Elected for Comfort

The Biblical teaching of election to salvation is full of comfort, but as Paul acknowledges in Romans (9-11), must be handled with great care for it to have the intended purpose of comforting afflicted and troubled Christians.
The Lutheran fathers took up this challenge in 1577 when they published the Formula of Concord.
In the summary of the 11th article, they take up the teaching in 20 paragraphs. You can read the text here: Formula of Concord, Epitome XI
bookofconcord.org/formula-of-...
A long discussion, but well worth the work, is here: Formula of Concord, Solid Delcaration XI
bookofconcord.org/formula-of-...

[@lc-mschristian5717]

As an ex Calvinist, I appreciate this clear and comforting teaching . God's peace

[@BrianJuntunen]

Calvanism made so much sense to me at one time. Now, this makes better sense.

[@gracealone11]

My wife asked me, “Are you listening to Jeff Goldblum discussing theology?!?!” Now I can’t not hear Jeff Goldblum…

[@Taragon630]

Yes!, you are right. Bryan's vocal intonations, are eerily similar. Your wife has a very sharp ear.

[@JoshuaFry83]

"Salvation, uh, finds a way"

[@AarmOZ84]

And I met Jeff Goldblum so the connection is even stronger for me.

[@AarmOZ84]

I spent the last 10 years trying to understand this stuff and you explained it better in less than 30 minutes.

[@Dilley_G45]

So glad we got you and "Ask the Pastor" and "Justandsinner" and "higher things". May God bring a conservative confessional Lutheran Church to us in New Zealand....or make the one here more conservative. It's sad we have to attend a reformed church service to get a good liturgical experience...but then have to ignore the calvinist part and the anti Christmas and Easter service attitude. And we can't have communion

[@mattschubert3262]

Hi Ben, I'm part of the LCANZ -- I'm over here in Western Australia. I haven't visited NZ, but I wonder if the Lutheran churches of NZ looks similar to the Lutheran churches in WA (we're quite small also). For me, it's important to be theologically confessional, but I don't expect a conservative liturgical service in every sense -- only the most important bits. I hope you can find a Lutheran Church you're happy to commune in soon. Matt

[@Dilley_G45]

@@mattschubert3262 hope we get a more traditional one soon. If they start allowing women pastors then it's over. Shouldn't even bring that up to vote every time. Lutherans say Sola scriptura so there is no reason we should get soft on this or any other issue where the Bible is clear...shame that we have to look to the reformed churches for a more biblical experience while they have the nonbiblical doctrine of calvinism and a different view of communion besides having not even a cross in their churches

[@lukeunderwood163]

@@mattschubert3262 If you are looking for a more conservative, liturgical service then you should visit St John's (although you probably already know that). I have been a member there for only a few months but I get the feeling its probably the most liturgical service you will get in Western Australia from the LCA

[@doriesse824]

Hi Dilley, what is the Lutheran response to the anti-Christmas and Easter celebration idea? So many reformed are saying those holidays are Pagan or even Satanic in origin. Some are even making it a salvation issue.

[@SeanusAurelius]

@@doriesse824 I don't know about the Lutheran response, but I have found it helpful to point out that in pretty much every European language, the name of Easter is Pascha (i.e. Passover), except English. The English name actually is named after a pagan goddess (Eostre), according to Bede (the only primary source on where the word came from), so why not meet them halfway and call it Resurrection Sunday? After that, it's a Romans 14 issue. Now, Christmas.... Romans 14 is the best you'll get, I would think.

[@tiletutor2412]

I could listen to this all day cuz You sound like Jeff Goldblum. The wonderfully simplified and articulate teaching is a bonus too.

[@utubeskreename9516]

Jeff Goldblum! Lol. Yes. Holy cow! Now, I can't escape hearing it. Lol

[@chriszugmaier6603]

that was great!.your illustrations crack me up too

[@user-nj1rc9hk4h]

Thank you, p. Bryan.

[@SuZW51]

Pastor, my adult Sunday school class just addressed this subject as we have been studying other Christian denominations, other than our ELCA Lutheran branch. I am going to rewatch this video. There is SO much in it! Thank you for making a somewhat difficult subject understandable. May the Lord continue to bless this ministry.

[@SwissOnZ]

Thank you. Much insight gleamed from the lecture.

[@br.m]

When the shepherd calls, all the sheep will hear but the ones who do not know his voice will run away. The sheep who know his voice will come and follow him.

[@calebhickerson]

As I listen to this while working, I realize that Pastor Wolfmueller is the Lutheran Jeff Goldblum.

[@gracealone11]

I know, right!?!?

[@katym.8250]

This is such clear teaching. Very helpful! Thank you.

[@nicholasglassburn7453]

Most illuminating dive into election I’ve come across in all my searching. I’m an Anglican and adore the theology of many Anglicans, but why leave to “mystery” what can be illuminated by God’s Word with a little thought and attention. The Lord bless you, your family, and your church body.

[@RobertBrown-vf8yd]

This was a good message to hear. I feel more hopeful.

[@kensey007]

These note cards provide a very fun video format. Great idea.

[@markpriebbenow8866]

Thankyou for putting in the effort to explain it in simple terms. Verry helpful. Thankyou.

