Let's Edit Ep. #2: Invisible POV Character Epic Fantasy Novel Editing Demonstration

[@GoldenKaos]

I struggle to find the words to express my excitement at seeing a new video from this channel.

[@seanwebb605]

Well just write out a rough draft and see if Ellen can help you with a re-write later.

[@BlackHermit]

@@seanwebb605 🤣🤣🤣

[@GoldenKaos]

@@seanwebb605 This is why I'm an *aspiring* writer. ;)

[@ThalieLuna782]

I've just joined, needing alot of direction and guidance in my first book, and I can already see I will be feeling the same!

[@herebecause]

It's so helpful to see how you apply storytelling advice to actual scenes - thank you! It makes it click so much better when you explain where the reader's attention goes and what the reader expects as we follow the character around the scene. And thank you to the author for volunteering as tribute!

[@wrafalko]

Cragmyre has decided Ellen Brock will be one of seventeen beings spared when he subjugates the known universe. . . . All kidding aside, this is incredible, I am floored. I can’t express enough how incredible of a resource your videos and the discord are. Thank you so much Ellen!

[@LoveSaidNo]

This is a very high honour! 😉

[@EllenBrock]

Many many thanks Cragmyre! I'm honored!

[@deathmetalpotato]

isn’t that the pervert with the big chin from Family Guy

[@Harper_Batin]

​@@deathmetalpotato im pretty sure Cragmyre refers to the mc in the story.

[@Rachull]

I can't even watch other people's videos anymore. Yours blow all others away. You're so knowledgeable

[@ashforceone]

One of the things I have learned is that if I am ever stuck with a clarity issue, 85% of the time the solution is to flip the order of two sentences. 😅

[@inkwyvern5171]

Example?

[@Ykibmh]

​@@inkwyvern5171 uhh this is my own example so like it might not be the best Eg "it's incredibly rare for someone to have 2 Talents. Many manifest multiple in childhood, but none of them stick around." Turns into "Many manifest 2 or more Talents in childhood, but none of them stick. It is incredibly rare for an adult to have 2 Talents and have both stick."

[@Poisonedblade]

This Channel rises above the rest because Ellen is an editor, while most of the other channels are from writers. Ellen gets right to the point and efficiently gives great advice. The writers' videos tend to be 4x too long and don't tackle the problems from a structural level. Also, getting writing advice from a writer who has a different style than you isn't going to help.

[@AngHemenway]

I'm super intrigued by the story. I got the impression that the hag is pretending to be worse at magic than she is, and is testing to see how competent the others are. This a great way to show how the author knows what's going on the behind the scenes but the reader doesn't and shows the areas that trip people up. Also highlights the importance of having another editor. Love this series it's so insightful and helpful. There's another editor that does this same type of video that I love too.

[@jasonhobbs2405]

Very helpful! I actually liked the interaction between the hag and the girl wielding electricity. Thought it was a good way to start to introduce the magic system.

[@amalathisdreaming]

So glad to see the continuation of this series!

[@samon101]

I absolutely love this series, keep going!

[@shabadabadabada5133]

Love this series so much.

[@EllenBrock]

I'm so glad!

[@PechichonPelado]

This editing series is so amazing. Please keep it going.

[@elchiponr1]

This is gonna help me a lot to revisr my own stuff. Much thanks to you, and these people volunteering their writings

[@Priscilla_Bettis]

This was fantastic, Ellen, thank you. Will, kudos for an invisible POV character. That's ambitious.

[@lanab.820]

Yay! Another episode!! I was so excited when I saw it that I had to pause my plans for the day to watch it right away haha I really liked the scene and Cragmyre’s POV. I couldn't visualize him properly at first, but I assume the readers get a better description whether before or after that scene. Also, I thought Cragmyre was exploring the Hag’s house out of boredom - and it was funny how he hoped to find something disturbing or evil but was faced with a regular kitchen and bathroom. But when he mentioned the sense of unease, I was like.. Oh. I forgot about that. I was confused by it and some other moments, but Ellen put all these vague feelings of confusion and misunderstanding in clear, on-point criticism -- and that’s why I love this video so much. It’s fascinating to see you in action. Thank you for your work, Ellen, and best of luck with your novel, Will! I’ll keep an eye out for it :)

[@wrafalko]

I’m glad you liked it! Cragmyre is an odd looking creature; despite attempts at describing him in other parts of the manuscript, I’m considering getting a picture page to help the reader out. That, or he might be lurking on the cover page! And Ellen is so great, isn’t she?

