Enlightenment, DP/DR & Falling Into the Pit of the Void ~ Shinzen Young

Shinzen talks about the empowering facets of enlightenment and compares this to "enlightenments evil twin" DP/DR. He talks about the rare occasions that he's encountered a meditator moving in the direction of DP/DR and the strategy he used to "cure" it using mindfulness methods.
Filmed in Nov. 2009 at Mt. Carmel Spiritual Centre in Niagara Falls.
00:06 - Shinzen introduces DP/DR, or Depersonalization/Derealization disorder, enlightenment's evil twin.
00:34 - Fulfilling and empowering aspects of emptiness and no-thingness of self and world as the result of successful meditation.
02:09 - The opposite effect of emptiness and nothingness on a person who has DP/DR.
03:23 - An opportunity to look at what enlightenment is in a new and deeper way.
03:53 - "Very, very occasionally, it happens that people who are doing a meditative practice, their experience moves in the direction of DP/DR."
04:42 - "Please listen carefully. In my entire career of teaching... I have encountered this in students only a few times. In the few times I've encountered it, with maybe one or two exceptions... through giving the right direction, it ended up eventually becoming the empowering and fulfilling experience."
05:22 - The chances of this happening to you in meditation if you have a senior competent guide that has dealt with this problem successfully are very remote.
06:20 - The general population that develops DP/DR are not meditators.
07:25 - Shinzen wonders if the strategies he uses for meditators might work on the non-meditating people with DP/DR.
07:59 - Falling into the Pit of the Void.
08:19 - Two things Shinzen does that can help.
1. "If they are freaking out because of the emptiness then there is something that's not empty. What's not empty is the freak-out. So I have them see that the freak-out is itself empty. That negates the negative.
2. Systematically develop the positive. Use your concentration skills to do a lot of creating positive feel, image, and talk... "Now you have nothing. That nothing is the ideal place to construct a completely new self. You can still, at will, create positive feel, image, and talk and now like a physical therapist would exercise atrophied muscles and in a systematic way rebuild that person's ability to move, so I push them, very much like a PT, to develop positive feel, image, and talk over and over again until they literally build a new and indeed better self.""
See also:
The Dark Night by St. John of the Cross (recited in Spanish & English) ~ Shinzen Young
• The Dark Night by St. ...
Noche Oscura - (The Dark Night) by St. John of the Cross (Spanish Only) ~ Shinzen Young
• Noche Oscura - (The Da...
Classic "Dark Night" or Clinical Issues? ~ Shinzen Young
• Classic "Dark Night" o...
Advanced FAQs: Regarding Emptiness ~ Shinzen Young
• Advanced FAQs: Regardi...
Experiences of the Dissolution (Bhanga) Process ~ Shinzen Young Interactive - 1 of 3
• Experiences of the Dis...
Experiences of the Dissolution (Bhanga) Process ~ Shinzen Young Interactive - 2 of 3
• Experiences of the Dis...
Experiences of the Dissolution (Bhanga) Process ~ Shinzen Young Interactive - 3 of 3
• Experiences of the Dis...
Dissolution (Bhanga), and T.S. Eliot ~ Shinzen Young
• Dissolution (Bhanga), ...
Working Through the Primal Feel Strata ~ Shinzen Young
• Working Through the Pr...
Don't Know Mind: Not Needing to Have Answers & the Wisdom Function ~ Shinzen Young
• Don't Know Mind: Not N...
Also check out the more recent:
Enlightenment's Evil Twin, Shinzen Young Interviewed by Michael Taft
/ dy-007-enlightenments-...

[@Fishyboy14]

As someone whom has suffered through this, know that this makes you a special person. This is something people only experience who perceive life in a profound way. It’s an incredible journey. While it’s difficult to endure if you don’t understand it, when you come out of it you will understand why you endured it. For me above all God helped me understand. The experience taught me patience and resilience, it taught me to see life in the present and to appreciate beauty in moment. For anyone that is experiencing this just know that the old you is gone, and the beautiful new you is just beginning to grow. Praying for you all!

[@COTICHUK]

hey. How we can connect to talk? could you please send an email to me, this is my email address: [e-mail]

[@rickstarz]

Did you use any particular techniques to come out of it?

[@arsenmalaj8757]

I wish I had the same resolve as you. I'm becoming worse each day that passes

[@revoksfn7354]

I hope so ....

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Fishyboy how. r u now

[@BrotherDominick1]

The difference between Enlightenment & DP/DR is that in the former, the ego has been through all of what life has to offer and is done with it all, ready to return to the void and welcoming it. In the latter, the void is experienced unexpectedly and the ego mind was not ready for it and still clings to the personal mode of operating, as a result the mind labels it as dp/dr in a negative light, when in reality the void is neutral

[@louieknight8786]

Yoooo, thank you so so much for this man, literally what happened to me a few weeks ago

[@tsbinlv]

I agree. That is an excellent summation.

[@jeffrey3498]

@@tsbinlv Who is “I”?

[@RickNuthman]

Yes, and it manifests as fear. The void is the most terrifying thing possible to the ego. Unfortunately, if seen well enough the void is impossible to unsee. So one is stuck being aware that this horror is real for as long as the ego won't let go.

[@AnnHelle]

Thanks, this is helpful. I've been through both - they lasted several minutes and 1.5 years respectively. In my experience, the DPDR was largely pathological, exacerbated by life stressors, wrong understanding, and an incompetent teacher (me, lol). Stopped meditation complete and was treated by a psychologist and Somatic Experiencing work. The 'real thing' happened 1.5 years later, after the deaths of two close family members. On hindsight, my first experience propelled me toward a deeper understanding of death, existence and the mind. Without which, i might never have experienced the second. Still a net gain overall, I suppose.

[@WisdomOfInsecurity]

What i realized is, the Problem with dp/dr is, that when you get the answer to your questions (Enlightment), some, like me, try to question these answers even further. And this leads to the schizophrenic dp/dr like state because when you question your reality in the present, you don't have any comparisation if everything is as it used to. You get in these downward spirals of trying to logical integrate your seen wisdom to your human consciousness in your present, and this is NOT possible. It's like trying to imagine what it is to be dead, we're just not capable of understanding (with our human consciousness) what it is. We don't know what it feels like, but it will come soon enough. We don't have to understand it to experience it. You can't accept that everything is like before except that your questions got answered. When you hit rock bottom, nothing leads deeper. If you want to get deeper, you get only confused by your self. Meditation helped me to get rid of it, better said of my wrong thought pattern. I realized, that i cannot gather everything (maybe anything) with my human consciousness and it doesn't change anything of my reality if life happens to me or i make it happen. It's the same! Only your judgment of your perception is what doesn't function as it should. You're asking to many questions where it is not possible to get an logical answer to. Meditation helped me to get in line with my "tao" and just flow with myself. Cheers to everybody who will be blessed as soon as you realize by the bone what i am talking about

[@infectedmushroom1419]

Wow just wow 🙏🏻🔥 Helped me a lot

[@Andre-rc3qg]

Are you saying you believe in a solipsistic reality?

[@infectedmushroom1419]

It’s okay to ask questions. The only thing we really know is that we don’t know

[@schonlingg.wunderbar2985]

That was really helpful and I feel stupid now, for needing somebody else to tell me that I am there and can't go deeper.

