Elites Are Broken AF in Kill Team?

[@GlassHalfDead]

Want Kill Team Objective Markers and other cool things go here: www.etsy.com/shop/crossfiregames/?etsrc=sdt&coupon=GLASSHALFDEAD24 And check out the Prague Open for KT November 2-3: www.gamemat.eu/en/tickets/early-bird-kill-team.html If you like what I do, check out my Patreon: www.patreon.com/GlassHalfDead My HOW TO PLAY KILL TEAM Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z56zgKOudpumrqc&t

[@MushieNino]

"I am coming to a point, oh wait no I'm not." Truer words.

[@Locoantropologo]

Direct buff to elites - Elites went to 14 - A lot of elites can ignore one level of piercing - Free doble shoots, doble fight Direct nerf to others - Nerfed plasma, specially on hot - Overwatch improved to counteract - Nerfed kraks grenades - 3 Objective markers RIP Vet Guard

[@kristiankarlsson2116]

- Would also add Astartes being able to counteract while Concealed.

[@tiberiumnp8030]

Intercession squad was already really strong and yeah certainly feels even better now.

[@honeybadgerking1160]

SM sniper is one that has not been nerfed as most others can only shoot once on conceal. SM sniper cannot be touched if on a small vantage point as only way to fight him is in close combat. He can shoot twice per turn, 3 with counteract so can kill 3 models per turn with no way to respond.

[@honeybadgerking1160]

Also the teams that have specialist demo models, all of these have been nerfed, usually damage loss and also much shorter range.

[@Mr281560]

Yeah, they beat the other teams into the Bedrock and lifted Space Marines up to the stars.

[@apatureemployee25]

At time of writing i've played 4 games of KT. Game 1: SM vs DG was like chess with dice RNG. 10/10 great time. came down to 1 point in the end Game 2: DG vs Kommandos. DG systematically deleted orks 1 by 1 being able to move / flank / shoot / counteract to finish off survivors while orks could barely scratch them (many rules checks because it was a one sided massacre) Game 3: Kommandos vs SM. See previous game (opponent questioned if we went wrong somewhere because it was a slaughter) Game 4: Kommandos vs Rouge traders. once again chess with dice rolls, trading pieces having a great time I think at the minute there are two versions of kill team, Elite vs elite and everyone else and these two DO NOT MIX

[@briantesterman5778]

Played Warpcoven today, they felt extremely overpowered. Rubrics ignoring Piercing 1, having a 2+ save, and 14 wounds is just nuts

[@IgnacioGlezCllo]

I’ve only ever played two games with my son, and even I can tell those numbers are mental

[@ttoo1830]

And with 3 sourcerers it is fun

[@teejay1646]

That save is going down for sure

[@thewovenmantis6813]

Plus (Fate Itself is My Weapon), (All IS Dust) Temporal and/or Destiny Sorc... bro I can practically do whatever the fuq I want - my dudes just don't die.

[@Dyx_DeTcTBa]

@@IgnacioGlezCllo Fella, I`ve just got into Killteam and assembled Kasrkin as my first ones. I only saw friends play two matches. And even I'm reading stats of that Astartes kill teams learning potential adversaries and thinking, WTF? Did the GW unintentionally spill the list of all possible buffs on them? Somehow even managing to contradict the lore of Orks (on the example of Komandos) being quite a resilient species with 10 wounds generally, while astartes are on 13+ in addition to 3+ saves (the latter is fine due to power armor, but not in combination). I`d expect that stats to bros in terminator suits no less.

[@keresadministratum5008]

You know after playing my angels of death a few times, versus non elite teams it really does feel like they are overperforming. HONESTLY I would be perfectly happy with my angels of death going to 5 man teams. Currently I have yet to lose a game with them where I was playing half brain off, and my opponent stressing with each action. Every victory has felt hollow and unearned. I Love my marines so much lore and theme and they are my main tabletop force, but.... I also want something thematic, fun and challenging.

[@GundamReviver]

Elites are strong because of the removal of AP spam, but they really shouldn't have more than 12 HP, the game breaks a bit when you go higher, see also custodes which don't exist anymore. But the same tactics you needed against them, you need against marines. (focus fire, don't spread yourself out KILL one/two at least as soon as possible) But there are reliable tricks. Only start shooting with operative 3-4+, and make sure they can't shoot you before then. Makes the elite player basically forced into doing stupid shit, and thus get killed.

