shit, you just proposed a highly plausible lifecycle for crystal buds->candletrees, on a tangent talking about a interesting connection between the blood star and Hyetta. Well done.

[@LuciferLuckless]

@@handtomouth4690 I needed to vent some shit so I could go to sleep 😅

[@adamdrew7522]

We have to be careful not to lionize the Japanese lore community just because they are Japanese. The comment you received "despite the asthetics Elden Ring is a Japanese game" isn't 100% true. It's a fusionary game. The lore and story have contributions from Martin as well as the writers at From. And the From team explicitly draws on western ideas. That isn't to say that there's no Japanese influences or ideas, of course that would be absurd. It is to say though that Elden Ring fuses and blends concepts and ideas from both traditions. We can imagine that The Outer Gods may be intended to blend ideas from kami and cosmic deities bringing a bit of each, rather than just reflecting one or the other. Because of that fusion and blending we have to be careful not to simply accept a Japanese interpretation just because it comes from Japanese people. Just as we may miss or under emphasize Japanese influences, they may do the same to Western influences. And at the end of the day Elden Ring really is a cross cultural fusion that blends elements from both traditions.

[@mrrd4444]

I'm more familiar with animism than the Western idea of cosmic horror gods, so the outer gods made sense to me as more animist representations of natural concepts, that may or may not become corrupted or overgrown based on the current world order. For example - the natural concept of death becoming a blight due to the Golden Order's interference. Rot, death, blood, darkness are all concepts vilified by humans that are also natural to life. It's fascinating how Elden Ring presents the denial of these truths as ultimately harmful, even if it also shows that these concepts, when given too much power, can also be harmful. The Frenzied Flame is unique because it opposes order, and while chaos isn't inherently harmful, too much chaos can be antithetical to the order which governs life and humanity and civilisation as we know it.

[@SmoughTown]

100%, and since this idea was introduced to me - it just clicked and feels so right.

[@mrrd4444]

@@SmoughTown I edited my comment so I think your little heart on my comment disappeared LOL Thank you! I was so happy to see this video pop up, you're one of my favourite loretubers and I'm excited to listen to the rest of this one.

[@SmoughTown]

@@mrrd4444 hahah sorry how odd! Reapplied now. Thank you, I really appreciate the kind words and support. looking forward to hearing your thoughts

[@EscapeGate]

This blows my Elden Ring videos away. Good job!

[@joelpearce4970]

Hey man, just wanna say I love your videos so much. I listen to them at night to help me sleep and they’re just so fun

[@SmoughTown]

Hey Joel, thanks for the kind words - really glad you enjoy the content.

[@jfh1366]

Okay here’s something I’ve been thinking about every time you mention it: maybe you’re misinterpreting what is meant by the term Empyrean slightly? I’ve always took it to mean someone who has the POTENTIAL to usher in a new Era, thus as a more inherent characteristic. Then the Two Fingers do not make someone an Empyrean but just RECOGNISE them as one. This would be useful for the Greater Will so it could identify and control all the people who could become the god of a new age to ensure that the next age, whatever it is, is also an age under the Greater Will’s auspices. I feel like this could address that confusion who have over why Malenia could be an Empyrean. In this case she is an Empyrean fundamentally because of her birth rite, and that is what attracts the Outer God of Rot to infest her.

[@pinealdreams1064]

Not really sure how Ranni fits in, but for me, Empyrean for Miquella and Malenia just means they were born purely of a God. Marika and Radagon's other children had a human involved - either Godfrey or Rennala. Miquella and Malenia are pure God all the way. Which is why Ranni confuses things. She's Radagon and Rennala's daughter. Shouldn't qualify under that description.