[@anthonyestrada9037]

The thing about dpdr is it comes with an irrational fear of slipping into psychosis. Ive had it for 9 years and got over that fear a long long time ago. But I recently started reading into meditation and I found that, when I meditate I get to a state where I feel like I'm slipping, I get scared, and immediately have to snap out of it. Is this normal? Does anyone else have this? If so, you just push through it? Thank you

[@Barnikel1]

I had this for two years, including panic attacks, anxiety and feelings of hopelessness. Eventually I.surrendered to the emptyness (this was more of a letting go or 'relaxing into it') - then I had numerous mystical experiences, insights and revelations, and an experience of love and bliss that doesn't compare to.any human emotion. DP/DR and spiritual awakening are directly related in my experience, the former being what is sometimes referred to as the "dark night of the soul".

[@killik0r]

i have dp/dr and panic attacks for 3 years now but its almost gone by now. my cure for it was self enquiry which made me realize that its not the emptiness symptome but the fear-thought itself that is the problem. nowadays when a DR is coming it feels like no big deal because in the end it cant do anything to you.

[@jine7123]

Hi, thanks for writing this... So, I have been in dp/dr every day for the past year (due to having been wrongly put on antipsychotics for mild insomnia), and I was wondering... Is it just a thought problem, or is it actually a nuero-physiological problem in the brain..? No matter how I try to change my thinking, I can't seem to get re-integrated....

[@iwoherka829]

@@jine7123 Both. I had DPDR for about a year after a period of severe stress and depression. DPDR is something your brain is doing to protect you when it thinks you're in danger. In other words, it's a trauma coping mechanism. It's completely normal, there is nothing wrong with your brain. You can't win with DPDR with thinking because it's not about thoughts. It's about your emotions - fear and anxiety. I would suggest looking up The Anxiety Ninja on KZbin and starting from there.

[@arlinbeqaraj2445]

@@iwoherka829 I had episode of DP after meditating and now sometimes i pause and i question if i am real and this creates anxiaty. How did you begun your healing journey? Was it all about managing anxiaty? But didn't you feel as though your anxiaty was not yours when you had DP?

[@Jen.K]

@@jine7123 It can take a long time, especially if there has been toxic neurological damage caused by psychiatric drugs. But hang in there, you will recover over time. I used to work with people who had been damaged by psyche drugs, everyone gets better, but it can sometimes take a lot longer than you would expect. Maintaining a healthy lifestyle, avoiding all drugs and eating clean can support recovery. Stay away from processed foods, alcohol, caffeine and sugar, avoid stress as much as possible. Take good care of yourself and you will recover over time.

[@franciscomendiola9076]

All you need is love

[@ChronoWarrior1996]

In meditation you empty your mind, with DP/DR your mind empties you.

[@kagitsune]

Damn, that's... Actually a pretty good summary. Unfortunately I am one of the many for whom meditation seems to bring even closer to the edge of the Pit. Right now I'm just living each day dancing around it. 🙃

[@user-rz1vc3in1s]

:D

[@kanichiwoh]

Does anyone else ever get the feeling that because you have experienced these feelings and You have seen these things, that You will never be cured because You can't imagine unseeing these things?

[@DarkAngelEU]

It's not about unseeing things, it's about accepting them and understanding that it is in the past and therefor not able to control you. There is nothing that is permanent, there is only constant impermanence. A constant now. And now, in this moment, you are able to control yourself. This is what you need to learn, that in every moment you experience you are able to choose for yourself in every possible manner how you are experiencing it. Let go of the past because the only question it raises is "why" while the question you could be asking is "how". "Why did this happen to me?" and "Why can't I let go?" turns into "How did it happen?" and "What is there to gain?", you will find another perspective that is not revolving around the self and might provide you with answers that are not accessible if you were stuck in your little self. And eventually, when the circle comes around, it will lead back to you. And what you will find is not you, it's different. Perhaps it's more confident than you, perhaps it's something you might consider to be depressing, perhaps it's a stranger that feels familiar. This is not you, it's the image of yourself. What you do with it is for you to decide but you must realize that the person looking at this image is YOU. And who ARE you?

[@delzzan12rodpamo61]

kanichiwoh I felt that mostly through all the stage , It is the lowest frequency and vibration of consciousness in my opinion , so is literally the hell.

[@mortar321]

DId you get out of it? If so, how?

[@gardensofthegods]

kanichowah these things what do you mean could you be more specific ? you mean like the spiritual heart attack and being crushed by a great weight on your chest or you mean being able to see through eyelids that were closed or you mean seeing the diamonds in the sky, or seeing suds all around the edge of your body as your body is dissolving...

[@squamish4244]

I was like that. It never really went away, but it stopped bothering me after a lot of work.

[@zoolakid]

DP/DR isn't some sort of weird enlightenment... It's just a side-effect of anxiety where your perception of the world becomes "delayed" and that's because your mind tells you to be ready to flee from the situation at any moment. I overcame it once when i was younger completely and then it came back some time ago after I had a bad experience with weed. But it's really just caused by stress, some traumatic experience or disease which causes chemical imbalance.

[@Brandon-wo1qd]

So what did you do cuz this shits been with me 10 years lol, feel like I started life all over agon

[@samantharivera6988]

@@Brandon-wo1qd I took anti psychotics and antidepressants idk which ones worked but I am not experiencing it anymore

[@funckmasta]

It’s not a „chemical imbalance“. There is zero evidence for that claim. However, you‘re right that it is closely linked to anxiety. I also agree with you that it isn’t helpful for patients to frame DPDR as some kind of spiritual awakening. In my view, it has nothing to do with enlightenment. People may start asking themselves philosophical questions because their world appears strange and unreal, but that’s the only „spiritual“ thing about it.

[@nickknowles8402]

People do not realize the horror that can be created by this disorder. It's worst mental disorder you can imagine, be careful everyone.

[@starrychloe]

+Nick Knowles I don't know. Sounds fun. Has to be better than depression.

[@squamish4244]

+starrychloe The terror it causes is extraordinary and difficult to communicate. Often depression can come on afterwards because you despair of ever finding a way out. So it is difficult to say one is 'worse'. That is not to diminish how awful depression can be.

[@brettmiller5443]

+valinor I would like to discuss this with you. Send me email at my yahoo address. I gave it to you in a google pm.

[@squamish4244]

Brett Miller I sent one to your gmail address as you asked before.

[@brettmiller5443]

valinor Ok, I'll check that address again...last time I checked I didn't see it, but it was a couple of days ago.

[@squamish4244]

I developed DP after a horrifying drug trip six years ago. Shinzen is absolutely right about DP/DR and emptiness. If you are panicking or depressed and have a sense of utter meaninglessness then there is something that's not empty. I have found meditation to be very helpful in dealing with these feelings and seeing their illusory nature. Unfortunately I developed an anti-anxiety drug addiction early on that made recovery much more difficult. Now that I am clean I hope the process can accelerate.

[@crystlefae1686]

I first saw this video a few years ago and it has helped me immensely. I struggled with DPDR and PTSD for about seven years. Watching the video gave me a new perspective on DPDR and encouragement to stay positive. So along with guided meditation, mindfulness meditation and yoga, I have been able to heal from a persistent state of DPDR. It didn't happen instantly, but over the course of some months, little by little, results began showing, feeling more connected and grounded and developing self confidence. As having the condition still means experiencing episodes of DPDR from time to time, my new attitude means that it doesn't frighten me or freak me out to the extent that it creates a negative feedback loop, where more anxiety triggers more DPDR.

[@kagitsune]

Thank you for shining a light on this path. I am starting from where you were when you first saw this video. Now, I need an experienced guide...

