Electrical Installation Condition Report Sample - Part 4

[@mikedavis2341]

Appendix B Table B6 . Maximum zs for Type B 6 amp 60898 MCB is 5.87 ohms. Thanks for putting this content on youtube, it is good that there is advice and guidance available within the industry & at the same time showing possible customers a good view of what to expect if they use your service.

[@titmando1199]

@Artisan Electrics - BS60898 Type B 6amp maximum earth fault loop impedance is 5.87ohms

[@stuartbrown2567]

Hi Jordan. Nice run through on the EICR not sure landlords will do it every time they put a new tenant in as I know some that have about 3 in a 5 year period. I have just been reading through the comment and came across the answer to your question, They had put maximum Zs on the lighting as 5.87 but my onsite guide says 7.28 take it the onsite guide is right, not that I’m questioning anybody

[@skyfsa]

Thank you, your content helps tremendously. The use of Fluke another reason I follow.. I would like to see how auto test will do onsite.

[@Badger8169]

Hi, thank you for sharing the video. Ive just bought a 1664fc do you have anymore videos on each function ?

[@lumpyfishgravy]

There's a reason GS38 shrouds are removable. If you're self-employed, use what works while understanding the risk. Different if your employer expects you to do something impossible.

[@artisanelectrics]

Thanks

[@ruhulali8129]

Hi Jordan, enjoying the content, keep up the good work! This isn't criticism but simply an observation regarding your testing methods. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that Zs cannot be used to prove polarity. Polarity is a dead test (other than incoming supply) and thus should be confirmed visually or with the use of an R1 + R2 test. I prefer to use the R1 + R2 test method for the continuity of CPC as it satisfies both the continuity of CPC and polarity checks. Furthermore the R1 + R2 test also facilities the calculation of Zs and in some circumstances this is safer than carrying out the live Zs test by measurement. Where safe to do so I also carry out the Zs test by measurement and compare it against calculated results.

[@lumpyfishgravy]

Yes Re is R2. As originally specified, the 1653 was a pan-European tester and some countries (eg NL - I think) place more emphasis on Re than Rle. However, I have no idea why it's only one decimal place.

[@artisanelectrics]

Thanks!

[@JoannaHammond]

I'm supprised test equipment manufacturers haven't developed their own form software that wirelessly links to the tester and fills in the form as you go along depending on the readings you are taking. Could be one hell of a time saver, especially if the UI in the tester was developed correctly. The tester could easily be updated with ammendments/editions as a simple firmware update to ensure it's doing it correctly. Or, another idea, the industry develops a standard for data transfer for the readings/form/etc that means any tester can send the data to any form software and bingo. Life becomes even easier. In the aviation industry for tech log/etc transmission this was a god send (ATA Spec 2000 Chapter 16), made connecting various systems together a doddle :)

[@electricery]

14:40 I would have checked the lamp holder for loose wires while I was there to establish why it was flickering The last thing you need is a callback the day someone moves in saying the light don’t work and then find it’s a loose wire that you can’t charge to repair

[@Spark101.]

Regarding the 40amp MCB for the ring main, that is a C2 regardless of how cables are run......take a look at reg: 433.1.204 on page 89 👍🏻

[@lewistempleman9752]

What's 433.1.204 got to do with it!?

[@AlanLumsden]

@@lewistempleman9752 433.1.204 advises: "The load in any part of the circuit should be unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity of the cable. ✔

[@Spark101.]

Lewis Templeman Read the reg.....

[@cumberland1234]

Jordan has replaced the 40A MCBs with 32A hence this is no longer an issue.

[@Spark101.]

cumberland1234 Glad you pointed that out.....i didn’t realise!

[@jordangallacher276]

Great video jordan 👍 love the content at the minute as I am a adult learner , keep up the good work

[@artisanelectrics]

Jordan Gallacher awesome thanks for watching

[@BezosAutomaticEye]

I'm looking to go down the adult learner route too. How are you doing it - privately funded C&G? cheers.

