Elpis ENDS?! | Endwalker MSQ Lv. 86-87

[@angel__king]

“No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise… henceforth he shall walk” is such a metal line and will always give me chills

[@remigyfgrin8830]

There's a venom and anguish in the delivery of that line that really makes it hit. Probably my single favorite line of the expansion.

[@angel__king]

@@remigyfgrin8830 I’ve always heard it as more of determination. Like “this is the last straw start walking” rather the stuff afterwards with “I breathe fire and torment” was more the anguish part

[@beurtalvarez]

​​@@remigyfgrin8830second best for me, and even though they already seen my favourite line, it is the second time we hear it that hurts the most (something about flowers)

[@XtrmPlays]

It's my favorite line in the game.

[@JimmyDoyel-by2cp]

Local karen ancient ruin everything, news at 11.

[@TarossBlackburn]

Imagine Venat, as Hydaelyn, watching the shattered soul of her friend Azem die and reincarnate over and over in the course of thousands and thousands of years, slowly recombining shard by shard... And having to wait and see whether this one, this time, is the soul she met in Elpis...

[@AsatsuyaH]

Well that's a perspective I never considered and ...ow.

[@TarossBlackburn]

@@AsatsuyaH She makes a point of explaining she ferried Minfillia's soul back to the Source and 'another who yet has a role to play' so it stands to reason that being down there in the Aetherial Sea she can see the ebb and flow of souls come by... Not to mention that there are enough lore tidbits to headcanon that our WoL is one of the Source heroes reborn again and again when it's needed.

[@ShakalDraconis]

Potentially it's even worse, as she doesn't have the Soul Sight that Hades/Hythlo have. So she never knew which if any that awakened to the echo might have been Azem. For all she knew just recently, it could have been Minfilia. It could have been Krille. It could have been Arenvald. It could have been you. My personal belief, it wasn't until the saving of the First, and the deaths of Emet-Selch and Elidibus, that she finally knew for sure that YOU were THE ONE.

[@bauloprete3905]

She was not letting the calamities happen by porpouse

[@Ravencrest172]

My favorite thing about how they did time travel was they casually disposed of the Chosen One plot. Since the beginning of ARR we, the players, have been the chosen warrior of light. But after Elpis that changes. Now we aren’t chosen by a divine being to great things. Venat has been waiting for us and chooses us because we had already told her we had done everything she knew needed to be done. We chose ourselves and Venat facilitated

[@Kozmokast]

A fantastic way of looking at it.

[@iconius2000]

We technically are still kinda chosen. The reason being we are still one of the sundered of Azem. That can’t be shrugged off by the time loop. And let’s not forget Azem was one who “brought people together” to do great things, which is our greatest strength.

[@OffDutyOfficial]

Venat's walk is in my opinion, the best cutscene in gaming. I'm beyond words and tearing up, every time... And lyrics of Answers hurt so much after this. BTW. You are right about Emet helping us in 5.3 After this revelation, they remembered their time with us in Elpis, it makes perfect sense why helped us against Elidibus. Especially since they stated that they wrote ShB with EW story in mind. Learning that wrecked me. And Emet's smile at the end after "Do not squander it... The legacy I leave you." :')

[@789654123654789]

4:09:30 This entire sequence, all ten minutes of it, from the recontextualization of Answers to the match cutting with Shadowbringers, is why we made fun of WoW when their marketing said things like, "Planned since Warcraft III" when marketing the last patch of Shadowlands.

[@NikopolAU]

3:41:32 "I WOULD NOT SUFFER US TO WALK SUCH A WRETCHED PATH!" And then he does. Alone. For twelve thousand years.

[@ecyor0]

"You think your tattered souls of equal value to those *I* lost?!"

[@Ryotsu2112]

3:31:23 “Who are you to decide our fate? To decree we live or die?”. Seems Alphinaud said something similar to Emet once upon a future.

[@kuronaialtani]

“You cannot be entrusted with our legacy” “Do not squander it. The legacy I leave you”

[@iantaakalla8180]

The more that I see these lines, the more present-day Emet Selch seems very lost. He contradicts himself a very long time ago, and seems burdened in general, when otherwise he really would have been for even helping the sundered.

[@kuronaialtani]

@@iantaakalla8180 Emet saying "you don't know me" in Elpis and immediately my thought was "you don't know yourself after twelve thousand years of the world being sundered, but we do know you"

[@seekittycat]

OMG 3:38:32 The absolute incredulity on Garrett's face followed by slow turn towards Kyle when Kyle says "Like Spiderman" IS KILLING ME LMAO

[@danners.mp4]

That's meme material right there

[@RicoSeattle]

What did Kyle mean when he said that? What happened in Spiderman?

[@jsb011]

@@RicoSeattleSpiderman uses tracers tuned to his spider sense to follow people he needs to find later.

[@RicoSeattle]

@@jsb011 Thank you for the reply.

[@Deode-d4h]

I just want to put this up here. Just in case. The big Venat cutscene is more likely a symbolic representation of her memories and emotions of the time period from when the Final Days came to Etheirys until the day she Sundered the world. I only bring this up because there were many MANY people who initially saw all of the Amaurot part in the cutscene as literal, and the Venat walking alone in the Void as symbolic. This is simply an FYI from me.

[@jas-5]

You are absolutely right. It has to be symbolic. Everything that we know about the final days contradicts the events of that cutscene. Most obviously, we know Zodiark was summoned and ended the Final Days. Then, some time later, half the remaining people were sacrificed to him to heal the world. And some time after that the Sundering happened. But this was not portrayed as being some time later. Not only are the Final Days still actively going on, but we literally see Hythlodaeus walking to go summon Zodiark mere seconds before. It's amazing, but not literal events.

[@Deode-d4h]

@@jas-5 Thanks for adding the clarification for why the cutscene was definitely a vignette of Venat's memories. And you are correct, everything we learned about the timeline of the Final Days in Shadowbringers does not coincide with the cutscene, hence again leading to the idea it is a vignette not to be taken literally.

[@Kekira]

​@jas-5 The second sacrifice never happened. People were sacrifice during it like Hythlo. The plan was to sacrifice another half to revitalize the planet with new life and then sacrifice the new life to replace the sacrificed souls.