[@RebelHound]

smart trick, thanks

[@Dyx_DeTcTBa]

IMHO - either drop to 10/11 wound count OR two shoot/fights must cost 3 AP with the second similar action costing +1 AP.

[@ddavis221]

In my short experience with GW they seem to not know how to make subtle changes to try and balance a problem. Elites were underpowered relative to hordes in 2nd edition. So they buffed elites, cut the number of primary objectives in half, buffed overwatch/counteract, and nerfed horde teams ranged killing power. They could have done 2 of these 4 things and we would probably be in a good place. But instead they did all 4 and swung the problem all the way around to be hordes are underpowered relative to elites in 3rd. And arguably the problem feels worse than last edition because in our below average group elites could still beat hordes in 2nd edition. So you are correct there are 3 game modes now elite vs elite (great game), rest vs rest (great game), and elite vs the rest (bad game).

[@DarkestDaemon]

So glad a content creator finally made this. Thank you!!

[@JimCrimmins]

If playtesters are all highly skilled, that's a terrible functional play test. In order for playtesting to have any validity, it should include everything from complete newbs that you hand a rulebook to, to hardened veterans and all groups in between. Only then can your sample games mean anything. My experience with GW is that their playtesting even on main line games like 40k is pretty bad. This leads to quick rules changes when broken stuff gets published and the volume of plays skyrockets. Generic boardgames get far more play testing these days imo.

[@ezekyleabaddon330]

They cant be highly skilled, the teams rules looks like they are not even playtested. A simple read by anyone shows the blantant imbalances.

[@piotrjeske4599]

Yes, but the playtesters want the game to be fun for them and not for some low skill casuals.

[@cryer3160]

Played Legionaries for 3 matches yesterday. They are depressingly oppressive against 8 wound teams. A relatively new player came with Kasrkin and left pretty sad. It aches my heart. The ability for Tzeentch to guarantee 2 crits if you use tainted bolts and Chaos Talisman even if you miss all your shots is just broken. and 2 crits from a bolt gun is 8wounds, that fires twice.

[@Luvulong]

Fun is leaving the room.

[@jamesreed2475]

Elites were overcooked. The change to objectives was probably enough to bring them even with good teams. Then they kept spoiling them like grandma's only grandkid. Adjustments will need to be made.

[@johnbeaudoin7820]

I’ve only played one game of KT24 thus far, resulting in a tie between my Wyrmblade and a friend’s Nemesis Claw. My friend made a few mistakes, and if he hadn’t, there’s a good chance I would have gotten stomped.

[@Brewsters-Minions]

"This ain't it Chief" It most certainly is - The video that needed to be made. Whilst all other content creators are circle jerking off to Marines, you told it Real. Thanks Andy - Xenos in the House

[@WokeWinner69]

No this video shouldn’t have been made it will only put new people off from trying the game, we should be positive and encouraging to make this hobby grow as much as possible this is just making more reasons for haters to hate Games Workshop which we should all be against

[@opfragile]

@@WokeWinner69 No. The thing that puts new players to Kill Team off of Kill Team is not a fictional enemy force that despises Games Workshop and threatens to destroy them, it's new players to Kill Team wanting to try a team they find interesting and cool, running up against Space Marines that swirlie them, and then go "Damn, this sucks." and decide they don't care about Kill Team anymore.

[@Luvulong]

Elites are stupidly strong. Counteract is making non elites trash

[@johnnnysilverhand9819]

What are the good tips for kasrkins vs elite? Im going Kasrkin first and foremost

[@TabletopImpulse]

Hey Andy, I agree with a lot of what you say. I am pondering if you have played much with the 11+ model teams. I haven't! But one Hypothesis rattling around in my head is that partally the problem is just that the teams in the "precisely 10 models" bracket are bad. Some of the hordey teams are being talked up by other talking heads. Also, if we are talking about classes of Team - are Necrons an Elite Team?

[@sonocontrariato3976]

I would say no, they did not get any of the direct buffs the elite teams got. No counteract while conceal, no hp buff, no double shooting.... They have 1 elite model, but that's not enough

[@auradmg]

The problem with playing hordes into Elites is that the idea should be, you overwhelm them with superior numbers and more activations but the reality is that the average Astartes can reliably kill 2 or even 3 8-wound enemies per turning point. The combination of 3APL, double shoot and unrestricted shooting in Counteract is unarguably better than anything that any other team can do. Tying them up in engagement is pointless because they fight better than the average Horde model so it's easy enough to kill it and still have 2APL left to move and shoot, then shoot again in Counteract.