[@gregaguirre6213]

Some things are arrived at thru the Hand of Christ over one’s life - arriving at things by virtue of God’s patient movement of the experience despite the rational and/or human disposition- having all my life insisting on an Arminian understanding of salvation- Christ unwilling that I should triumph thereby, led me to finally listen not so much about what others have said concerning Luther, nor only Luther alone on Christ- but what God demonstrated in History the The Elector’s Dream of Frederick the Wise the night before Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses on the chapel Door- Then seeing the unfolding, not as either coincidence, or one man’s view, but rather as sent by God- then I opened my heart enough to Listen to what God said thru Luther- while at the same time my life reached out to Christ Alone- Faith became Jesus’ hand lifting me up upon this understanding. Now being able to share this with my Sons, Pastor I ask your continued work- many prayers to God for you Greg in Los Angeles🙏🏽✝️🕊️

[@jeffhein7275]

God be praised!

[@davpp239]

Thank you, pastor Wolfmueller, for this wonderful explanation

[@dnzswithwombats]

Yes! Deuteronomy 29:29 (Berean Study Bible): "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law."

[@villarrealmarta6103]

Paul’s doxology in Romans 11 puts it all in its proper place

[@thekantor1964]

Thank God

[@LB-rw6hz]

This is a great video! I enjoy learning about the Bible and Lutheran doctrine from your videos!

[@user-dt6cj8ji7v]

This video was so very helpful! We are so enjoying your teaching! Thank you for your faithfulness to God’s Word!

[@dnzswithwombats]

This is very helpful - thank you! Ephesians 1 is in the appointed readings this up-coming Sunday, July 11, 2021. We have guest preachers all summer at the two churches I attend. Based on the pattern of preaching at these churches this summer so far, they will not touch on any of this at either church. So, this is especially good to learn here, since our churches preach on the shallow end and in-person Bible studies are not happening. Thanks!

[@dnzswithwombats]

It turned out that the preaching was about Ephesians 1, but it blew off any real rigor at all - very shallow. It just was vague and nebulous and the preaching was based off of "The Message" Bible. Ugh.

[@user-df3nj1ev6c]

The best explained teaching I ever heard on subject

[@froisablay7922]

awesome.

[@markbraco7593]

Remember we can all pick and choose

[@markbraco7593]

Church teaches, keep Christ on his cross

[@angloaust1575]

Is45v7 shows the sovereignity of god!

[@villarrealmarta6103]

I like the dolphin illustration. I would add that it is hidden in the heart but made manifest through actions. Like Jesus said: “ a tree is known by its fruit”

[@luisasterioquerubin6829]

It's smazing (His grace)!

[@szezhicheng658]

I need a stronger explanation for Rejection #4 in relation to the Arminian version of Conditional Corporate Election.

[@richardmullins6735]

Thank you for explaining this without having to explain middle knowledge as well. Both ways work for me, but you use more scripture which I prefer.

[@judithtaylor6713]

That was very helpful. I took your comment on Jesus being the Book of Life as the central theme from which all other discussion flowed. Oh! God IS Great. Thank you for your faithful and most steadfast ministry. We appreciate all you do.

[@markbraco7593]

Sorry to thos who have not a relationship with the Father

[@mikeduke8932]

Thanks, pastor. I think I understand what Article 11 tries to flush out but it’s very confusing. It seems at times Luther is teaching stoicism and piety to drown out indifference? Article 11 generally leaves me scratching my head. Thanks for your work.

[@mattschubert3262]

Where can I buy those cool highlighters you have?

[@nicholasglassburn7453]

Where can I find more on that beautiful line “all theology is spiritual warfare,” I’ve searched everywhere.

[@caseyshellenberger7011]

Hi Pastor! I have a question. Do Dogs/Cats/pets all go to Heaven? Thank you!

[@deveugene7]

I always feel sad when I hear Calvinist theologians talk about the Sovereignty of God in this context. Consider that Romans 11 passage that Pastor W goes through right at the end of this video. If you believe in double predestination that passage means something far different. What kind of God would predestine people for eternal punishment and only pretend to call them by the gospel? That's monstrous. Yes, God is sovereign. But he is not the author of evil.

[@graydomn]

You don't have to embrace double predestination in order to embrace the beauty of God's sovereignty.

[@angloaust1575]

Is45v7

[@juliebless7119]

@@angloaust1575 Heb8v6

[@lorenzell3104]

He has this so jacked up, it's mot even funny. Saying that all are elected is completely contradictory to many texts. See Roman's 9:14-23.

[@MrGassemann]

«What the heck?! Show me the Bible»😂👍

[@joroland]

"Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe.' Why am I not surprised?: as with Luther, all others who don't agree are of 'another spirit'; i.e. outside the pale of orthodoxy. How can we make our disagreements productive rather than divisive?

[@larrygdaniel]

How can I get a copy of your notes?

[@HighWideandHandsome]

I think you meant "Secret _counsel_ of God", Pastor.

[@travist7777]

...still lost and confused..

[@mathewlowrey2734]

The simplest way to understand this, for me, is that the doctrine of election is really just the doctrine of monergism. Meaning, Christ gif does all the work of justification for us. We don’t do anything for our justification. This should be a comfort, as this teaching frees us (as does all gospel), from self justification. How am I justified, a miserable sinner and enemy of god, who cannot seek spiritual goodness of my own accord?? I’m justified by Christ. Through faith and his work, both as a gracious gift. It’s so much not any of my doing, it’s so much of gods doing, that he ordained it from before I even “was” (that last part is the doctrines of election). And thank god my justification relies in wise upon me, for surely I would fail, as I always do, to be in anyway righteous, and thus I would fail. The ultimate ans simole lesson of the gospel, of which the doctrine of election is a part, is that you shoid look outside yourself for salvation…you shoid look to Christ. Rest In Christ. Be comforted by Christ. Be assured, by his work word and promises, not by your work, feelings, or effort, or worry. Alll the other stuff about an election or predestination to damnation, is not biblical, so don’t even worry about it. The Wird of Gid reveals repeatedly, unambiguously, and forcefully, that his will is that all should be saved. That he died for the sins of the whole world, that he is not the author of sin, the he takes no pleasure in the death of a wicked man, the he so loved the world, that he gave his only son for all of the world. Etc. Election, just means, that In Christ Jesus, your salvation and mine, has been gods work and design from the foundations of time. It doesn’t mean anything more or less comforting that that. If pondering election, brings any discomfort, lay it down, and trust that God did not promise us he saved us from eternity in His Son, to make us confused or worry. It is a comfort. If it it is a difficult comfort to understand, then set the teaching down for now, and dwell richly in other facets of the gospel, of good news and comfort for you, and me. In no way, is the doctrine of election meant for our worry or confusion.