[@Tholapsyx]

​​​@@Kekira iirc the 2nd sacrifice did happen. It was the 3rd sacrifice that was stopped. 1st sacrifice: create Zodiark and shroud the star in aether. 2nd sacrifice: heal the world environment. 3rd sacrifice: exchange the new life for those that was lost. This was the one that was stopped by the Sundering.

[@seraphiv3]

@@Tholapsyx this is correct, the Zodiark faction's plan was to wait for new life to form out of the healed Etheirys and then sacrifice them to Zodiark in exchange for bringing back the others, since there is an aether cost that needs to be paid for a primal to do anything.

[@Yvanne]

'Henceforth, he shall walk' This was the turning point in Endwalker for me. I thought - how on earth could I have possibly thought Hydaelyn (Venat) had suspicious intentions. I really noticed how Emet and Elidibus in Shadowbringers had made me so subconsciously suspicious and untrusting of Hydaelyn. But all she wanted was the best for all of us. I still think that cutscene, is some of the best storytelling in the game for me.

[@Deode-d4h]

Honestly Ishikawa and the rest of CBU3 really did a phenomenal job sowing doubt into our minds about Hydaelyn. The way they recontexualized Venat AND Answers was a masterful class in storytelling.

[@GrinningMarionette]

I think it's nice that the Ascians were never like, "Oh, Hydalin is evil", it's always just been "Hydalin is weird and disagrees with us for some reason", with the implication being that the Ascians themselves either being tempered, or too emotionally driven to really dwell on the why, but it was never really explicit enough to be clear if that was all there was to it.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@GrinningMarionette Venat never gave them a proper reason for her actions since she refused to speak of the future that she knew of. As far as they knew, she threatened the stability of the Star and giving back physical form to the souls within Zodiark(Of which based on Hythlodaeus being one of them, implies people the Convocation care about became those willing sacrifices). She said it herself, she would only share what she knew with those she trusted, and by proxy those were her supporters. Hythlodaeus said it best, Emets actions were all his own regardless of being tempered because he could never abandon his people, and the same would go for the rest sans Elidibus since he was on autopilot, and as he revealed he separated from Zodiark to try to reconcile both factions, which is why he is not sundered while Venat sundered Zodiark.

[@GrinningMarionette]

@@BlackfangDragon Yes, I'm aware.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@GrinningMarionette Ah then I misunderstood. Since I thought it was just purely on their end, when Venat herself doesn’t do her part to explain what her motivations are, while she knows and understand their motivations cause they’re open about what they want and we’re trying to do with Zodiark and afterwards.

[@Maria_Erias]

Garret at the end of 5.0 in Shadowbringers: "What the hell happens in *Endwalker?* All I know is there's more and people aren't mad." Well, now you're starting to know, guys. ♥

[@LadyKross]

Going into the symbolism of Venat's journey through the 'void', it's been discussed by several (in my circle of friends anyway) that while it was Venat's long journey through time, that the points where she is roughed up and gets progressively more messed up is a representation of the damage she endured due to the Rejoinings and the overpowering essence of Zodiark's strengthening making her weaker. The parallel of her with the shots of you walking towards Emet is a demonstration of finding the strength to continue on.

[@AlphabetSoup3000]

I remembered to count this time! There were 8 flashes, which could still count as the rejoinings if she remembered the one we erased, somehow. That could also in a way explain why she has been so quiet for such a long time... we'll never know for sure of course. Maybe one of them was a reference to the creation of the Void instead.

[@darkedge221]

One thing that really got me aside from everything the bois and the chat has mentioned is the re-contextualization of the song Answers. Years and years, people have attached it to Bahamut exploding Eorzea. And then they made a whole new cutscenes with the same song and suddenly it still made sense. Even more so than as a 1.0 song

[@Junebug89]

It's not really a recontextualization, at least not from the authors - the song existed before Bahamut was written into the story. This is what it has always been about. The lyrics have always been about overcoming despair and finding meaning in the world. I would argue this is a theme that runs throughout the whole game too, it's just especially focused on in Endwalker.

[@darkedge221]

@@Junebug89 It's a re-contextualisation in a sense that at the start, people thinks it's a conversation between Hydaelyn and her children. In Endwalker, it evolved to more than that. There's still Hydaelyn and her children but with added context of what happened before the sundering, Venat speaking to her brethren.

[@siyrean]

@@Junebug89 it's not a retcon it is a contextualization. Its how a lot of story building works, when you start finding ways to tie new things in with past events.

[@kendric99]

3 streams. 1 zone. 2 levels of quests (86 & 87). And in that short span it managed to impact and recontextualize all of Endwalker, and even things going all the way back to Answers, which was first used in the cutscene that ended 1.0. It's just a freakin masterclass in storytelling. I loved this part, and loved watching it again tonight with you both playing through. Good games just freakin rule.

[@Deode-d4h]

Just to compare, we were in Trolley town during Shadowbringers for it's equivalent 76-77 questing. And although Magnus and his story were impactful, I say Elpis, Venat, Hades, and Hythlodaeus made a slightly more impressive showing. Slightly.

[@AFortifiedBatcave]

getting answers for Answers in Endwalker that make sense is astounding given where 14 started and where it is now, both in staff and just general writing is astoundingly well tied together.

[@rokutsubasa4544]

I saw that chat was explaining it but I wanted to comment on it too. Hythlo did't return to the star, he was trapped in Zodiark, so he didn't have his memories when you met him on the moon. Super excited for the Elpis video!

[@fredy2041]

Exacly! Yet for some reason so many of the community arent paying attencion to this important detail, trust me there are many. Its the same issue like with the Canary girl. He called the WoL new old friend beacuse of his Soul, it was a coincidence, but also not so.

[@WoWRefugee]

However, you have to remember that Hylo meeting us on the moon is not the only important scene. You are correct on his shade, but the scene just after Fandanny jumps into Zodiark and effectively 'Kills' all the shades within. They finally retun to the star, and as they do, Hythlo gets his memories back and we see him not as a shade, but full ancient form where he comments to his friend, and specifically uses the name 'Hades' not the title Emet-Selch. That was Hythlo remembering, at least that's how I understood that. It only makes sense.

[@harryh6807]

@@WoWRefugeeyou are correct, he regained his memories at that point.

[@fredy2041]

@@WoWRefugee Zodiark is not gone yet. What are you talkking about?