[@Luvulong]

@@auradmgyeah. Now think about rubics with a 2+inv save in Addition to what you just wrote.

[@TheGreatWolf44]

You should give a newb marines and play them using a “weak” team over on Tactical Skew ™️

[@thekrispiestkreme5609]

When talons of the emperor comes back I look forward to the ‘hyper elite teams have a skill issue’ video

[@andreashuber5594]

Andy, you ALMOST got it and then just dropped it WHY is "every" elite into a regular team broken, but phobos (who are elites obviously) suck? What exactly is the difference there? Because whatever it seems to be HAS to be the difference between being broken and being somewhat balanced into other teams. This also means that it doesn't mean it's impossible to make 6 man elites balanced but it means that all the current elites are badly designed/balanced currently. I would love you going into detail on this topic, seems you have good insights on that!

[@SmallHatLogan7709]

How are you supposed to do damage to Warpcoven Rubricmarines with 2up save+ignore piercing when hitting on 4+? The new teleport with the flamer was also "fine".

[@thewovenmantis6813]

Warpcoven Player Here: You don't. Between Destiny & Temporal Sorc, Fate Itself is My Weapon, & All Is Dust, they feel practically invincible. Haven't played against Warpcoven yet, but when going into elite teams, it feels super necessary to cede the board turn 1 to the Elite player, and try your best to set up a 3-4 man focus-fire on a single model. Only strategy that's worked for me so far.

[@Wi11iamNZ]

Astartes Sniper - can shoot 3 time per turn, hitting on 2's, piercing 1, devastating 3, can ignore obscurity, 7" movement, ignores saturation fire against it, can auto retain 2 saves if in cover or one save + crit save if stacking stealthy trait....all whilst concealed. Does this not seem a little over the top?. I played a game against my friend today and sure enough he just parked up in the back corner on a vantage point which happened to have cover. Was the most cancerous time ever.

[@Optix334]

The Eliminator is very toxic, to be clear, but lets not exaggerate. The 3 shots cost him 3 actions, so he can't ignore obscuring and do all of that. Giving him concealed position would make him very good, but much less toxic.

[@Wi11iamNZ]

@@Optix334 Yea I was more or less meaning that this one operative has access to all these benefits. You think having him concealed makes him less toxic?...I disagree. It basically encourages players to camp him somewhere another player can't shoot back. Also his camo cloak/stealthy kit doesn't seem very well thought out. If he is concealed somewhere nobody can shoot him what's the point?. I don't see any scenario where he would be, engaged, out in the open, or someone getting vantage on him for this kit to come into play

[@thewovenmantis6813]

@@Wi11iamNZ A sniper character works best when he's camped somewhere he can't be shot at!? What!? Crazy talk! Still hate that f*cking model though. Damn Eliminators.

[@xxalsinusxx2038]

I've loved the 5 games I've had into Marines so far with my Votaan. Grudge tokens, piercing and the Lokatr's pan spectral token has made setting up kills on Marines really easy. It takes about 2 activations to kill 1 guy but that makes sense when I have almost double the models. I only own Votaan so I can't say how other teams are overall, but I've been feeling really good so far with them into elite armies. I think more time and games need to go by, we all need to get used to our armies and learn their tricks before just blanket saying "nerf the things I'm struggling into". This isn't me saying they're perfect and don't need adjustments, but I think all the calls in the comments to nerf guns and health and saves and double shoot just feel vindictive and not constructive.

[@Mr281560]

Agreed! The nerfed the crap out of that Magna Rail though!

[@andrewgallagher7690]

Hearthkyn Salvagers has always been good at killing elite teams. The biggest difference is that the teams that couldn’t kill elites could try to beat them by playing the objectives. Now that there’s fewer objectives, and a third or more of your score is based off of killing, these teams have very few options against elites. Even still, some teams that could fairly reliably kill elites now can’t because some elites have innate ignore Piercing (Thousand sons), and most gunner options have been nerfed across the board. All teams that hit on 4+ basically can’t kill them any more, as all their best tools have become worse.

[@aleczandergordon1298]

I hate GW for what they have done to KT. They built a fantastic game and made it so mindless and stupid, just about killing, no playing the game tactically anymore. They had so much time to balance elites. They should all be 5 operatives and they would still be meta picks!

