Elegoo Mars 4 Ultra Review and The CURSE of ACF

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Well, this is impressive, the first consumer printer with 18-micron pixels, but how well does that pixel size translate into sharp prints? Well unfortunately it doesn't. Elegoo has created a printer that probably solves the voxel and layer line issue, then introduced another one altogether - though it's an easy fix...
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00:00 - Intro

[@FauxHammer]

Buy the Elegoo Mars 4 Ulltra here: shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=2351051&u=3060349&m=104244&urllink=&afftrack= Buy the Elegoo Mars 4 Here: shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=2351049&u=3060349&m=104244&urllink=&afftrack= Buy WARGAMER - The best Resin for Miniatures yesthats3dprinted.com/pages/wargamer?ref=FauxHammer Tomlov Video Microscope: amzn.to/43BfdLO Get any printer working easily with the Photonsters XP Range Finder - www.thingiverse.com/thing:6023738 (watch my video for full instructions kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ6TXq1vbJannbs) Join this channel to get access to perks: kzbin.info/door/_9Jsf3SP8aMJgn0xv5jHjAjoin

[@St0RM33]

man i hope it's a good review and you compare against sonic 8k s..

[@allnicksweretaken]

Where can I find the J3D Tech video link?

[@hauleroid]

Hey Ross, can you please answer the question that bugs me since the release of Saturn 3 - does Elegoo's new build plates fit their previous models?) Specifically - the new Saturn 3 plate on Saturn 2

[@aberodriguez4149]

I don't own a Resin printer yet but in my eyes I prefer sharpness and detail over speed. As for plate size I have already became accustomed to a Ender 3 print area so I would rather have the 220 x 220 x 250 mm or a tad bit larger than to go to a smaller print area. Thanks Ross for your time and work.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah I admit, it is hard for me to go back to these small units now

[@michaelnoardo3315]

ACF is not only faster, but it also reduces the failure of printing significantly because it sticks much less to the FEP. Many of the 3D groups I am participating in are switching from FEP/NFEP to ACF, even on regular printers

[@kdonv]

Interesting. I've never had problems with my FEP, but I'm printing on 2k printers (about to upgrade soon). Is that such a problem for you that you're looking to make a change? Even though it compromises print quality? Is this because you do a lot of printing for commercial reasons? Genuinely curious as to what user persona that appeals to. (I hope this comes across as a respectful question... I mean it entirely respectfully.)

[@mr_disintegrator]

Ugh. So ACF is for newbs that can't be bothered to choose correct settings and adjust prints so they don't have excessive cross-sections (suction)?

[@michaelnoardo3315]

@@mr_disintegrator i heard this many times also when comparing ABS to PLA , i absolutely disagree with you

[@michaelnoardo3315]

@@user-it7kg3pm4q also the lifting speed can be 3X and have no failure, people are having good reviews about ACF

[@Ryan30z]

@@mr_disintegrator I wouldn't use it because of the hatching effect, but less peel force is objectively a good thing. It ultimately means it allows smaller supports to be used and by extension less clean up. Supports are the hardest part of resin printing, reducing the barrier to entry isn't a bad thing.

[@BabyJesus66]

They should just include an extra resin tray that has normal FEP, and one for fast printing with the blurry stuff. Then you can store the fast resin in one, and higher quality resin in the other... Or make it an option when you buy it so people who want fast printing can get the one they want, or vice versa.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah I agree, probe ly not a whole tray because that would up the price quite a bit, but at least a choice of PFA in the box

[@tr7851]

That sounds too logical.

[@miklay1527]

That's exactly why I buy an extra resin tank with normal FEP with my Saturn 3 Ultra. When I want to print fast with no extra detail like big base I took ACF and for the small detail I took the normal FEP. I think it is good to have a choice

[@FauxHammer]

@@miklay1527 Very Smart Decision!

[@TheMoondougie]

What settings do you change and how much, when you switch from ACF to PFA?

[@МихаилКролевец]

Yep, convenience is superior to speed or even super sharp detail. Choosing now, I would go with the anycubics m5s simply for the autoleveling and error detection

[@tr7851]

I'm so glad you could finally review this unit. This prevented me from huuuuge buyers remorse. I've seen the ACF issue brought up in one of Vogman's reviews, and it was the main reason I didn't preorder this unit. The lack of a screen protector is also a deal breaker (note that the Elegoo website mentions a 9H hardness tempered glass protector included in the specs, which clearly isnt there on your unit) Keep up the good work!

[@FauxHammer]

thanks a Ton, yeah VOG did great by replacing the ACF and showing what it can do. I'll do the same with my Mars 4. yeah i found out about the screen protector from commentors, i never got one.

[@misterbeeps]

We love to point out all the quality short-cuts Elegoo, and it's competitors, take to push out these printers but at least the cost reflects those short-cuts. We ought to be somewhat thankful that we don't have to pay thousands for better fit and finish on a machine that would produce the same quality prints.

[@petercallison5765]

You would thing you would like a high quality build that lasts longer but let's face it, we can't help but upgrade after a couple years.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, they are killing it in the market by being very efficient with their costs

[@roberthoffmann4703]

the prints with the wargamer resin look really great. but if the resin is only available in the UK, unfortunately that doesn't help the rest of the world

[@FauxHammer]

We’ll bring it out to more territories ASAP

[@MrSlabberdank]

At £50 (63.53 USD) per kg it doesn't really help the UK.

[@kdonv]

@@MrSlabberdank ouch. :D 😅

[@davidnicholls344]

FIFTY QUID A BOTTLE

[@chaogeo5709]

I just went, I might try that… even though I have 4 bottles sat next to my printer… but damn, £50. How good IS it? Has anyone here tried?

[@tyoung319]

I have a different take on ACF from a business standpoint. I will (and do) sacrifice a SMALL amount of detail for mass gains in print speed and consistency. We have purchased two M5S, and equipped our Linant Base Pros with ACF. We saw a 50% increase in speeds on the linants along with lowering failure rates into the low single digit range. The M5S have also done great, but have a glaring flaw that many are not speaking on that also is an issue with Elegoo printers (saturn 2 for us) is a "squish" in base layers requiring you to stretch 1-2% in the Z direction. While able to accommodate around this, its a paint and leads to lower dimensional accuracy. Overall as a business that makes functional parts for production, ACF has been AMAZING. But I can concede that us doing functional prints vs photo realistic prints skews my view point, and from a "artistic" standpoint this maybe a no go. But, I would love to see you dig in to this issue with "squishing" in base layers that is affecting now multiple brands. Keep up the great work and content!