[@resonate9815]

Why is speaking about my real-life experiences easier than putting it into words? I struggle to write anything sensible on paper. Could it be that I want to write and edit simultaneously or maybe it's just OCD? Ellen, your editing skills is remarkable. I admire you.

[@LeviathantheMighty]

Wow! I could read great books endlessly, but not know WHY they're great. I had no idea this kind of video could be so helpful. Thanks!!

[@hehevalerie]

It's not a bad scene at all-I think the flighty, distracted nature of the character and the jokes in the narration that don't quite land could maybe even be combined to make the scene stronger AND maybe add characterization to him / his companions with some comments from like Molly / Uriel like, "Oh, don't mind Crag. That overgrown hummingbird's always crashing into shit." Or something along those lines.

[@wrafalko]

Ellen hit the nail on the head commenting on the challenges of an invisible character. I quickly realized that he spends a lot of time being a passive observer of other characters doing the interesting things. I’ve found it useful for getting glimpses into what an antagonist might be up to without going into the antagonist’s PoV, but the challenge always remains “how do I make Cragmyre proactive.” He does have a major character development a few chapters later that gives him a strong and relatable motivation, but in the interim I’ll probably take Ellen’s advice and cut back on his perspective until we get there so it’s just enough to keep the reader aware of his antics but not get bogged down by his meandering.

[@hehevalerie]

I realize might've misread your reply on Cragmyre's role in the story, but regardless I do think character dialogue is a great way to get the tone of your story across (if we read funny dialogue, we'll be more open to funny prose, etc) and show the reader about a character's personality without having to tell them in the narrative! Great work so far, especially considering how new you are at writing.

[@borednow]

@@wrafalkoor use first person for cragmyre.... btw his name sounds too much like family guy quagmire...

[@Vickynger]

ellen i cannot express how helpful this type of content is thank you so so so so much for doing this its so interesting and valuable 😭😭😭

[@EllenBrock]

I'm so glad!

[@Exayevie]

I don't know why this video never showed up in my recommendeds and I missed it in my subscription box - I love this and I want to see more! I would have watched it immediately if I had ever seen it - please keep doing these!

[@mezlyndon662]

Some really useful advice in this video. Thanks, Ellen! And thanks to the author for volunteering. It's not easy to put your work out there for criticism, but really helpful for all of us to learn from together. I'm about a year into learning to write myself, but not as brave as you are yet! I think this scene is really good for a year's experience, and it seems clear that you're well on the way to developing both your writing skills and also your desired tone and style, which can be hard to force into being. I'm also keen to write 3rd limited fantasy, so I especially appreciate you volunteering this scene for Ellen to use. I think fantasy has its own unique challenges when in 3rd limited, as there are so many things your reader can't just assume or know, but the character isn't likely to dwell on or think about - such as things like being invisible, flying, being smaller than a human, having multiple eyes, etc. Overall I think you did a really decent job (especially for a year's experience) at conveying this information without info dumping, and I think it's very natural that for a while you might struggle with clarity as a result, while you increase your control of your craft at a sentence level. It's very common to struggle with revealing these details without straying into omniscient pov, or making the character think things they wouldn't normally think. It's a challenge I've heard seasoned, published fantasy writers discuss, so I think you can be pretty proud of your skills in this so far. A lot of writers I've seen, with a lot more than a year's experience, not only break pov, but also pause the scene completely to info dump an encyclopedia entry on the reader. :P I also really appreciated Ellen's advice on those areas where you lacked clarity, as this is a big issue I have myself. Thanks to both of you!