[@danibonilla1]

Really insightful comments; I had suffered from DP/DR and I totally understand that could be felt as an Enlightenment experience. But I also think that the source of the disorder comes from a different situation, I think it comes from the negation or lack of acceptance of the self, since they are unable to accept themselves and the present moment: therefore the DP/DR is a subconscious escape from the mind but still operating under the configuration of the ego since the subject is not mindful of it. I also think that the feeling of lack of connection and nothingness may be more as the result of the negation of one self and their own senses since the heart and the mind are blocked. Usually the people who have or get DP/DR they have it after an stressful situation where they are not able to accept oneself or from drug use that can affect the consciousness. And usually the person have had a form of traumatic childhood where the children was emotionally neglected and they questioned their reality making them confused and in conflict with themselves. But I have to say, that it's possible to overcome DP/DR, by being present in the moment, mindfulness and meditation practices as well as reintegrating the feelings and emotions that had been rejected and coming from a place of love, acceptance and surrender.

[@eamaples]

Really wonderful insight. Thank you for sharing.

[@Jen.K]

Great comment, I love your encouragement and suggestions, totally agree

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Dani hhow r u now

[@danibonilla1]

@@sangeetalambh6389 better, but not totally recovered

[@sangeetalambh6389]

@@danibonilla1 u quit benzos or sssri please ans

[@FriedEggSarnie]

Mine came about after an intense panic attack caused by an intense existential crisis. Life hasn't been the same since. You do a great job of explaining it in this video. Since it started I've wondered whether it was some sort of awakening. But it doesn't feel freeing or calming. As you say, it's the evil twin. Great analogy.

[@imbored4658]

I've had this feeling since I was very young. Everything feels fake, unreal, plastic even. It's like I'm watching the world around me, not living it. And it flares on occasion, putting me in a state where everything is overpowering. Movement feels "too fast" and every sound is "too loud". Even my thoughts become very loud. Like I'm yelling. And light becomes "too bright". I used to make weekly trips to Walmart with my mother and I remember every single time I would be walking and all of the sudden I would, as I refered to it then, "space out". I would literally have to sit down because I was overwhelmed with what was happening, and just watch everything unfolding around me. It's like I'm simply an onlooker of the world, a television. That still happens. Sometimes I question if this is even real.

[@DarkAngelEU]

I have this feeling of plastic too and the only thing I can say to you is "come on baby, light my fire" ;)

[@Yutezu]

Any Rebel No, thats not what it is.

[@Yutezu]

Its like you lost the immersion of this reality beeing real.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

I m bored how r u now

[@empressiv3337]

.

[@SidMason7]

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

[@RendiMento]

I had a random onset of this in March 2019. It is still with me every day and leads me into a shaking panic every time it escalates to a certain point (multiple times per day). This is the worst feeling in the world, and after 2 years I know exactly what it is. Even though I know what it is through CBT and other therapy, it is still there. The only times I am feeling normal is when I am sleeping or extremely intoxicated from alcohol. The only positive thing from having this disorder is that it never has lead to a state of psychosis. I would never wish this life on my worst enemy, it is truly a living hell and I live on hoping one day I can get back to reality.

[@maydesbiens2361]

I empathy with your situation a lot. I agree with you that it is the worst feeling ever. I am going through something similar myself. I just wanna share hope and light with you, as one day it WILL get better. Do not give up!! You mentioned CBT therapy, so I am guessing that you already use grounding technics? It takes sometimes a long time to heal from DP/DR, but basically we need to make our brains make new ''paths/connections'' toward healthier thoughts and responses. The fear of DR/DR cause panic, and that itself make the DP/DR cycle restart... It is a process and it is so tiring I know... but you will get there!! And we will be stronger than ever after. Don't give up!!!!

[@petya7105]

have you guys tried modafinil + an ssri (you'd need them prescribed.) i've seen this protocol praised as a cure for dp/dr on forums.

[@SolarJakee]

How are you doing now out of curiosity?

[@kagitsune]

I am sorry, stranger. I am going through something similar and looking for answers. Most times I meditate and really try to "feel" my soul-self, I can really see myself on the edge of the Pit. My conscious mind instinctually backs away. I am not in a financial or community situation where someone can care for me if I really do fall over the brink, so I stay back as much as I can.

[@RendiMento]

@@SolarJakee now on meds for about a year, been alcohol free for a year and a half. clorazepate 7.5mg daily and 25mg of lexapro daily. Symptoms have maybe gone down about 30% overall, at first was 70% but gradually medication became less and less effective. Still dealing with the derealization every day.

[@hermansohier7643]

Falling into the pit of the void happend to 'me' a few years ago and it was pure horror. A few months later i saw an intervieuw with a teacher named Adyashanti and he said that the horror was due to the fact that the mind slipped into the void .By mind he ment the imaginairy self.Within 3 seconds i was thinking of suicide but there was no one left to kill.This was in a periode of intense meditation on nothingness exept that the event didn't took place during a meditation.I think it was Nietchze who said'If you stare into nottingness,this notthingness has the nasty habbit of staring back'.That moment was at the same time a surrender of the mind,a mind that saw that he would never understand this absolute nothing .

[@laurenfrodente4160]

I started experiencing symptoms of DP/DR after increasing my meditation practice (a couple hours everyday) over a year ago. It was terrifying and I thought I was going crazy. I had the worst insomnia and strange physical issues on top of that. While that was happening, I started to get so much anxiety every time I would meditate that I eventually had to quit. I felt so alone at this time. I started meditating to cure my anxiety but instead it had made it worse. I thought I was the only person who had a negative reaction to something as harmless (or so I thought) as meditation. I wish I had known about this video back then. Now, after a year and half from that experience, I finally feel like I'm ready to slowly get back into meditation.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Lauren F how r u now

[@Eleanor1358]

What kind of physical symptoms

[@mango7620]

I have the same thing, I got it from meditation and I feel lost

[@kagitsune]

Shenzen here says it is rare from meditation, and yet dozens of us have found this video. 🤔 Like he says, the problem might be the individualization of meditation practice in the West.

[@UrSturdyWing]

I just stumbled across this video by accident but it sounds a lot like what I induced a couple of years ago from intense periods of meditation over a 2 month period. It's only fitting that Shinzen Young was actually the person that made me start my spiritual journey years ago, when listening to his audiobook. My experience during that time was like a strange hybrid of these two sides of enlightenment. On the one side it was peaceful, simple, blissful, thusness, a deep connection with nature - true joy. On the other hand I felt that the world was going too fast, and my mind could not keep up with other people. Its an utter cliche but I felt that nobody was on the same wavelength, that I couldn't connect with people because it was like they were functioning a mile a minute while I was almost in a different time space. Another weird side effect was that I could see right through peoples intentions, noticing every little micro-expression in their faces. Then, and to this day, I wasn't sure whether that side effect was reality or a delusion stemming from lack of social contact. In addition I became like a sponge to everybody's emotions - pain, anxiety, happiness. Because of this it became difficult to talk to people at points due to the huge amounts of stimulus being thrown at me at the same time. Due to myself being very peaceful at the time it never really made me unhappy, but definitely showed I can't go too far out without guidance. I can really sympathise with those who have it so much worse, but if I can offer a few words of advice that has helped me deal with bouts of this over the years (and now): 1) Sleep. ESSENTIAL for general wellbeing. Same bed time and wakeup every day. 2) Routine. This will provide an infrastructure to build a form of homeostasis (normality). 3) Human contact, talking. One of the easiest ways to feel real is to talk about it. 4) Diet. Do not skip meals, eat a healthy balanced diet consisting of mainly whole foods.