[@davidwheward8081]

Maybe Space Marines should only be able to shoot/fight a total of two times in an activation but let them "save" one of them to counteract with.

[@chrishoj5277]

Played a game as marines vs. cult. I was the marine player with a non optimized squad because I was missing a sniper eliminator and just ran an extra warrior assault intercessor. Aggressive and duelers. Tabled cult player on turn 3 but on end of turn 2 he had 2 guys left both injured. I think the final was 15 or 16 to 2. I’m not good, I’m a blood angels player.

[@retnuHDJ]

I think part of the issue there is also that Chaos Cult got nothing but nerfs going into this version. I think they are in contention for worst team in the game right now.

[@ChaosMieter]

comment for the comment god, engagement for the engagement throne

[@hadincooper2118]

Wild. Did you already know about the new kill team box when you made the video? Spot on prediction and a perfect time to talk about it.

[@GlassHalfDead]

DG getting their own team is news to me, for sure! I mean, I think I might just only play elites. Screw it, it's fun to play them!

[@cheesychimps6423]

Wasn’t there a rumor that elites would become 5-man teams this edition? Could’ve done that with marines and it totally makes sense since they also run at 5 models minimum when playing big hammer

[@archangle2988]

The Matched Play Rules only allow team sizes from 5-14, so we know there cant be 15 operative teams anymore. What team they plan to use the 5 on is anyones guess at this point.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Part of the problem is that they really emphasized removing models as a win condition.

[@IgnacioGlezCllo]

I mean, it’s called KILL Team

[@earnestwanderer2471]

It was, I thought, a game about a SpecOps team going in to perform a mission. Eliminating the enemy was a means to an end not necessarily and end in itself. (Headhunter, Eliminate Guard, etc aside) I liked that you could table the opponent on turn 4 and still lose... because the opponent was playing the mission while you failed score VP’s because instead of tapping points you were removing models.

[@Granite-ny8up]

​​@@earnestwanderer2471this is still a thing in the dossier campaign missions. There are no Ops, just a win/lose condition for each player

[@BlommaBaumbart]

@@Granite-ny8up What do you mean by dossier campaign missions?

[@Granite-ny8up]

@@BlommaBaumbart there are narrative missions in the separate Hivestorm book (dossier) that don't use any of the Ops scoring (no tac ops, no kill ops, no primary op etc.) You only have a win or lose victory condition based on the mission

[@oerbek]

Nice to see you plugging the Prague open, although it is a shame you cannot make it. As to the main point of the video - I have not played enough games into Elites to see if what you are saying is true or not. Fundamentally it is to be expected that with a new edition, balancing is much much harder. So many changes, both to all teams but also the core rules mean, that we are essentially in an open beta phase. It is good you are giving this feedback and I hope GW figures out a way to gather more feedback, e.g. via a scoring app that allows us to submit results so they can get a better sense of the casual meta. But hopefully in a month or so they will put out an FAQ and a few early balance changes and we can see where this is at. As your video says: not all elite teams are broken. If phobos are not - then there is reason all elite teams have to be in this edition.

[@thewovenmantis6813]

I love my TSons, but Warpcoven definitely feels nuts. 2+ saves, Fate Itself is My Weapon, All is Dust, Destiny Sorc; my dudes feel f*cking invincible. I can practically just walk up the center of the board.

[@damiankirstein3311]

Why do you suggest that Phobos is the only elite team that is not OP? Because of lack of wounds buff?

[@celticbear714]

It's funny cuz Mountainside just released a batrep of Hand of the Archon against Nemesis Claw and the drukhari won handily

[@chromarush1749]

I was able to do fine running corsairs into legionaries. I think the elite teams needed the buff, but the problem is how many horde teams got kinda nerfed. Only super elite leaning matchup I've seen was Vespid into Nurgle legionaries, since they can just spend their Icon Bearer's CP every turn to completely ignore the Piercing.

[@fabiandick3448]

Corsairs seem super good into elites - having basically tabled Angels in a few games I've played. Fusion Pistol and Wraith cannon with support can both one shot them reliably with good setup. Most teams however don't have access to P2, reroll support, and pseudo 3 APL.

[@chromarush1749]

@@fabiandick3448 I mean. In that vein though. The other elf teams do just get 3apl. And I guess if you count them as elites maybe the point stands.

[@fabiandick3448]

@@chromarush1749 But no AP. Don't expect Blades to do well at all right now, especially into any 6 man teams.