[@fredy2041]

@@harryh6807 No, he did not

[@Supersenkel2]

Just a small note for Garret, if you do Duty Support for the dungeon and let Emet tank, he is indeed a Dark Knight :)

[@JelisW]

A damned good one too. Boy is _tanky_ af, even when you force wall pulls.

[@Someone-dv7hw]

​@@JelisW they are all the most competent trust npcs... as far as I recall Hythlo properly does aoe even? Or maybe I am gaslighting myself on that... been a while

[@aznhomig]

Thou must live, die, and know....

[@serisothikos]

1:22:55 - "We are practiced at perceiving truth, and would have known had Fandaniel lied to us." Just like he would've known if you lied to him when you told him your tale.

[@elias.t]

To be fair, he might have believed we were completely off our rocker instead.

[@darkedge221]

Oh! Also I felt so much sadness for Emet-Selch. He suffered so much and got twisted into to doing so much horrific things his past-self balked at the idea of doing. All so he could "save" his brethren. And that smile when he saw us off and accepting his fate just crushed me.

[@JelisW]

I was crying _buckets_ . Tbh I'm still not over the tragedy of that. They _knew_ . For a moment they knew and it seemed like they could have saved _their_ timeline. But nope, they knew, and then they forgot, and it all came crashing down anyway, and Emet, this Emet who was good and genuinely _outraged_ at the thought he could do what he did, well, he ended up that way all the same, going through all that loss and years and years of loneliness. I was heartbroken. Still am, really.

[@TITANCREED]

Venat's "walk" hit me hard. It made me think of all the times my parents did things for me when I was young, without me ever knowing about it. I'm the same age as you two, and hoping to become a father soon, so it was the right imagery at the right time. Also, I love the English dub, but there are some very interesting differences in the performances here. In the Japanese dub, Meteion's line delivery at the end of the dungeon is pitying and relieved to have given up. In English, she seems spiteful and aggressive. They're two very different, but equally good, takes on how she is externalizing her nihilism.

[@TheIvoryDingo]

Since I stayed up for this, my trivia comes early! Firstly, the song that plays in Ktisis Hyperborea is named "Miracle Works". Secondly, it is no doubt clear that the song played during Venat's scene at the end of the zone is "Answers" (a song written for the finale of 1.0 whose lyrics were given a MAJOR re-contextualisation thanks to Endwalker), but what some may not realise is that it isn't the only song that plays during that sequence. During the part where Venat is talking to the zealot Ancients the song instead shifts to "From the Ashes" an arrangement of "Answers" that was previously used during the second to last fight of the Coils of Bahamut against Phoenix aka Lousoix. Lastly, on a non music related bit of trivia, Lethe (the lake you walk through with Emet to find Meteion) has some very sobering lore tied to it thanks to its Sight Seeing Log. It states as follows: "Following a process of exhaustive testing, a creation deemed unsuitable for release into the world is brought to this lake, where its life energies are magically unbound and allowed to dissipate. It is at once the most beautiful as well as the most sorrowful locale in Elpis." So yeah... that lake effectively serves a purpose akin to euthanasia... Joy.

[@Junebug89]

Answers was actually written before the launch of FFXIV 1.0, although the end of an era cinematic is its first appearance in its full glory.

[@tazersmurf4689]

That lake has an even bigger emotional damage impact as Lethe in Greek means oblivion, forgetfulness or concealment. Lethe is also one of the rivers in the Underground. As the river of forgetfulness. So that one spot is doing a lot of emotional damage and foreshadowing.

[@mr.mystere4999]

1:48:00 Absolutely NOBODY saw any of this coming! The devs did a banger of a job keeping us all in the dark and making us all think Zodiark was going to be the expansion's final boss. Little did any of us know that He would be the first trial.

[@Zikoro]

Seeing Kyle grinning/smiling hearing the reports from Meteion is so fun. Getting into literal galaxy level of lore is just a hefty meal for lore nerds.

[@roetheboat1]

I really, REALLY, REALLY liked how the reveal of Meteion being the cause of the Final Days was handled. It wasn’t some alien creature who hijacked or possessed Meteion. Hermes inadvertently created a system that allowed for Meteion to become something like a universal gestalt of despair, pain, and hatred.

[@LeonardZhang03711]

1:44:00 Catalyst 2:01:47 Garrett Squee 2:14:58 Meteion's Report 3:25:20 Sophistry 3:51:14 Garrett: "My Brain...my brain..." 4:17:49 SUNDER 4:20:25 Garrett The Vibrating 😂

[@dyslexicfaser]

Tuna Nocrust: "Now friends, you might be wondering where I've been for... three hours? What the fuck. Only thr-? Okay, whatever! Sit down. Stuff happened!"

[@dyslexicfaser]

Once everyone is seated, Val Gaunt kicks the door in with a whiteboard covered in scribbles under one arm. "I have some ideas!"

[@toontoosh]

​@@dyslexicfaser"ALIENS, Y'ALL'

[@fredy2041]

@@toontoosh But it was Aliens

[@LamhirhAbriel]

The Emet shade in Seat of Sacrifice is you literally summoning him using Azem's crystal. The Hythlo on the moon recognizes you as new old friend because he recognizes the color of your soul as that of an old friend but diminished. That friend is, of course, the Azem who succeeded Venat, ran into an errupting volcano to save grapes (and the people living on it) using Ifrit, and abandoned the Convocation.

[@TaurusVersant]

"Henceforth, he shall walk" absolutely biblical line

[@Lagzlot]

4:16:22 That is the look of seeing a loved one go over the brink, whether mentally, physically, or both. The Old Yeller moment. When there is only one option left.

[@PoorGamingHabits]

Also as alot of people forget, Venat is a retiree of the Convocation, She is OLD compared to Hytho, Emet, even Lahabrea, and especially Elidibus. But she held on, so long, to make sure the future would survive. And never gave up hope, in us, her champion, her final chance, to see the world she loves live on.

[@Maria_Erias]

Also, when Hermes binds everyone at the end of Ktisis, it's Venat who breaks free first. Emet breaks everyone else out after she attacks Hermes and distracts, and has to break out his Ascian mask to do it. I think that's also a good indication of not only her strength of will, but her power compared to the others.