[@krisesis5738]

This is my new favorite series, super helpful. Thank you Ellen :)

[@LoveSaidNo]

Thank you Will for allowing us to learn from your text. I never had an Invisible Character‘s POV before. I’m looking forward to read the rest of your book 😉 And Ellen, your video was brilliant, as always.

[@wrafalko]

Thank you! It’s thrilling to have so many people read even a snippet of my writing.

[@cabrielleholden]

Cragmyre is a super interesting character just in description alone and I loved all the little tidbits about the way he looks that were sprinkled throughout this piece. I think this scene would be great if the little bits and pieces of the conversation that Cragmyre overhears turn out to be super important later in the story. The idea of a main character that's only half focused on the story as it unfolds is kind of intriguing. I can imagine him flying around looking at boring stuff, and every now and then his attention is drawn to the conversation that's happening because some word or sentence fragment caught his attention, and then he returns to his snooping because of the hope of something he saw. I get the feeling that's what was happening, but we just didn't get to hear any important bits of dialogue. Or maybe that's exactly what happened, but we won't find out until later in the book. In which case, bravo, that's stellar writing. Once you get this novel all polished up, I feel like it's going to be an intriguing story! Thanks so much for sharing with us. And come back and let us know when you publish!

[@wrafalko]

Thank you Cabrielle! That’s pretty much what happens-the following chapter, Molly/Zyfiro/Uriel recap all the important things that Cragmyre couldn’t be bothered to listen to. Either way, I’ll still probably cut the scene into two different PoVs. Ellen isn’t the first to comment that it’s a bit jarring to split the focus. Also-looking forward to reading your novel when it’s published!

[@amalathisdreaming]

Just completed the video and I think you gave some great critique points there. It was an enjoyable chapter and I'm excited to see how the author will develop it further. What I think worked the least for me is how the hag and snooping scenes intertwined - personally I struggle with this kind of writing and while focusing on hag scenes I was constantly forgetting Cragmyre is snooping. Putting them one after another would give the reader - or me at least - a much better understanding of what is going on. For example, starting with the team talking with the hag and Cragmyre listening on their conversation while watching the hag and growing restless (and being invisible is a great trait if you really want to stare at someone and notice every detail of their looks, movements and behavior - this would be a great moment to describe how he notices more and more odd things about her, lack of lashes, the movement of her body, and other things that make him feel like there is a more sinister side to her), him getting bored of it eventually, especially when the hag mentions that the new mission will be mundane (and Cragmyre definitely does not sound like he likes mundane), and leaving the room to explore the house and try to discover the true nature of the hag.

[@wrafalko]

Agreed! What Ta’Hona (or the Hag, as Cragmyre calls her) is doing is setting the stage for the rest of the novel. What she sets them upon gets explained shortly after, but so many people have wanted to hear the full conversation at the table. And those are really good considerations too-an invisible creatures capacity to intrusively observe someone unhindered.

[@themollerz]

Awesome that you are keeping this going!

[@jasmyneemmerick]

I enjoy this editing series. I find myself applying your critique to my own writing. I wish I could read the beginning of the chapter, I have a feeling it could have put some things in context.. Interesting story. Congrats, Will.

[@wrafalko]

Thank you! There are a few things that are clearer with the context of the rest of the chapter, but despite that I still found Ellen’s thought process educational even when I knew her question was resolved elsewhere

[@CasterMedicus]

I find this Cragmyre character in concept wonderful and it would be enough for me to pick such a story up.

[@wrafalko]

When I start to query agents in 2-3 months from now, I’m hoping to find one who feels the same way as you 😅

[@rachelthompson9324]

I'm loving this series. Thanks Ellen

[@rachelthompson9324]

It seems to me there is a lot of passive voice style sentences. I agree going more direct with the narrative would help the reader. Passive voice is a sign of beating around the bush

[@fl0xtez]

I really love this series! Going through a concrete example like this is so helpful

[@RobCastov]

Wow, thanks Ellen for the work you put into this. Im learning a lot from this video :D

[@skerr3773]

Thank you Will for sharing, love this

[@animanya394]

“Readers’ feelings going against pov feelings” oh come on it’s the best thing when that happens. It makes you feel clever as a reader. But I agree that it might need more balance here, maybe exaggerate hag dialogue or enhance boredom of cragmyre… “It was half open” That’s continuation of the joke about correlation between openness of doors and likelihood of secrets behind them. I concluded that motivation of cragmyre was to investigate the sense of unease. or to find adventures because he is very bored. Yeah, overall, quite good!