[@chasewaterman4534]

Favorite rant-vod so far, Spicy 🔥🔥

[@GlassHalfDead]

I need to do more rant videos where I'm standing up. It feels much more lively and active (at least for me, doing it) than when sitting down at my comp.

[@aleksubnet6836]

You have no idea how much joy you bring every video mate

[@-TheMachineGod-]

I'm surprised Custodes never got brought up in this video, I don't play kill team, but Custodes are the most elite and unkillable faction other than maybe knights in big 40k, so I'd assume they would be even harder to kill in killteam because you don't have vehicles with super heavy weapons to take them down

[@GlassHalfDead]

Easy answer: Custodes don't have a kill team in this edition :)

[@hvn7erx]

Look at this nice setup sir. Also, glad someone talked about this.

[@jonrollason5709]

I must admit, Ive played one game with Phobos and they felt really strong. Too early to tell as we were feeling our way a little, but strong. Phobos could never deal with 'proper' elites, and I'm very sure they still can't. But the current tune felt vicious into Blooded.

[@GlassHalfDead]

@@jonrollason5709 mmm yes I saw your post on the FB group. In fairness I do spend the first quarter of the video on provisos about this is all entirely based on my own experience. I'm not even trying to extrapolate out into a wider issue. I played a bunch of elite matchups and this is what I saw. It could swing either way as people learn the game. I mean obviously I think I'm right otherwise I wouldn't have made the video, but I'm ready for it to just be noob mistakes

[@Bassoid]

Glass ! wouldn`t you say that by the end of the past edition it was a bit the other way around ? Meaning everything else >>> elites ? Also, Is there any defining feature in the edition that would be the culprit of this lack of balance ? (My thought is 3 points as main mission instead of 5) I played phobos for this last year and got my ass handed almost every time, very glad to see my team still sucks (so I`ll be patiently waiting for your "why phobos sucks" video :). Kudos from Argentina !

[@peterkukk5425]

And if they were bad inthe past edition then its justice? Or what?

[@Bassoid]

@@peterkukk5425 no no, I genuienly ask if he thinks that way... I've had my fun and played a lot with vetguard so im not an "only elites" player!

[@SmallStorms]

They were underpowered due to some core mechanics like the 6 objectives and the number of activations, yet nemesis claw performed very good in the ending of last season and warpcoven too, was a difficult team to manage, but could give satisfaction. Phobos were good , legionaries and intercessor (AoD) struggled a bit in the end, but they definitely had their glory at the beginning of the edition.

[@Thorgrimm]

The matchup of non-elites vs elites on paper, is hideous. So much so I didn't even want to feed my Hunter Clade into the Elite woodchipper today. Hopefully a balance patch will hit and sand some of the rough edges off. Elites getting buffed on every level and the rest mostly getting some knobs twiddled should have sounded some alarm bells.

[@retnuHDJ]

I haven't had a chance to play a game of the new version yet, but just looking over the rules for the teams I think it's been blatantly obvious that elites are going to dominate. Faaaaar too many changes were made in favour of elite teams.

[@piedpiper1172]

Well, time to convert a Sisters of Battle sniper and run them as angles of death I guess. Not having miracles will suck, but at least I’ll like my models.

[@tsquare2654]

The meta line crossed me! Was so excited getting my Warp Coven together! And none of my friends (understandably) wanna play against them

[@HeyU808]

I would really love a Video about „Skill expression“ in kill team. (4:10)

[@batonemo6096]

Bone-a-ronied. But also, all true.

[@EvilBearSkirmish]

please do a phobos vid please

[@theredxyeah6026]

I played Phobos in 3rd. I enjoyed them very much. Why do you think they suck now?

[@Unemployed_Bot]

Did you mention a couple videos ago that you were going to post one on how to build the marines to have each elite?

[@GlassHalfDead]

@@Unemployed_Bot yes! I have the list and my models next to me ready to record. Just not quite sure exactly how I'm phrasing things and exactly what the title is yet

[@Unemployed_Bot]

​@GlassHalfDead Awesome, I thoroughly enjoy when you aren't super scripted and randomly ramble, hahahah. I'm looking forward to it. "Finger Guns"

[@nemodemigodofstuff6373]

I’d like Elite teams to be balanced, but also fix my Gellerpox while they’re at it to pls XD

[@vinterbjork4128]

Speaking of balancing out, Elites was bad last time around and now they are good, so on average they are average ;)

[@DarkestDaemon]

This is like saying counter racism is okay. Balance is independent to revenge.