[@seaquistk]

I wish my writing was as good as yours...

[@stephenpropps9925]

I think that last portion of the quote from Calvin is his attempt to explain apostasy. It is what some have termed "evanescent grace."

[@joroland]

So, at 20:29 P. Bryan complains about the 'external call' and the 'special call' of Calvin. How does this comport with Luther's bondage of the will? That is, in this book, Luther argues: people can achieve salvation or redemption only through God, and could not choose between good and evil through their own willpower. It would seem that Luther's bondage of the will requires a special call by God which enables man to respond to Him; i.e., faith is a free gift of grace.

[@sherrirushman3935]

Not Ahhh, but Ooh!

[@graydomn]

The warnings against apostasy are real and the elect will heed them...

[@mathewlowrey2734]

Yes. But it’s important to note why/how, the elect will persevere. Election is a doctrine of gospel. It is good news to the Ephesians and us. It stresses ans teaches that we, have so little to do with our own salvation that the matter was settled by before the foundations of the earth. IN CHRIST, we are elect. God FORENEW us. Not about us. Not some fact about us, merely, but knew us before we were. Before we even WERE, god “knew us”, and predestined us to what? To be conformed to Christ. And those he also called, and justified, and glorified…IN VIEW OF CHRIST. Let us not forget He also foreknew and destined Christ die for the sins of the world. Christ is PLAN A, for salvation. So this os a comfort. My salvation is destined in Christ. It’s Christ’s work. Even as many as we’re ordained to eternal life, believed. We were first ordained, to eternal life in Christ, before we even believed. Our belief itself, is a gift of Christ. So, how does perseverance come into this doctrine? The elect will heed the warnings, because apostasy is a real danger. But why will the elect preservers? Is it becaue we are elect? Yes. But again, who are the elect? What defines this group? This group was foreknown, then destined to conformity with Christ in glory, then called, justified, and glorified. How does he call us? By his Word. How does he justify us? By his Christ’s death and our faith, given to us by word and sacrament. How does he glorify us (sanctification)? He nourishes us in his word, and sacrament, and establishes the church, incorporating us into Christ’s Body, and growing us in conformity to him, by his gift of the Holy Spirit, dwelling in us, regenerating ourselves into slaves to Christ’s will, and finally, in the glorification with Christ eternally in the new heavens and new earth. So we can see, that the elect will persevere, by means! By what means? His means established fir us, his church, his sacraments, his word, the spirit. But if we cut ourselves off from those means, leave church, shun the sacraments, dwell not in the word, scoff at the spirit, etc, we have to very real possibility of making shipwreck of our faith, and thus our salvation. The warnings are real, ans yes, by gods gracious MEANS, he preserves his elect who will indeed, heed his warnings. What we should not think, when we say “the elect will persevere, is something like that no matter what the elect do, they will persevere. The key is to be, or remain in Christ. Which is his doing for us. That is who is elect. Those who are in Christ. The key as always, is Christ.

[@graydomn]

@@mathewlowrey2734 Election by foreknowledge is incompatible with the Book of Concord.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

@@graydomn no, election based upon god fore knowing our righteousness, or our “decision”, or our something good or preferable about us, is incompatible with the book of concord. But the scriptures clearly state that “those whom god foreknew….” What that scripture means, what it says, is this: What did godforeknow? Well, it doesn’t say he knew anything in particular about us, that sentence says he foreknew US. Like as god knew the prophet from before he knitted him together in the womb. This statement means he ordained the elect unto salvation, before we even were. Your quite right, he didn’t elect us unto salvation based upon foreknowledge of our good or something. But he did foreknew us, such that he could elect us. He knew whom he was electing, even though they were not yet. If you read what I said, I didn’t not say anything about an election based upon foreknowledge in the sense of say, a molinist. But you also can’t tear the word foreknew out of the doctrine of election, Paul quite clearly teaches that those whom he foreknew, he destined.

[@graydomn]

@@mathewlowrey2734 Wolfmueller is right about foreknowledge.

[@DEADn1]

Would it be correct to say that though God has foreknowledge he doesn't ordain ALL things to happen but they happen because of the hearts of men and the laws of nature? And through the generations He will move certain pieces into certain places for HIs own Will but allows life to grow according to the laws He has established...if that make any sense?

[@mathete9968]

Great question. Calvinists love to jump onto Luther's words in "The Bondage of the Will" , P. 317, James Clark & Co - Edition. Where he says "God FOREORDAINS ALL THINGS" It is widely debated in fact what Luther meant. I say two things: - Sola Scriptura first of all. Sadly Luther makes no appeal to Scripture here on P 317 - What was THE SENSE (Nehemiah 8:8) Of Luther here ? To find this we must compare "Luther with Luther" And to do this we compare Luther's words in his own commentary on Romans. Both his preface and his section in Pre-destination in Romans 8. - Luther only teaches the Predestination of the elect in Romans 8 - Luther points all mankind to the ORDER of Romans in his precfave before we can understand Predestination. There is no double predestination in Luther ! But to return to Sola Scriptura...we determine doctrine by Scripture Alone not Luther and not any man

[@user-dt6cj8ji7v]

Could you please do a video on how Lutheranism differs from Calvinism? We have a friend who thinks that Lutheranism sounds like Calvin.