[@dwintster]

Interesting perspective, I have been considering getting a resin printer in addition to my bambulab for business purposes. Though I was not aware that you could make functional parts on resin printers. Although I did use them up to 15 years ago (commercial grade SLA) working as an Industrial Designer, most prints were used to create tooling for small production runs or prototypes. My question is, what kind of functional parts are you actually able to make with resin now?

[@tyoung319]

@@dwintster we make lots of smaller parts, capacitor casings, wire organizers, speaker adapter rings and housings. The "basic" abs like resins can be a bit brittle for functional parts requirements depending, but look into a company called "3D Materials" and they have lines of affordable engineering resins, the PP and PCS lines make great resins for stuff that needs some flexibility and impact resistance. They have high heat (400f+), ceramic like, silicon like and a few others. Big things getting to know what resins go in what application.

[@dwintster]

@tyoung319 That's great , it has really progressed a lot. Thanks a lot for the info. I will check them out.

[@donjuandon]

I agree with your priorities of quality over speed, and I think speed is still a big area of opportunity for printers going forward. I'd even argue it's going to be the next big differentiator as resin printers evolve. Like Apple learned with their retina display research, there's an upper limit where increasing resolution no longer matters. Fighting over microns is reaching the point of diminishing returns. All that being said, once they start to focus on speed they can't lose the ground they've gained on detail. Looks like these new release sheets are doing exactly that.

[@Colorcrayons]

This is quite true, because unless you are making microelectronic parts where you need precision delineated by the millionths, there is only so much practical use 99.9999999% of users will want or need. This is why specialty tooling is so expensive, in order to cater to that 0.0000001% of the population. Once we reach the point where resolution lines are invisible to the naked eye, or after a model has been primed and painted, then thats where this race should end.

[@DreadSkulll]

Went through the comments to see if anyone mentioned it, but you might want to reach out to Elegoo as they seem to have sent you a defective printer, it may also have been missing from early review models sent out to content creators because although Uncle Jessie mentioned it, he didn't show it, but there is meant to be a tempered glass screen protector for the lcd, from the description on their website "The mono LCD is protected by a 9H hardness tempered glass, ensuring it withstands daily wear and tear while maintaining optimal performance." a description absent from the standard mars 4, which was a huge part of why i've been looking to get this printer. If you reach out to them about the lack of screen protector, id love to hear about it, because this is very confusing to me that theres nothing between the polarizer and the vat, and that not being the description on the website. Thanks for the videos, they are always informative, just left scratching my head on this one.

[@coltimm]

I have a Phrozen Sonic Mighty 8k, which does amazing detail, I don't care about how long it takes to print because I always start my prints at night or when I go to work, most prints are finished by the time I get up or return from work, quality is what I want.

[@FauxHammer]

Thanks for sharing! You are completely right, I do the same. If a print takes long, is rather have that and a good print.

[@matthewcook5017]

I've never had the build plate loosen on my Mars 2 Pro, but that doesn't mean you're 'wrong' about the 4-screw system the higher-end units use either. I do LOVE they added the spring-loaded system in the Mars 4 though - that's a great upgrade. THANK YOU for this video! I've been passing up upgrading till now because my M2P still gives me such amazing prints, but the new units with their super-high rez and massive build areas are finally weakening my resolve. This was amazingly helpful - Liked and Subscribed! :D

[@FauxHammer]

Oh that;s sich a perfect point. yeah the Mars 2 is still solid even now!, in fact I'm about to drop a review of a 2k printer about that size and you know what. prints are fine.

[@richardaubin1951]

As a jeweler, I can see the benefit of speed in order to show prototypes to clients prior to manufacturing. Having two trays with both films with be an ideal situation... Heck, having 2 printers, 1 for each tray would be even better :)

[@FauxHammer]

Ok ok, that' sounds like a solid use. Inasume you could do a tray of test sizes too?

[@natearrigoni]

I really liked your review on the Photon Mono X 6ks, it was way more informative than AC's provided material or videos. That one brought me to your channel and I really appriciate your honest and realistic reviews as I keep watching. You are spot on about Bambu's success, it really wasn't until my P1P that I could enjoy learning modeling and other aspects of tinkering more and not spending so much energy keeping my bed slinger alive. I don't really care about the speeds, the quality and also the follow up from Bambu in makeing their stuff better keeps me loyal to them... for now. Thanks for the vids, cheers.

[@FauxHammer]

Thanks, brands don’t tend to explain much of their own products or how they work.

[@Desmo904]

I recently bought a Saturn 8K and I have been very pleased with the print quality over my old Mars 2PRO. (Nevermind the much larger build plate) I can't see me replacing the Saturn anytime soon.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah that's is an awesome printer

[@SB-io2lf]

I still haven't had chance to start using the saturn 2 I got late last year. I've kept wondering about an upgrade to this generation, but honestly I don't really think it feels like there's enough of a difference right now for me

[@DianosAbael]

I still print on a mars2pro and a Jupiter, so I range from 45 to 50 microns voxels and no one imagines I’m using “old” printers. Food for thought..

[@3lcost3]

Great video, I was all in for the new Saturn 4 Ultra, but with this video you just opened my eyes

[@FauxHammer]

Ultra is awesome, please wait for my review in a week

[@3lcost3]

@@FauxHammer thanks, I'm really waiting to see what you have to say on ACF, VOGMAN mentioned nothing about it, must've improved I guess.

[@WhiteWulfe]

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when you change out the FEP, and if there's any benefits to this one over the Mars 4 in the end.