[@linksone6287]

Grand champ once again bro! Please do another! Absolutely; love the vids. 👍🏾 Cheers. Lincoln

[@artisanelectrics]

Thanks! Another video coming Saturday!

[@linksone6287]

👍🏾☝️

[@imark7777777]

As long as there's different depths things we will never be able to standardize on probes. There's a finger guard there for a reason and they should be used by professionals who have the training or at least the wear for all to read the manual. Your fingers shouldn't be touching the metal of the probes when you're using them. Which is why I say and have had to take the Caps off and then out of fear of losing them just leave them off. Granted I am in the US with only 120, 240 V the only time I had an issue was when I tried to do something stupid sorted and the box was very tight and I tried to get to a terminal screw without removing the device and grounding it to the Box. I wasn't getting good readings from the socket and managed to bridge my pro-tip between the screw and the Box that was metal I put a nice gouge in it. And I think I was also dealing with a Federal fire Pacific panel....

[@gerardpearson1235]

I tend to use smoke detectors with a 10 year battery life, so no need for mains, battery changes and after 10 years the smoke detector needs changing anyway. Very simple installation and not having to change alkaline batteries.

[@danielwood5334]

Hi jordan, love watching the informative content you guys produce at Artisan. I was wondering if you were to purchase a new MFT which would you go for ? Megger MFT1741+ or Fluke 1664FC ? As you have experienced using both machines which do you prefer ? Cheers 🤔

[@ΝτιάριΧοσνάβ]

Hi Jordan. When you testing the lights don't show the results for next time if you show the screen tester it is better Thank you for the video

[@paultipton743]

I use the long thin probes on the megger tester for the Rcbo's at a consumer unit as the standard Gs38 probes dont Reach far enough into the live terminals

[@leeburnside735]

Great vid keep them coming like the eicr vids how long did the appartement take

[@mcbunson]

For a BS60898 type B circuit breaker the Zs ≤ 7.28Ω under normal conditions, As according to BS7671 table 41.3. However as domestic house supply voltage could be down 6%, volt drop could be 3% and Voltage factor (Cmin) could be down at 0.8, then Zs ≤ 5.59Ω would be a more conservative value. Though I feel I am over complicating (disclaimer: new learner) And thank you for the learner question, really fun to do some on-site questions.

[@mcbunson]

Just been looking at the other answers. Would someone be able to explain why the onsite guide shows a different value?

[@MuratAydogdu98]

@@mcbunson I'm an apprentice too :D as far as I remember the values in the OSG is for existing and working circuits whereas the regs book shows the maximum permissible values for the breaker types and ratings for new circuits which is why I was told to always use the 80% of the values shown in the regs book as a guide when testing. I hope I've helped you out (Anyone else correct me if I'm wrong)

[@thomasbambridge6974]

Gs 38 tips are no good for most zs testing on lighting, smokes etc . I too take mine off . (If I’m honest I can’t remember when I last had them on , que all the triggered super sparks with their smart arse comments )

[@AlanLumsden]

Mine are only on for my annual assessment Thomas. Never been marked down for removing them when necessary then immediately putting them back on! :o)

[@dlewis129]

Hi Jordan Notice you use the remote button on the test probe. Not really needed as the fluke auto starts zs test. Always found that remote probe can give odd readings. Any reason you use it ??

[@rattlehead85]

Great Video buddy. Have to laugh at how thorough you are when you think loads won’t take the cover off the damn consumer unit let alone a blank plate of an unused circuit 😂👍🏻👍🏻

[@Mainly_Electrical]

Good video , did you fit a 6 monthly rcd test notice

[@cjkokay]

1:19. You polarity test is wrong. It is possible to have n N or E reversed too and this type of test won't pick it up. You can typically only with a trailing lead and no men link.

[@robtno1]

Well done for putting yourself out there can’t be easy . Why would someone put 40amp mcbs on a ring main mmmh. I can see already it’s going to be a race to the bottom with EICR’s already seeing companies doing them for practically nothing, a real shame ! In fact the whole become an electrician in 5 week culture has swelled over this lockdown. Minimum 3 years college and get some time on the tools, real life experience is required. Even if you start off working for free it will show you’re eager, if the employer respects that effort they will pay you !