[@markbraco7593]

The Holy Spirit tells me to walk as Christ

[@mathete9968]

Wolfmuller POINT Answered (19:35): "I do not know how this fits into the Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints" Calvin is here alluding to his own attempt to expound Hebrews 6:4-6 in his commentary on the book of Hebrews. Oddly enough, Calvin's explanation of this passage is strangely akin to both Walther and Pieper. But all three are in error here. Muller in his dogmatics hints at this, pointing out that the correct exposition of Hebrews 6:4-6 is a matter of exegesis and hints that the previous attempts to expound it fell because of failure to exegete the text. Now Hebrews 6:4-6 MUST be expounded according to: - The Rules of Grammar (1 Peter 4:11; Nehemiah 8:8) - The Rule of Faith (Romans 12:6) The first half involves 5 aorist indicative substantives (ie Past Tense ..."Verbal Labels") The second half involves one present tense infinitive and 2 present tense , temporal adverbial participles. The Adverbial participles modify the present tense infinite verb "To be RENEWING" Translation: For it is impossible for those: - Once enlightened and - Have tasted the heavenly gift and - Were made partakers of the heavenly gift, and - Tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the coming age, and - Fell away / became Tresspassers To be renewing them again ti Repentance WHILE .... - They keep on crucifying to themselves the Son of God anew and - Putting Him to open shame. Thus, Calvin, wrestling with his peculiar doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" views Hebrews 6:4-6 as a special category of hardened persons who fell away. Calvin does correctly state, as does Pieper and Walther , that those alarmed over their sin are not finally hardened . But it is important to note that Hebrews 6:4-6 which is a direct allusion to Ezekiel 18:24 where a parallel case is given. Ezekiel 18:24 even uses the root verb for "fall away" / "trespassed" in the LXX seen in the participle cognate in Hebrews 6:6. Abd it is clear that those who "fell away" in Ezekiel 18 and 33 could be renewed again to repentance (See also James 5:19, 20) So the "IMPOSSIBILITY" in Hebrews 6:4 is RELATIVE and NOT ABSOLUTE. This is consistent with passages such as Zechariah 7:11,12 and 2 Chronicles 36:15, 16 And of course such passages as Ezekiel 33:10, 11 And especially Isaiah 59:1, 2 "Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

[@markbraco7593]

If I speck the truth and it offends some. How is it then we walk behind Christ?

[@willy9204]

pastor I've been watching a lot of Lutheran sermons lately and noticed that none of them use KJV which is my preferred version why is that? is it a norm in Lutheran lcms churches?

[@johnmarquardt1991]

LCMS uses the ESV.

[@johnhouchins3156]

@@johnmarquardt1991 LCMS PREFERS the ESV. Lutheran Pastors (confessional ones at least) are trained in the languages of the Bible so that they can read the texts without having to rely on translations. Generally, speaking, the translations are for lay people. There's a great new translation available now called the Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV). It's a great read!

[@brycepatties]

@@johnhouchins3156 I think it is fair to say the "LCMS" uses the ESV. Individual pastors may use whatever translation they prefer, including their own, but in general, when the synod says something and references Scripture, they will usually quote the ESV.

[@hollinsd]

Do elections also include divine assignments? As an example, the Body has many parts. The Lord Himself sets elections and places people where He wants them in the assigned positions. I believe this is the same for eternity. Free will and election are not mutually exclusive, or are they?

[@hanna762]

Jesus Christ is the Book of Life.

[@richardmullins6735]

I heard that said. Is it in the Bible? Just curious. Thanks

[@hanna762]

@@richardmullins6735 Pastor Wolfmueller said this in his Video and i liked it. I have never thought about it this way. Jesus said: I have written your name in the palms of my hands.

[@richardmullins6735]

Thank you!!

[@riogrande1840]

I don't understand how the "single predestination" doctrine is distinguished from "double predestination." If God determines who will be saved, and this choosing has nothing to do with anything specific to the individuals chosen, does it not necessarily follow that God also chooses who will not be saved?

[@MrJeb123]

I think that's the point of the last set of verses he showed (Romains 11:33-36). In this case we cannot make logical sense of it or see the difference. Instead of trying to make logical sense out of the doctrine the verse is saying to just rejoice that we are saved and leave the thinking to God. Though I will admit this is easier said than done, but its what God revealed to us and we just make due with what we are given.

[@riogrande1840]

@@MrJeb123 Okay, even if we're not supposed to try to make logical sense of it (not sure that makes sense, but leaving that aside), what is the difference between the "single" and "double" predestination concepts?

