Elder Gods And Their Kind

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[@arempy5836]

The way I've thought about it is that the Outer Gods are primordial and chaotic powers of existence that make up the universe while the Elder Gods are beings that gave structure to the universe. It's similar to the myths of Marduk killing Tiamat or Odin and his brothers killing Ymir, there are primordial chaos gods and then they are killed by orderly "hero" gods and have their corpse turned into the world. The Elder Gods limit and imprison Great old ones so that they do not bring back the chaos of the outer gods.

[@Miscast]

Oh my god, I had no idea you had a youtube channel Sandy! This is the best day ever.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

I am thrilled you found me.

[@JanusHoW]

I think if Lovecraft had learned about how August Derleth had attempted to create a "war in Heaven"-like scenario with the Elder Gods being the masters of the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones, he would have been very angry. If anything, the Elder Gods would be the rebels. They attempted to create little pockets of "sanity" in the blind, purposeless and chaotic cosmos that Azathoth dreamed up, and our world is floating in one of these pockets.

[@jackolantern147]

I don't know how he'd react. But I do know that Azathoth "dreaming reality" is a myth. He's at the center of the void, practices cannibalism, and is the strongest of the Other gods which is why no one wants to wake him up, but he does not dream all of reality. In fact, in one of Lovecrafts stories involving a time traveling Dreamer, Azathoth is awakened in the WAY distant future, one shotting Earth as the mythological gods run for their lives.

[@SorchaSublime]

​@@jackolantern147 I don't think it's that definite. Azathoth "awakening" may have been more akin to lucid dreaming, or perhaps the idea that Azathoth "dreams reality into being" *is* literally accurate but also strictly allegorical.

[@phobosanomly9473]

Sandy, I am using Nyarlathotep in my dnd campaign and my players are absolutely horrified by it and it's influence. I owe it to you. You are awesome man, thanks for all your hard work over the years whether in dnd, doom/quake, or elder mythos.

[@Miductions]

I always saw the Elder God’s in Lovecraft and CO’s works as being more like non-threatening Great Old One’s. Like their still cosmic horrors from beyond human understand, but their not as antagonistic towards humanity, like say Cthulhu or Nyarlethotep.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

that's not an unreasonable assumption. But Lovecraft gives us so little information on them we can probably project a number of different interpretations.

[@alexanderchippel]

My interpretation of the Elder Gods is that they're not necessarily opposed to the Outer Gods, but they have different methods. Like they all share the common goal of trying to keep Azathoth asleep so they don't die, but they go about it in different ways.

[@LordSathar]

Lol I love how Cthluhu Mythos seem to have different camps, there's Derlethian and Petersonian intepretations.

[@marktenney5812]

Glad to see Joshi referenced. I cited some of his literary criticism for my senior thesis in college.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

Then his goal has been achieved.

[@dubuyajay9964]

I personally think Nyarlathotep is the one running the show since Azathoth is mindless and yet he's his "messenger.". I think he just claims is a messenger, but is just doing whatever he wants and says "Azathoth made me do it."

[@spiritconsumer]

Yep. While the boss is away the mice will play. Imagine being allpowerful but your daddy is asleep to keep you in check. I absolutely believe your idea is right

[@AaronLitz]