[@artisanelectrics]

Yeah it’s strange I don’t know if they designed it that way but I decided to just downgrade them to 32A to be safe. You’re right about the race to the bottom unfortunately not a lot we can do apart from make sure we stand out from the rest with our high quality workmanship and customer service and also specializing helps sometimes that’s why I’m trying to specialize in EV Charging and Renewables and Smart Tech

[@farmingace1015]

That is how I got my apentership I worked with him for free for 4 ish months and he liked me so much he took me on just can’t wait to get back to it after lockdown is over 😀

[@shadhutchison6578]

are there more videos or North American links that explain the details of the different tests performed.

[@jmx318]

What is earth loop impedance? And what reading would be to high?

[@NahidAhmed-qg2so]

Maximum Zs is 5.82 oms

[@richardlang2185]

If anyone wants to learn some electric, check John Ward videos. Guy is good and he understand what he is doing.

[@acelectricalsecurity]

Not sure why you would price these tests tight, I would be charging my normal fee, irrespective of how many properties there are, and they could like it or lump it, electricians do this time and time again, they devalue the trade, a plumber wouldn't do that, at least plumbers know how to charge.

[@RWATraineeElectrician]

Thanks for sharing 👍

[@lewistempleman9752]

Why didn't you count the triple pole fan isolators as points? On the other hand you counted the low voltage undercabinet lights as points? I normally count every point where theres 240 volts (or technically 50 - 1000 AC) Also spotted a pendant with a lower part of the cap missing, the part that prevents fingers contacting the metal base of the lamp. I normally c2 those.

[@artisanelectrics]

Thanks! I only count “points of utilisation” as that is always how I’ve understood you’re supposed to do it. So you only count items that actually consume electricity not switches or isolators. Maybe I’m wrong though?

[@Mainly_Electrical]

Lewis templeman you count switches and isolators as points on a cct ?

[@lewistempleman9752]

@@artisanelectrics My thinking in recording all points is that it could be useful to the next person working on that circuit. For example if I am testing or fault finding a cooker circuit, I might assume that there is an outlet plate and possibly an isolator switch only, but if i have a previous EICR/Installation cert/circuit chart to hand and it says 3+ points, it indicates that there is more on this circuit which I have to find and investigate. And this way it conveys something actually useful from one electrician to the next. However I did some research and BS7671 definition of a point is basically a current using fixture or fitting and most people seem to agree on that, so i think you are correct in the way you do things. And I suppose that could also indicate something useful about the circuit in terms of maximum demand and diversity etc. Apparently though, recording points isnt a requirement of the regs so it really doesnt matter. As an aside, the NICEIC still regard a double socket as two points, as two current using items can be connected, just leaned that, but i won't be recording as such lol

[@thomasbyles3075]

More EICRs please - never get too many of them. Also really like how you’ve sectioned this one into parts. Zs 6A BS EN 60898 = 7.28?

[@Fishbait075]

2hours 10, with all the extra overhead of filming. Nice.

[@artisanelectrics]

Fishbait075 thanks!

[@doit4england]

Maximum tabulated Zs is 7.28? Maximum measured Zs is 5.82? PleSe correct me if I'm wrong :) I'm still a early learner lol

[@vbhair8325]

Correct Joe table 41.3 as tabulated and X 0.80 to confirm measured

[@anthonybragg]

Hi Jordan, I know that your videos are a snapshot of your work and not a "how-to" so I assume you do an R2 and loop test not R1+ R2 on an EICR but what do you do regarding parallel paths for the R2.For example, you could have a break in the CPC on the upstairs lighting but the test would not indicate this as the path of the CPC when the 2 way is down to a switch with another lighting circuit. Also the from the video the cooker circuit with a parallel with the gas pipe.