[@squamish4244]

I am using neurofeedback to treat my mental disorders, sleep disorder, benzo dependency and physical pain. It's quite powerful. I could never accomplish on my own what it is helping me do. I also have a brainwave entrainment device that helps me to meditate for hours through great discomfort (kundalini syndrome). Neuroscience is advancing quickly and thank god, because I would never get anywhere on my own.

[@sheena1503]

I did Vipassana in Dec and it feels like you are describing my current situation word by word.

[@JohnDoe-sk6wy]

In the past, when I meditated, I used to ignore everything else in me and around me focusing exclusively on my breathing. On other occasions, when I focused on observing my thoughts, I did so as if "I" was a separate entity observing the thoughts. I realized later that such approach was the catalyst to an effect of derealization and depersonalizations. Now, I try to observe everything (to the extent of my ability) with the mindset that "I" and everything else in me is one entity that is becoming aware of itself and the deeper layers in it.

[@squamish4244]

The way you meditated by observing your thoughts is a very legit practice and generally does not lead to DP/DR. I do it all the time, and it helps a lot, but I've already been through DP lol. If you're observing everything, I would drop the mindset that "I" am becoming aware, because there is no I.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

John Doe how r u now

[@JohnDoe-sk6wy]

@@sangeetalambh6389 I’m doing better since I dropped the belief that “I” was separate from the thoughts and everything else. Now I simply accept the mechanical construct of this existence (including the mind and its activities) as it is without trying to indoctrinate myself with a specific belief about it. In return, this approach helps me focus exclusively on observing the self and inner activities with impartiality and neutrality. This is a more peaceful place than before.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

@@JohnDoe-sk6wy did u quit benzos or ssri u feel dp dr

[@JohnDoe-sk6wy]

@@sangeetalambh6389 Didn’t understand what you’re asking. Sorry

[@DreamscapeVision]

I myself, suffered from Derealization. However, I, myself, have learned a lot from it, and eventually moved on from it. It was probably the most enlightening experience of my life. It is frightening as can be, but you have to understand it is an experience that is highly worth it. Once you give into it, you realize the experience itself is completely powerless on you.

[@ghostypeart]

I’m experiencing depersonalization right at this moment I have had it for probably 10 years now. nothing feels real... I can see myself in other peoples eyes. I’m experiencing the moment as a happening not feeling like I’m Myself but I feel like I’m some endless pattern. Like I can peak behind the curtain of reality.. it’s very strange. Strange enough I know we are all one thing but when I experience it’s so intense it’s terrifying.

[@EmilyPorter]

I think dp/dr is the same whether it is caused by drugs, meditation, spontaneously, trauma, panic attack, florescent lighting, or any cause. It is the nervous system response to overwhelm, and yes the nervous system response to spiritual insight/awakening can be overwhelm and shock. And old stuff old pre-verbal terror can bubble up when meditating or if one's light quotient is suddenly increased and cause overwhelm. And dissociation due to stress can lead one further into spiritual awakening because the nervous system glitch causes one to realize they may not be who/what they think they are. Its sort of like a pre-near-death experience. I hope most people know by 2020 he's wrong that people suffer for a lifetime. Most people come out of DPDR and certainly with the right help the chance and timeline is exponentially increased. People recover by a)it just goes away slowly, b)distraction with challenging real life tasks and interactions such as working as a bartender c)sometimes drugs help, usually antidepressants d)getting psychological help with developmental trauma such as somatic experiencing work e)following the instructions/courses from one of the many dp/dr coaches you can find now on youtube like harris harrington or jordan hargrave or therapists you can now find online that specialize in dpdr or non-dual awakening f)getting help from an energy healer who specializes in ascension symptoms/awakening/kundalini awakening g)God, surrender h) sitting with the sensations (fear, numbness). As Jordan Peterson quotes: "it's within your existential terror that the wisdom to cope will be found". There are other random ways too people have reported, adjustment of the cranial nerves, magnesium, quitting gluten...

[@jokicback2backmvp877]

Thank you Emily this gives me hope

[@sarahjrurka]

This is such an awesome Synopsis thank you!

[@RickNuthman]

I've been suffering from DP/DR since I was 14 (now 44) and he hits the nail right on the head with the way that I experience reality. I've been practicing Vipassana for about 10 years now (several retreats, and 1000s of hours at home). I would LOVE to be Shinzen's guinea pig. I don't know if it's possible for me to switch this over to proper awakening. If this is impossible, then it would make sense why I can't seem to get any fruitions/paths. I constantly cycle through the dark night and hit EQ from time to time, but never get any further. I am surprised when I read the comments on here by people who had DPDR and it went away after a few months or years. Mine has never gone away; not even for a second after decades. There is just this knower, looking back at this body doing things in a world that is an exact copy of itself, but with no substance or flavor. There is always a feeling of fear and creepiness; like being watched - but by yourself. Very difficult to explain!

[@gracelewis6071]

I hope you are well. If you find yourself in the same place today, I just watched this video that you might find helpful... he talks about the "knower" kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJ_GY2CahMyLb8U

[@SolarJakee]

How has vipassana and meditation helped you if I may ask? (assuming it has since you've spent thousands of hours doing it)

[@kagitsune]

It sounds like yours manifests in a similar way to mine. It really does sound nice to be a "Guinea Pig" for the plumbing of the mind, right? Like, I barely grasp that this is reality, might as well contribute to neuroscience for our trouble.

[@RickNuthman]

@MeanderingMarsupial that is a great question. If I go on retreat, for example, after a few days the way that I perceive my experience of life is completely changed. I still have the same sensations, but there is a very different reaction. The depersonalization is still there, but it is seen as no better or worse than any other experience. Even discomfort just becomes oddly interesting. Everything is just simply OK just as it is. It is as if the fear element is taken away. Without the fear it just feels like everything is freedom. This usually lasts for a few days or so after I get home from retreat, then fear begins to creep back in and I get embedded in the experience again. When I meditate on my own, I usually slip into a milder form of this way of experiencing. I can feel the shift. When it happens my misery seems somehow funny. It's like watching a toddler have a fit over nothing, but there is no way to make the child understand. This usually has a residue that lasts a short while after I stop meditating, but then the fear creeps back in. I don't want or need to be blissed out all the time. That isn't what I am talking about. It is as if there is a switch that gets flipped inside of me. When switched off, I just know that everything is fine. Pure being with no desire to reject anything that is happening. Pure freedom.When switched on, it is like being trapped in the middle of infinity with nowhere to go.

[@RickNuthman]

@Naomi and Corvin it's like being in a virtual reality environment. You can't be 100% sure of it, but you can feel it deep down that this isn't real. It creates such an existential anxiety. Is everyone else a projection? If there is no one in here, then there must be no one out there either. It's funny how you hear about someone becoming enlightened and they say 'wow, it is just this! There is no separation!' Where in my case I say 'omg, it is just this! There is no separation! I am utterly and hopelessly alone!' Which is unmatchably terrifying.

[@adrianmutimer5022]

This was wonderful. I had DP DR and did not know what it was when I was a child. It was the result of extreme stress arising from my family situation (which was dysfunctional). Later I became interested in spirituality and soon there was massive fear. The fear was a memory of the DP DR. A person that has this happen to them has both the extreme pull of spirituality offset by an equal measure of fear. It is a horrible place to be. I do not know how I got out of the DP DR. It just happened, but I do have the deepest feeling for those that are in it.