I also use the idea that Great Old One is more of a level of power than an origin, and that various GOOs have vast and varied origins, each having arisen from a different race of beings. I even like the idea that the most ancient and powerful of each race of creatures ascends to become a GOO with enough time, in the way that Cthulhu himself is merely the most ancient and powerful of his race, the Star Spawn. In fact, Great Cthulhu is actually the High Priest of the Star Spawn race, being a priest of, I believe, Yog-Sothoth. I used this idea in a Delta Green campaign, with one of the DG Agents being slowly manipulated by Nyarlathotep into becoming a powerful sorcerer, with Gnarly's end goal being to have him ascend into a full Great Old One after several hundred millennia, a Great Old One that would be under Gnarly's thumb. My idea is basically the same as the Elders of the Universe from Marvel Comics, with the idea being that each Elder is the sole survivor of an extinct race of creatures that has risen up to become a godlike cosmic being, with part of the reason why they were able to ascend to such status being tied to a specific activity that the Elder obsessively pursues and has achieved mastery over. A couple of these Elders of the Universe have actually appeared in the MCU movies; the Collector and the Grandmaster. The Collector's area of interest is, well, collecting things, and the Grandmaster's area of interest is games. Some of the other Elders from the comic books are the Gardener, the Runner, the Champion, etc. Six of the Elders of the Universe were actually holders of the Infinity Gems, each holding a Gem that tied in to their specific obsession... although most weren't actually aware of the full nature of their Gems and only called upon the Gem's powers at a subconscious level (for example the Gardner possessed the Time Gem, which allowed him to suspend each pf his plants in time at its fullest bloom, and the Runner was in possession of the Space Gem, allowing him to literally run through space so fast that he would seemingly arrive at a new location before he had left his initial location) before Thanos tracked down each Gem wielder and wrested the Infinity Gem from them, as detailed in the Thanos Quest mini-series from the late '80s that lead into the original Infinity Gauntlet mini-series.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

well obviously not all the Great Old Ones are "last of their kind" but I do think it's useful for players to realize they aren't a "pantheon" so much as a "rank."

[@AaronLitz]

@@SandyofCthulhu Totally! GOO as a "rank" is probably the best way to put it, and each one got there through wide and varied means.

[@tedankhamenbonnah4848]

I'm on week 11 of my CoC campaign, you're giving me lots of food for thought

[@johnstorm9314]

I'm about to have my current character in a Masks campaign attempt to contact Nodens. Wish me luck. xD

[@H-HWJvN]

It's supposed to be vague in the end. No reason to apologize. And take care of your throat Sandy. ; )

[@Xoguran]

Regarding the matter of the Gugs offending the Great Ones I came with the idea, during a game, that originally they were a sentient and technically capable race which in their hubris did murder the Great One Kvasir to obtain forbidden knowledge related to language. Unable to come with a safe way to extract the knowledge found on Kvasir's tissue, mainly his ichor, their tampering with the corpse did end bringing the attention of the Great Ones who did unleash their ire as narrated in the story. My intention was to insinuate that the dwarves of Nordic myths were inspired by the ancient sentient Gugs and gave me the excuse of build an adventure involving the mead made from Kvasir's blood which was heavily influenced by John Carpenter's "The Prince of Darkness".

[@SandyofCthulhu]

Dwarfs are physically pretty different from Gugs but hey sounds good. and Prince of Darkness is a great thing to steal from.

[@Xoguran]

@@SandyofCthulhu On that regard, and after concluding said campaign, I think to use the mi-go's Grey "meat puppet" concept from Delta Green if I ever re-play this. Considering how horrible looking Gugs are it makes sense that while dealing with stone and bronze age humans they did develop small sized living humanoid disguises, and gotta admit that describing a Gug coming out of one of said "bio-suits" like a contortionist from Hell is a gruesomely fun reference to Bava's "Demons".

[@toddellner5283]

Uh, Ivan, there's a couple guys named Braggi and Odin outside who want to talk to you....

[@nolan412]

We waited and waited for the old ones. Years went by and then we arrived.

[@christopherreeves5203]

Great video! Love how down to earth you and your videos feel!

[@zeusdavenport393]

I agree with this, adding that human knowledge evolved from prehistory through 1000s of years and the rise and fall of civilizations. Much like we understand human history through interpretations of fragmentary records and archeological remains.... the same is true of our own occult literature and the fictional tomes of the mythos.. Words change, meanings change, poetic styles changes. I like the idea that Outer Gods are manifestations of the malevolent Lovecraftian cosmos, while Great Old Ones are different. Perhaps Cthulhu understands little more of the nature of the universe than we do of the nature of Cthulhu.