[@kkeavo]

You can get spring loaded leads to be gs38 compliant and still be able to get the fackin things in

[@artisanelectrics]

Ken Keaveney Nice

[@skuula]

I once had a shock on a water tap. Turned out somebody had made an unapproved earth connection through the plumbing, but the feeder pipe was plastic....

[@seanboxley4594]

Good video Jordan 👍🏻. Have you tried the Kewtech Lightmate adaptors for testing? They are handy to have in your test kit

[@seanyorke4295]

Or the Beha-Amprobe ones, if you want to stick to Fluke.

[@ianbooth5374]

I have a query that somebody may be able to answer. In this video it shows numerous speedfit pushfit plumbing fittings linked with 15mm copper legs. I was under a sink the other day Ichecking the bonding to the stopcock and it was all very similar set up to what was under the sink in this video. Out of curiosity I tested for continuity between a length of copper on the cold and one on the hot. Both were sandwiched between plastic fittings but strangely I got continuity. I checked to see if they were touching at any point but they weren't. I may be missing something here or being a pratt but why would I get continuity? Has Speedfit put something into their fittings that now means you get continuity?

[@crumps84]

So apparently Roman loves it!

[@neil6438]

Should of brought a megger they come with decent leads and a 2 wire non trip test for earth loop test,

[@artisanelectrics]

Yeah I’m tempted I must admit!

[@hristobozhkov4087]

Hello, sorry for the question its probably lame, but when you did ring final continuity you did not do the 3 step procedure. On the earth loop test socket measurement was 0.37, while L/L was 0.41 and E/E was 0.69 which combined is 1.10, which divided by 4 is 0.275, which should be the value of R1+R2. And the earth loop on the test at socket was 0.37. How is that correct. I just bought fluke 1662 so I am trying to understand how should I use it. Thanks in advance

[@metahertzuk]

Great set of videos, super informative! Would be great to pick your brains on the Fluke; I've just picked up a used but calibrated 1664FC. I'm finding that my earth loop impedance tests (loop, no trip, L-PE) are giving me insanely different values if i hit test repeatedly. For example: 0.57, 072, 0.67, 0.43, 0.54, 0.43, 0.73. Where as L-N test is a constant 0.38! Repeated zero's of the plug lead don't show any changes, so I don't think it's the leads. Is this something you've experienced? Don't know anyone with the same tester, Thanks!

[@jay_financial]

Try turning off all the other circuits. I often got Error 5 messages with everything on. They go quicker without the noise.

[@metahertzuk]

@@jay_financial Thanks! Will do. Had a lot more success with no trip on non-rcd protected circuits (to your point, will retry the same circuit (it's my home) with the others off!)

[@wyndavies5044]

They say in wales here anyway, if its a rented property they have to be the lithium battery smoke detectors. This has come from aico direct.

[@farmingace1015]

Yes think it is the same in the U.K. as I am an apprentice and the electrician I work with said that once the ones with batteries go out of date must be replaced with the in built batteries as people would just remove them to stop the beeping 😁

[@wyndavies5044]

@@farmingace1015 i am in the u.k boy 😁😁😂😂

[@cumberland1234]

I think the RE result is earth resistance

[@mathman0101]

The 1663 and 1664fc instruments can also measure the earth resistance component of the total loop resistance, and line impedance (source impedance between line and neutral, or the line-to-line impedance in three-phase systems).

[@artisanelectrics]

That’s awesome I learnt something new about the tester I’ve had for 3 years! 😁

[@mathman0101]

It’s a great tester not perfect but a very good one let’s hope the new version they will release has even more capabilities. Greater accuracy and new test functions that merge harmonic distortion capture, testing of AFD, surge protection not just RCDs ability to identify equipment on line and allowing insulation resistance testing on line and load side without having to take apart wiring of sockets. Especially on the output side linked with fluke software that allow you to dovetail and create a report structure and output to it. That would save you having to have to pay for a software system to do that. No problem we learn a lot from your experience and issues that come up in your work.