[@kadiokbaabdelmoumen2361]

There is no out , you got away by making yourself busy , i thought ones that i got out , but it returned to me (DR/DP) , but in the end i learned to live with it , and not to panic

[@TTInfiniteGaming]

@@kadiokbaabdelmoumen2361 there's a difference between making yourself busy and simply focusing on the present moment.

[@Peacemonkey456]

I feel im on the border line of realization, and constant derealization. Its a battle between the mindfulness as well as psychological trauma. Sometimes my walls fall down, and I know who I am deep down. And other times my walls fall down and i forget everything and i feel stuck in this alternate realm. Where there is no understanding

[@squamish4244]

Alcohol depresses the nervous system and reduces anxiety, which is the real problem with DP/DR. I have never returned to the state of subjective experience I lived before DP/DR, but my anxiety about DP dropped off to the point where I no longer care that my sense of self has shifted. Be careful though, as I got addicted to benzos as a result of the extreme anxiety produced by DP and the great relief they brought. And they are also a depressant with a very similar mode of operation as alcohol. Getting off of them was hell. So be very careful that you don't tip over into a full-blown alcoholic.

[@kagitsune]

@@squamish4244 Thank you for this, those benzos are really volatile stuff.

[@marikeva4149]

Thank you for posting this video- I'm just finding it now in 2017. I've had DP Disorder for 10-15 years, really, my entire life as an adult. It contains, in a word, hell. I appreciate the title of "enlightenment's evil twin", and believe you're spot on. The areas you get into, and the musing about the difference from more of a psychospiritual Buddhist perspective is something that has certainly occupied my mind, sometimes obsessively over these years, and something that I would assume has certainly been on the minds of others with the condition. It actually seems to encourage existential rumination and comparison of this nature. I only wish I'd found people discussing things like this earlier- but, of course, in 2009, I didn't know that DP/DR had a name, and no one I went to seek help from seemed to, either. Unfortunately, I would venture to guess that when people with the condition are in the worst of it, partly defined by not knowing what the hell is going on with them and feeling isolated in it, they are not aware of what the condition is called, to even come across videos such as this that may actually provide some comfort. I don't know if this is a posting that you still revisit, or if the questions you pose in this video are questions you have delved any further into, or still ones that you have. But I for one, would be fascinated to know the outcome. It's obviously worth exploration, particularly, as you said, there really is not anything that is established as an effective treatment, and people can live, or essentially, not live, their entire lives in this void. It's freakish, and almost impossible to explain just how much so. So is it possible to use the same techniques you would use to guide a meditator back who was wandering into the pit? It's hopeful. I must say, I appreciate the caution and spirit of genuine inquiry that you present without assumption, because I think you're also correct in recognizing that certain reflective techniques are not helpful in DP/DR- they actually exacerbate the problem. Thank you so much.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Marikeva how r u now

[@squamish4244]

Ooff. It's been most of my adult life too. I was 27 when I got smacked with DP/DR after a terrifying psychedelic trip. I had many panic attacks. But I started to recover. The real problem came when my mental state started to crumble under the extreme stress a year later combined with too much time alone. Even so, I still could have recovered, except then I was addicted to benzodiazepines by my lazy, incompetent former doctor and they destroyed my life. I developed kundalini syndrome at the same time, a raging torrent of energy throughout the body that people who have had psychedelic trips can get. have been through six failed detoxes and hell on earth for 15 years since, so 17 years total. I am 44 now. I lost my career, I have no relationship, I have no children. I am financially dependent on my parents and I have a side gig as an UberEats driver. At least I have my own place and a car. I got my former doctor punished for his massive overprescription and total failure to help me, but the damage had been done. We'll see where things go now. I would really like a relationship but all my issues frighten away a lot of women when my options are limited to online dating and a dating service. I have much invaluable help from healers, competent doctors and naturopaths, and every form of treatment I could find. Right now, ketamine therapy seems to be effective in blowing off the kundalini energy. But a spiritual breakthrough or transformation still eludes me. All that hard work, all that destruction of my life, and I have little to show for it. Much greater empathy for those in pain, ruthlessly pragmatic approach to spirituality - it really needs to evolve, change and incorporate technologies means - and much greater knowledge of the mind. But I am an anxious, insomniac mess, and I am not happy. Stay away from benzodiazepines, except in emergencies! Or in very tightly restricted, supervised usage! Please!

[@carlapastorracionero5492]

People suffering from this would really appreciate that you shared your knowledge and conclusions about depersonalization. It could be useful to know how you helped those who felt depersonalised because of meditation.

[@TunnelsofGold]

Funnily enough, I entered a spontaneous state of DP/DR when I was 17. I was holding my breath while going through a tunnel and when I came out the other side, like a flash, I was suddenly aware of a change. I felt non existent, like everything around me, and myself included, no longer existed. I was so shocked by this experience that I started having a panic attack. This continued for close to a year, and I never divulged the information to anyone. I nearly did to my mother when I was at my worst, but after a while I managed to get it under control, and in a strange way I felt that it strengthened me mentally. At the time though, it was an immensely dark feeling. You have to somehow anchor yourself to 'reality' or what we perceive as reality. It's difficult, especially once you've had that irreversible look into nothingness and the dark void discussed here. I still suffer from relapses occasionally and they can be overwhelming at times, but I'm better at controlling and understanding it. I could probably even bring one on right now if I tried hard enough. But I won't be doing that. Don't let it overcome you though; because if you sink far enough in, trying to come back will be unimaginably hard.

[@squamish4244]

***** I've done a lot of work for nine years now and have had hundreds of panic attacks and a few trips to the ER. Unfortunately I also had an anti-anxiety drug addiction for years that really complicated things. I hope I too can experience this pure quietude, and not in another nine years.

[@squamish4244]

I've worked very hard on mindfully confronting my anxiety and I work with a healer as well. I have managed to quell my panic attacks, but the anxiety persists at a fundamental level with a profound sense of unease in the world. I'm disappointed that all the massive effort has led only to 'bleh'. It seems some people have different brains than others that are more easily disposed to breakthroughs. All the talk on here of light, bliss, love raining down, void, peace - it has never happened and it is really frustrating.

[@squamish4244]

***** Thank you for your kind words. But we all have different ways of approaching enlightenment. I think I'm rather less mystical and more clinical about the whole process. I do think it is partly about the brain. I think the neurological and biochemical mechanisms that are involved have been overlooked by spirituality for too long, probably because for thousands of years we didn't know even know they existed. That's why I very much relate to Shinzen's approach - taking the 'mist' out of mysticism. But your words are helpful nevertheless.

[@SolarJakee]

@@squamish4244 how're you doing now? You remind me of myself in that you view things clinically and mechanically. I suspect this doesn't help when you have dp, since dp strips everything of meaning.

