Engaging Tim Keller on Theistic Evolution: Part II

[@lauramckinney9896]

I find myself SO EXHAUSTED with men like these. Tim Keller, Russell Moore, David French, and the like. Then there the JD Greers, Andy Stanleys, and Matt Chandlars. Just bone weary with the lot of them. So thank you to Jon and all these men called to refute them. You've been given an extra dose of patience.

[@conceptualclarity]

We had great leaders in the latter half of the 20th century but they have almost all died off and right now on the national level more of the big names are false teachers than are not false teachers. Let's pray for God to raise up some quality national level leaders.

[@TheJpep2424]

Democrat social justice warriors that use word salad to disguise their liberalism.

[@sierragrey7910]

Well done. I have a graduate degree in science and have conducted research. Came to faith in my 30’s. I accepted evolution as the answers of answers until my conversion. I was converted, which meant that the Bible became my authority, so I was forced to question evolution and look at the world afresh. My first discovery was how fragile and error-prone was my field of health science, and how statistically terrible 80% of the medical articles published. Like all scholastics, science is influenced by society, culture, and above all, money. I was forced to see that “scientism” had replaced reason and the scientific method. It takes generations to change paradigms. I’ve seen in my 40 years of following my profession. Accepted medical treatments have been debunked forcing a huge paradigm shift. Science is not an obstacle to evangelism. Keller cares more about influencing others than preaching the truth. Christianity is the cure for bad science.

[@conceptualclarity]

Long before the Wuhan virus I came to the conclusion that the health establishment, by which I mean the federal government health agencies, the AMA, the big hospital systems, the state medical boards, the big prestige medical journals, the medical schools, big media health journalism, and above all the pharmaceutical industry, was simply incorrigible, a system that lacked real concern for patients and was rather only concerned with self-protection and self-advancement. I think with the immensely corrupt response to the pandemic that this health establishment has become something more appropriate for a communist country than for a supposedly democratic country with humane values.

[@supsoo]

Medical field is symptom management. It cant replicate what God has designed.

[@karlernstbuddenbrock371]

Well put. People like Meyer and Lennox have shown contemporary science up to be deeply flawed.

[@lorainabogado]

Christianity is the cause of bad science.

[@sierragrey7910]

@@lorainabogado Christianity was the foundation of good science. Because the universe was designed by the God of the Bible, we know that the laws of nature do not change and can be reliably studied.

[@jenniferherb5212]

If man evolved at what point did he cease to be animal and become an image bearer? 🤔 Jon your gifted, the way you explain things really helps me to understand and see how dangerous Kellers ideologies are. Keep up the good work

[@adamyoung7999]

I was shocked to find out my best friend who is a Christian believes in evolution, i.e., that humans have a common ancestor with, for example, a strawberry. I actually asked him that exact question to clarify his belief for me. He said yes he believes that. That’s an astute observation- wondering when exactly in the evolutionary process man became an image bearer. I also wonder (assuming the Christian evolutionist’s worldview) when man will evolve to something outside of God’s image. Bound to happen eventually (maybe in millions of years), right?

[@bjn3232]

Most bible scholars argue that the bible teaches a functional view of the Imago Dei or a mix of functional and relational. In either case evolution in no way presents a challenge of all humans being in the image of God.

[@adamyoung7999]

@@bjn3232 assuming an evolutionary process, there was a time when humans were not humans and there will be a time when humans are no longer humans. Can you explain how this isn’t a problem for Christians who believe in evolution and millions/billions of years?

[@nebraskafarmer9015]

I noticed in Keller's book "The Prodigal God", that he rarely used other Scripture to back his positions. I found that to be off putting. His teaching was based almost entirely on his opinion. I don't need the opinion of man, I need God's truth as revealed in Scripture!

[@Richardcontramundum]

8:30 excellent point regarding Keller and his combination or third way. But frankly it's like oil and water, with so many other things creation and materialistic evolution are not compatible. You cannot merge them. And sadly people will compromise like Keller here. And again hasn't helped him? Or has his worldview been corrupted in many other areas? I often go back to the fruit of any particular thing. The fruit of having Church a certain way, or taking a reverent view of worship, or even having females read scripture and preach. There are certain passages that may seem to indicate that it's fine. However at the end of the day are these things lawful and profitable? Has Paul quotes, it might be lawful, but is it profitable? Is it really what God wants us to do? Is he going to bless it? Or will he curse you? Do you have to believe in literal 6 day creation to be a christian? Absolutely not. But that was part of my own testimony and coming to christ. Understanding that God's word could be trusted and godless materialistic evolution was nothing but nonsense. There's no way to take nonsense and shove it into the Bible and pretend like that's what it says.