[@jonanamar8503]

Thank you Ellen👍

[@alisondavis3324]

My suggestion would be to read Goblin Quest by Jim Hines to pull examples from. The story follows a goblin who gets dragged into an adventure that he has no interest in and doesn't understand humans (ogres, dwarves, etc) mixed in with tongue-in-cheek humor that balances the high-stakes/dark scenes.

[@lbrowning2543]

Loved hearing the edits in real time! As an old person, a description in the text of “old” as “smelling bad” is insulting.

[@wrafalko]

Thank you for pointing that out! Fortunately, it’s a clarity issue on my part and not a correlation that I intended, which I’ll need to correct. His nose and his eyes tell him different things, and the intent is that she’s hiding something-but I see that it came across as old=smells weird.

[@lbrowning2543]

@@wrafalko 🏆Thank you!

[@mitrikoudsi8060]

Great video! Your videos are so awesome and helpful! Thank you ❤

[@jeromegilly]

51 minutes yes please!

[@JeanetHenning]

Love these videos but wish these edits were limited to the start of first chapters as I feel your confusion of certain elements take away from the value of the editing advice as we don't know if some of these mistakes are because the author made mistakes while writing or because there's vital information we are missing. Like if it's established early on that Cragmyre can sense danger then many of your points fall flat and it takes away time that could've been spent focused on other edits. Again I really love your videos, you've helped me so much with improving my own editing. Keep up the good work.

[@EllenBrock]

I totally agree, and I debated a lot about whether to allow scenes that aren't from the very beginning. I ultimately decided to ask for a scene the writer wanted help with, which I think generates submissions that help demonstrate some more complex and interesting issues. First scenes are usually the most/best edited. I have gotten a few of them, but really had nothing much to comment on, so they weren't worth making a video about. I think I will amend my submission requirements to include previous scenes for my personal reference to try to get the best of both worlds. Thanks for your feedback!

[@JeanetHenning]

@@EllenBrock That makes sense, can imagine it's difficult to find the balance. Can't wait to see more of these whatever your approach ends up being. Again thank you for your hard work.

[@Amelijap]

This series is beyond helpful!!! thank you so much! Will you be able to do some editing for YA/NA and it would be amazing to see you take a manuscript for example and create a synopsis and even query letter for it. This is amazing thank you!

[@SummerDream3r]

Can you do a video covering the fundamental differences in a novella, as opposed to a novel, other than length? There are very few novella craft videos on the youtubes. :)

[@tlalnetlalli04]

36:30 The actual dialog intercut with Cragmyre’s actions is a bit jarring. I think it would maybe work better if the snippets of conversation Cragmyre picks up were conveyed to the reader as part of the narrative instead of actually spelling it out in dialog. Something along the lines of. “Cragmyre’s ears pricked when the hag mentioned something about needing a drop of blood, but the conversation soon turned to the woman giving an exhaustive account of a missing family heirloom. Cragmyre turned his attention back on the remaining doors.”

[@sarahsander785]

I have to say that besides the sometimes a bit overboarding wording I really enjoyed this piece of Will's work. I think Cragmyre is an interesting character and stylisticly it feels like Will had put a lot of thought and information into the first half. At least it doesn't feel like the story and the jokes are coming from nowhere. I'm intrigued ^^ But while you were at the topic of narration: Will you make a series on POVs or do you already have videos on that topic? I'm carrying an idea with me for quite some years now in which I want an omniscient POV but from a character within the story and I'm still wondering on how to archieve that or if there are examples out there anywhere ... I feel it would end up quite close to what Will did here, that's why I remember.