[@St0RM33]

the nice thing about the ultra it comes with wifi, frensel lens (i hope it doesn't yellow as it's plastic) and better build mechanism, it would be better to give PFA film and double rails than ACF film..they are kinda shooting themselves in the foot here

[@FauxHammer]

It will be the same quality as the nars 4 but with the other enhanced features. Just like the M5s was to the M5

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer the point is to see if it's worth the extra money..in my mind yes, the issue they don't have yet a spare vat for sale yet

[@slayer1551]

⁠@@St0RM33 I’ve got a Saturn 3 resin tank with PFA arriving soon and will try printing out some minis to see how much sharper it is compared to the ACF that came with the ultra

[@St0RM33]

@@slayer1551 hmm tag me once you do:)

[@teshtishtoshtesh3218]

Quality over speed is the whole point of 3D printing in general for me. The only reason I'd do more resin prints is for detail. Otherwise, I'll use FDM. Quality over speed is key there, too. I've been keeping an eye on the Neptune line, hoping we'd get to sub-50 micron detail, but nooo, speed is the New Thing. Chasing speed is an active quest in the wrong direction, and it's soured me on the Neptunes.

[@FauxHammer]

You can print at sub 50 on the Neptune's. I've done 40 micron on my Neptune. But its not resin quality because you still have extruded plastic and the edge of each layer will always be slightly beveled.

[@edfhobbies556]

Resin prints with rando ABS like resins gets stronger prints for functional parts than FDM hands down. Its the needless slowness of the prints that hampers resin printers from taking over and making FDM obsolete. Quality in functional parts uses case doesn't mean micron resolution

[@pablofiasco2]

thanks for another good review! the more i watch, the more i really think im going to save up, and go right for a DLP model

[@FauxHammer]

Glad I could help!

[@craigcook5121]

I don’t have a printer but thinking of getting one. I want to print mini’s so quality over speed. Just basic good sense. Love the vids great info

[@HashtagGamingVideos]

I was turned off by the ACF due to the low detail I was seeing from people posting pics of their prints in the M5s facebook group, to the point that I just went for the 8K Uniformity instead. Much more expensive, but since FH puts it at the top of his list for printing minies, that's what I went with. Is it also at the top of your list when it comes to details? Because quality of life aside, in the end details are what matter no?

[@FauxHammer]

Well, the m5 screen isn’t very sharp anyway. So adding act will make it worse

[@olti6845]

So what if you replace the vat between the prints ? Are Saturn 3 and Saturn 3 Ultra Vat's the same ?

[@Colt3D25]

Yes they are the same

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, just change the vat. Or realise that ACF is crap and you’ll never use it and just change the film.

[@MadSpaceWolfDiary]

Thankbyoubfor this review it has given me some insight. Also, in your video, where did you find those underwater themed deathguard? Never mind had to read description a second time.

[@FauxHammer]

Glad you found them and I hope Mezgike got another sale from you. He's an incredible creator.

[@nubbinz75]

I use acf film for when I need to print and iterate on a model. Once I get something final I just print with nfep. so for me it works perfect. I have a photon m5s and its been printing great right out of the box.

[@George-ew3gx]

I thank you for the review. I will be printing highly detailed jewelry ,can I should change the film to nfep? What are your thoughts.

[@GoatZilla]

It's not just about speed, the reduced lift force helps with reliability.

[@FauxHammer]

How so?

[@GoatZilla]

@@FauxHammerUh, reliable peeling has been at the core of these resin printers since the start. The less force that's used on the peel, the less force is exerted on the model and things like supports, etc. Don't you remember back in the late 2000s they used to use siloxane coated reservoirs for the release?

[@WiNNiep00h]

i want an app on my phone that alarms me when the print is finished. i think anycubic has this

[@FauxHammer]

That would be useful

[@ActualSizeTV]

Have you thought about doing a video on the Features you'd like to see in a 3D printer and what would be your perfect 3D printer? (with in reason of course) Would be cool to hear your complete thoughts on this subject.

[@FauxHammer]

I actually have yeah. But what I won't keeps changing.

[@S.A.S.H.]

Have you come to any conclusions, or closer to any on why the different between the new Saturn with ACF and this Mars 4 Ultra with ACF? Mine gets here tomorrow, and in part wondering if I should get ready to order a more clear film for it.

[@netnoob77]

As with Saturn 3, looks like the non ultra version is the one to get. It's unfortunate though that the non ultra versions still come with the ball joint system build plate. Like you, I much prefer the 4 screw system. That's my main complaint with my own Saturn 2. That and the fans that continue to run after the print is done.

[@smokehead5318]

In fans spinning case elegiac can provide You a chore that will turn them off. We can also go with ultra and change that ACF film ehh

[@netnoob77]

@@smokehead5318 yeah you can but why would one want to pay more and have to change a brand new FEP just to get the most out of the 9k screen?

[@smokehead5318]

@@netnoob77 Idk, because they do not think like they should from our perspective:)? There are x% of people that do not watch yt, just buying in rush probably.

[@FauxHammer]

Well, that’s more of a glass is half empty view. I’d say the better option is to get this and just replace the acf with PFA

[@ShinXyres]

While I don't have much interest in this specific 3D printer I am very interested in your resin. Can we expect a full review video of it?

[@FauxHammer]

I'll probably do an announcement video in the future to drum up more interest and understanding. But in sending it to other creators for their reviews. I can't really require something I have this much if a personal stake in and be objective.

[@awildtomappeared5925]

I have developed a system to render vertical AA to eliminate layer lines at 50um no blury acf needed. Better software is hugely underrated in this sector.

[@St0RM33]

link/more info?

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, link/more Info please? Vertically AA? How? Isn't that just image blur?

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer i think it might be an algorithm that applies grayscale AA on the outside edges only depending on the angle of the vertical surfaces..at least that's how i would do it

[@awildtomappeared5925]

@@St0RM33 It was a funky adaptive blur thing that did bigger blurs for bigger gaps betwen layer edges but I got rid of that in place with a system of actually slicing in blender and using a depth and normal pass to get perfect information for making gradients with the best possible sharpness and smoothness and accuracy.

[@St0RM33]

@@awildtomappeared5925 so you could just release it as a blender plug in?

[@petercallison5765]

The non-Ultra can be picked up at good discounts. The base models do not have the Fresnel lenses, and this might be the key difference, but I can find no confirmation. Anyone got an opinion or seen a review?

[@FauxHammer]

my review is up now for members and will be out on Tuesday, i have a comparison review coming shortly after.

[@nickg1688]

Hey, do you think in the Current Market this Printer Brand new with a Dead LCD + Replacement in Box is worth to Pick up for 135 Euro?

[@FauxHammer]

Honestly. I would t want to arse around replacing a screen if this was my first printer. If you know what you’re doing it seems fair. But I’d push you to get a larger printer 10” if you can

[@nickg1688]

@@FauxHammer WHich 10" printer woud you recommend?