[@sirguy6678]

Great video! Looking forward to seeing videos about the out gods, who they are, and how they are featured in fiction and gaming

[@rolandkatsuragi]

For beings with such few references, there seems to be a lot of material about them

[@RantingThespian]

Most of which was written by Derleth and others after Lovecraft passed. Many (especially Derleth) expanded and started to classify Lovrcraft and his circle's creations into these categories. Derleth even started to say some were good, and some were evil, which kind of goes against cosmic horror. While he was essential to keeping Lovecraft's works alive (quite literally with saving them and publishing them through Arkham House), he's also a controversial figure behind the scenes of the Mythos. Lovecraft kept most of his creatures/gods/things very vague, and there wasn't a pantheon. There was just a very loose connection between entities that we cannot understand and some that we can't even see without trying to peer past the 4 dimensions that we reside in. They were not good and evil, since those are human concepts. Their full powers are also undefined and mostly unknown. There really are only 3 that are almost stated to be "omega level": Nyarlethotep, Yog-Sothoth, and of course Azathoth. Lovecraft's deities are ... well, they just ARE

[@gearmachine_4885]

I always thought the elder sign had something to do with the elder things, because of its five-pointed nature.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

It's likely. Or maybe HPL just liked stars.

[@Honarius1]

The original elder sign was that branch-like shape with the chaosium one appearing more like a pentagram, so probably not in my opinion.

[@RantingThespian]

@@Honarius1 It was Derleth who created the more well known and used Elder Sign we see today. When he ceated it, he did not know Lovecraft had a design, which resembles a tree branch. Lovecraft's design was only revealed much later, long after Derleth's stories. Some have tried to incorporate the two together, with Lovecraft's being in the center of Derleth's. I personally prefer Lovecraft's. It looks more archaic, simple and easy to create, and seems like something that could survive from some bygone elder days.

[@SorchaSublime]

​@@RantingThespianI like to think that the real elder sign is just like... geometry as a concept? Thus explaining why certain mathematically resonant shapes like the fractal tree or the pentagram (or a cross, 4 right angles intersecting...) work one way while broken, non euclidean shapes like the yellow sign do the opposite, either reinforcing or damaging the stability of reality.

[@krinkrin5982]

I think the reason you don't see multiple pantheons in a single culture is because even though there can be multiple gods vying for the same position or replacing each other, it a) happens over hundreds or thousands of years of retellings, and b) usually still counts as a single pantheon. New stories might appear but the pantheon as a whole doesn't change unless one culture conquers or assimilates another. But then we usually get no reference since nobody bothers to keep the old stories alive. For example, Romans had their own pantheon before they copied the Greek one, but we know almost nothing about it. Similarly, after Christianity took root, we lost most references and knowledge of existing mythology in many areas they conquered. Another reason might be that even though there are multiple different distinct groups in mythology, they either don't count as gods, so don't get included, or get included as a whole, no matter their classification. Be them Tuatha De Danann and Fomorians, or different Sithe courts, they aren't they aren't counted as different pantheons. I think the closest we have to different pantheons is Norse mythology, with Aesir, Vanir, etc. Even there we don't have groups mostly keeping separate. They are warring, marrying and otherwise interacting with each other.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

sure. Of course. It still means Lovecraft's idea is an interesting one, because his pantheons aren't replacing each other, but remaining separate.

[@toddellner5283]

The ancient Near East was full of cities or Empires with their own gods and plenty of stories of my gods beating up your gods. Marduk destroys Tiamat. Adonai's priests pwn Baal's. So on. So forth. India is lousy with local gods and traditions, many repurposed from older ones. The Divine Devas on the subcontinent become Devils in Persia. The Furies, a very, very old conception, are present in Classical Greek times, but the stories are re-written so that they're thoroughly under the thumb of Zeus. Christianity famously snarfed up old gods and heroes, filed off the serial numbers, and turned them into saints or demons. So on. So forth. It's a lot more common than we think, having grown up in an Abrahamic monoculture.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@toddellner5283 Very informative and interesting. Learned a lot today. Though I think Sandy's original examples were about pantheons not interacting almost at all while still sharing the same culture.