[@wrafalko]

Thank you! Intrigue is good :)

[@katarinamor]

I wish it was the beginning of the first chapter edited, not the second half, because 20 minutes into the video I still struggle to understand what is going on and who these characters are. The fantasy setting makes things so much more complicated for me and that's the reason I can't tell if something is supposed to be taken as irony or as a common thing for the world of the story.

[@zachindes]

Really enjoyed this breakdown as well. I wonder if characterization could more fleshed out if there was occasional telepathy going on with the team (or however it was described earlier in the chapter). So they can communicate while the exploring is happening

[@rachelthompson9324]

motivation--goal--conflict is unclear

[@TheWorldOfDK]

Hello Ellen! Great video! Quite a bit off topic, but, how would you include characters using social media like making TikTok videos, or characters sending group texts to many other characters without listing each character name of those who receive said texts/chats, etc.?

[@moshecallen]

I'm not finishing this video just now been I really don't want to switch my thinking into editing mode. I'm not there yet at the moment. I don't want you to think not finishing the video is because I didn't like it. I will probably finish it later when I'm ready to mentally take in the content.

[@EllenBrock]

Totally understand!

[@Whawpenshaw]

I would seriously reconsider "hiding" the fact that the pov character is invisible. Maybe it's specified earlier in the chapter but it saps tension if I don't already know he's invisible and it adds nothing if revealed later.

[@TheRoleplayer40k]

Great video. I'm not a fan of "Mark agreed with John." as a sentence structure. How did he agree? Did he talk, did he nod, did he reach into his mind telepathically?

[@prathameshrana2099]

I need a advice how much planing should I do before getting read to write

[@SeanDuranMusic]

OMG!!! This was Amazing!!! And you did say, Victim? Which I was reminded of the story, how you became a serial killer, because all your subs drove you to madness! LOL. I would liked to have known the writers age. It was good for someone, who I'm thinking is quite young. You have got to do more of these types videos. Even though in my first year writing I wrote 5 novels...and now three years in l'm on my 9th. A word of advice you can make to up and coming writers, they should read alot, ALOT!!! 🤬 In three years, I have read over 300 novels. Reading will teach alot faster, and don't forget about writing and writing. Writing!!!

[@DonJuanDecepticon]

Do you have a video or tips on flooding yourself with over complicated ideas. I come up with an outline for a story,but when I go to get into the really detailed bits, it becomes hard to limit myself and stay focused on the story I want to tell. Usually this is where i get and then I spiral so much that the work stalls.

[@12thDecember]

Curious whether the author intended the name Cragmyre to remind people of a quagmire. I can't add anything to your editing skills, because you've done a great job of picking out phrases and passages that could be rewritten to make for a better reader experience. I personally would not be able to read this book because I suspect I'll have a problem with the punctuation. For example, the comma after "main road," makes it sound like the house is built of cobblestone, which is possible. Just say it's on the main road, and then add, "Like all the other roads in town, it was built of cobblestone. Then later, "Oh, I am so fortunate. To have such family wealth." Why the period? Things like this throw me out of a story. I know the trend is for short, choppy sentences, but it doesn't always work. Maybe after her first statement, "Oh, I am so fortunate," someone can eyeball her appearance and ratty home and throw her a puzzled look, and then she adds, "To have such family wealth."

[@rachelthompson9324]

I notice that a lot of the MC's voice and the narrative voice is a mix of regal words and plain language that is typical here and now so the voice style isn't consistent. However, the MCs, I don't think, should sound regal became they seem to be from the lower social tear. Some class jargon may be in order.

[@t0dd000]

Here's a question for you, Ellen: my PoV character changes scene to scene. I haven't really established chapters yet. If I combine scenes of different PoVs in a chapter, do you see that as problematic?

[@bluescales6454]

I'm really late to the party, but the no nose divot thing most probably means that between the tip of her nose and her forehead there's something of a straight line, kind of like the alien avatars.

[@libbyhyett6625]

Thanks ♥️

[@EllenBrock]

Thank you so much for your support!

[@giseledute]

Thank you so much!

[@rachelthompson9324]

line editing: he over used the word "looked" when the action can be implied and the words look or looked aren't usually necessary at all. the word is a stage direction.