[@konstasalminen1516]

As a Vespid owner this sounds like a good excuse to buy an elite team 🧐 Then I can run Elites against elites, and Vespid against everybody else.

[@elyahmartin4839]

Skill Issue But also, can you make the phobos vieo? They're my favorite team and I would love to hear your thoughts

[@Asgk720]

This is for the algorithm. All hail the algorithm.

[@RanVor]

As someone who is just getting back into KT after skipping the previous edition and starting with Mandrakes (not finished yet, so no experience whatsoever), I'd really like you to clarify what you meant when you said Mandrakes are broken. I would genuinely like to know what kind of experience I can expect playing them.

[@thewovenmantis6813]

Mandrakes are a blitz team. They deal high damage (and opponents don't use regular defense against their ranged attacks), but die just as easily, so the focus is on staying hidden until they pop something. They're unique, but I can see why they'd be frustrating to play against for non-elite teams.

[@RanVor]

@@thewovenmantis6813 That's what I wanted to know, thanks!

[@steffenrichter7470]

The algorithm demands

[@linfameux834]

Bravo pour la vidéo, super contenu. Thx, lov u ❤

[@TheSotai]

Elites are only a problem, if you don't play elites, lol

[@Riddler_von]

Can I take an odd team and try stuff the rules kind of don’t recommend. Meaning can I play over rules and dive into random chances because I’m good at real tactics???????????

[@Granite-ny8up]

Would appear that based on heresay like this that marine teams were envisioned as 5 operative teams - suspect it would've been decried as 'elites are totally nerfed now' if they did it from day one.

[@naitp]

The broader perception seems to be that all elites are now OP, which really puts me off playing them. I'm an average player and mostly just trying to make sure my opponents (often less experienced and newer players) have a good time. It's interesting that you say Phobos is awful. I took Fellgor into them on a gallowdark board (and was feeling pretty confident because I'd read the new rules and played lots of Phobos in KT21), but they surprised me. I got crushed!

[@praetoraaron2966]

Clearly it is to push new players towards space marines and once they have gotten enough boxes to field the variants of the angels of death kill team they will buy in to 40k 😆

[@Coalcrafter1999]

I knew Phobos started sucking when I swiped a fully painted team on EBay for cheap

[@robertchmielecki2580]

I consider this version of the game a not-so-stealth beta test, so I hardly pay any attention to what is good or bad now, or my results. I think it makes sense to do things like faction reviews (not that any "reviewer" has had enough time to really play enough games to review any team in an informed way) or tier lists only after the game has settled after first waves of buffs and nerfs. For now it's a short, temporary state of KT that will just exist for a couple of weeks and then be forgotten.

[@roweyboi]

Great ramble on Elites, a lot of stuff i didnt think about

[@amehdaus]

I would be curious to hear your take on what might give the normal teams the edge to compete with the elite teams. Would a global buff against elite teams help, some battlefield-themed advantage, or what knob might be tweaked to bring the fight better in line for the average players bouncing against each other.

[@thewovenmantis6813]

Going from 8 -> 9W on smaller models and 14 -> 12 on elites would probably help. The amount of double-tap 4 damage kills I've gotten is high.

[@Donk_and_GrueKG]

Played my first game of phobos as my first game of the new edition. Seemed quite fun however being able to do order shenanigans only if you spend CP was odd.

[@pajamawashere]

Comment for the Comment god, words for the word Algorithm.

[@asmcelhinney]

Please book a quaterly reminder to return to this topic and see how true it still is.

[@orcsword]

Played Commandos today against legionaries. More than half of my team was killed in the 1st turning point. The last one was killed in the beginning of 3rd. I killed only one guy :))

[@Kingofdahobos]

Did you go all engage t1?

[@robertchmielecki2580]

How come!? Legionaries do not have that much access to Seek. They can't charge you TP1 too, unless you really let them - but why would you with no scoring TP1.

[@Mr281560]

He is an Ork player. He went in there charging!!

[@Klierowski]

Then it means you played really, really badly. How could you have 5 of kommandos who love to be in conceal? They were shooted in the 1st round, lol

[@robertchmielecki2580]

@@Mr281560 But a Kommando player should go in sneaking! Maybe it was a perfect shot against a terribly misplaced Squig? Or terribly set up terrain - during last edition I have seen a lot of YT channels playing on abysmal boards with Vantage Points in Drop Zones and only Light Cover in the middle.