[@Wood424]

Richard, there is one question I always get around to asking when this subject comes up. Jesus and the apostles speak of Adam and Eve as being actual persons who " from the beginning of creation God made", how does this square with what you believe. The answer to that question speaks volumes about what you think of Jesus, and the salvational message. Of Jesus, his character, of the message, its trustworthiness. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Another factor should be considered by believers, the malevolent entities that rule this world (you know the verses) and the part they play in the affairs of men. I have a sneaking suspicion that it all comes down to anti-supernatural bias, and the Church has been down that road before.

[@kaylar3197]

@TLW, I’m not sure if you’re challenging Richard or agreeing with him?

[@biblicaltheologytoday9528]

Well done Brother.

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

"The motive for escaping Biblical chronology and six-day creationism is the honorable desire to make the faith relevant and credible to its intellectual despisers. Some good men feel that there is no way to reconcile a "literal" interpretation of Genesis with the "certainties of modern science." Those who know the history of science, however, will not be so sure of these "certainties." We gain no intellectual credibility by using dodges that don't work." James B. Jordan

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

@@StevenSmith-1863 Through New Eyes is my favorite book "about" the Bible that isn't the Bible itself.

[@Richardcontramundum]

So so true

[@bjn3232]

I don't know of anyone who rejects young earth creation for such a reason; I know of many however who once they escaped the YEC bubble came to realize that the evidence for common descent is overwhelming.

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

@@bjn3232 The "evidence" is entirely dependent on your starting presuppositions. As a Christian, the theological implications alone of an Old Earth are inconsistent with Scripture and Christ's own teaching. "Evidence" and "facts" don't say anything on their own. They need to be filtered through a worldview.

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

I never accepted the idea of random, unguided mutations and a blind selection process could explain the origin of the variety of all life, however the "first life" came to be. When I became a believer, I was quite surprised how many professing Christians accept such a story

[@Bicyclechris]

If a person like Keller doesn’t believe in 6 day creation and tries to accommodate evolution or a day-age theory, then the Bible is no longer inerrant. Furthermore, if there was evolution over millions of years from a rock to humans, then death (Sin) would come before the fall of man in the garden of Eden, and therefore what God created was not “Good”.

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

@@sammur1977 But the environment creates pressures, not information. The information has to come from a mind. Adaptability is the potential from the existing code

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

@@sammur1977 Right, but that presupposes front-loading of the information into the systems, right? The actual "codes" aren't coming in from physical forces and chemistry

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

@@sammur1977 I can see that effect. But to build new body plans, can't imagine how that would work

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

@@sammur1977 I see that. Fascinating. But what's more fascinating is the large-scale changes that don't seem explainable via protein changes, which is what DNA codes for.

[@Bicyclechris]

I believe that the Bible is a reliable collection of historical books that contain eyewitness accounts of supernatural events written during the lifetimes of other eyewitnesses and these events are fulfillment of specific prophecies. These books are claimed to be not authored by man but inspired by God. It’s a collection that spans over 1,500 years of time, and most of the authors have never met each other, yet these books fit together perfectly.

[@kaylar3197]

This sounds like Voddie Baucham’s answer to “Why do you believe the Bible?” But with a few bits added that I hadn’t hear before. Good stuff.

[@TheJpep2424]

Give credit to Voddie for those statements.

[@Bicyclechris]

@@TheJpep2424 Amen, Voddie is definitely someone I admire and learn from continually, and I learned that from him, amd one of his teaching lessons on the topic. :)

[@lakerunner5085]

Great stuff brother, keep up the great work. I wasn’t aware of you until yesterday. I stumbled across you due to the fact that my pastor holds Tim Keller in high regard, which is what I’m struggling with right now. I’m a six-day creationist. A verse that is helpful not mentioned in your video is Genesis 8:21. If the flood was local then God’s a liar because many people have perished in floods since the Flood.

[@chiefofsinners5272]

Kinsey was a scientist wasn't he? C.S. Lewis has observed that the connection between Science and Witchcraft is the desire for control. Hopefully we'll have that idol toppled soon.

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Kinsey was a pseudo-scientist.

[@chiefofsinners5272]

@@ThomasCranmer1959true, he just wanted control and wasn't grateful to God for His provision of the Uniformity of Nature.