[@teabagNBG]

im looking for a cheap printer wich is fast... this one looks good but ofr example if i print a round ball will it be smooth at the fastest speed?

[@JWbrasser]

My actual priority is RELIABILITY THEN QUALITY THEN SPEED... I have plenty of time for "turn it on and go to work" or "turn it on and go to sleep" i don't have time for "wake up to a failed print" If i can give up 2 to 3 percent surface finish for a printer that NEVER FUCKS UP EVER i am down for that exchange...

[@repenterepente5043]

Great video! I would love to see a video changing the fep and comparing with its little sister and big brothers before black friday :) This would help me make up my mind as having a different lens might make the results unsatisfactory. What do you think?

[@FauxHammer]

Hope you're subscribed then, because it's out tomorrow

[@repenterepente5043]

@@FauxHammer What great news! Of course, I was already for a long time! ;)

[@ThePhiphler]

I wonder what resolution is actually approriate for ACF printer, probaby something 6k or below. 8k or up the added quality is removed by ACF artifacting.

[@FauxHammer]

Exactly

[@juanpablolongo]

Nice video, I will buy my first resin printer. I’m not sure if buy the mars4 ultra or the anycubic m5s. Or do you recommend a different printer? I have only FDM printers. Thanks.

[@FauxHammer]

Saturn 3

[@juanpablolongo]

@@FauxHammer thanks for your reply, the bad thing is that is not listed in Amazon US I will be there in US in a few days and I need to buy it next week in US and bring it to my country Uruguay. In Uruguay I can not find those printers.

[@wildguardian]

Well, the good thing is that the acf film liners can be replaced... Bet everyone will replace it Also.. I think that this was already asked.. but I always wonder why do you put your resin into the vat like that... It never spilled? Even a drop?

[@TheBelrick]

I think we need the option. So both have their use

[@FauxHammer]

Agreed, the resin pour is just for cinematic efect

[@wildguardian]

Thanks! I won't do that then lmao.. I bought a saturn 2 recently as my first printer so I'm learning little by little.

[@wildguardian]

@@TheBelrickYeah I can imagine having a farm of printers and having a order coming up with a specific deadline then speed would be necessary for example..

[@FauxHammer]

@@wildguardian lol yeah, do what i say, not what i do.. lol

[@babbagebrassworks4278]

Water washable resins are now good enough, makes it more pleasant.

[@FauxHammer]

some are

[@ChuckleChuckleVision]

Whilst I can understand wanting to review exactly what you are given, I do feel by not testing the pfa on the ultra you are leaving the review a little incomplete. From what I can see the standard vs ultra video you've mentioned won't be a direct pfa vs acf comparison as the ultra has a fresnal lens and the standard does not. It might only be a tiny difference but surely it's worth exploring how much of a impact that fresnal lens will give?

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah I'll do that test too. I'll show what the mars 4 does in comparison to the Msr 4 ultra bad spend more time on the ultra with PFa instead of act. But I don't have I finite time and resources. I could change the act for pfa now. But them in wasting a merge toy good sheet of act. Or I could wait for my mars 4 and just use that vat in this In the mean time ill get on with reviewing the bother 7 printers I have sat here then the 5 more I have in the way. Between that I have work and a family. I understand you want to see that comparison and I fully Intend on doing it. I want yo see what it does too. But I only have so much time. I'm sorry.

[@ChuckleChuckleVision]

@@FauxHammerabsolutely no need to apologise! I've got a small business in the mini painting hobby myself alongside an erratic full time job. It's more then fair that you'd rather wait to do the comparison to ensure more efficient use of your time :)

[@Paul-mx9yr]

I know this is going to sound stupid since I’m just starting to use 3d printing but do you think that maybe the screen protector might have something to do with bad prints seeing that it’s another layer that light has to go through 🤔

[@FauxHammer]

Based n my testing on the M5S, I strongly doubt it.

[@scuzzy2142]

Where do I get the film sawp?

[@FauxHammer]

Anywhere that sells NFEp it PFa. Amazon

[@melch1]

Interesting, this or the Mars 4 dlp?

[@FauxHammer]

This, but change the ACF for PFA

[@Gregatron13]

I would love to see an ACF printer that is fast, still good quality, and has the conveniences like wifi, heated bed, splash protection, screen protector, and front usb. I doubt my eyes would notice the difference between 6k and 12k.

[@FauxHammer]

Wait a month 😉

[@pintandominisdejuegos]

I won a mars 3 pro on a painting contest, I was thinking on writing asking if I can pay the difference and get a mars 4, should i do that?

[@pintandominisdejuegos]

Normal mars 4, no ultra

[@FauxHammer]

Not tested the mars 4, but mars 3 is fine. If you win it I expect you can’t pay the difference, they’ll already have the unit

[@zior92]

Could you make a video about air ventilation? How to setup, what do buy etc.

[@FauxHammer]

If I ever under it myself. Sure

[@zior92]

@@FauxHammer Ah you dont have any? Not concerned about the vocs? Only reason I have not bought a printer yet.

[@horriblypink]

There is a "Your 3D Printer is killing you" video that covers this quite well. The title is a bit of an exaggeration. But that specific video goes into detail about ventilation set up, and air quality testers, which is industrial and until that video i haven't seen anyone use. Basically he found the "charcol filters" were all sold on for printing don't even work. They just reduce the small so we think the air is cleaner.

[@CaimZheit]

Since is an elegoo can't you just replace the acf for a PFA or a fep without having to replace the entire vat like the m5?

[@Colt3D25]

Yes you could do that

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah. You can. But I'm not wasting a perfectly good ACF film for the sake of that test. And I also don't have the time. Sorty This review is for this lribtsr. The Mars 4 review will be for that printer. The final comparison review will be doing these crossover tests. I appreciate people want to know now. But these videos also need to carmter for the people watching 6 months from now who just want to dive in in a particular printer it see the comparison. It will make sense in the end.

[@bremer1701]

so, which one to buy now? Ultra or normal.

[@FauxHammer]

your call. If you wnat all the feature of this and the detail of the 4, het this and change the ACF for FEP. if you don't need the features this has, get the cheaper one.

[@bremer1701]

@@FauxHammer hm. i think wifi is pretty cool. i could slice on my regular pc instead of my old laptop and sen the files directly to the printer in the first floor...