[@bauloprete3905]

Ehhh. Venta is not older than Lahabreah

[@zecendia]

@@bauloprete3905 The info on that is actually a bit janky,as the ll this info comes from also note that Hyth CLAIMS hes emets age and that Venat CLAIMS shes ,while old,still younger than Lahabrea. For the curious reading this-and this info obv goes by when we were in elpis: Emet and Hyth are both considered to be fully matured. Lahabrea is considered an old man,Venat is also considered to be on the older end. [endwalker patch spoilers] Elidibus/Themis is essentially barely a legal adult. Also the specific liveletter in question is a Korean ll for anyone wondering,and the questions were answered by Banri Oda,who is one of the people managing the lore.

[@fredy2041]

@@zecendia Its not janky at all. Lahabreah looks and is the oldest member.

[@bauloprete3905]

​​@@zecendia Your incorrect. It's very much stated that Lahabreah is the oldest member in the convocation. It's even on the recent lore book. You and PoorGamingHabits are very incorrect here.

[@Phex1]

That they were able to perfectly fit the Lyrics of "Answers" in a Cutscene 10 years later,so the Song become perfectly fitting for the entire Storyarc will be the biggest Flex i ever see a team if writers do. No to mention giving "Hear. Feel. Think" some real meaning.

[@Dastreus]

The fucking Elpis exit cinematic is one of the best in gaming history imo. It's so fucking nuts.

[@KatyWhitekavkj]

I'm guessing Hydaelyn didn't tell you more than she did, because as the WoL talking to Venat in Elpis, you didn't tell her more than YOU did. She wouldn't risk upsetting the delicate balance in place by telling you more in the the future than you relayed to her in the past. :) Awesome stream, btw. THIS is the moment so many of us have been waiting for. Hands down the best cutscene of the game, imo - and that's a tough competition. It was so lovely to see you both get here at last.

[@shaicat]

Gotta love the absolute masterclass recontextualization the writers did for Answers in this.

[@midnightmiqo]

When I say Endwalker both helped and hurt my mid-life crisis and existential dread, it's moments like the "walk" here that I am referring to. When she re-iterates the "the question" from Answers (don't demonitize my comment), it just hits close to home. But the hope she present in the same moment, about choosing to keep walking, feels like such a powerful lesson. Questioning the meaning of life, of how to deal, overcome, and live with sorrow, with despair, with inevitability, and dealing with these questions in such a nuanced and powerful way in an MMO story is unfathomable and why this team gets so much deserved praise.

[@justlilygrace]

This is the only game and the expansion made me realized what is the true meaning of life and my purpose why I live. “To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.”― Friedrich Nietzsche

[@sweetpanic705]

Yes❤

[@justlilygrace]

@@sweetpanic705 absolutely. The resilience.

[@sheikaitheblueberryelf4938]

It doesn't matter how many times I see the end of that quest series, I cry every time I hear Answers now that we have full context. As always, love your streams, guys. ❤️

[@VashimuXIV]

That segment of Venat enacting the sundering. It gives me legitimate shivers every time. Oh I love this story so much. “Henceforth, he shall walk.”

[@AVarghul]

I've been in here, but i had to come back after i saw Garrett literally vibrate on the Venaat / WOL juxtaposition, it was SO funny LOL Truly, a fantastic time loop and it explains the lenghts Hydaelyn went through just to keep this one individual safe, ever since she shielded you from UW's primal attacks and even Ultima itself.

[@paiz3505]

The rawest line for me in the entire Elpis section is "I will make a judgment on man's fitness to exist." Truly the best written character in the game

[@Deode-d4h]

Careful, you're gonna get the anti-Hermes squad on you lol. In all seriousness, Hermes had some killer lines. I think my favorite part is the fact he did not go with Meteion and remained a man. Adds that extra layer of nuance that although he creates this determination, he will also subject himself to it and see through it until the end.

[@paiz3505]

@@Deode-d4h Yes, he understood that as a human he wants humanity to live on, yet he subjects them to such an arduous trial. I honestly think he did that because he truly believed in mankind's potential to overcome despair and be better. A really amazing character from Ishikawa.

[@Deode-d4h]

@@paiz3505 Definitely. Actually, I just remembered my actual favorite Hermes moment was when he gave the side eye to Hades before putting us in chains. I believe Hermes was actually pissed Emet had the gall to say "Who are you to decide if we live or die?" Hermes probably thought "That's what I've been trying to say about our creations this entire time."

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@Deode-d4h Except, and this is the fundamental problem with Hermes, he himself refuses to actually do anything to change things himself. He always expect someone else to give him the answers and to create the solutions to the problem, and by trying to do so, ends up doing everything he condemns others for but 1000x worse. He doesn’t just condemn The Ancients after all, but any world that hasn’t been touched yet. Emet makes abundantly clear he believes he can not only be a good Fandaniel, but use that position to bring the change Hermes WANTS. And in the end Hermes doesn’t actually believe his reasoning, which we also know because Hades can tell when someone is lying. Its what he shares with his following incarnations. That same self-wallowing misery and hell of his own making where he expects others to give him the answer. He expected the universe to teach him happiness when the Dynamis he only ever showed Meteion was sorrow and despair, and thus the emotions she would be drawn to the most, and then he demanded answers from the report regardless of the fact Meteion ran away FROM HIM because she knew how he would react and didn’t want that to happen, and he became the final push to drive all her sisters insane(notice he doesn’t have any unique names for them as well?). Amon would do the same self-destructive desires and tendencies when he revives Xande to restore Allagan into a warmongering empire, actively stopped anything that could benefit society like the cure for tempering even before returning to be an Ascian, and his self-destructive desire to see Allagan ruined when Xande confirmed the nihilistic answer he wanted that Emet offered him back his former position for being benefiting their cause even before he was elevated to Fandaniel. Fact is, by the very nature of what he did, he proves every fear and reason behind Elpis was correct: He sent thousands of children, who he never parented and who he expected to be raised by the universe, to be raised by them instead. Never even conceiving that the vastness of space is also traumatizing and why Omega and Midgardsomnr struggled to reach Etheirys and could never conceive of leaving. It’s why you don’t just introduce creatures into the wild and expect things to work out. That’s how you destroy ecosystems, and the Ancients in Elpis don’t just restart after one failure. They try numerous times to give new species or plants a chance, and some just are fundamentally too dangerous to be introduced into the world. With the fact that the Meteia creations are so dangerous that killing them is the right thing to do thanks to Hermes own failure to watch and refusal to help the creations he create grow. I think people forget this part when they act like Hermes has a point. He made something so fundamentally dangerous that it has to be put down.