[@davidmarsden8868]

@@mathman0101 you seem very knowlegable on the 1664fc, ive just bought one and of course i had to try it out at home (kid with a new toy) i plugged into my kitchen radial circuit and tested Zi High but im confused by the readings testing L-N 0.29 ohms PSC 813a Zmax >2000ohms testing L-PE 0.31ohms PEFC 765a Zmax >2000ohms Zi 0.36ohms PSC 659a Re 0.10hms whats happening with the Zmax? is the Re my earth resistence? trying to learn all the functions and understand its readings so any tips would be helpful, i keep hinting for Jordan to do an in depth review but its falling on deaf ears ; )

[@mathman0101]

David Marsden you have given a whole bunch of readings, it’s not clear what test you are undertaking. I suspect you are trying to do an earth loop impedance test? whether you are undertaking an earth loop impedance test or an earth resistance test by loop method the latter is only one element of the former where continuity readings must also be added. Most electricians take Ze at the consumer unit which will differ if you have a TN system or TT system. I suggest you look at GSH electrical channel which covers this issue on measuring earth loop impedance and total earth fault loop impedance Zs. The readings will be impacted whether or not you have RCDs on the circuit or not and whether you have eliminated the resistance of the leads of the tester. These are live tests and I suggest if you are not an electrician it could be dangerous. On the fluke if you are plugging the tester on multiple sockets a Zmax is measuring the multiple loop impedance readings you are undertaking across those socket readings.

[@Marco-mg9tv]

They don’t come much easier than that. Completely empty clean property in good order... let’s see you do one like I did yesterday in 2 hours - an health hazard (that’s without covid) inhabited sh#thole full of clutter, grime, mess/furniture in the way of sockets etc, couldn’t find water service or bond , mess of wiring in non RCD board, circuit designations vague/wrong , Neutrals/CPCs not in right numbers, RFC no continuity, roses welded to ceiling with 40 years of paint, lugs missing and or stripped, also you’ve got up to an hour of completing the EICR/admin etc.

[@artisanelectrics]

Nightmare! I’ve done a fair few of those in my time! There’s nothing worse...

[@jay_financial]

2h??? I just finished sorting out my consumer unit and it took a lot longer than that. Guess you’re not doing any insulation testing / RCD tests…?

[@ianbooth5374]

Sorry but me again. I was trying to explain to a client the other day why their Aico smoke alarm was bleeping because the 9v battery was running low. They were surprised that the smoke alarm had a battery as well. I pointed out that it is a back up in case of power failure. The alarm was fitted in 2018 and they felt that a Duracel battery should last longer as it is only there for a back up. Does anybody know how much power the battery actually uses? Obviously they got a bill for a new lithium 9v battery and my time. Not a happy customer. It would be handy in future if I could explain this.

[@123rossweir]

7.28 ohms for the max zs on the b6 60898 breaker?

[@AlanLumsden]

5.82 or is it 6.13... Your move... (80% value).

[@cumberland1234]

There are two answers to Jordans question, the first is the max permissible and the other is max measured. Ross has got the max permissible.

[@123rossweir]

@@AlanLumsden I'm only an apprentice so Im still learning. But I thought it was only 80% on max measured and he just said max?

[@cumberland1234]

Ross Weir yes, the figure that you quoted is the one from the regs which is the maximum. When comparing the figures though we take into account the cable temperature. For a 70 degrees rated cable measured at 10 degrees the max measured Zs is 5.87 ohms (from the on site guide)

[@123rossweir]

@@cumberland1234 ahhh okay I understand. Cheers 👍

[@ben8878]

5.87 ohms

[@michaels4381]

You should zero your leads before live testing, you’ll still have resistance in the leads when live testing. You’d be surprised as it always lowers the ZS readings.

[@artisanelectrics]

michael S thanks

[@acelectricalsecurity]

I thought that rental properties couldn't have smoke detectors with replaceable batteries now, and they had to be the lithium type.

[@paullyons4624]

Anthony charles I believe that’s only applicable to HMO’s, there is no legal requirements to have smokes in a normal rental property.