[@dubuyajay9964]

​@@toddellner5283That's mainly Catholicism and the Orthodoxy that converts old pagan entities. This was one of the complaints of various Protestants when they revolted.

[@toddellner5283]

@@dubuyajay9964 Heh. It starts out that way but doesn't stay that way forever. Saul of Tarsus was heavily invested in the pagan Greek idea of dualism. The Protestants aggressively posek him. In America we are seeing Evangelicals and Fundamentalists deifying capitalist ideas and declaring that they are the Will of God. This sort of drift is inevitable. Radical monotheism takes constant information hygiene. Even the Jewish Charedim are not immune ascribing near-divinity to certain rabbis within some of the Chassidic sects.

[@WarDogMadness]

another great video sandy hope your okay that cough sounds bad.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

I swear it's not a virus.

[@WarDogMadness]

@@SandyofCthulhui didn't think that sounded more like the wet chesty choughs i get with asthma from temperate changes always happen were im from Swansea.. its a lot like innsmouth smogg grey sight green glow to most things. and you could say a lot of people around here have a innsmouth look... its more modern lookin now.2021 but was a refinery city in the war bombed half to hell by the luftwaffe and the local council finished the rest off. it is now a tourist and student pit. but a lot people go missing into the sea and river tawe. hope your well.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

@@WarDogMadness I hear folk with the innsmouth look NEVER get asthma.

[@WarDogMadness]

@@SandyofCthulhu lucky buggers

[@AaronLitz]

@@SandyofCthulhu Unfortunately they get infestatations of the tongue-eating louse instead.

[@Bluehawk2008]

I always liked the short story "The Other Gods", where a pantheon of humanoid gods convening on an otherwise mundane mountain-top like Olympus are revealed to have a religion of their own, and their superiors are definitely not humanoid and not for human eyes. The story simultaneously tackles the absurdity of Greek myth if it's taken at face value, and also turns it on its head with a dash of cosmic horror.

[@markwelch1836]

@Sandy of Cthulhu Great content!!!! I think a lapel mic would do you wonders.

[@dougcarey2233]

The Solo Star Wars movie has one of the Lovecraft outer gods in it. Best part of that movie.

[@SorchaSublime]

Wait which one was that?

[@MrGarthboy]

We make a drink motto "how bout an old one", with Cthulhu icon on can

[@RantingThespian]

Just curious, I've heard you state many times that Cthulhu is a Star Spawn (or of some similar connection). I'm lost where this information is from. The really only time i've read anything about the Star Spawn was in ATMOM, and that wasn't in they story. Where is this information coming from? Is this something someone else (like Derleth) wrote? Was this something you created for a game? I'm at a lost, because everything I've read has Cthulhu being a completely separate unique entity. I've read theories that the Star Spawn were either created by Cthulhu to do his bidding, or are alien creatures that began to worship Cthulhu when they encountered him during his travels in space. Some have suggested they maybe are shape shifters, and they took on the likeness of their ruler. But Cthulhu being a Star Spawn isn't one of them.

[@damianarvizu1095]

I believe that there is a Medusa short story from Lovecraft: Medusa’s Coil. However she doesn’t work exactly like the Greek myth

[@miskatonicjanitor2902]

Amazing video

[@spockjenkins365]

this helps immensely! mmahalo sandy.......

[@SpectrumDT]

This video essay seems to contain a lot of Petersen canon. Many of the facts you cite seem dubious to me. At least I would like to know your sources. 1. Who says that Hastur is a Great Old One? August Derleth does, but you reject other claims of his. 2. Who says that the King in Yellow is an avatar of Hastur? Certainly not Chambers nor Lovecraft. I don't think Derleth says it either. I don't know any source for this idea that predates the CoC RPG. Is this Petersen canon? 3. Who says that the star-spawn are not Great Old Ones? For that matter, where does the name "star-spawn" (for Cthulhu's race) come from? 4. Where does the term "Outer Gods" come from? Does it predate the RPG? 5. What stories by Lovecraft mention Bast or Bastet? 6. Why do you think "The Dunwich Horror" says Yog-Sothoth is a Great Old One? It says that Yog-Sothoth knows the Old Ones, not that he is one of them.