[@au7-721]

A Lutheran Pastor recently told me that as Lutherans they sprinkle infants and then grow by grace into salvation. I don't know Lutheran Church doctrine but this is what he told me. I do not find that anywhere in the Scriptures.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

This is not confessional Lutheran doctrine. They do baptize infants, but they do not believe in “growing into salvation”. They believe that salvation/justification, is by faith, through grace. Why they baptize infants is a long explanation, but it is biblically sound, snd was the practice of the church for millennia all the way back to the book of acts. For confessional Lutherans, and other little o orthodox Christians, baptism is a “means of grace” and it, baptism is a work of Christ, not man. The man or infant is doing no work in being baptized, neither is the pastor or church eleders. The work, being done in baptism, is done by Christ, through his word and the water. Baptism, and also the Word of God (the gospel), and also the Eucharist, are all means, or ways by which, Christ imparts faith to man. So, Lutheran ms believe that an infant can have faith, as so also they believe a severely mentally impaired adult can have faith, so also they believe that as you sleep or lay in a coma, you have faith, so as they believe that John the Baptist had faith in his lord IN UTERO, when he flipped in Elizabeth’s womb at the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus. There is no biblical demand that Faith be somehow articulable, of even self understood. We are taught in fact, that the faith of a child is pure. Infants have faith in their mothers arms, at her breast, at the sound of her voice. So too, that can (and do) posses saving faith, so long as it be graced to them by Christ. A grown person in no wise is more able to have faith than an infant, because in no wise is a mature person any more able to obtain spiritual goodness of his own account, than a baby. In all cases, man, woman, infant, invalid, faith is solely a gift, solely the work of Christ. Likewise, a baby does not choose to be born in the first birth, and as baptism is a spiritual rebirth inlike manner there need not be any “choice” in the matter of their second birth. Likewise, no adult of his own account chooses to be baptized, but is called to baptism by the Word. So yes, Lutherans baptize their infants, as Christ called us to baptize all nations, in his name, for the forgiveness of their sins, snd their spiritual rebirth. At the moment they have faith, infants (and anyone of any age), are justified. Before god they are righteous, in Christ. They do not grow into salvation. Now, infants, like all Christians, Grow in sanctification. They nature in their faith, because Christ has graciously ordained fir them to have faithful mothers and fathers, teachers and pastors, and the church, and most importantly the gift of the spirit, ehich are all graciously and effectual means god has ordained for the nourishment and sanctification of his elect in Christ.

[@au7-721]

@@mathewlowrey2734 Thanks for the explaination. I completely disagree according to Scripture but believe you are a brother in Christ. I did enjoy your Bible lesson and appreciate your taking the time to respond. I plan on watching more of your videos and may God bless you.

[@au7-721]

@@mathewlowrey2734 Brother I strongly agree that the moment we have faith we are justified.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

@@au7-721 thank you brother. A note: even though I have responded quite a lot to peole on this thread, I am not the owner of the page or the author of the content/video posted. I watch Pastor Wolfmueller quite a bit, and confess the same faith as outlined in the Book of Concord, but I’m just an internet commenter, interested in this topic/thread, same as you. Have a blessed day! Yours in Christ,

[@au7-721]

@@mathewlowrey2734 My bad.

[@srice6231]

This is an old post so you might not see my question but I will try anyway. It seems to me your interpretation of Romans 9:22-24 isn't the plain reading because isn't the potter who prepared the vessels God our Creator? Your description sounds as if God only created those who are elected. I am very confused!

[@awake3083]

He didn’t say that. We all are called, but by our own actions we refuse our invitation to the “wedding feast”. God wishes for all to be saved but the heart of the sinful man prevents this.

[@jonhester8909]

Is it therefore impossible to be Lutheran and a Calvinist? I do believe in election, but what about God hardening Pharaoh's heart? Choosing Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau? It would seem to suggest that God's grace is just for the elect. I've listened to RC Sproul and Jeff Durbin on this particular topic and each gave a convincing argument. I ask because I'm a former Charismatic. I used to be 100% Arminian. Last year I watched American Gospel and everything changed. I left my church and started attending a Lutheran Church. The more I study the word, the more I see the teaching of John Calvin making sense. At the end of the day, I just want to know the truth. I spent so many years in deception, and it's hard to know which doctrine is right.

[@danielwhitaker5445]

Keep digging around within Wolfemeullers very useful resources as he's addressed your question in depth -- God's Peace and Mercies be with you!

[@mathewlowrey2734]

So, a couple of things, Jacob over Easau, is a teaching that God shoes favor on whom he wills. Esau is the oldest, according to custom and humanity entitled to the blessing. But God used Jacob (not because Deserved it). This is a teaching about gentiles being saved, where referenced in the New Testament. In its original context, it’s a story about Grace and gods will, he uses Jacob’s deceptions nonetheless to bring about the promises of salvation, rather than stick to some convention about eldest vs younger. This is a story about God working all things to his purposes, and his ways not being our ways. We often read that he story as “shoud I be like Jacob or Esau). Or, we over read it to be an explanation of double predestination - but it’s only a lesson on election into damnation if you first important such a lesson into scripture. There is no clear teaching, no outright teaching of election into damnation from the beginning of time, for us to read that into the Jacob/Essau story. Jacob and Esau is about a billion stories long of God doing things according to his design, not our expectations - he brings salvation out of an enslaved people, he hardens them most powerful kings heart to wrest his slave people free, he comes to us as a poor Nazarene, he is crucified into shame (which is his glory). Etc etc. Pharaoh was offered many chances. The most important thing to remember about a suooosed election into damnation, is that it directly contradicts about a million other clear passages about god will being for all to come to salvation. Forcing the theologian who holds to an election of damnation into theorizing that this will is somehow not effectual, not gods “real” will, that god is deceptive. The reason they do this, is because there is a clear teaching of a. Sovereignty, and B. Election into salvation. The logical inference must be an election into damnation right? That’s the implication, except that the opposite is taught. The theologian must teach the scripture, not our logical inferential outgrowths.

