New Criterion Collection Boxsets have a common issue...

Two recent boxsets from the Criterion Collection had me excited, but they have a few issues. Hear my initial thoughts on the Eric Rohmer Four Seasons set, and the Chantal Akerman Masterpieces set.
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[@ElliotCoen]

Watch my beginner's guide to the Criterion Collection here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWrKl2l4bZZ1jKs

[@michaelhawkins7389]

Also Elliot , you forgot to mention that with region A , they will won't play on European Bluray players ( unless you get a region free blu ray player , which a lot of people don't have) with the UK being part of European it is region B. I can't play blu rays from America or Asia. Unless the film/show are on region free discs

[@DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader]

I’m amazed that others are now starting to speak more openly about Criterion’s longstanding compression issues. I highlight them whenever they appear when I’m reviewing a disc release. I’ve come to expect them on all Criterion Blu-ray releases and when there’s not an issue it’s a pleasant surprise. It’s also frequently in their on disc extras. This has really made their reputation plummet compared to other labels who care about compression. (though sadly few do) Their statement about being the utmost on technical presentation quality is utterly untrue between this issue and their scrubbing of audio tracks on a regular basis. The major issue seems to be the various companies they are farming their encoding out to. That when this really became a prevalent issue on a frequent basis. More and more labels are farming out encoding to others and opting for lesser or cheaper work. Kino has also recently done this and gone to a cheaper and inferior encoding handler.

[@lasten75]

Some labs do not have any kind of quality control, neither incoming or outgoing.

[@ElliotCoen]

It’s something that has become harder to ignore over time for me. Once you’ve spotted it, it’s hard to ignore - a bit of a curse in that sense! They could very easily fix these issues if they wanted to. Thanks for watching by the way. It’d be great to chat sometime about films and physical media if you’re up for it.

[@DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader]

@@ElliotCoen it’s definitely much more prevalent with larger 4K televisions magnifying any kind of source or mastering issues! I’d love to have a chat sometime!!

[@boolocklock]

If there's one positive I have about Criterion from all the discs I have from them is their customer service. Their customer service is so good. I recently had to get one of my 4K discs replaced because it wouldn't play in my 4K player due to my player not reading the disc. After e-mailing them, they did sent my replacement disc which I got in 2-4 days which is very quick. Hope in the future they'll have better quality control in their future releases they put out.

[@AndyKing1963]

Great video Elliott - yeah I’ve been thinking the same about Criterion for a while now. More issues on some of their new releases - cutting corners a bit perhaps?

[@maxturgeon89]

Thanks Elliot, now I'm scared to watch my Criterions and notice the compression issues and be cursed forever 😂

[@user-zd9yn5mz1f]

First time viewing your commentary. I appreciate your perspective and commentary. Nice job and l will check back soon!

[@letstalkcriterion]

I was okay to watch the features on Eric Rohmer set without the subs as I'm okay with spoken French. That's interesting what you say about Akerman I found Jeanne Dielman absolutely fascinating maybe I'm just attuned to that style of filmmaker.

[@AndrewBuckleBookReviews]

Region A, you still need a blu-ray player that can play them (at least the 4K are generally region free)

[@nicolasbernier-deslauriers9778]

I recently bought Criterion’s version of The Runner, and it was missing a bit of the movie. It was such an awkward cut that I tried to find the film somewhere else and as expected, it was cut differently. I wrote to Criterion and they were unable to explain why it was like that. I wish someone would speak about it.

[@mrsbaylocksvideoemporium9621]

I love the artwork and the branding on the Criterion Collection boxes. 📦 They draw me in like no other boutique label. 🏷️ I just wish they could upgrade their packaging so it doesn’t come in cereal 🥣 box 📦 card 😡

[@lasten75]

Some labs do not even do Quality Control of any sort, neither incoming or outgoing.

[@tjdw5251]

Have you checked out any more of the Wim Wenders set or any other blu-ray releases from Curzon ? I find their disc encoding and mastering to be VERY poor. Check out Paris, Texas, the remaster is clearly great but is poorly encoded and some of the worst compression I have seen and makes it look like streaming it is a real REAL shame. So much macro blocking. Makes me nervous about picking up any more Curzon discs and I do want to pick up the full Wim Wenders set. I am glad that some else is out there who is also focusing and picking up on poor encoding and compression.