[@brunodelconte]

Worse, a child abuser proved by his "table of 34"@@ThomasCranmer1959

[@sierragrey7910]

In the broad view, Keller is a man of the Enlightenment. He is a rationalist who has raised the intellect of man to a place above the Word. It would be Illuminating to ask him for precise definitions of the biblical and doctrinal words he uses. We assume he gives them the same meaning as the Reformers, but I suspect we would find he doesn’t. Of course, we aren’t smart enough to understand.

[@conceptualclarity]

Yes Keller is somebody who is fond of quoting Michel Foucault as a great thinker to lead us to better understanding, the French leftist philosopher who was an open homosexual who advocated doing away with age of consent laws. And we're supposed to think there wasn't anything untoward behind that.

[@sierragrey7910]

@@conceptualclarity That is helpful to point out. The spring that he is drinking from does not produce good water.

[@orbyfan]

Tim "The Great Nuancer" Keller give precise definitions? Don't hold your breath.

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Keller has more in common with neo-orthodoxy and irrationalism, imo.

[@chrish5791]

Keller, and those like him that glorify intellectualism and so called science above the Word of God, remind me of what the apostle Paul wrote in his first epistle to the Corinthians: “For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-and righteousness and sanctification and redemption- that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD." 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 (NKJV)

[@heartofalegend]

Very helpful Jon. It seems that pastors like Keller feel a need to disprove the world's impression of us as rubes and fools, by abandoning the seemingly simplistic and even archaic practice of faithful exposition of Scripture to the flock and proclamation of the gospel to unbelievers. But isn't Paul clear that, to the unbeliever, our message of the gospel is always going to be foolishness? The minute my message starts to seem reasonable to the unregenerate, I best find a new profession!

[@kaylar3197]

From goo to you by way of the zoo! I heard that one from Frank Pereti, although I don’t know if he coined it.

[@Richardcontramundum]

17:00 Keller should actually do his work and decipher and dissect operational science which is the science that gives us computers, medicine, rocket engines, and all sorts of other things we use as actual science, and historical science or speculative science about the past. No one was there except god. You see dead things buried in rock layers all over the earth, or you see far off distant stars, looking at them and studying them in the present doesn't tell you anything about how they got there or what's going on or anything else. You can only map them at least the stars and say that there's some sort of design. You can only see the dead things buried in rock layers that they were dead. You don't know where they actually lived you don't know many many things about them. Including when they lived. But this is a classic bait and switch to squish both of these sciences as it were both operational and historical into one thing called science. Which really creates a new religion that I call scientism

[@teafortwo9307]

Did we get a working definition of macro vs micro evolution? Macro would be from one species to the next? Micro would be the gradual slow mutations or adaptations that bodies make in response to environmental influences? Is that correct?

[@kaylar3197]

That is how I have always understood the terms, but, in the part on on this chapter, Keller used micro to mean the [hypothetical] material process and macro to mean a worldview based on it.

[@inhisimage]

Jon you may want to read Calvin Smith's articles on the Answers in Genesis website. Biologos is a heretical organization. He makes that very clear. I'd be glad to provide links if you'd like

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

Thank you! Yes, I believe I skimmed that.

[@Bicyclechris]

Every modern society has references back to a flood event, albeit viewed through their own cultural lens. China specifically mentions a flood event and it traces back closely to the time of Noah and the flood event documented in the Bible. Again, if Keller denies this he is once again denying the inerrancy of scripture.

[@marcyoverby3817]

I think that is the idea.

[@conceptualclarity]

I remember seeing the Noll book be promoted in Christian Book Distributors for ages and I was really disappointed that nobody in evangelicalism wrote a book entitled "The Scandal of the Evangelical Left Mind" or "The Scandal of Mark Noll's Mind". Too many nice guys ☹️

[@johntobey1558]

Read, "no place for truth" or whatever happened to EVANGELICAL THEOLOGY" BY David F.Wells who taught Dr.Keller I'm the late 1970's at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (Boston, Massachusetts)

[@johntobey1558]

People have critiqued it in Atlamtoc monthly

[@conceptualclarity]

@@johntobey1558 did Wells respond to Mark Noll?

[@chrish5791]

Evangelists of years gone by realized that the biggest stumbling block for people coming to Christ was their acceptance of the fact that they were sinners before a holy God entirely deserving of their damnation to Hell. Most that bring up the creation/evolution debate as their reason for their unbelief in the Bible are using it as an excuse not to be confronted with their sin nature which they cling to.