[@Deode-d4h]

@@BlackfangDragon There is a lot in here that feels either disingenuous or outright uncharitable towards Hermes. You make it sound like he just sat on his ass for 80% of his life not trying to find a solution or answer. We saw probably not even 1% of this guy's life, something tells me he tried to find answers, tried to talk to people, and the fact when we meet him he made a super empath child to help him find the meaning of in his life sounds pretty indicative that he is nearing his wits ends that he has to resort to aliens. Also don't act like Hermes sent out the Meteia for that outcome. That was unforseen and he didn't even know that Dynamis and the Meteia could do what it did. Sure you can call him hypocritical for using the Meteia in the way he did, but mistreating or not taking their creations as truly living beings is more an ingrained Ancient societal problem than a Hermes problem. Yes, you can say Hermes should know better, but just like how there were Jim Crow era Americans who wanted equality, but never wanting to end segregated schools, it's Hermes not understanding the full weight of what he actually says he believes in. Sure you can call him an edge lord with his whole "Woe is me, no one understands my plight." The fact his conversation with Hades after the Lycans demise ends the way it did, makes it apparent he's had that conversation many times. All of them ending just as unsatisfactory. And yeah, you are right, he sent out thousands of unregulated creations, again this appears to me more as a desperation ploy than one of rational thought. And again, he didn't know that Dynamis and the Meteia would be that potent of a combination. You have some points right, but Christ the way you wrote stuff made it sound like you're about to say Hermes was wrong for being depressed, that all of the actions he took because of his depression was wrong, and he should feel bad about it. That him trying to find meaning in his life is wrong. Hermes didn't know many things, didn't know how to handle his issues, or how to find meaning in his life. He tried to find help, he most likely didn't get any. He made the Meteia to help find that meaning, and he unintentionally murdered hundreds of thousands of worlds.

[@VioletMoonfox]

While I agree that Shadowbringers is a bit better as a standalone, as part of the entire story, Endwalker is one of the greatest things I've ever played, the Venat scene is one of the reasons. Like, this story is so impactful, and Endwalker is just able to wrap up so much of everything that comes before. And then there's Answers in that scene. That song has taken on multiple meanings since it was first used at the end of 1.0, and now this.

[@anaalvensleben789]

Honestly, I kind of think Shadowbringers in people's minds relies heavily on its strong beginning (Tesleen) and the bonkers 5.0 ending. If you do direct comparisons of content level by level? The fetch quests of Ill Mehg are up against Garlemald/The Moon. Raktika against Matsya and the baby arc. The Sineater attack/Trolley arc is against Elpis. Yes, there some pacing lulls in Endwalker, but I feel like they stand out so much because the rest of the expansion was baller. People remember the lopporitts because it pulled the e-break on heavy shit, but seem to forget about the fetch quest of the fae/Raktika because it was mostly low key the entire time. Just imo.

[@VioletMoonfox]

@@anaalvensleben789 I'm mostly talking about story, not gameplay. Endwalker *relies* on knowledge of everything from before. While Shadowbringers has a bit of that, it's to a lesser extent. So in that regard, ShB is slightly stronger as a *standalone*. But as part of a whole, I like Endwalker so much more.

[@siyrean]

@@anaalvensleben789 i'll take the slow parts of ShBs over any of the lopporitt slogs any day. The Zenos body swap in Garlemald not having any consequences felt like a cop out. and something in the future a lot of people complained about is still to come. I liked Endwalker but the things that pissed me off in it as just bad story writing really hurt it. I will say Endwalker is a fabulous capstone considering the weight on its shoulders, but stand a lone, no.

[@anaalvensleben789]

@@VioletMoonfox Oh yeah, I understand now. I think as a finale, a stand alone story wouldn't have worked anyway :)

[@anaalvensleben789]

@@siyrean Sure, but SHB had Ranjit who was way more prevalent along with Y'shtola Fakeout #2. If we're thinking of the same thing, I still maintain the complaints were more missing the point, which was 'what gives you the strength to forge ahead?'

[@seekittycat]

The despair on Garrett's face when he realize Kyle is right and it's Ancient Aliens all along.

[@Daecoth]

You mean the LACK of aliens? ☠️

[@kihrakkal]

I just have to say, that among all the magnificent voice actors in this game I must give credit for Meteion's voice actor. Phenomenal performance!

[@evrfreez]

The definitive Endwalker cutscene. To see it happen after years of build-up and mentions.. to finally understand her, to understand Hydaelyn, what she had to endure.. and to understand what led up to it. I knew this stream was gonna be a banger, and I can't wait for the videos.

[@shadow8928]

One thing to note for Hydaeylin being cryptic, she has been stated to be so weak at the point where you came into the picture by ARR that communicating was a struggle for her.

[@Krysta1Rose]

Its taken me TWO YEARS to realise the Hermes transformation was an excellent reskin of Ramuh. Bloody clever devs

[@Erroratu]

I haven't seen a closed time loop this compelling since I've watched Space Warrior Baldios

[@fredy2041]

To everyone here, Hythlodaeus did not called us "new old friend" on the moon beacuse he knew the WoL from Elpis. No, his sould was still attached to Zodiark, he was denied release into the Underworld like all others that were sacrifised. So please, dont be misleading.

[@luc1ferous]

Thou must live, die, and know... Always, always fucks me up. The enormity of what Venat did knowing what it would cost her. Always there by our side even when we could no longer hear her voice, every step of the way sheltering us from blows that should've un-made us...

[@bakashinobi42]

When I played this section of MSQ, I had to wait two hours to get into the game. When finished this section of the MSQ, I had to log off for the night even though I still had 2 more hours I could play. I needed to decompress after that section; it landed so well.

[@FahneXIV]

I’m getting “Henceforth, he shall walk” tattooed on me somewhere one of these days, its so raw

[@piens51]

Will you go on long walks too. To make it double meaning?