[@johnmarzy]

Hello Elliot, I collect physical media because I really enjoy the bonus material, specifically audio commentary. I thoroughly enjoy the "making of" details of the film. Have you done a vid on the best "extras" for dvd or Blu-ray? (My Fair Lady is a favorite)

[@ElliotCoen]

Hi John, I haven’t ever done that but it’s a great idea! I’ll put some plans together. Cheers!

[@leog2906]

This is my issue with Criterion. Im noticing more and more issues. Like on the Lone Star 4k disc. The title menu has an audio issue. It doesn't play audio correctly as opposed to the bluray disc.

[@marcus1333]

Same with del Toro's Pinocchio.... How they could not notice this is beyond me. It's basically the first thing when you put in the disc. And that for the price.

[@ralphjenkins6223]

@@marcus1333The Walkabout 4K is the same way. I thought there was something wrong with my disc at first. Maybe it’s a player issue.

[@marcus1333]

@@ralphjenkins6223 I noticed something weird yesterday. This issue happens on my TV, but not on my beamer. Same player, same receiver. I cannot explain that (yet). Speculating I would say eARC gets in the way somewhere in this chain. Still, I blame this on the disc. I have hundreds of discs and this is the only one that has this issue. In my book this is then a disc issue until proven otherwise. A minor one I must say: the main feature plays fine.

[@beetle1087]

Have you raised this with Criterion? Think we need to raise as many voices appealing this so they take notice

[@wright96d]

They may not act like it, but all labels monitor review channels and forums. They know.

[@ElliotCoen]

I have raised it with them but unfortunately I’ve never had a reply to my emails from Criterion HQ. I’d love to chat with them sometime soon

[@tubguinace]

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't compression artifacts affected some Criterion releases for a long time now? I hear the 2016 release of Pan's Labyrinth had pretty bad macro blocking as well.

[@ElliotCoen]

I never had their Pan’s Lab release but yeah, it’s been an issue for many years. I guess it’s wearing on me a bit more these days when I see such good work other labels do in that department

[@zahcsillum]

⁠@@ElliotCoen which labels would u recommend that practice good mastering and compression?

[@wkpna]

Criterion's poor compression has been a well known issue for quite a long time. 😞

[@vincientj]

Some screen shots as an example of the issue would've been nice.

[@ElliotCoen]

Indeed they would have. I don’t have the capacity to take any screenshots

[@mrsbaylocksvideoemporium9621]

Which boutique labels use Fidelity in Motion?

[@stuarthutchinson2477]

600 Criterion - wow! That's over 50 days to watch!!

[@zemoderno]

Regarding the Chantal Akerman Box, I believe it's the first time Criterion Collection has used 'Masterpieces' in a title, and I find it unnecessary. A great director doesn't need that kind of endorsement from the company; on the contrary, it can generate suspicion. Personally, I don't like any of her films. They are weak in artistic quality and self-pitying. However, Chantal Akerman's life and work form a peculiar whole.

[@ElliotCoen]

Even more so, Akerman was vocal about cinema not being a competition, and disliking accolades and awards in general. Part of me thinks she’d turn in her grave seeing her films labeled as masterpieces or the greatest of all time!

[@Kardinalinrome]

Criterion have reviously released a (non-numbered) boxset on dvd with the word Masterworks in it: "Ingmar Bergman - Four Masterworks".

[@zemoderno]

@@Kardinalinrome I did not know that. Thanks.

[@kmhofmann]

Criterion have actually re-encoded Jeanne Dielman for the 'Chantal Akerman Masterpieces' set - and the result is noticeably WORSE than their previous encode for the single-disc release. The issues are more visible in some scenes than in others, but already the opening shot (after the credits) has a lot more "buzzy" macroblocking on the new encode than on their previous one. I wouldn't recommend the Akerman set to anyone who is just interested in Jeanne Dielman.

[@doozledumbler5393]

Rohmer is great. Apart from the movie about a guy trying to crack onto to an underage girl, they're mostly great. I like the ones where he colour co-ordinates the locations with a particular colour.