[@YountFilm]

The author clearly has a bombastic style. It seems like it would all land a lot better if the characters said most of the funny things that the narrator is saying.

[@hyleore]

Some of this felt a little bit like tabletop-roleplay writing, maybe? Sometimes it felt like it wasn't bad but just a little awkward for a novel because it uses stylistic choices I'm not used to seeing in a novel, and which don't work so well within that context (like referring to the group as 'companions' a lot, or the old lady's speech when she offers them a quest). I'm wondering if the writer is a D&D player at all 🤔

[@digriznm]

This sounds like the start of a D&D campaign.

[@Jay.B.2046]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@resonate9815]

I take it that this is not a horror novel but 666 likes is hard to ignore.

[@Songwritersbehindthecurtain]

But it would be awesome and amazing if you would go to a library and chat with a librarian and chat 💬 with them about studio album in my opinion both studio album and book 📕 both have number and song title example chapter 3 this time around is chapter 3 which is chapter means A chapter is a main division of a book, usually with a number or title. And I hope it lines up with a book 📕 that would be awesome 😎 and amazing 🥲 too.

[@PeterMacansky]

[@williss1192]

This was confusing and somehow discouraged me in writing a little lol

[@Aluko79]

13:42 Unorganized mess as if opossed to organized mess? I can imagine using that as sarcasm, but here I would through it away. It was a mess. The simpler the better

[@manicmonarch2608]

Characters that are just observing the events are not great viewpoint characters. I would rather be in the head of the warlock, getting telepathic communication from the imp as the imp spies for him. Would be better to be at the table, with the hag, and the imp's communication could be your humor.

[@rachelthompson9324]

"...declared his presence with clanging armor." I reworked that sentence to be more direct.

[@rachelthompson9324]

" smiled to himself" is logistically confusing. The act of smiling is overt. " he internally smiled to himself" corrects the logistic issue and tells the reader it's an internal reaction but it still isn't logical.

[@inkwyvern5171]

"Molly looked down at a piece of paper and up at the abode" the conjunction 'and' doesn't work here because Molly can't look down AND up, they're opposite actions - you can't turn left and right at the same time either - the conjunction should be 'then', indicating the sequence of events. She looked down _then_ up. The line "It wasn't particularly large, it wasn't particularly small" is a comma splice. The sentence joins two independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction. What follows is a sentence fragment. "Perfectly common, normal, and ordinary". It's supposed to modify the previous sentence but it can't, because it doesn't express a complete thought. It should be attached with a comma, or rewritten as a complete sentence by adding a subject and a verb. "It was perfectly common, normal, and healthy" 'as' is another ambiguous conjunction. Fuuuu I thought it was 5 minutes long, not 50!

[@saorihirai4492]

you know whats crazy is that I suck at grammar because I hardly ever remember all the different terms, vocabularies, and rules. I'm more of an instinctual person, sentences will either sound right or feel right to my ear, and I can justify why they do, but not with exact terms. I made all those suggestions for why those sentences don't work and then I see your comment! So funny

[@inkwyvern5171]

@@saorihirai4492 So it's like you kinda 'sense' your way through a dark room; you feel your away around the furniture to navigate without seeing properly. Like you're subconsciously aware of sentence structure without seeing it with your eyes. I get you. You probably have decent pattern recognition, good sign of high iq

[@rachelthompson9324]

"A smug grin crept across his face...." This is a POV violation if this is 3ard person limited. Such a statement feel and acts like an omniscient POV. Also in his narrative voice how would he know that? What does a creeping grin look like? Would he think to himself, "Hey, I'm smiling now"? Does one note when one smiles? It isn't logical. Smiles and grins are commonly overused as tags or beats when other things work better. To me, smiles are place holders waiting for a better way of expressing the moment in rewrites.

[@jyjaeskz]

Do you not know when you smile?

[@rachelthompson9324]

"Incredibly ordinary nature" is a contradictive statement. "Unexpectedly" is better but there are too many "Ly" ending words in the piece so I would try and find another word to drive home the concept.

[@misseclipse7415]

reminds me of work safe version of @DylexiaKitty