[@braben211]

Yesterday i play with deathkorps against Space Marines. My opponent is bad in kill team, but tables me in round 3. The only Time you can score is turn one, but you can‘t do it anymore. After Turn 2 the space marine stand on all objectives and can‘t be killed.

[@TheCoffeeCreative]

It's annoying I waited so long for Space marines to be good. And now they will probably be nerfed :(

[@jeffreywelch9360]

I love game mat EU. Having the Deployments on the MAT is amazing.

[@GlassHalfDead]

@@jeffreywelch9360 it was their 40k pariah nexus deployment maps they made me reach out to them!

[@CasanisPlays]

I am just about to buy a box of Phobos...what's wrong with them?

[@GlassHalfDead]

Right now, Phobos are fine. They're the worst of the elite teams, but they're still a good team. I would imagine that if elite teams get a nerf, Phobos won't!

[@ayonmetar2301]

Comment for the algorithm: If I mute your video and lay a fast rap song over your hand gestures, you look like a bald eminem. Also: Thanks for the video =D

[@luenarturoho1385]

Sorry if i dont get it. But are phobos op or bad??

[@jamesdo3086]

Bad. Very bad. (Relatively).

[@NotDogman]

Heres a comment demanding a phobos review

[@jamess405]

I feel like they probably don’t need the shoot and fights twice. I’ve been playing AoD and if you’re into say guardsmen you can probably kill one with your first round of shooting and a decent chance of a second round

[@nolader28]

Of all people, the xeno simp started talking about the problem first. Appreciate it, man

[@foomansam]

please elaborate more on phobos - do the other vid! (i just played them in my first game of the new ed)

[@aardvarkpepper7660]

If I understand correctly, the "skill issue" is identified as a problem as low-skill players will lose with armies that require high skill, leading to various issues. Unasked and unanswered, though, what proportion of players will quit, rather than learning to get good with their team? What factors determine whether a player will stick with a team and learn it, as opposed to quitting?

[@GuyRiessen]

At least, as explained, it was upperMid-skill players with non elites will lose to low-skill players with elites, always. That's a problem because not many players advance beyond the upperMid level with only a tiny percentage ever playing at a competitive level/format. That just lowers the fun-factor for a lot of players, which will, as you point out, lead to some percentage of them leaving the game at least for awhile

[@Strix451]

Doing my comment duty, all praise the algorithm.

[@LeeBrandona]

I just decided to play elites, because playing hordes is just not fun anymore tbh. Nemesis Claw and Legionaries are just bullies. Hate playing against them.

[@piotrjanbukowski6252]

You're right, so now we can drink something and think about hobbits and thier killy skill to eliminate elites.

[@grisch4329]

We need to start using handicaps like golf.

[@SPACENOMADMALEV]

What are the chances that .. they just say 'And 6 PHOBOS STRIKE TEAM operatives' ?? Would 1 more Phobos body make a difference??

[@willj478]

I like this video, its just stressful, theres nothing on the walls or table. It looks like you just moved into your purple bachelor pad😅🤷‍♂️

[@Riddler_von]

I always play on any size board and as many turns an evening has to offer

[@KT-pl5qy]

Skill issue, good video man, totally agree.

[@eric_intotheunknown]

On the other hand, a 1/2 Elites + 1/2 non-Elites kill team could make for a really fun co-op game!

[@RobertN734]

Skill issue (not really). Honestly, I felt this coming since Intercession dropped last edition. Their winrate seemed mediocre because it was diluted by bad players, but that faction gate-kept the vast majority of teams. Elites weren't bad last edition, because "elites" was only 3 teams and weren't top of the meta. There were a half-dozen newer, more broken teams, and then Intercession and Legionaries kept every other team out of contention. If Marines are the top meta, then *nobody* else gets to play. And boy howdy, literally every change in 3rd Ed. benefited Marines.

[@piotrjeske4599]

GW games are always like that . There are the good factions , who play their own game, and then there is the rest who are happy, if their army/faction functions at all. X months will pass, new seson will start and marines will suck.

[@marcog7442]

Agree.:. But it’s not unintentional: did you bought the hordes killteams last season?, now go out and buy the elites

[@ronaldramsey7736]

Cheers mate. Let that hate out

[@pyroshadow33]

elites were fucking awful last edition so i dont mind them being good now, there's just a few outliers namely legion. the AoD eliminator also could be tuned down a bit so that there's an actual decision to make when considering the heavy bolter

[@Riddler_von]

Let me know when there is an 54mm inquisitor tournament?