[@Mainly_Electrical]

paul lyons yes there is one on each level minimum

[@barrybritcher]

It's only a backup battery

[@acelectricalsecurity]

@@barrybritcher that's true, but I have been to so many rentals where the battery has gone flat or removed and the circuit turned off. And it's for that reason I never put smoke detectors on there own circuit, I wire them as their own circuit and double them in the mains board with a lighting circuit, to stop people doing that.

[@paullyons4624]

Your sticker had fell off by the end 🤣

[@nigellewis4686]

If you say to a coustomer your lamp has blown they will give a funny look who changed the wording

[@artisanelectrics]

😂

[@dexwhitmore]

Jordan, you'll want something like this: www.fluke.com/en-gb/product/accessories/test-leads/fluke-tlk225 Every probe/clip you could want.....and its Fluke ;)

[@CrazySparkie63]

The light switches also count as points served!

[@Blackf1ngers]

No they don't. It's points of load.

[@Mmmjustme]

So I have to say Jordan, has your missus been cutting your hair, like me? Looks like a no2 at the back, which for 10 weeks without barbers being open 🤷🏻‍♂️🤔 💈

[@artisanelectrics]

Tom you’re spot on there 😂

[@davefletcher2664]

You shouldn't be doing Zs on an EICR. Avoid live working. Add r1r2 to Ze. Job done.

[@Spark101.]

Not true. R1R2 + Ze doesn’t necessarily = Zs.

[@lewistempleman9752]

Eh? What you on about dave

[@Blackf1ngers]

I'd agree in the case of some things such as showers or behind cooker switches etc but for general lights, sockets, smokes i don't see any real risk. Also R1+R2 doesn't verify the neutral.

[@Marco-mg9tv]

Black Fingers I’d disagree. Why mess about chopstick style in a live pendant when you can do dead r1r2 test, confirm polarity, switch in line conductor and obtain zs all in safety ? Strictly speaking breaking the law 😇 like most of us do !

[@BezosAutomaticEye]

5.87Ohm?

[@AlanLumsden]

5.82 or is it 6.13...

[@artisanelectrics]

👏

[@BezosAutomaticEye]

@@artisanelectrics You said type B, right? ;)

[@vbhair8325]

Table 41.3 confirms tabulated value for Tybe B 60898. Times the value by 0.80 to get measured value which = 5.824 or 5.82

[@billynomatz9233]

Fluke mft, called fluke ,because if you get the same reading twice, it’s a fluke !!!

[@artisanelectrics]

Billy Nomatz haha

[@testingtechnicians6751]

I was waiting for this part of the videos. Once you have completed all the videos in this series, can please do an EICR coding video as did last time kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmacgaKmn9qspac. I have also subscribed to Vespula software for myself as you recommended. So when you do the coding I can follow along with you as you do the video on EICR coding in the software.

[@richardlang2185]

With all respect do you have Inspection and Testing Qualifications? Do not make a video if you do not understand what you are doing. Please buy and learn IET Guidance Note 3 Inspection and Testing. You not allowed to do live tests until is necessary. Ze and Zs are measured at Distribution Board. Zs at circuits you have to do by other methods, calculations and checking results. Not guessing.

[@artisanelectrics]

I did my 2391 when I was 20 and have been testing and inspecting for over 15 years now. I have and use guidance note 3 regularly. Doing live tests at sockets is absolutely fine and the rest we usually calculate Zs based on Ze and R1&R2 readings

[@richardlang2185]

@@artisanelectrics Hi. With Zs values tested on circuits as on your video you cannot get R1, R2. You need to do Continuity tests, calculations, adding max. permitted cable temperatures and checking with tables. There is quite a lot to check. Live test as you do is not permitted in UK. I would recommend to go threw IET book again. Also 40A for ring circuit 2.5/1.5 is not permitted. BS7671 All the best. Kind Regards Richard

[@artisanelectrics]

We usually test both Zs and R1&R2

[@AlanLumsden]

Overall... A tad haphazard in your testing Jordan. Could do better. A lot better. I've chosen to not mention your omissions...