[@danbrown586]

Your example of "you can bow to Mecca when you pray" is a good one, because it's exactly the kind of sneakiness Keller et al. use. It's true, as far as it goes--Christianity has no teaching regarding the direction you face while praying, and little enough about posture. So, if I happen to be facing in the direction of Mecca when I pray, there's nothing at all wrong with that, whether I'm bowing, kneeling, sitting, or in any other posture. But if I'm making a point of facing Mecca, that's an obvious problem.

[@micahlantz905]

Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days. - Genesis 7:17-24 Clearly God made it clear that it wasn't a "local flood"

[@orbyfan]

As one Bible-believing critic observed, if it was just a local flood then it must have been the only egg-shaped flood in history, because the tops of the mountains were covered.

[@chrish5791]

God gave Noah over a hundred years of notice before the flood occurred. If it had been a “local flood” Noah and his family could’ve walked to ANYWHERE in the world in those hundred years and just avoided the flood. And as you say the statement in the Bible that the water prevailed by 15 cubits is awfully hard to accomplish restraining that water to within a local flood. Those who try to force theistic evolution into Genesis chapter 1 need it to be a local flood or otherwise all the fossils and sentiment deposits can’t be from millions of years. Thus their corruption of God’s Word, that provides us with His history of creation, gets ever more convoluted and heretical.

[@lydiabouts8572]

Why is it so hard for people (who claim to be the Lord's) to believe the Bible?

[@Wood424]

I think they want to be accepted.

[@nathanphillipsgo]

Fear of man vs fear of God.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

They want to fit in with other deceived ppl and don't want to be thought of as uneducated or an intellectual heretic. The same kind of pressure exists within professing Christianity where ppl are pressured into going along with the provably false doctrines of Catholicism and Protestantism because they don't to stick out and risk being called a cult member. The pressure to fit in is extremely powerful in this world.

[@sovereigngrace9723]

​@@sammur1977 that's a faulty hermeneutic. Just because the imagery is borrowed by Paul to describe the union between a man and a woman does not mean the imagery didn't actually happen. Jesus borrowed imagery from Jonah, was this also not historical?

[@chrish5791]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779, that same desire to be accepted by so called “academic elites” is what has turned most Christian seminaries into theological cemeteries. They love the praise of man rather than the praise of God.

[@ArtbyAP]

So, as I understand your viewpoint is that being a young earth creationist is essential for salvation?

[@alisonrittener5606]

Thank you for speaking truth🙏

[@oneagleswings8456]

Another thing thats hard on localized flood theory God gave the rainbow as a sign that he would never do that again, does that make God a liar? Because disastrous floods have happened since

[@danielwarton5343]

Funny you said about Ted talks. I sent my wife the Hell talk by Keller and she said those exact words 😂

[@ChrisHolman]

Science reveals the hand of God

[@jessicablake8791]

I was saved obviously and ultimately by the Gospel of Jesus Christ but evolution was a big sticker point for me. I believed I was a sinner and vound for he'll but did not believe God created the world. Someone explained a version of what Keller and people like John Lennox believe (see his book "The Seven Days the Divide the World") this helped in thr process of believing that God truly did create the world. Now...I no longer hold that view I can't I agree with you that it is unbiblical. It took years and part of it was feeling embarrassed by a creation view but I now cannot believe anything else, I think there is Scriptural authority and evidence scientifically to stand upon a literal 6 day creation

[@johntobey1558]

What are William Schweitzer's Theological amd scientific credentials. Why did the editor include his critique, who is he? HAS HE EVER ATTENDED Redeemer Presbyterian Church? Who is he, why should we listen to him, what types of fundamentalist biased does he espouse?

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

A fundamentalist is someone who strictly follows the basic teachings of a religion. What's wrong with that. Pagans and evolutionist athiests are more fundamentalist

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

Anything that claims itself as objective truth is fundamentalist. You want to first please society

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

Is Tim Keller a scientist. You don't care about this because he tells things that soothe your ears

[@johntobey1558]

@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 you don't know me. Nor do you have any idea what soothes my ears. Have you ever attended Redeemer Presbyterian church. He does not just sooth ears, he convicts hearts of sin.

[@TheUndoneOrchestra]

Per the finches...that's why real science ALWAYS has to be open to change with future data as one can never know if they've arrived at premature conclusion unlike God who always speaks reality.