[@FahneXIV]

@@piens51 I plan too! It’ll be on my calf as well for triple meaning

[@jaylee9372]

I think the weight of this story, and especially this section of it (Venat's cutscene in particular), was even heavier due to experiencing it in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic. It was an echoing of a moment that felt like the world was changing in an irrevocable way. Many people quarantined in their homes, eyes glued to screens watching as death tolls across the world rose from hundreds to thousands to millions. Tens of thousands of people dying daily and a foreboding sense that maybe this was what life would be going forward. Would we ever return to the days of being able to spontaneously go out and about our lives without the threat our bodies being compromised by something we couldn't even see let alone fully understand. It's clear the writers were deliberately drawing on that feeling of impending annihilation. A moment where everyone saw humanity abruptly confront our collective mortality. With all the existential reflections such an experience begs. It's kinda wild how Endwalker can swing so strongly between moments of pure, unadulterated camp and...some really raw shit tbh.

[@serisothikos]

I love how the game you think you're playing before you sit down to dinner in Radz-at-Han and the game you're playing after you get back from Elpis are so very different.

[@Defixio.]

The great filter! Its really cool seeing the concept explored in fantasy

[@ZeepZerp]

There're two things about Venat. One, Everyone meets her on the boat, and I'd bet at least half say, "I can't trust you." And two, throughout the game lots of players think, "Why is Hydaelyn so cryrptic? Just tell us what to do!" That's on you. You told her your life story. She laughed at parts of it. You gave her the script, she just read from it. This is referred to as a bootstrap paradox. It's my favorite sort of paradox. And for the player that says, "I think she's lying/evil/untrustworthy." That's you too. That's a generation raised to be cynics. Be less cynical. Be skeptical, sure. Don't be cynical.

[@Torlonus]

I trusted Hydaelyn on the boat but that's because I wanted there to be a good power. I can completely understand not wanting to trust her but the fact that she's a primal didn't override all the times she helped us. Regardless the walk is where a lot of people realize maybe she's good. Another streamer I watched called Hydaelyn evil right up to that cut scene then never again. Welcome to act 3 of Endwalker, I hope you enjoy it.

[@keithfilibeck2390]

Venat is one of the most amazing, resolute characters in video gaming, the sheer willpower to face this task alone for thousands and thousands of years, to prove that humanity deserves to live, is amazing.

[@Churee]

Everything in this last segment is what made, in my opinion, Elpis one of the greatest MMO zones ever created.

[@Cat_Sidhe]

This is for Garrett. Believe it or not people truly did predict aliens (even though that is technically wrong) because of The Watcher's explanation about celestial currents back on the moon.

[@shaicat]

There was also that morse code the crystal tower was picking up from beyond the star that had people speculating aliens.

[@fredy2041]

Its you who is correct. Garret is right, it is aliens.

[@bauloprete3905]

As Fred wrote. Your wrong in here. Dead aliens are still aliens.

[@shaicat]

Meteion is from Ethyris tho so it was a native, not an alien, that was responsible for the final days.

[@Cat_Sidhe]

@@shaicat thank you

[@drayman101]

The thing I love about Venat is that she is the antithesis of Emet. She held true to her ideals and goals over the span of eons, despite the weight of the burden and pain it caused her to do so. Emet also did this, but out of love of the people he knew and loved from before our current world, rather than the ones who came after like Venat did. Hermes challenged man with proving their worth to exist, in contempt of the Ancient's readiness to do the same to their own creation. Venat had faith that they would do so. Emet denied their worthiness altogether, in favor of the people of old.

[@sheep9288]

Love the thumbnail art ❤

[@XIIIthHour]

That moment when you realize the lyrics from Answers isn't about Bahamut and the people of the world then, but about the Ancients... god that cutscene gets me every. time.

[@karlrassmann4604]

This was my first time catching a reaction to the Elpis finale where the streamer didn't cry. Glad you found sheer hype and joy in it!

[@scottstuddert9178]

Got to the stream just in time for the end, then had to hunt down the video they watched at the end. Yeah, gonna need the sandwich video after that.

[@marcieconrad9413]

I got emotional a few times throughout my playthrough of Endwalker. But during that Venat cutscene, I was BALLING. I was not okay. My husband came in and asked what was wrong and I couldn't even speak. Going back to the Source after ALL OF THAT was so disorienting. I was so mentally and physically drained. I couldn't sleep that night. LOL 😂 Congrats for getting this far guys. I saw you around 5.5k viewers during this stream, which was insane! You deserve it!

[@DXDragon38]

BeneG always hits you with the emotional Gut Punches!

[@amymcwilliams24601]

So happy you got to this point. Sidebar: you two drive safe when you're driving so late at night!!

[@LithiaDargon]

4:13:37-- Is that the Chthonic Riddle that we fight in Amaurot?? I didn't notice it on my play through, but it feels like such a cool detail if so.

[@Gwydion_Wolf]

god dangit...... just watched this video today..... the moment she says "No more shall man have wings to bear him to Paradise.....".... i get goosebumps... Every, Darn, Time!

[@DXDragon38]

This was a great stream! Glad I was able to catch it all Live.

[@WoWRefugee]

I love how they incorporated the ARR theme Answers into that cutscene and how they somehow made the lyrics make sense in how the story unfolds. They have said that they didn't have this planned out in ARR, so I love how they were able to understand what they created in the past and incorporated it into future storytelling. Feels like how the writers of Better Call Saul worked. Would love your thoughts on how you feel FFXIV handled their world and lore. Also, I don't know if this is right, but Garrett seemed emotionally overwhelmed by the end and Kyle, your smile just made me think of your inner Dungeon Master just thrilled at how they were handling the story???

[@youtousim]

If they put your guy's Hythlodaeus and Emet dubs into the game, I would be hard pressed to recognize a difference. Impeccable!

[@paiz3505]

That was a great stream Hoping 2 videos to come out of elpis 🤞

[@BloodKitten_]

about the dungeon, the first boss, the trusts actually have diffrent reactions to the hide mechanic, trusts is diffrent from duty support since they are avatars you have to level up, but thancred, graha, aliase, alphinode, yshtola, estinian, urianger, all have diffrent thing they say and do in the first boss only. something that is easially missable in duty support is emet, reguardless if he is a tank or DPS, he sometime snap his finger between attacks.

[@FingerPuppetSarcasm]

Venat is such a wise beautiful person, i love her character.