[@squamish4244]

@@SolarJakee Hi! Actually, viewing things mechanically has helped me a lot when dealing with DP, because it has helped pull the emotions out of it. Everything is stripped of meaning, sure. But as long as you remind yourself of an underlying unity and oneness, you will be okay. And do what you can to work towards that recognition directly. I already had some Buddhist background when I got DP. So I knew that there wasn't really a 'self' at the centre of things to begin with, and now I was just experiencing it directly. It was still stark raving terrifying. But it helped be get a handle on things. I hadn't lost any fundamental part of myself, since you can't lose your awareness. Viewing things clinically allowed me to methodically approach what has turned out to be a far more difficult path than I thought. But it became that way because I got addicted to benzodiazepines AND developed kundalini syndrome at the same time, about a year after the terrifying trip on pot brownies that resulted in the DP in the first place. If not for these twin complications, I would have progressed much faster out of anxiety and panic. Above all, the benzos. They are horrible drugs to get off of and I've failed many withdrawals, a stint in detox, very expensive intravenous therapy etc. The kundalini energy would always boil up and ruin the withdrawal. The GABAergic system that benzos work on has been heavily weakened by benzo abuse. It is the primary regulatory system in the nervous system. The DP is long since gone. This is its legacy. (And my buttf*cking former doctor. The arrogant ass f*cked up everything when I first got hooked on benzos. Eventually his own college found against him in a complaint I filed). I went through a major shift this spring where I ran out of medication and 'dumped' a huge amount of energy out of my body. Things have changed since then. I think I finally found the right antidepressant, Lexapro, for anxiety and moodiness. I work with energy healers who have helped enormously with my energetic problems and benzo withdrawal symptoms. I do neurofeedback, which is amazing and like 100x more efficient than meditation. I am on the waiting list for intravenous ketamine therapy this fall. (I missed my consultation on July 2 because...they forgot to tell me it was in person at their office and not over video. Like wtf.) Ketamine is indicated in anxiety, OCD, circadian rhythm problems as I have, and benzo dependency. There is way too much airy-fairy, impractical bullshit out there in the spiritual community. Gurus who spout spiritual pablum and have literally never had even one student reach their level and 99% of them never get close to enlightened. Or the opposite and just as bad, traditional teachers who refuse to consider how technology or psychedelics or both is transforming spirituality and want you to spend weeks or months (or years) on retreat in order to truly become enlightened. It's created a class of rich white people who can afford to travel for retreats and don't have children at home and...etc. Ridiculous. Shinzen, on the other hand, is working with a neuroscientist at the University of Arizona on a very promising spiritual technology: tricycle.org/trikedaily/brain-stimulation-meditation/ Many others are hard at work on this problem too. So I am greatly encouraged by this trend. The message you should take from my story is that if you have the right tools you can recover quite quickly from DP. Energy healing with a _good_ healer (hard to find), neurofeedback, exercise, meditation, medication. If I had known 16 years ago what I know now I could have made huge progress on my DP, anxiety and OCD and be way ahead of where I am now. If you have more questions, please ask.

[@laurynasplisasno-selfride3824]

I like how he delicately accepts, that he doesn't know enough about this subject. It's not a life sentence, rather a gift, that you will integrate to your life (and overcome). Be grateful that you got this challenge and can come out of it with more clarity. DP/DR origins are from anxiety and let that be the gift you got to practice acceptance and complete surrender. Don't fight it, let it be as it is. Don't identify with the symptoms - it's not you. Just accept them. And do what you would do - one thing at a time. I feel it can go together with the dark night of the soul where you layer by layer strip of what's not you. It's my experience - so I don't know if it's true. But it was a great ego training fosure. You'll see it yourself. And for those who are looking for answers right now in this dysfunctional state - dig Claire Weekes "Hope and Help for your Nerves", Paul David "At last a life" and Barry McDonagh "Dare". Really lays down the anxiety mechanism with all the symptoms (DP/DR too), shows you for what it is and tells you what to do. You'll get through this and come out better. Not very spiritcorrect sentence, but you get the point, haha.

[@wessel_g45]

Great video. Wanted to share the following as I have experience with this and it might help someone. I have experienced DP/DR for longer periods of time and was eventually diagnosed with a DP/DR disorder. It scared me out of my pants the first time it happened. Everything looked and felt far away, empty, grey and lifeless. It was like I was experiencing life from behind a glass wall. Eventually I got out of it through understanding what it is and applying principles from Acceptance & Commitment Therapy (which derives its practices from Buddhism). 1) Understanding what it is: your brain is trying to protect you DP/DR is a result of the brain somehow perceiving a threat and trying to protect us. It's a way of the brain to detach you from reality and to reduce the mental impact of the dangerous things going on. You can see this in action when someone gets into an accident. People often tell stories of things going in slowmotion, or things going by in a blur, or things being far away and distant, as if they weren't really there when it happened. That is DP/DR. It's a mechanism of the brain to protect it's 'user' from 'mental damage'. And when the brain is in survival mode, it momentarily shuts off all functions that aren't necessary for survival. We don't need happy feelings when we are trying to survive in the moment, so it's nothing but logical you won't feel those. So, thank your brain for trying to be helpful. Have compassion for what it is trying to accomplish for you. Understand that it's just trying to protect you and that it will stop throwing up that DP/DR filter whenever it feels safe gain. 2) Practice acceptance and live your life The more you try to judge and fight with the sensations of dullness and emptiness, the more your brain will think there still is something wrong (keeping you in a DP/DR state). Just let it be. Accept you are going to feel like this for now and that it will move on whenever your brain is ready. Then, focus on doing the things in life that are important to you. Go live your life, however you feel. Show your brain there is nothing to be scared of - while having compassion for it. Connect with the things that matter to you and then slowly, over time, your brain will switch back on all of its normal emotional functions again. All the best! :)

[@ASMRAlchemy]

I'm a positive Nihilist, I've been meditating for years to help with feeling trapped & out of control. I felt I went through a level of enlightenement & it helped. I've been consciously applying the affirmation that I am more than my body & focusing on moving my conciousness & am experiencing serious DP. I also follow practices of mystics like Frans Bardon. I feel trapped again but in my own body, like a machine in 2D. I don't know if I'm brainwashed or having a realisation. I think it's always been there. I just hope I can get to the other side as anyone who knows, it feels worse than depression

[@upperdecker237]

I have horrible social anxiety and I experience depersonalization and derealization whenever around a group of people. It feels like I'm in a dreamlike state while watching myself in a movie and I'm waiting for the character(me) to do something yet there's literally nothing in my mind to say or do and I feel like I'm a completely different person. It's debilitating.

[@tick999]

Had anyone had problems with head pressure while meditating? I experienced this DP/DR but I thought it was because I somehow did meditation wrong and induced this head pressure behind/between the eyes. I've been to 9 retreats now and every time I get this head pressure but when I stop practice it goes away. This time I've been consistent with practice and now the pressure goes and comes on by it's self everyday. The emptiness came on sudden. First a blue flash. Everything looked more 2 dimensional and a little fake. My reflection looked fake. My personality had gone, my mind wasn't chattering, I felt empty. The lights were on but no one home. There was a sense of shock and a little fear. I tried to sleep it off. In the morning I was back to normal. I stopped meditation practice again. I didn't know what happened then someone told me about the void and I found this helpful video. 2 years later I only get pressure if I meditate. It's definitely something in my brain moving but all the videos on KZbin are talking about chakra and kundalini awakening. I don't have time for pseudoscience. People telling you to mess around with your brain. They don't know what they're talking about. That's why I only like Thai Forest style Buddhism. No superstition, just straight meditation practice. This guy in the video is honest and realistic too. I need a brain scan or something.

[@poguri27]

I had head pressure as well, where you describe, especially after a period of intense practice. In my case, it went away after a few days break and carefully resuming practice, paying attention for any tension to develop there and relaxing it promptly. I am quite sure it's just muscle tension, possibly related to the muscles that control your eyes, so it's kind of just a bad habit that can be unlearned. It's like learning to raise one eyebrow, except you are learning to unraise it.