[@rickdrais9737]

I have The Roaring Twenties 2 disc set. The Blue Ray disc is wonderful. The contrast is perfect. The overall presentation is just great. The 4K disc is muddy, hard to see and the contrast is terrible. The blacks are closer to very dark grey, the light tones are muted and dusty looking. It looks as if you’re watching on a TV on its last legs -and I have a brand new 55inch 4K set. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn’t have bought the double disc set, just the Blue Ray

[@ColombianThunder]

Question, do your other 4K movies look good? Just wondering because I know that the first time I tried to watch a 4K I didn't understand the HDR and had to mess with the settings a bit on my player and TV. The 4K criterion reviews for Roaring 20s are extremely positive from what I've seen so it's possible your settings are not optimized for 4K.

[@rickdrais9737]

@@ColombianThunder Nope. My other 4K discs look great. This one however looks like an old copy you may have seen on a local TV station. Just faded and lacking contrast

[@ColombianThunder]

@@rickdrais9737 oh weird, very strange! I wish I had a copy. Is it possible your disc is defective? Find it odd no one else seems to mention this.

[@rickdrais9737]

@@ColombianThunder Very possible. But the Blue Ray looks so good that I don’t care so much. Just a little odd

[@brunomachado7279]

I've just rewatched The Samourai. Not the most wonderful transfer, but good enough. I Wonder if the 4k transfer will make a significant difference. Another criterion issue is the lack of subtitles. How can a label this important offer only English subtitles? Not even Spanish? I myself can't share some films with friends who are not strong in English.

[@j0n.p]

The new transfer of Le Samourai is head and shoulders above the old Criterion disc. I have the new Pathe blu-ray (which will use the same scan as Criterion) and it looks amazing.

[@brunomachado7279]

​@@j0n.p I can't wait!!

[@handymoore-ik7oc]

Just curious Eliot, what player/players do you have?

[@ElliotCoen]

I have an Oppo UDP 203 - now unavailable so I don’t know what I’d get as a replacement if this one broke!

[@handymoore-ik7oc]

Panasonic 9000 for video, Magnetar 800 for audio and video.

[@hunterdean4766]

Can you show examples of what "artifacts" look like? I am relatively new to physical media and hear people talk about these issues but no one EVER shows what to look for.

[@ElliotCoen]

Have a quick search for macroblocking and you’ll find plenty on it. Sadly it’s been around for a long time!

[@84paratize]

banding is another similar issue which I have seen on numerous discs (including Criterions)

[@84paratize]

I would say that generally speaking, in terms of compression issues, Criterion, 88 Films, Imprint, Third Window, and Second Run have let me down the most. The best are generally Arrow, Indicator, Radiance, Eureka, Vinegar Syndrome. BFI is somewhere in the middle.

[@GamezGuru1]

Surely a problem with the compression is not a production issue, it's a compression issue.

[@ElliotCoen]

Indeed, it’s in the mastering stage before the discs get printed

[@asimler45]

Yikes, I was about to spring for the Rohmer set. Glad I saw your video! Totally agree with you re: Ackerman. She is definitely not my cup of tea. I was one of those angered at the last S&S poll. Still dumbfounded about that result. Jeanne Dielman is borderline unwatchable.

[@j0n.p]

Hot take: I hate HDR. You're basically boosting colours and contrast to a level that wasn't seen on the original camera negative. Way more can go wrong with the encoding process. A good cleaned up scan, with good contrast and high bit rate, is exactly how we should be seeing the movie. Not something artificially boosted for today's eyes. On top of that, you have to have compatible hardware, which honestly, who knows if it will even stand the test of time. And since HDR cannot be removed during playback, do those discs become useless if it doesn't? I really don't like that the entire industry is putting their eggs in one basket, and a lot of the time, changing things or running into errors that botch the whole disc entirely.