[@bensgizmo2960]

Great video again and interesting comments about the tradeoff of ACF lines and anti aliasing. When mine comes in this month it will be interesting to see how it compares my Mini 8k and phonton D2. One with ACF and switched to nfep. I have one model I cast where the D2 cannot reproduce the lettering but the mini 8k can. My guess is the acf on the 4 Ultra will be blurred out like the D2 but sharper than the mini 8k.

[@FauxHammer]

Interesting, is love don't be how this results. But I doubt your lettering will be both blurred and sharper.

[@bensgizmo2960]

@@FauxHammer Ment to say the ACF on the 4 Ultra will likely be blurred out but sharper than the mini 8k after switching to the fep. (Got sidetracked several times trying to write the initial comment) I have a different use case than most of your viewers. Using castable resins for jewelry. Casting quality stamps into gold. A 1 for a 14k stamp might only be 25-50 microns wide. Your videos give a perspective that's a little different than some of the other guys. I'm glad to see you and Vogman sharing some ideas. It helps the community as a whole. Keep up the good work!

[@samwilliams8327]

Can you just swap the release film?

[@St0RM33]

yes you can

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, easily

[@Silence-ug1jp]

My prints with the Mars 4 Ultra are clearly not as sharp as with the phrozen 12k even though the resolution is better. Even after switching back to nFep. Also the printer is faster than the prediction time of the slicer. Still trying to figure out what's going on. The print time is faster than theoretically possible. Maybe the printer or the GOO Format ignores light off delay? Would explain faster time and worse print quality. Anyone had similar experience?

[@FauxHammer]

I’m not sure about the sharpness. But this was my experience with the Mars 4 too. It’s not quite as sharp as larger 12k or even 8k printers

[@Silence-ug1jp]

​@@FauxHammer My 2 Hypothesis right now are: The printer ignores "wait before cure'" settings and the quality is due to resin still moving or it's the z-axis accuracy (Elegoo says it's only 0.02mm for Mars 4 Ultra compared to 0.00125mm for Mars 3)

[@FauxHammer]

@@Silence-ug1jp may want to consider your layer height then too. if for example you have .03 layers, then the printer will double cure some layers as it compensates for your 0.03 images but it is moving to 0.02, then 0.04 then 0.06 etc. your slices would want only 2 layers to teach that 0.06 layer height. and so you;d end up with variations of 0.02 layers and 0.04 layers as it goes through the print.

[@JC02102]

So... I gather these new printers still lose to the M3 Premium by not offering a big enough jump in quality in the face of its user experience and build quality? Sorry to be so fixated on that M3 in particular but I think you missed my reply on another video where I clarified I was asking how the M3 Premium overtook the Mini 8K S and D2 between June and July (don't blame you, there's probably a million better things to worry about). PS: Your list is still showing both the Mini 8K and the Mini 8K S with a Printing Volume Y dim of 720 (mm).

[@St0RM33]

mate that printer is double the price..

[@FauxHammer]

I did miss it, sorry. But it does explain the order at the top of that article. It used to be easy to break down that list. I would just break the list into categories like the 10” 28.5 in printers were all together and I just decided which if them was best. But now all these new ones are out like speed printers and the 29um printers and the different convenience features. It wasn't as easy because the results all changed. So I had to literally ask myself, for every printer, “would I rather use this, or one if those others when printing miniatures” I did that over and over until I had them all done. I'd rather use the GKtwo, in fact I do. Over every other printer. Andwhenni look back. Yeah if I didn't have a GKTWo, which printer of all those printers would I want to use. And it's the M3 Premium. When I reconsider the DLP, yeah they are sharp, but does that matter more to me than features on the printer. Is the output quality really wirtybnore than the usability, ui, convenience etc of other models. And the answer is no. I'm happy to sacrifice a little quality for a larger plate most of the time. Whilst I value quality. I also want to get on with actually having printed stuff. Hole that's clearer And thanks, I'll correct those articles when in home from Gen Con

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer why you like the gktwo so much? it's really expensive compared to competition

[@JC02102]

@@FauxHammer Appreciate the detailed response, cheers.

[@kkokook5654]

hello Hopefully there is a fair comparison between Elegoo Mars4_untra vs Phrozen Sonic Mini 8KS

[@St0RM33]

i wanted to see this but he spend half the video complaining instead of testing..

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, this is much worse in terms of quality. Please refer to my exposure test printed in this and on another 29micron printer. You can compare that to the one in my 8ks video and see this is worse.

[@FauxHammer]

Well I do the testing for several days before record it, and then use the footage to explain the problems. Was my complaint wrong? It's important to go over the detail of these new features because its a new concept and needs more detail in the explanation.

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer technically in theory now that i am thinking, you might get better edge resolution with a higher micron printer when both are printed on the same film; but the acf film might diffuse the light too much to not make any difference

[@DashMan-g7z]

Not impressed but a big shoutout to Elegoo for putting the USB port and power button on the front. Hopefully it'll be the gold standard from now on. I'm still saying this entire generation of printer is a beta test for the real lineup next year and I'm not just talking about Elegoo.

[@FauxHammer]

I agree with you on the beta test. And heah, well done Elegoo for putyi gbte USB port on the front. - even though we no longer need a USB port lol

[@coltb6021]

$90 CAD for your resin is not affordable, unless in Canada it'll end up being cheaper, when/if it is sold here.

[@FauxHammer]

Sorry, it’s the price it costs, we’d love it to be cheaper. But for this formula. This is what it costs us. We are looking to have wider distribution. But it will take time.

[@aleopardstail]

"speed" would be good if it was _seriously_ fast, as in full volume print in say 10 minutes - if it takes more than an hour it may as well take several as I'm not there watching it Elegoo Mars 3 here, its fast enough, it could be faster yes, but its fast enough, larger build plate and better detail matters more

[@FauxHammer]

Exactly

[@ToxicAtom]

Yeah, the ACF sucks, but I'd rather just have to replace the vat than having to replace the rest of the unit because all the other specs are crap. It would be nice if it came with PFA instead, but of all the things you'd need to replace, the vat is by far one of the simplest. It's like complaining your brand new corvette came with halogen headlamps instead of LED, and therefore the entire car is bad.