[@MrShahid0072]

So many misinformed so called "Spiritual" people in the comment section. Talking about destroying the ego as if it's a real thing. The self is not an illusion. It's a process. The illusion was a your view of the self. The way you viewed self was as if it's something stable that you have been carrying throughout life and when you awaken that illusion of being a stable self or permanent center is dispelled. Buddha said "not self". He didn't say "no self" which means Self isn't exactly how you thought it was. Talking about sifting your identity completely to "higher self" is just delusional. Ideas like these that you are not this ego and you must kill it to become your true self is the prime reason people feel this guilt and it takes then to DP/DR situations.We should have a healthy view of what "self" is. Even if you have awakened you are still a person. Ego is not your enemy but because it's embedded deep into our psyche by these new age lunatics who think they know better.That's where all the problem lies. Some of these "Awakened" people and their bullshit is laughable. Try to understand who you really are after awakening and don't fall for this bullshit ideas that you are just pure consciousness or God and and every aspect of your personality is flawed or something. It's not. Duality is sacred. If it wasn't why would this God or nature allow it? Some awakened fools piss me off!

[@alexanderhlebino]

perfectfifth from dpselfhelp

[@80mbeats]

I agree with this

[@quantessenz]

Happend to me after seeing the ochs, because it was so shocking for me and alot of old stuff came up. So it began with a dissociation. Took 2-3 years to heal. Was depressed and even fantasied about suicide. Everything felt pointless. Maybe you can call it dark night, but even the emptiness felt wrong. So I believe, there is a connection. I remember the darkest moment was december 2022, and suddenly it was all over. No panic attacks, no burnout, no depression anymore. And step by step, the emptiness feels more welcome. Feels like an integration of some kind. Maybe normal part of process, but I don't believe it is like that for many people. Difficult birth here, but I keep going. I know it will get better, because it already got.

[@Peacemonkey456]

I think I'm falling into the void. I've practiced mindfulness since I was 15. This experience at times makes me feel grand, because I know I am not this body. Like seeing myself through different eyes. But its hard to pursue an outward motive, when I almost constantly feel this thiness. I'm back in society, because the people I love are here. But I exisit in a different world. How do we solidify and stop the dissacociation

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

I had it about 20 years ago after a brain infection. It was a horrendous experience and in winter months I still sometimes feel glimpses of it. On the other hand the depersonalisation during meditation is something different altogether and it is pleasant.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Mispan how r u now

[@mariannczerna]

I've had this too last year for a month. Than I discovered I was taking vitamins, eating foods I was allergic/sensitive to without knowing it. Many people are sensitive to synthetic foods/supplements/caffeine. I'm one of them. Try eliminating some foods/other things too see if it'll go away. It did for me. Here are some thing you can be sensitive to, and have symptoms like that: caffeine, synthetic iodine(in all multivitamins), synthetic calcium, table salt, gluten/wheat, sugar, All the best!:)

[@maydesbiens2361]

I thought I would write this comment for people who would like to hear some advices/suggestions from someone that had DP/DR... First of all, don't give up!!! It will get better. It may not seem like it some days, but it will. If i may suggest some technics that helped me (and is still helping for my anxiety) : doing grounding technics (name things around you, take cold shower, taste something, listen to a music that make you super happy... whatever sense that works the best for you) help me to connect with myself when im starting to feel DP/DR. Also, you can try noticing what are the circumstances around your DP/DR moments. It will help you to see what causes those episodes. Basically, we need to help our brain to make new ''paths'' when we have a triggers, so the cycle of DP/DR does not restart (talking psychology here). Also, the fear of having DP/DR is itself something to work on... or else it comes back. In addition, having compassion toward ourselves, accepting the present moment and grounding ourselves physically is what I find help the most. Finally, it helped me to understand the reason of DP/DR in a psychological way, but also there is something spiritual/existential there too to figure out... 💜 Anyways. I don't wanna talk for others, but this is what helped me. I just sincerely wish the best to everyone that read this that have DP/DR, as I know how terrible it feels. But don't forget, it will get better eventually. Sending good energies to all of you.

[@jokicback2backmvp877]

How are you doing now?

[@lokiholland]

I related to this phenomena within myself at the end of last year, I felt empty and everything else felt empty, even breath lost its vitality, as if the air was grey.I could not speak I could not think any thought, there was no contrast between things at all, there was no reflections or fractals everything was just this absentness. This came about after two months of intensive breath awareness meditation and a further previous six months of daily toning and spiritual study. my own mental history would suggest that I was a candidate for this falling into the void experience. the turning point of this was actually the bottom of the pit for this absence and a birth within my awareness, one of the final realizations was that even in the annihilation of this body in death, that the awarness that was within the whole would continue to experience this absence as if it was bound to all things then it moved somewhat in its perception and changed and then there was this I that was this absence, in that moment of realization that this was an absence of infinite and eternal proportion a new part of self was born and this new I fell to the knees and shook and cried and screamed into this void for some sort of help, I literally had my hands out screaming, that breaking point of that need filled this new me with a warmth and a spaciousness that literally changed absence into me, who felt an incredible spaciousness, as if the infinite and the eternal made me from the absence in order to reveal itself to the me that i am , It was awful but in my breaking It was a gift.

[@TheGraveyardCowboy]

What he describes as the healing for meditating students moving in this direction is what I have done with my own DP/DR for the past twenty years, and it has significantly helped. The unreality of those with DDD is not an emptiness but usually contains a high degree of obsessive thinking. This obsessive thinking is the anxiety of the body that moves into the mental unreality. The difference between DDD and enlightenment is minimiscule and monumental. Developing the "muscle" that allows the mind to quiet thoughts and even develop awareness that is beyond thinking in turn re-associates the dissociation. What Mr. Young doesn't touch on (though he sense he knows about it) is the anxiety that can get exarcebated once dissociation diminishes. It's an anxiety most often springing from developmental trauma. The journey from DDD to a "healthy" nonduality is a journey of quieting thoughts and breathing through anxiety; it is a journey of lessening the stress response. But the underlying core shame from the trauma must also be dealt with from both an experiential psychodynamic sense. Unfinished business from adolescent development is key. It is my belief and experience that healing from DDD can happen through the method Mr. Young points at. For me, it was the only way. The initial experience that began my DDD was in a sense an "initiation," albeit a dark and ugly one.

[@kagitsune]

Thank you for this arrow on my journey back to an integrated sense of reality. This comment section is a treasure.

[@gabriellevautour23]

Wow this really helps. Ive experienced dp/dr intensely before but not for a few years. I just finished a 10 vipassana retreat a couple days ago and its resurfaced, this really helps.

[@unbelievablesuccess]

Be grateful that you're one of the few having an 'experimental' mindset. You're special. You may suffer from this condition at first, but also experience less suffering in other areas (such as envy, jealousy). It's not good, not bad, but different. If you can't change it, accept it! After seeing this video I labeled my state 'DP/DR' for the first time in months, contrary to doing so every single day for years prior to starting meditation. Meditation changed everything. Feels good, man!

[@PersonS6]

I had some DR experiences before I started mediating but it actually increased after I started meditating. I remember the first time I did a session for 6 hours and for the rest of the evening I was completely out of it which was not at all what I expected (I wanted to be calm and clear and blablabla). DP and DR is a reaction to trauma. When you meditate and you go inside, especially if you've never done that before, you're going to be confronted with things within yourself that you might be very difficult to deal with. Now I don't think that this is a bad thing but I am starting to understand why some people believe that you really need a competent teacher to guide you when you start meditating. Also I think they should emphasise this 'darker' part of meditation more in beginners courses and meditation apps. Meditation is a wonderful practice but for me it really made my life worse before they could get better. Anyway, I was talking about DR. I don't think it's the same emptiness because DR is a very physical reaction. I would literally feel like my vision was blurred when it happened. It's a reaction to complete overwhelm but there is still very much a world and a self you're holding onto. Moments of enlightenment bring clarity, not blurriness.