[@Josh_Antikainen]

The eleventh article (and others) of the Formula of Concord makes it clear that Lutherans cannot be Calvinists. Paragraphs 84-86 of the eleventh article in the Solid Declaration address God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

@@IronPoorBlood 75 And since our election to eternal life is founded not upon our godliness or virtue, but alone upon the merit of Christ and the gracious will of His Father, who cannot deny Himself, because He is unchangeable in will and essence, therefore, when His children depart from obedience and stumble, He has them called again to repentance through the Word, and the Holy Ghost wishes thereby to be efficacious in them for conversion; and when they turn to Him again in true repentance by a right faith, He will always manifest the old paternal heart to all those who tremble at His Word and from their heart turn again to Him, as it is written, Jer. 3:1: If a man put away his wife, and she go from him and become another man’s, shall he return unto her again? Shall not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to Me, saith the Lord. 76 Moreover, the declaration, John 6:44, that no one can come to Christ except the Father draw him, is right and true. However, the Father will not do this without means, but has ordained for this purpose His Word and Sacraments as ordinary means and instruments; and it is the will neither of the Father nor of the Son that a man should not hear or should despise the preaching of His Word, and wait for the drawing of the Father without the Word and Sacraments. For the Father draws indeed by the power of His Holy Ghost, however, according to His usual order [the order decreed and instituted by Himself], by the hearing of His holy, divine Word, as with a net, by which the elect are plucked from the jaws of the devil. 77 Every poor sinner should therefore repair thereto [to holy preaching], hear it attentively, and not doubt the drawing of the Father. For the Holy Ghost will be with His Word in His power, and work by it; and that is the drawing of the Father. 78 But the reason why not all who hear it believe, and some are therefore condemned the more deeply [eternally to severer punishments], is not because God had begrudged them their salvation; but it is their own fault, as they have heard the Word in such a manner as not to learn, but only to despise, blaspheme, and disgrace it, and have resisted the Holy Ghost, who through the Word wished to work in them, as was the case at the time of Christ with the Pharisees and their adherents. 79 Hence the apostle distinguishes with especial care the work of God, who alone makes vessels of honor, and the work of the devil and of man, who by the instigation of the devil, and not of God, has made himself a vessel of dishonor. For thus it is written, Rom. 9:22f : God endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory. 80 Here, then, the apostle clearly says that God endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath, but does not say that He made them vessels of wrath; for if this had been His will, He would not have required any great long-suffering for it. The fault, however, that they are fitted for destruction belongs to the devil and to men themselves, and not to God. 81 For all preparation for condemnation is by the devil and man, through sin, and in no respect by God, who does not wish that any man be damned; how, then, should He Himself prepare any man for condemnation? For as God is not a cause of sins, so, too, He is no cause of punishment, of damnation; but the only cause of damnation is sin; for the wages of sin is death, Rom. 6:23. And as God does not will sin, and has no pleasure in sin, so He does not wish the death of the sinner either, Ezek. 33:11, nor has He pleasure in his condemnation. For He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3:9. So, too, it is written in Ezek. 18:23; 33:11: As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. 82 And St. Paul testifies in clear words that from vessels of dishonor vessels of honor may be made by God’s power and working, when he writes thus, 2 Tim. 2:21: If a man, therefore, purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified and meet for the Master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. For he who is to purge himself must first have been unclean, and hence a vessel of dishonor. But concerning the vessels of mercy he says clearly that the Lord Himself has prepared them for glory, which he does not say concerning the damned, who themselves, and not God, have prepared themselves as vessels of damnation. 83 Moreover, it is to be diligently considered that when God punishes sin with sins, that is, when He afterwards punishes with obduracy and blindness those who had been converted, because of their subsequent security, impenitence, and wilful sins, this should not be interpreted to mean that it never had been God’s good pleasure that such persons should come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. For both these facts are God’s revealed will: First, that God will receive into grace all who repent and believe in Christ. Secondly, that He also will punish those who wilfully turn away from the holy commandment, and again entangle themselves in the filth of the world, 2 Pet. 2:20, and garnish their hearts for Satan, Luke 11:25f , and do despite unto the Spirit of God, Heb. 10:29, and that they shall be hardened, blinded, and eternally condemned if they persist therein. 84 Accordingly, even Pharaoh (of whom it is written, Ex. 9:16; Rom. 9:17: In very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth) perished, not because God had begrudged him salvation, or because it had been His good pleasure that he should be damned and lost. For God is not willing that any should perish, 2 Pet. 3:9; He also has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live, Ezek. 33:11. 85 But that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, namely, that Pharaoh always sinned again and again, and became the more obdurate, the more he was admonished, that was a punishment of his antecedent sin and horrible tyranny, which in many and manifold ways he practised inhumanly and against the accusations of his heart towards the children of Israel. And since God caused His Word to be preached and His will to be proclaimed to him, and Pharaoh nevertheless wilfully reared up straightway against all admonitions and warnings, God withdrew His hand from him, and thus his heart became hardened and obdurate, and God executed His judgment upon him; for he was guilty of nothing else than hell-fire. 86 Accordingly, the holy apostle also introduces the example of Pharaoh for no other reason than to prove by it the justice of God which He exercises towards the impenitent and despisers of His Word; by no means, however, has he intended or understood it to mean that God begrudged salvation to him or any person, but had so ordained him to eternal damnation in His secret counsel that he should not be able, or that it should not be possible for him, to be saved. 87 By this doctrine and explanation of the eternal and saving choice [predestination] of the elect children of God His own glory is entirely and fully given to God, that in Christ He saves us out of pure [and free] mercy, without any merits or good works of ours, according to the purpose of His will, as it is written Eph. 1:5f : Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved. 88 Therefore it is false and wrong [conflicts with the Word of God] when it is taught that not alone the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but that also in us there is a cause of God’s election, on account of which God has chosen us to eternal life. For not only before we had done anything good, but also before we were born, yea, even before the foundations of the world were laid, He elected us in Christ; and that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger; as it is written concerning this matter, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated, Rom. 9:11ff.; Gen. 25:23; Mal. 1:2f. 89 Moreover, this doctrine gives no one a cause either for despondency or for a shameless, dissolute life, namely, when men are taught that they must seek eternal election in Christ and His holy Gospel, as in the Book of Life, which excludes no penitent sinner, but beckons and calls all the poor, heavy-laden, and troubled sinners [who are disturbed by the sense of God’s wrath], to repentance and the knowledge of their sins and to faith in Christ, and promises the Holy Ghost for purification and renewal, 90 and thus gives the most enduring consolation to all troubled, afflicted men, that they know that their salvation is not placed in their own hands,-for otherwise they would lose it much more easily than was the case with Adam and Eve in paradise, yea, every hour and moment,-but in the gracious election of God, which He has revealed to us in Christ, out of whose hand no man shall pluck us, John 10:28; 2 Tim. 2:19. 91 Accordingly, if any one presents the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot derive comfort from it, but are thereby incited to despair, or that the impenitent are confirmed in their wantonness, it is undoubtedly sure and true that such a doctrine is taught, not according to the Word and will of God, but according to [the blind judgment of human] reason and the instigation of the devil.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