[@FauxHammer]

That would be a good analogy for this video except here I said the entire car is good but you need to replace the air filter because it’s a bottleneck for engine performance

[@ToxicAtom]

@@FauxHammer Much better analogy, I agree.

[@yk303kk]

if id care about speed i would be mass producing injection mold models. for home projects is quality im after

[@dougwhiddon8227]

I just bought 3 sheets of this for my Mega 8k. After 2 prints, I'm ready to toss all 3. 90$ down the drain. I just heard that it wouldn't stick as much and allowed faster prints. The first print already stuck worse, and that isn't even taking into account the quality issue.

[@FauxHammer]

Yikes! I'm about to test some in my Mighty 8k after i do the 12k upgrade kit. Wish me luck.

[@dougwhiddon8227]

@@FauxHammerMy 2nd print finished much better (did not stick to the film) but quality of the print is everything to me as I print minis. Still planning on replacing it.

[@canalfalamatheus]

Just found the suitable 3d printer for me

[@FauxHammer]

Hope this was helpful

[@rodrigolopezarechiga6557]

the antena goes inside the printer? The plastic will melt with the resin fumes....

[@FauxHammer]

I’m gonna assume this is sarcasm

[@rodrigolopezarechiga6557]

@@FauxHammerNo is not, if you leave all the time plastic stuff inside the printer, the fumes will start to melt the plastic, it happened to me with my original Elegoo filters, the white plastic startet to melt due to the fumes to the point where the button no longer worked, and the filter became sticky and shiny, i reported that to elegoo and they confirmed.

[@St0RM33]

@@rodrigolopezarechiga6557 yeah it's stupid design

[@BenGi551]

The point about Bambu Lab only advertising speed is nust wrong. The thing that made them so popular was their usability and convenience.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, but other brands don’t get that. Are you saying I’m wrong or agreeing with me because you’re making the same point I am

[@BenGi551]

​@@FauxHammer I would say I don't agree with saying the Bambu Lab was only advertised with its speed, but I strongly agree with your point about every manufacturer jumping on the same bandwagon. That said, i really don't get why there aren't more manufacturers (besides maybe the GKtwo) that try to copy the ease of use features from Formlabs printers.

[@techclub8528]

I don’t care about speed because I print over night, I prefer quality over speed. Who cares if it’s 5 hours or 8 hours I am asleep the whole time or at work

[@TheBelrick]

Faster speeds means longer life LCDs , more prints and less energy use The reason you print over night is because you had no other choice. Fast prints means actually now having a choice. Youre welcome.

[@techclub8528]

@@TheBelrick not true, as faster movement is just the release mechanism from the ACF not the amount of exposure time. The fast runny resin and ACF film just supports the movement up and down to be faster, the exposure is usually not far off a normal print

[@FauxHammer]

Exactly

[@FauxHammer]

Also, exactly

[@TheBelrick]

@@techclub8528 ACF is not the only speed factor as this channel showed.

[@thisisashan]

The real issue is that even if these venders offer PFA replacement vats, without properly updating the software or adding the option to switch, we will be left with overexposure for the first layers. And with resolutions as good as they are, tbh, at this point I am more interested in a setup that uses 2-4 DLP's/mirrors to get a large and fast print. Seems like all the 3d printer companies are under bad managerial direction

[@FauxHammer]

I do t understand how you would get overexposure on the first layers without a firmware change?

[@petercallison5765]

A lot of hate for the ACF but they do claim substantially less print failures.

[@FauxHammer]

Just a personal choice. And yeah less force required to remove layers would likely result in fewer fails

[@FauxHammer]

Just a personal choice. And yeah less force required to remove layers would likely result in fewer fails

[@dkev0]

$62 for a bottle of water washable resin. You must be high.

[@FauxHammer]

How can you say that if you haven’t used it and don’t know the properties. We are charging the bare minimum we can just to make it available?

[@dkev0]

@@FauxHammer We'll see what you all charge when it comes to the US. If it's $30 US, I'll try it. But not $60.

[@nikroth]

I agree, ACF goes against why a person buys resin printer. They should have ACF option, not default, for those who sell miniatures.

[@FauxHammer]

Hear here

[@magikarp2063]

You can just replace the film with a normal FEP and problem solved. The ultra version actually should get you higher quality resoults once you do that because it has a frensel lens unlike the regular mars 4.

[@petercallison5765]

In theory but I have not seen any proof.

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah, exactly right. I only learned about the fresnel lens differrnce after making the video

[@magikarp2063]

@@FauxHammer Its also the best point of comparison we have of how it affects prints. Saturn 8k and saturn 2 also had a different light source so not all difference in quality is necessarily from the lens.

[@FauxHammer]

@@magikarp2063 yeah now that I know this is there, I’m actually concerned the Mars 4 may read as worse than the Mini8k with softer edges. It wasn’t a huge deal on the sat 2 bs 8k comparison I did, but it was there.

[@Vikinggaming666]

Great video but can you please please PLEASE do a video of this elegoo mars 4 ultra with the ACF films first then swap it out for FEP and do a side by side comparison. EVERYONE is dying to see this test, and the amount of times you've said ACF makes the prints worse it's time to show the real life results of this variation. Not in a mars 4 the same printer the ultra that's what we want to see.

[@FauxHammer]

That’s the plan. When I get these printers. I’m here to review the printers I get. When I get a normal Mars 4, I’ll print with that, then use the Mars 4 vat on the ultra so I don’t waste an ACF film now.

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer ok but technically if you are careful can't you remove it and re-install it later?? (no experience with resin printers, looking now to buy one)

[@FauxHammer]

@@St0RM33 yeah I could, but I have 7 other printers here to review and 5 more on the way!

[@St0RM33]

@@FauxHammer well more videos, more views, more money to make haha

[@TheMoondougie]

@@FauxHammerdo you have an idea of what settings you’d change (and how much you’d change them) if printing on the 4 Ultra when using PFA?

[@esurfrider7687]

I picked up the mars 4 ultra, but I already knew I’d have to swap to pfa and I’m cool with that, if you print enough, you know how often you have to replace the fep anyway so it’s not terrible to have a speedy option for parts that don’t require the hi res.