[@orbyfan]

Evangellyfish are obsessed with building bridges, whether in thought or in action, but you won't find scriptural warrant for that. God always calls His people to build walls of separation (e.g., Romans 12:2, Ephesians 4:17).

[@conceptualclarity]

Don't you get tired of all of the "dialogues" with the proponents of error and sin? What inevitably happens is that the self-appointed representatives of evangelicalism move towards the proponents of error and sin and the latter do not move at all.

[@PizzaDisguise]

Hey y’all, I’m reading John Sailhamer’s book “Genesis Unbound.” The premise is that God created the entire universe in verse 1 and that the six day creation account is actually describing God’s preparation of the Promised Land for humans. Very intriguing. He has also written a treatise that the Pentateuch is actually one large work and should be read that way. “Pentateuch as Narrative,” by J. Sailhamer.

[@daveolson722]

I would not be a Christian if I did not believe that Genesis 1 was not History . Because if Genesis 1 is not TRUE then the rest of the BIBLE is not true. As for those who are Christian and believe Genesis 1 is poetic etc, that's not my concern, that's God's concern, just as my theological differences I may have with other Christians.

[@PizzaDisguise]

“Genesis Unbound” by John Sailhamer. Premise is that God made the heavens and earth in verse 1. The six days is God making/preparing the Promised Land for humanity. Very interesting read so far. It still leaves man as a special creation and the six-day week as literal days. He is against a day-age interpretation.

[@JonathanGrandt]

For most of us the Bible serves as an essential foundation for our faith while for Keller it is an obstacle for his.

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Theism and materialism are contradictory.

[@jessewallace12able]

When you understand both evolutionary theory, and are a Christian, it’s not necessary to explain one with or against the other.

[@thebondmenmusic]

What men like Keller fail to understand is that man's obstacle in his reconciliation with God is his inability to come to God on his own. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. Remember the disciples astonishment that the gentiles too had been granted repentance. The ability to repent and be saved is an event not fully understood by our finite minds but one thing for certain is that all the glory for our salvation goes to God and it begins with repentance. If someone cannot repent then Keller's notion that a 6 day creation young earth model is a stumbling block for the unbeliever betrays his faulty theology. In short Keller is ashamed of the gospel. When we “walk in the counsel of the ungodly, stand in the path of sinners, and sit in the seat of scoffers” (Psalm 1:1), we are being ashamed of the gospel. He does not even believe in the flood! How can we believe this man is led by the Spirit when he proclaims that openly. I openly proclaim the truths clearly laid out in God's word including His miraculous creation week that occured not so long ago. My extensive education and credentials do not alter my faith in His word. As others have said in the comments section already, His word informs us that the unsaved perceive spiritual truth as foolishness. Paul proclaimed that he did not come with eloquent words but simply preached Christ crucified. An examination of Keller during the Martin Bashir interview will demonstrate Keller's mastery of the subtle art of prevarication. Yes, he masquerades as a shepherd who wears sheeps clothing but inside is a ravenous wolf. Point out his shortcomings to those leaders who hold him in such high esteem. His teachings are the enemy of the gospel.

[@clay8546]

Or some people have a functional brain and understand we can prove the earth is not young

[@lorainabogado]

Keep going with this science denialism. You are doing more to keep young people out of churches than any atheist ever could. Well done.

[@banemaler]

Denial of God is a denial of science itself. God is in control, no man can stop Him, not even a popular podcaster on YT.

[@jefffloyd9671]

@@banemaler god is in control? So he's the one who created a virus that killed millions. He's the one starving children to death every minute of every day. He's responsible for making people gay. He's in control, so he made Biden president. Or just maybe... Like other bronze age gods he is a creation of men to explain things they didn't understand at the time.

[@banemaler]

@@jefffloyd9671 He's in control! You are right. Man makes this life Hell when they reject his perfect law.

[@jefffloyd9671]

@@banemaler then we are in control. He could have made us anyway he liked, and should have had the forethought of our rebellion or he's not omnipotent. He admits to regretting making man at all... only to wipe the slate clean. If you're in control and know all choices that will be made you can account for those outcomes. God's will can't be changed by the actions of men on a daily bases and still leave him in control.

[@banemaler]

@@jefffloyd9671 Why do you assume that because evil exist, that this would be an indication that there was a deviation from the plan. No one has said that if God is in control evil would not exist. God can both be in control and his plan for humanity could be operating according to his sovereignty. My will and choices cannot overcome the will of yes, an all powerful and omnipotent God. Your self righteousness about his character over yours does not diminish the fact that He is still God and you are not.