[@MacTaipan]

Damn, Venat‘s walk is so tough to follow. What I find even more fascinating than the fantastic story as such, is that (AFAIK) the whole resolution was improvised on the foundation of the story of the main game (and possibly the first expansions), that was in turn created without having that resolution planned out at the time. That takes skill that is unfathomable for me.

[@e-rankluck2594]

I love how you can see the exact moment Emet just absolutely shatters

[@HMNNO]

I guess it's only me that got teary eyed when emet said not to squander the legacy he left us

[@starofaetherius]

Its such a nice reflection on his quote from shadowbringers: "you cannot be entrusted with our legacy" Also. You are not alone.

[@sweetpanic705]

#3 HERE. I wept for my lost friend.

[@knicknevin9975]

I love how we go from 'oh my god Meteion contacted aliens and they are not friendly' to 'everyone she found was either dead or in the process of self destruction and she came to the conclusion that death was a natural and desirable state for living things'. Like, everyone, EVERYone immediately thought when she made her first 'contact' with the other Meteia that she'd come into contact with some kind of nihilistic galactic super entity like the Reapers or something. Instead she was MADE the nihilistic galactic super entity.

[@knicknevin9975]

Also, there WAS a breadcrumb trail for this reveal. Midgardsormr had traveled for eons fleeing from Omega and when he landed on this world he said it was... I forget exactly what he said. A last hope, or something along those lines. Middy considered this world as being the only one that he and his children might have any chance to thrive on. Omega's narration of it's pursuit across the cosmos was much the same as what Meteion found- dead worlds, extinct worlds, uninhabitable worlds. Both of them traveled for a long, long time before coming to this world. Also, going all the way back to the Crystal Tower, in that final cutscene of the story, the sensor Nero tossed into the gulley around the tower pinged out a message in Morse Code- 'It's all wrong'. The same thing Meteion said right after she made contact and the shared consciousness showed her what they had found. To be fair, this scene was most likely repurposed, but Ishikawa was still the person who wrote it, so I can assume she put it in there intending to do SOMEthing with it, eventually.

[@EndanDrachon]

"Last bastion of Hope," I believe.​@@knicknevin9975

[@ninjafoxgamesgeekery]

You want an additional mind blow, albeit definitely unintended? Let's accept that each reflection is simply a bubble in space. Meaning if you had built the Ragnarok on each reflection and departed the planet, you would eventually reach a point in space where all 13 Reflection Ragnaroks and Source Ragnarok would be present together. The idea being that Venat sundered the world into reflections, not all of the universe into reflected universes, just the planet & its moon. If we accept that premise, then one of the worlds the Meteions visited is....ours. We're one of those dead planets. Since it's all officially canonical, Meteion would have found the Earth we inhabit centuries in the future after the Red Eyes, after the Gestalt project failed, after there was no sentient life left on Earth neither human nor alien. She would have found nothing but the remaining ruins of robots and YorHa androids, though one of the NieR Automata endings suggests 9S departs on the ship with the robots. With all the 2B copies towards the end of that game, but with her memories still in tact somewhere along it all, that explains the robots' - and 2B & 9S - arrival on The First to some extent (if you squint and don't get too deep into details). There would still be a need to explain how the Meteions found that Earth from original space and yet that Earth's robots/androids arrived on the First rather than the Source, but the full specifics of the reflections as parallel worlds vs place within the universe isn't fully detailed, so there's wiggle room. But it's crazy to think that the Drakengard Ending E and the full NeiR lore actually ties into XIV canon fairly well.

[@kitten1591]

I never saw this coming that the final boss (per se), the Final Days even, the theme of Answers, the story of the Ancients/Hydaelyn/Zodiark, of FF14, is despair; the purpose of Life; Existential. It's not just some crazy villain (like Zenos) or even Zodiark. It's an emotion! A state of mind. One that breaks the 4th wall; meta. Something that has/gets players to question and ponder. In Shadowbringers all we knew was we knew OF the Final Days but we didn't know what that entailed. Some foreign cataclysm like an Alien or a Meteor perhaps. But this was of the Ancients' (well, Hermes') own doing. Inner turmoil and strife. Idk even what to say, it blows my mind and it's awesome.

[@TheDrosul]

Still remember Venat drawing her sword on the other amouritines, and the guy turning around and looking specifically at the sword.... And 100% expecting it to be a murder scene where she goes very dark and anakin/younglings them all down. Distinctly remember thinking at the time "man, she's going to go on a murder spree.. That is a hell of an artistic choice narratively speaking".... Definitely forgot their "weapons" are more like wands to channel their magic through.

[@brylldelfin2449]

You have lived, died and now you know...

[@JayRhea]

That cutscene, that cutscene.... I consider myself an OG gamer, picked up my first joystick with the Atari 2600 when I was 3 years old. No other game have I played, within my memory, has done such a excellent job of such a beautiful merging of story, cutscene, and music which leaves (literally) everyone who goes through it physically and emotionally stun locked. And all of this in a section of an expansion did they turn everything on its head.

[@zachq9005]

HENCEFORTH, HE SHALL WALK! The most metal

[@bainik]

The answer to how you would spoil this succinctly: "twitter is really bad for your mental health."

[@TheTriforceDragon]

Something that you might want to reremember (hah) if you havent already, since it has been a while, is the scene where Montichaigne gives you a lesson on Memory Manipulation. Given what happened in Elpis, you might make some new realizations (and more cooking is always nice).

[@youtousim]

0/10 stream: Not enuff crying! D : for real though: you guys are 11/10, and your recaps a legacy already. Keep doing what you do, you are awesome!

[@cekefun]

I'm sorry Venat... I'm sorry... I truly believed that it was her voice on the moon after we defeated Zodiark... I believed it until that cutscene, where it showed us Her suffering for the continuation of our Star.