[@FauxHammer]

Good shout

[@agentcee688]

I have an old Anycubic Mono still using its original FEP film after going through over 7 1000ml bottles of resin (or about 100 print jobs in my case). Applying PTFE dry lube to the FEP film every time you go through a bottle of resin significantly increases the lifespan of the film. I've since recently upgraded to the Anycubic Mono 2 and Anycubic M5s and expect those films to last quite a while too.

[@esurfrider7687]

@@agentcee688 I use ptfe lube too, but after a dozen prints the film starts to look like shit with splotches and whatnot that translates into the prints so as soon as I see deformation from the fep I swap em out though I suppose it could last much longer.

[@agentcee688]

@@esurfrider7687 I guess for what I print the condition of the FEP film isn't that important, it still prints with the quality I want. As long as it still works, that's all that matters, which in my case is a LONG time.

[@Keseleth]

That Wargamer resin looks intriguing, I wanted something ABSlike, but waterwashable. It's not sold in EU though, right?

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah that exactly what we wanted to put out there but also sharper that most abs like. Not in the EU yet, but we are trying. Only way to do it would be to import from Uk and prices would be insane

[@Keseleth]

@@FauxHammer looking forward to it. I am in a weird situation when I will live in UK for next 8 months, but my 3d printer is back in EU and sadly resin is not exactly something that one can take with them on the plane ;).

[@GeekDetour]

Excellent video Ross! My ideal printer is the Wifi and 4 Screws Leveling System from the Ultras - but installed with NFEP films.

[@Colt3D25]

Yes! Thats what I think I will be doing also.

[@FauxHammer]

Yep. I’m 100% with you on that.

[@davethepak]

Great review. Thanks for the warning about the ACF.

[@keithbrown8320]

The resin ain't that special, not worth the price. My friend bought it, so I gave it a try.

[@FauxHammer]

Ok, thanks for your review. Would love to know what you printedand what the issues were?

[@NickelKang]

That is a shame these ship with the cloudy FEP. At least it can be replaced but still a nuisance. I agree with quality over speed 100%. I would love to try the Wargamer resin but live in the US. I just picked up a Saturn 2 8k printer and was thinking about sticking to the phrozen 4k resin that I use in the Mars Pro 3. I am nervous about the 8k being too brittle based on your review and others. Whats your take on this for printing minis? 4k resin in an 8k printer?

[@FauxHammer]

Well 4k and 8k on resins are just marketing terms. It's just means higher detail, but normally at the cost of rigidity. Elegoo 8k space grey is a tad more flexible. Some people mix in so sirayatech tenacious with their 8k to toughen it up. I like anycubiv FLp craftsman's for it's sharpnes and strength. And some and resins are fairly decent, just not that sharp. Phrozen 4k is nice. In fact ours is kinda like phrozen 4k resin. But is also water washable. Which is probably why it costing us more

[@trainsstawell]

ACF is here to stay or something better then FEP. I went with speed over quality with my mage pro for model railway stuff in 1/87 scale. The loss of quality is not thay much to bother about, I know people that are happy with FDM printer quality. There is a market for both speed and quality printers.

[@FauxHammer]

I agree with you entirely. I think it's the marketing of these printers I have issue with. They all say, no quality loss with PFa and faster speeds That's a lie

[@edfhobbies556]

@@FauxHammer +1, Even some of the FDM printers lose strength with speed which is a non starter for me

[@nippuckz]

Would the reduced sucky force of acf film mean the ability to reduce supports/support contact size? The biggest downfall of resin printers detail is support damage

[@FauxHammer]

Yeah very possibly. But most stuff I print is presupported anyway.

[@edfhobbies556]

Yes, especially for larger prints ... ACF is a godsend for functional parts that need to be prototyped.

[@christophersteen1873]

Where do I get wargamer resin in the US without having to pay UK shipping?

[@FauxHammer]

It's only in the UK for now, sorry we will look to open up to worldwide shipping asap

[@sadwargamerAndy]

Just ordered 2kg of the Wargamer resin - as while I love using Phrozen 8k resin - its far to brittle for everyday use of miniatures, - so really looking forward to testing this wargamer resin

[@danyo41]

Thank you for such a great review. This is my first resin printer. I've watched a few videos to help me decide on what I wanted to buy, but ultimately, the popularity and a good sale is what determined my purchase of the Mars 4 Ultra. I just got it 3 days ago and really wish I had seen this video first. However, I think I'll like those added features. With a Wi-Fi FDM sitting beside my Mars 4 Ultra, it will be nice to keep everything in a separate area dedicated to printing. Hopefully there are non ACF options available now for this (This is my first time learning about ACF). I see this video is 9 months old so I will take a look at your channel to see if you've answered my question! Thanks again! Subscribed!

[@williamstevenson9480]

I have a Phrozen Mighty 8k and while I do print really amazing prints I would have to say for people wanting to print way bigger pieces with models that can take up several build plate space, Speed is indeed a factor. Reducing time by as much as 50% on a 9 hour print means I can finish models in one day instead of two. Maybe for minatures speed really isnt an issue because they dont use up as much time and space but for bigger prints not only does speed matter but also reducing the amount of failures which are less common in small minutures.

[@watsonstudios]

Maybe instead of chasing speed, how about they chase peel force! Peel force is the reason why you can't print technically accurate parts. A cylinder printed at a 45 degree angle is going to loose accuracy in the diameter and squareness because of the peel forces stretching and pulling on the part. Formlabs have a great solution but unfortunately can't be used with LCD printers. Having a tilting vat & screen would be a step up but that would increase costs. There is one LCD printer that has a tilting vat but can't remember the model.

[@FauxHammer]

I bet it can be done. But expensive To engineer

[@MarkusRe72]

Prusa SL1S

[@edfhobbies556]

Speed matters in production prints of functional parts where quality means accuracy and strength vs looks.

[@B3D]

speed is what i want. because normally we dont need that detail on the part. well possible for mega is good

[@calrak]

at 3:58 you say this printer has dual linear rails... I only see one rail.

[@St0RM33]

yeah it's only one rail..they should have spend the extra money adding one and shipping with pfa film instead

[@FauxHammer]

Sorry, I was trying to say “I’m not going to talk about (the usual crap I say in videos)” but looking back I can see how this seems like I’m suggesting it has dual linear rails

[@calrak]

@@FauxHammer Love your work - just thought I was missing something. I am in the market, so I am paying extra attention. I had preordered the Anycubic M5s, but cancelled. Just do not know what to do.