@@IronPoorBlood some calvinists would reject that articles’ rejection of an election unto damnation.

[@joroland]

Sad, that at 25:24, the Scripture teaching on ELECTION should end in humble worship to our glorious God and Savior. Sad because the picture in heaven is that of the ransomed from EVERY tribe and language and people and nation [making] them a kingdom and priests to our God. Again, how can we not draw lines that divide, how can we avoid making this discussion US vs. THEM? Could the presentation say, this is how we understand it and this is how others understand the same thing; and leave it at that?! The us-verses-them thing suggests 'we are right, and everyone else, is wrong'. I, do believe in orthodoxy and adhere to the great Creeds of Christendom. So, a good defense of truth is appropriate: is there a balance? We've been doing this for c. 2000 years and are as fractured as ever.

[@1920s]

The single most difficult Lutheran doctrine for me to understand.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

Well, perhaps the best way to think about it is not as a "lutheran"doctrine but a biblical one. The next thing to remember, is that is divine reveleation, but we must not think that the divine has revealed ALL THINGS to us. Nor should we think that his purpose in this revelation is our understanding. Who understands the two natures of Christ? Who understands the incarnation? Who understands the doctrine of the Trinity? what we are called to do, is trust (rest) in the Lord, and confess what he has taught us.

[@1920s]

@@mathewlowrey2734 I used to be a Calvinist where everything is in a neat little box. The Lutheran explanation makes it seem like an outright contradiction and it causes me to have doubts about everything.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

@@1920s One of the most important things to be able to do when reading scripture, is to be able to discern law, from gospel. But the first thing to remember about the entirety of scripture, is that it is Christ-centered. He is the begininning and end of scripture. very simply speaking, the Law (while it is most certainly good) kills/condemns. Or, another way of saying that is that the laws purpose of the Law is to curb, condemn (show us our sin), and when regenerate, it serves as a guide of gods will (which we then love). The gospel, is life. It is, the only font of life. It regenerates, renews, comforts, gives rest, assurance, etc. Simply put, the gospel is "gods non-contingent promises" An even simpler way to think of Gospel, is to think of Christ and his work for us. So, the first thing to think about in any doctrine, is to determine whether it is Law or Gospel, and to center it on christ. Would being taught that God has foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified an elect unto salvation be Law? Well, if we take it like a calvinsit to mean therefore (by magisterially superimposing our reason and logic onto gods word) god has also permamently and indubitably created an elect unto damnation, that is not Law (something that condemns us) but instead, a contradiction of the Bible, when we are taught over and again that God desires that ALL come to salvation, that the sins of THE WORLD were washed away in the blood of christ, that god is not the author of evil, etc. But neither is an eletion unto damnation gospel. That would hardlby be comforting, assuring, or give us rest. That is because, you will not find anywhere in the bible anyting teaching a predestination unto damnation. Now, that leaves us with what is explicitly taught - an election unto salvation. How is one saved? In and By Christ, no? (lets remember to put christ in the center of all scripture). Has christ not always been, from time eternal, the plan for salvation? It is not like god created adam and eve, and then we fell (oops!) and then God needed a plan B. Christ has been the eternal way of salvation. The bible speaks often of those who arent saved as those whom "christ does not know" or that he "doesnt know their name" etc. In other words, anyone outside christ is not saved, as anyone in christ is saved. Its all about Christ. To be IN CHRIST, is to be saved, from eternity past. To be outside of christ, is to be dead...not alive, prepared for destruction, etc. Well, now put this way, this is just what any christian understands, right? Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. So the question is, how is one "in Christ?" Well, we all know that its by grace, through faith, that we are in Christ..how do we obtain faith? We are called, by grace (those whom he predestined he also called). The gospel is our call. Im not sure this helps, but focus on Christ generally, and distingush between Law and Gospel, and I pray you keep in the Word and find/have a good church/pastor to help you understand and your faith grow. What you are noticing is the Crux Teologorum - the Cross of the Theologian. Why are those who are saved, saved only by God (and not in anyway by themselves or their own work or will), who desires that all be saved, and yet, many will not be saved, and that will be entirely their own fault, and not gods? The scriptures are deep, and have a lot to say about this problem...but in the end, they do not resolve this problem to the human way of reasoning, except in the main because we know that in Christ all things hang together. It is an "apparent" contradiction, but we know that ultimately it is not a contradiction. What conservative lutherans try to do, is avoid theodicy - a made up logical working out of apparent contradictions or the hidden nature of God. We do not add to, or subtract from scriptures. We do not use our reason as a magesterium to sit judgement of the word of God, but merely as a ministerial use, so as to best confess what our Lord teaches. We don't understand, how God can be one being, and yet three distinct persons, each the full essence of the divinity, and yet distinct and unified at the same time - we simply confess it to be the teaching of scripture. We do not understand, exactlly how Christ is both fully man, and fully divine, two natures, neither divorced or intermingled, in yet one person, never divided. Yet we confess that, In Christ. We do not understand the Crux Teologorum (salvation is of God, who wills all to salvation, yet not all are saved, and that is only their fault). But that is what scripture teaches, and we confess. WE do not understand, why exactly evil entered the world, or how it came to be the evil enterred the world that god is soverign over, yet god is not author of evil....but we confess it. We do not fully understand why god chose to create in the first place, he was/is complete and perfected in and of himself, lacking in no thing.....yet he did, and we confess it. We do not know exactly how the real, bodily presence of Christ comes to be in the bread and wine (which are both still, also, bread and wine), but we confess that Christ said that it does. We do not know many things, of the hidden nature or hidden counsel, or hidden will of God...we merely know that we are to preach Christ, and him Crucified. To find our rest in him, our comfort, our solace, our hope. To cling to his promises, as our only place of refuge from the condemnation of the Law.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