[@ColombianThunder]

Eh it depends. Luckily pretty much every label and distributor offers a blu ray alongside the 4K and if they are from the same scan, the difference is honestly not very noticeable (if the 4K doesn't have HDR). Personally I think that HDR if done well enhances the image a lot without changing the original piece. There are moments when they mess up, but really this can be true of even blu-rays. I think it will be pretty sustainable. Basically every thing including even video games have adopted HDR. It's simply now and the future. The biggest issue with HDR is not necessarily hardware but that it's entirely optimization dependent. Most people will try HDR with the wrong settings and then they complain that it looks bad because their settings have either off or it's in conflict with their player and TV or they have some other AI smoothing or upscaling thing turned on. Of course it's okay to not like it, even with everything right haha.

[@j0n.p]

@@ColombianThunder Kino and Criterion have neglected to give out accompanying blu-rays to recent releases. Ditto for the new Chinatown and Pulp Fiction restorations. I'm sure there's dozens more big titles that I can't think of doing the same. Hope it's not a trend, as I'm not 100% sold on it staying around forever. There's been lots of things that have come and gone.

[@ColombianThunder]

@@j0n.p really? I swear every Criterion 4K has come with a blu ray as well. I know Kino doesn't though which is a shame. I know Arrow at least releases them separately so you don't get both at once.

[@URBONED]

A film negative isn’t limited to the constraints of digital colour. So technically HDR should allow a film to look closer to what it should - however your point is totally valid, as many companies love messing with colours too much, but they do that regardless of whether it’s HDR or SDR. HDR is quickly becoming the industry standard when it comes to digital cinematography so I don’t expect it to go anywhere - and I think shot on film movies will only benefit if treated properly.

[@j0n.p]

​@@URBONED We can disagree about the first part, but what worries me is, most people (not us) are VERY slow to adapt to newer technology. With streaming, disc sales are already super low, and from the lastest data I could find, dvd's still make up the bulk of media sales (51.5%) with blu-ray's at (34.5%) and 4K at (14%). Most people haven't gone to blu-ray, let alone 4K. Blu-ray's play easily on any TV. You need compatible hardware (TV and 4K blu-ray player) to even play the new discs. I have to be honest, on my 65" Sony, I rarely see enough of a difference between the 2 to even care. Then if I want to watch special features, I have to put in another disc, since the 4K disc is usually just the movie. On top of all that, my problem with HDR and the encoding/authoring nightmares it can introduce. It does have some advantages, however. A longer movie can have bit rates in the 50's or 60's, lowering the risk of compression artifacts. I just see more cons than pros, unfortunately. That's why when Kino releases Paths of Glory in 4K HDR only, I think it's a huge mistake, given the percentage of the market that even cares. Ultimately, it's just a way for us to buy the same movie again.

[@wright96d]

Sounds like someone’s taking the format too seriously! /s But no really Criterion’s compression has been an issue for over a decade and it boggles my mind that reviewers rarely call it out.

[@ColombianThunder]

I think most people don't really notice it. Criterion's compression is definitely not the best, but it's also negligible to the average person, just on the threshold of looking good for most people. It's also entirely dependent on the size of your TV and how far or close you're sitting from it. I remember people were complaining about the compression once for The New Three Colors transfer, comparing it to a release from a different label and I needed someone to point me to a specific thing to look at and zoom in for me to even notice.

[@wright96d]

@@ColombianThunder Notice I said "reviewers" and not "most people".

[@ColombianThunder]

@@wright96d I think reviewers can just as easily not notice. Some people (including reviewers) are just not as attuned or to picking up on something like that

[@wright96d]

@@ColombianThunder A reviewer that can't pick up on these things probably shouldn't be a reviewer.

[@ColombianThunder]

@@wright96d I don't disagree

[@mrsbaylocksvideoemporium9621]

Are we not going to talk about their poor cheap packaging? Why they can’t put their packages into solid, rigid boxes is beyond me. I’ve ordered the Wallace Shawn/Andre Gregory set twice now and it’s turned up like it’s been dragged through the back of a bush 😡 😤

[@ModernPlague]

More & more, I pass up on U.S. Criterion titles in favor of imported versions with superior encodes from other labels -- _Peeping Tom, Mean Streets,_ etc. Great cover art doesn't make up for a less-than-best encode.

[@munch314]

I saw a Rohmer film once. It was kinda like watching paint dry

[@handymoore-ik7oc]

Elliot. Sorry.