[@Riddler_von]

Why can’t I Yes I can Do crazy moves and trust in some good dice rolls but not only that.

[@dejawukong]

i kinda agree. me and a friend got into it recently, just before the new rules. we both have a swarm team(felgor and vet guards) and an elite team (nemesis claw and legionaries) we played swarm first and it was fun but felgor felt quite strong compared to vet guards then we tried our elites and it felt a lot more balanced but we were talking about the dmg, saves and wounds and we just don't see how our swarm squads could do well into elites. the lower wounds, dmg, apl all for more units isn't enough imo. another thing is plasma guns, it always seems you want to try and overcharge and on elites you have enough wounds and high enough rolls you dont have to worry about the hot rule much but for a swarm squad that one overcharge could blow up the unit shooting it. personally i think the double shoot/melee makes them too good. perhaps if they changed it so you can shoot and fight in the same turn but not double shoot or double melee. for now me and my friend are just sticking to our elites. the games against each other feels way more balanced this way while the swarms would just be heavily favoured to one especially if its against elites

[@retnuHDJ]

"perhaps if they changed it so you can shoot and fight in the same turn but not double shoot or double melee" All models in the game can shoot and fight in the same turn assuming they have enough APL and are in a position to do so

[@dejawukong]

@@retnuHDJ tbf this is what I was thinking but then you have some teams more melee focused or more shooting focused. Imo make every operative in all squads apl 3 so they can do the same amount of moves. Start with that then look and balancing wounds and what not

[@retnuHDJ]

@@dejawukong I mean, the rules currently don't prevent any operatives from fighting and shooting in the same turn, so I was confused what you meant by changing the rules to allow space marines to do that instead of allowing double shoot or double fight. I think having 3APL models and 2APL models makes sense, I don't think that should change

[@dejawukong]

@@retnuHDJ the problem is elites are dramatically better in every way that swarms teams can't really do well into them. Double their wounds, extra apl, better chances to hit, better damage and better saves. You need to balance some of these to make it more fair. By giving everyone 3 apl it balances it a little more. They still have terrible saves, dmg and chance to hit but now can use their extra numbers and extra apl to try and tactically win instead.

[@retnuHDJ]

@@dejawukong Elite teams were a bit underpowered last edition. They have just been a bit overbuffed. It has nothing to do with their APL3. If all models had APL 3 elite teams wouldn't be able to compete.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

Accurate 2 Hello! I haven’t played a lot of games yet, but assuming you are correct about Marines (not Phobos) then it’s indicative of a pendulum swing in balance. Elites were so underpowered last edition that you needed to be a superlative player to be able to win with them. 5:02 ok Red Six Back to my reply. I think we need more data before we can unequivocally say that Marines are broken. If they truly are over-tuned, then what levers can they pull? Removing an operative is probably a bridge too far…though the Kill Op is built to accommodate that option. Nerf Astartes? Remove their re-roll equipment & abilities? Reduce their total wounds? Maybe the better option is buff non-elites.

[@TheSotai]

@CrimsonTemplar2 does it have to even be a nerf Marines response, could just help the underperforming teams

[@rodrigomorenonunez4030]

honestly, whatever increases skill expression, with a friend we tried a simple 1 wound nerf, but with smokes, with volkus being almost all heavy, with how easy it is for them to ignore you, it feels like playing against knights feels like in big 40k

[@Luvulong]

They need to rework counteract. 6 marines shoot 3 times every turning point. On full skill. That is possibly 18 dead humans every turn.. while a 12 man human team shoots 12 times, killing nothing, cause they are shit at shooting and rubic marines have 2+ armor. You get 24 actions with the marines, you can skip counteract to use later, while 12 humans have 24 actions too. They used to make up for being a shity individual by mere numbers. Now you activate one and he is a sitting duck. I could just play elites, but wtf.. i like playing both kind of armies.

[@DaedalusShard]

Nerfing five or so teams is actually way easier than buffing 30+ to their level, though. Not to say I'd dismiss a buff to teams that really need it.

[@DaedalusShard]

​@@LuvulongSomeone on their balance team is deathly allergic to math.

[@slackeratlarge575]

Shout out to duck duck go, lol