and we know that Christ is not a promise of last resort, but that he is truth, and he is life, and his promises are eternally decreed, and that in Christ, we cannot fail, and that if He be for us, no one can be against us, and that what we Gain in Christ is all things, and what we have outside of christ is nothing, no life, and what we deserve. Again, that key to unlocking (as much as is possible) the doctrines of the Bible is to always, always, always, keep christ in the center, and to distinguish properly the distinction between Law and Gospel.. Many confuse the Gospel as a law, and these are those who bellieve that they must "get themselves some faith, or even do works to prove their faith, or make a decision for christ, etc). Or, they take parables meant to show us how christ does all the work of salvation, and we make them into laws that we must be the good samaritan (Christ is the Good Samaritan - we are the injured party). Or people take the law, which condmens, and try to make it into a gospel....if we only follow this or that law, we will "prosper" - like prosperity gospel). So do not be confused, I pray, but endeavor to know only one thing, and that be Christ, and hIm Crucified for your salvation. Want to know how god is, Christ is God revealed to us. Want to know about God's nature...look at Christ on the Cross. Want to know about Gods will? Examine christs will and his teaching and his work. Do you want assurance and rest? Rely not on your understanding, but ON CHRISTS WORK AND PROMISES FOR YOU. I pray you assurance and faith brother.

[@kalobadams7803]

@@mathewlowrey2734 can I email you about this topic?

[@markbraco7593]

This is everything wrong today. Remember to seek the face of God. Even pray for it. Let no man interpret the Word for you. God favors one from another. To know God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, is to know His Will, The Word, The Bible. Anything else is weak doctrine, given to babes.

[@danielwhitaker5445]

Where in God's Word does it say to pray for (it), presumably the "face" of God based on what you've described?.. While I appreciate your passion, it seems you may favor mystical methods as a way to understand/ interpret God's word?.. Likewise, appeasing and defining such a lofty and spiritual goal through (inward witness) is a taxing and very subjective approach to hinge eternal matters upon... Pardon and forgive me if I've misunderstood, but I spent 20yrs trying to find God on "inside" of me ...it doesn't work that way. Look outside yourself to God's work and a church body that preaches and teaches correctly the word of God -

[@markbraco7593]

It's when you know that you know. And still my heart brother, if even to see His back side would be as glorious. Mystical?? If the Will of God is Mystical, then theirs more sides to Him. Don't you think?

[@danielwhitaker5445]

@@markbraco7593 "more sides"?...Respectfully, No...The will of God for his followers is to become a part of the church / Incidentally, the very thing He will one day return to gather unto himself is literally the church, those whom believe according to His word!!.. So His will for us is to read the word, join a church that correctly teaches/preaches and proclaims His word! If you do this, you'll learn about Christ sacrificial and atoning work on the cross for you, outside of and without your help in spite of your dead sinful state (should you ever believe) you're in such a need - Actually learning about what His word, will indeed anchor you to truth, thereby pulling you out of and away from the works of mystically seeking a god that you determine inwardly to be the truth... truth that will likely ebb and flow as you so desire and not according to His word. You previously posted to "Let no man interpret the Word for you"?!.. This is the opposite of what Gods word says - The new testament is replete with pastoral/elderdeacon and other church leadership requirements and instruction. 1st and 2nd Timothy as well as Titus come to mind - Point being, the word of God speaks very specifically as to what a qualified Pastors of churches should be, Mainly having the ability to teach/preach the word (correctly)!! Likewise, believers are instructed to gather with other believers around such pastors as opposed to looking inward and trying to determine the will of God - It's called church and we should not forsake the assembling thereof! Again, no mystical journey required, just read the word, it's there. With all that being said, I strongly suggest that you look into more of Pastor Bryan Wolfmeuller's material and resources -- He's a Lutheran (LCMS) pastor and a wealth of knowledge to be sure... I mean you're here and you've commented several times for a reason, why not continue and actually dive deeper into Bryan's wealth of vids, sermons, free books etc. found here wolfmueller.co/

[@markbraco7593]

And They. Will. Seek. My Face. Early.

[@markbraco7593]

And since we're on the topic of unicorns, have you heard the 7 thunders utter yet?