[@komurmaldeb]

To be honest, while I do understand why you'd distrust Venat and I've seen a fair share of people who did at the time, even starting Endwalker I still trusted her. I think what it came down to for me was just that she had her chances to mess with us at any point beforehand, and she always seemed to legitimately want to help. As you had discussed re: moon business at level 83, she tries her best to keep Zenos and Fandaniel away from the moon prison, and it just never tracked to me that she'd *want* Zodiark dead after putting up all that effort. I guess what it comes down to is that I respect your reasons for doubting her at the start, but I stand firm that if I say "but how could you doubt her!" I did not, in fact, previously doubt her myself. Not that I'd ever say that though, because y'know it's just kinda rude :v

[@Sketchblopp]

I love how I debated with friends pre EW what the big baddie in the end will be and some said "Aliens!" and some said "Something from the Source", which seemed like an obvious contradiction. And yet somehow they made both things come true at the same time: Ancient beings from Etheirys who traveled to outer space and lived there so long you might as well call them aliens at this point. It was an amazing revelation. :D

[@itsjezzer]

There's a reason there are a ton of videos on KZbin named "Streamer Reacts to THAT Cutscene -- FFXIV"

[@absollum]

As someone who believed in Hydaelyn since the beginning, I don't fully understand why people believed she was evil. I get some of it, but there was more than enough evidence to me that she had the best intentions. If anything, I've seen more people try and have streamers doubt Hydaelyn, so they feel the same way they did at that cutscene. It's kinda annoys me personally, but I don't usually voice my discontent since it involves spoilers. That, and I dislike spreading my "negativity." Still, it brings me some level of satisfaction when people's opinions of her are changed during Elpis and the final cutscene. It's like watching an underdog get there moment, but in a emotionally sad way.

[@tazersmurf4689]

Part of it goes all the way back to the artwork used for The Gears of Change. Though for some it goes even further than that with how they interpreted Minfillia getting that message from Hydelean to go run towards Y'shtola's first use of Flow. Then there is the whole God is evil trope. So even if there was no indication for the longest time that she was bad, could be bad or was being shady af many people bought a ticket for the Hydelean is evil train and never have chosen to get off it.

[@fredy2041]

The comummiity baited themselfs into believing this. Its the diference between people who pay attencion and those who doesnt. Its the same reason as to why many thought that Thancred was a bad father to Ryne at first.

[@siyrean]

people going off popular genre tropes. This is actually a subversion from many FF games, so its very understandable. isn't there like a joke in final fantasy that by the end you can always count on going to space and killing god?

[@absollum]

@@siyrean with FF in particular, the god is generally built up as evil in the first place. The closest non-spoiler example I can give is the Pope in HW. He was trying to seem friendly in his first interaction with you, but later cutscenes show that he's super shady and will be an antagonist for the player. Basically, the villains/antagonists are almost never subtle in FF. Their plans may be subtle, but they themselves aren't. If the characters don't realize they're bad, the players usually will. That's why Hydaelyn being a villain made no sense to me. With the information we had going into EW, I didn't see enough pointing in that direction.

[@Dewkeeper]

Yeah, the guys talk about how the people saying how can you not believe in Hydaelyn etc are acting on later information... Heck no! I made fun of the 'Hydaelyn evil' crowd before, during and after 6.0 Nothing indicates that she's acting against our interests, and the only people who paint her negatively are villains themselves. Hell, Middy personally vouches for her character, and he's a dad who flew across the universe for his kids. As cliche as it sounds, people should've had some faith. Having faith in your fellows is pretty much the central message of not just EW, but the entire game from at least 2.0 onwards.

[@BalsamicThunder]

Meiton's voice acting after the end of the dungeon is fantastic.

[@FoxBatinaHat]

3:31:30 who are you to choose whether we live or die.... (Alphinaud?)

[@pedroscoponi4905]

The thing that lends the time travel in Endwalker strength, and the thing that I think works well in other media, is not focusing too much on crazy twists and strange logic, but instead finding an _emotional_ anchor for it. It's much, much easier to ignore the inevitable little inconsistencies or points of confusion if the emotional core of the experience is clear, and here it is _crystal clear,_ pun intended.

[@sweetpanic705]

Welcome to....actually, nevermind. You live here now. With 'Answers' on repeat. Like the rest of us😅 Stellar stream, guys! #ethicalvampire

[@ZonathaN_611]

Great stream boys! So... one more Jesse podcast before the end of 6.0?

[@Merandil94]

What really gets me about this is that Venat is aware of the fact that she is inflicting such great, great pain upon all that live (and die) on the shards. That might just be her greatest struggle of all.

[@RabidJohn]

I've got all 4 healers at lvl 90 and AST is my least favourite. I have enough on just dealing with mechanics, doing dmg and keeping on top of the healing, without wondering who gets which card or which minor arcana I want to use. SGE is fun and SCH is great when you know the fights, but I'm a WHM main for its simplicity. Props to Kyle for sticking with AST and making it work well.

[@EloquentTroll]

Fellow WHM main! All I have to do is dodge mechanics and put health back in bars!

[@rivenoak]

yep, time travel is fickle but now you know why Argus on the moon knows and trusts us: we were in Elpis some ten thousand years ago already and won his trust. for the strange part: afaik we never told Venat we kicked personally Hermes's ass already when we slapped the sundered version of Fandaniel in the Crystal Tower raid we know as Amon. we had to go to Elpis to trigger everything which prompts us to visit Elpis etc.

[@siyrean]

tbf that was a clone.

[@ninjafoxgamesgeekery]

I actually don't know that this is a time loop as it appears. There's too much sprinkled in to suggest the that paradox may not be in play here. G'raha talks about changing the past and rewriting history to stop the Eighth Umbral Calamity didn't actually stop that future from existing. There's a line where it sounds more like Marvel timelines where it causes a split. The horrible timeline future still exists and everyone G'raha cared about died or suffers, but they created a better future by altering the past (which we're now in). Elidibus says you can't change anything by going into the past. Meaning you can't change things so that it would result in erasing yourself. That would suggest branching timeline rather than time travel altering the future (present you're from). Venat has a line about the two times converging, which I at first interpreted as the original timeline and the altered resulting from our time travel (if we go with the branching timeline implied by G'raha). Now, she could simply mean her time of the Ancients and the modern time of mortals are converged onto a singular path, but it could be taken either way. So if we negate the time loop paradox (though original FF used this paradox as a key plot point, so not easily discarded), I still see the possibility that the way things originally happened were with Azem present. Which...is still us.

[@donimmortal7692]

I think the purpose of the section where you go around asking about Meteion with Venat is to drive point home how distant Hermes is to everyone else. The fact that we who just arrived at Elphis that day already know about Hermes more than people who he worked with for centuries tell a lot.

[@FireHam]

I am expecting Kyle to make a comment about the echo and why noone are transforming into warriors of light at some point, following 5.3 and what the echo is.