[@yipyipyipi]

I like the option of the new film, as i actually got some for my larger printer to have it run my terrain and will do small miniatures on the classic films in my smaller printers for precision. Its a great option, i just wish it was more clear to the customer what its good for.

[@wildguardian]

I think the reason behind this is that small business do care about print speed since even if they do have idle times with their printers.. they do work based on batched and orders.. and when they happen they have a deadline. imagine having a big order and being unable to fulfill the order because it's impossible to match a quota based on the printer speed unless you have to buy a new printer. And small business that can do this.. will buy more than one printer for their farms so.. it's a pretty important business as well besides hobbyists..

[@FauxHammer]

I get that, but I'd be more worried when that business hands out those fast printedcmodels and the client balks at the quality suddenly being far worse than what they had before.

[@krzysztofmathews738]

Interesting. This is the first I'd heard of the ACF films, but I too am more interested in quality over speed. I'm not trying to print in bulk quantity for commercial purposes..

[@FauxHammer]

Hope I explained it well

[@sugarandcyenide2084]

i def want print quality! and i HATE when printers have those fep sheets with plastic around them and you cant just unscrew it you have to buy the expensive packs of them which are just stupid. i can replace it myself..its barely less hassle and way more money for those things. also dislike the ball joint thing, ive had both my elegoos become loose when trying to level it..annyoing

[@ScytheNoire]

A few years from now we'll see everyone ditching ACF because it's horrible, speed isn't worth the loss of quality.

[@petercallison5765]

I expect they will have something better within a year.

[@FauxHammer]

Got, I hope it doesn’t take years, this is why I wanted to get out there now and state that it’s crap.

[@darthviciousness9948]

The screen is a consumable item. You’re going to have to replace it eventually. I popped a tiny hole in mine almost right away. I wish I would have watched this video before I bought FEP screens.

[@The-Anathema]

Frosted? That would diffuse the light so it'd reduce the quality, no? No thanks. FEP vs PFA makes sense because PFA is still clear, and releases better than FEP so it's "preferable" (with a small amount of caveats) but QUALITY? I mean maybe if I'm printing GIGANTIC things but no printer on market can print GIGANTIC things so what's the sell here? I don't want that. ACF might potentially help on a DLP printer because of the sharper layer lines, blurring might be useful here (and I say *might* because I don't actually know if the tradeoff is worth it). EDIT: I ought to add that this is obviously from the perspective of printing minis or other more artistic style prints, for functional prints this analysis is irrelevant.

[@gonzalokrosnyak245]

Industrial resin printers benefit from ACF-style film because of the lower pull forces needed to release. Speed can be one benefit, but the most important is that with lower pull forces, you can use less or thinner supports, you can successfully print unsupported overhangs at shallower angles and you get less distortion of the model during printing. unless you are in a super high-detail business like jewelry for example, that "texture" that ACF brings is not a bad thing and it contributes to a more consistent surface look and sheen around the part, eliminating that mirror smooth surface on the top of the prints when printed using FEP.

[@alanpreston1822]

Since I changed my M5S to standard FEP, I am not going back to the ACF. I would love to give Wargamer a try, but cannot find it stateside, and it seems a bit pricey compared to my SirayaTech Simple go to.

[@FauxHammer]

Thanks, great yo hear from people like you who have done this rather than people who just comment against this point and have never tried. Yeah it is expensive, sorry. But we feel it’s the best balance out there for miniatures and it’s easy to use with it being water washable

[@munias17]

Hi, do you mind solving some doubts? I'm new into 3D printing and I've pre-ordered the M5s. I'm a bit concerned since there are multiple videos praising it's printing quality, but I've also found the videos and analysis from FauxHammer in which says that the printing quality is not as good as the Phrozen Mini 8k, for example. I want to print wargaming miniatures and bits to do conversions and maybe some more bigger models or terrain. I've found that you are one of the few people that has changed the ACF for the FEP, and I was wondering if it really makes a difference in quality, or should I think about swapping to another printer with smaller printing area but smaller pixel size. Thanks a lot!

[@alanpreston1822]

@@munias17 the printer is great, but I am not a fan of the ACF film and I changed my FEP out. If you are printing miniature armies, you will want a medium format build plate ( M5, M5S, Saturn, Mighty 8k, etc). You can get more on the plate. If you are doing one off models, I would recommend going with the Elegoo Mars line (not the Ultra due to ACF film) or Mini 8ks for your first printer. The Mars 4 series has the smallest pixels at this time and Fauxhammer just put out a review. If you got the entry price on the M5S I would stick with it. You can always change the film if the ACF doesn't work for you. That is what I did. I highly recommend Siraya tech Simple water washable to start. It is an easy resin to deal with and has a good price point with great results. The is also a great Reddit community building up for the M5S at r/AnyCubicPhotonMonoM5s.

[@BloodFlameKnightOnHisWay]

ACF work best for large model because you can use lesser support, less support mean less bumpy surface and easier for post processing, sure you will sacrifice some micro detail, but what is the point of having sharper detail if you'll have to sand it later to smooth support's marks. Also multipart model can fit easier due to less distortion/warp.

[@Colorcrayons]

So basically, from a miniature wargaming perspective, this means it is the best option to print all of your terrain in resin. Especially since most terrain lack large swathes of smooth surfaces. Which when viewed in that light, is not a bad thing at all. This just needs to be effectively marketed for such projects, instead of allowing users to assume they are getting the best resolution on this screen than any other printer, when the OEM ACF is getting in the way of that. Thus, it's only drawback, is Elegoo's lack of effective communication of that quality to consumers. This very well may be one of the resin printers where you would really want two separate resin tanks. One with ACF, and one with FEP, to get the best of both worlds for just the cost of merely one additional tank, rather than the cost of an additional printer... Perhaps this may yet turn out to be a hot ticket item afterall.

[@tirinoarim]

Own a Mars 4 Ultra, purchased a Mars 4 Tank for it (same size/shape, just FEP instead of ACF) and the prints are visibly better. No going back for me now.

[@Mariedu01]

Hello, can the chitu system mini heater be installed in an Eligoo mars 4 ultra? thank, i hesitate because i don't know the chitu heater work with elegoo MARS 4 ULTRA

[@FauxHammer]

Hmm probably. Functionally at least. I don’t have either of these to hand to test the space