[@DeadManSinging1]

All other HPL references I find called Cthulhu's race the Cthulhi. "Starspawn" seems to be a different race entirely. I've always seen Yog-Sothorth referred to as an Outer God

[@ToddHimself]

Thats all well and good Sandy, but which one of these things is best at giving kisses!?

[@SandyofCthulhu]

Gugs

[@WarDogMadness]

from what ive read the vanir were worshiped in the countryside of noway even up to the Christianisation of the norse lands in the later 1000ad. nodens struck me as Manannán mac Lir a isle of man god.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

By themselves though? I mean I know some of the Norse Gods were straight-up Vanir anyway, like Freya. Nodens is the name the god was known as by British Celts. Nuada is the Irish version of his name, and he was called Nud in Wales. Mannanan I don't know if he's also Nodens, but at some point the gods tend to overlap. Like the way the Greeks thought that Thoth was Hermes.

[@WarDogMadness]

@@SandyofCthulhu yes freya and feryr njord were vanir , narethus and tyr maybe might have be.i gree that a lot of ancient gods could be at least one outer god in the mythos there a great robert e howard story were Odin is one and is defeated at the battle of Clontarf. then later a archaeologist /cultist free him. i think it one brain mak morn story something on the kern. i think it was called. yeah we have Gwyn ap Nudd in wales .

[@dubuyajay9964]

05:00. REH did a Lovecraftian horror story with Odin.

[@HankCallahan-y7p]

Maybe each great old one is the most powerful possible member of any sapient species

[@Orlyrly]

Just picked up Call of Cthulhu and I'm going to be getting some miniatures to play with and when I can afford it, a bunch of yours! Was curious if you had any suggestions on how/when to incorporate them?

[@SandyofCthulhu]

Call of Cthulhu isn't heavily combat-oriented, but there are still times when it's highly-useful to know where you are in relationship to the bad guys. Example: say your players are trying to break up a coven ritual. Place a few cultist figures and a high priest on your tabletop, showing them gathered around a campfire (use a cotton ball). Then as the players sneak in from behind, suddenly you pull out a great big Dark Young figure rising up from the fire. Other uses for figures are simply to answer questions "Am I near the monolith?" "Where is the elephant?" "Can I get to the door without going too near the Hound of Tindalos?" A third use for figures is to terrify the players. Yes imagination is a great thing, but also sometimes just physically plopping Rhan-Tegoth onto the tabletop is pretty effective on the players. Fun for the whole group.

[@Orlyrly]

@@SandyofCthulhu thanks alot! Really enjoying the call of cthulhu books, thanks for saving them from an unloving environment hahaha

[@jasonsantos3037]

Curious about the gods from Robert E Howard Being well they have any connections with the Great ones and elder gods.

[@qwertyb18]

I feel like I'm in a fever dream of lore; so if Cthulhu "can't open the door himself" is Yog Sothoth literally the gate to initiate an apocalypse or is that deathstar Ghroth supposed to wake him up?

[@AgentHarris-ww1sy]

Cyaegha is Harley Quinn/Gracie Bon

[@AgentHarris-ww1sy]

u must be this tall to attack the city lol

[@forestjohnson7474]

@sandyofcuthlu i have a vs match for you, I would like your input...please. Leviathan and the cenobites from hellraiser vs Nurgle and his minions from Warhammer40k? A starting point, Leviathan has a sizable group of cinobites from the comics from the modern-to-future hell, when hell has become ordered, making Leviathan and the cenobites natural enemies of the choas god Nurgle and his creations. Nurgle has the full force of the Death Guard, including Mortarian and Typhon, as well demon engines, pox walkers, and plauge bearers of Nurgle. The fight begins in the labyrinth.

[@unperson5713]

Third!

[@therevenger259]

first.

[@SandyofCthulhu]

whoa, is this a thing now?

[@therevenger259]

@@SandyofCthulhu always has been.