[@sangeetalambh6389]

Sarepaar how r u now

[@Someuglydude12]

this has to be the worst mental disorder ever. Because not only do you not understand yourself or live a life that you can enjoy. But, it produces other disorders such as depression, anxiety, ocd, etc.. It isn't just one disorder to deal with. But a branch of disorders that repel you down a deep hole than I don't think i'll ever come up from.

[@ChristopherShreeve]

You should contact the speaker in the video then. He claims to have had success in guiding people toward the positive aspect of enlightenment. Don't give up.

[@PavelValkoun92]

depersonalizationrecovery.com/

[@Someuglydude12]

@ateb3 yeah it's been three years since I posted this. My dp/dr is very manageable now. I actually don't mind it anymore. I just stay away from weed and drugs due to the exacerbation

[@sangeetalambh6389]

@@Someuglydude12 how r u now

[@seenybeany]

I experienced DR about a year ago. I recovered in roughly two weeks. 5 months later I found these terms (DR/DP) online. I quickly became obsessively anxious about, and was able to bring the feelings on at will. It really just heightened and perpetuated my sense of anxiety by knowing. I'd say it's better to not be as conscious of it, better to not comprehend the feelings, and to not understand the origin of these feelings. Just knowing two simple terms has made life a lot harder for me.

[@PowerBeam724]

I believe that what happens during this event is that the student realizes that there is no meaning to the self and is trapped in a negative emotional state, they either don’t realize or don’t accept that this realization gives them a sense of control over their own emotional state, I believe that by peering into the void and keeping a calm mindset is the key to escaping the void.

[@vivstarrful101]

Love 💕 the ending honestly better than sitting in misery over something you can use as a super power. Perception. 👁

[@mayanktyagi03]

So to overcome this void of ego death , Ego goes straight to everything is one pure oneness and for 99% it repeat old pattern of seek more knowledge. Knowledge is dead and we all know this those who are facing DP/DR knows what it is. The pointer that he gave to do positive self image from Void is seems only solution. If you are freaking out then you have to built your own anchor let your mind a flot first (classic dark night of soul) it will jump to void again and again. I have ADHD and i take medicine and for me it really changed my point of view of the void or my reaction to it. Peace to everyone . Void = Everything

[@gaiusII]

In DP/DR, the ego mind is experienced as a real and separate entity, separate from the rest of life (which is seen as an illusion, a projection of the mind). The erroneous belief here is thinking that the "I" or the "ego mind" is a real and separate entity floating off somewhere in the void. When in fact the "ego mind" is an inseparable part of "life" and all that is perceived. This is nonduality. Duality is the perception that "I" am separate from it all. Duality is an illusion. I spent a many years in DP/DR terror and illusion. It has been my greatest fear and greatest teacher.

[@jjaammee11]

What happened to me was that a few years ago I was completely absorbed in new age teachings. IE - Burt Harding, Adyshanti. Deepak Chopra... Well to make a long story short. I was listening to these (Enlightened Masters) and had a full blown panic attack. It was the worst experience of my life. What I felt was that there is no God, no existence, no love. I freaked out and took a drive. The world seemed like it was made of cardboard and that I was the only thing in existence.

[@omiadi7485]

Extremely interesting topic revealing the multidimensionality of perspectives or aspects of self. What helps me is to return every non-beneficial thought or experience back to energy.

[@sarahjrurka]

Can you please further explain what you mean? This resonates!

[@sarahjrurka]

**specifically**what you mean when you say returned back to energy

[@margomango5090]

I've had DP and DR for a few years, and I have also practiced and studied Buddhist meditation. To me, the two are separate even though I understand the connection made. Meditation, particularly mindfulness is greatly helpful for me, and also is reflection on interdependence. I have had mild but consistent DP/DR, and two particularly terrifying episodes that were more radical than anything i've experienced in my life. You say that someone with DP/DR should look for a teacher trained in the disorder. But the issue is not known to many people and that includes meditation teachers.

[@squamish4244]

Margo Mango I don't think he's referring to meditation as DP; he's referring to the experience of No-Self and its similarities to DP. I had DP too, and the shock was horrendous, seeing that there is no 'me' there, but not enough to be freeing. But my recovery was aided greatly by mindfulness. I still have not truly seen to the bottom of the pit of DP, but I know what he means.

[@flexnetuser2268]

Margo Mango Well said. I do not think it’s well understood. But then, childhood damage, which is the cause of so much suffering, is also not well understood. If one fails to develop a self during childhood, it’s very hard to do it later on, in sort of the way it’s almost impossible to learn to talk later in life. It’s possible to make a place to live in the mind, for some people. But it’s hard to fix this problem of never having developed a self because of having been so traumatized one did not experience life. Because then, the wiring that would have been laid in year after year during childhood, does not exist. And it’s hard to even understand that you have this problem, because you have no reference point for what you are missing. I don’t think people who have never had this condition can understand it. I do not even think they can recognize it when they encounter it. Their suggestions often feel to me like suggestions for further dissociation. And a person with this issue, instead of the experience of functioning in childhood as a foundation, has a foundation of shifting sand, which creates unreality and terror. It can be helped, I think, by a very evolved, compassionate trauma therapist, who has great patience, and time. Or, failing that, perhaps a friend with those qualities, because most people cannot afford that type of therapy even if they can find someone like that. But learning mindfulness helps just about every problem, and Shinzen Young is a great teacher. It can possibly. give you a somewhat more stable place to stand until you can find a way to repair the damage. Shinzen says if he had another lifetime he might study DPDR. That would be great. So he is not saying mindfulness can fix it, or that he knows what it is.

[@ajitesh764]

@@squamish4244 how did u overcome it....was it mindfulness meditation?

[@squamish4244]

Meditation, energy healers, brainwave technology, vigorous workout routines, a compound called NAD+ that resets many receptors in the brain. Neurofeedback training is probably the fastest and most accessible. I have been using NeurOptimal. But several methods used in conjunction is often best.

[@SolarJakee]

@@squamish4244 hey mate, any chance of giving a bit more detailed breakdown of what you mean by energy healers and brainwave technology? Also, you ever try jiu jitsu? It's the only thing I've found that without fail instantly snaps me out of dissociation.

[@Davidthemarathoner]

Thank you. Your explanation is very clear.

[@alexgon102308]

Wow.... Amazing, I remember when I feel into the emptiness of DP it was so sudden and powerful. Its as if reality becomes nuclear, but as he said you have to rebuild your self from the nothing and create a new something to keep living for :-)

[@buzifalus]

I had the same thoughts about DP/DR. IMO The way of unbinding as is actually taught in Vipassana needs to be done form a right position otherwise it results in DP/DR. There needs to be IMO spaciousness , or what I call "having the Heart behind the practice". In the sutras they say that the spiritual practice is like a poisonous leaf- in that that if you hold it from the wrong place it will 'bite' you,..

[@ayiltonpalate9217]

thanks for this..your explanation was so perfect , it made me cry. for me it happened by folloring leo techniques and got dammnn I was never the same. Stay Blessed

[@ayiltonpalate9217]

@@thareealgee yes

[@epicbehavior]

I had it back in 2013 and I can’t even remember what it was like. Like why is it even problematic that life is meaningless? We create our own meaning and BEING is thousands of times more rewarding than meaning ever will be.

[@wthomas7955]

The difference is obvious. It is understanding.

[@IowaLanguages]

If these things happen, why meditate? I say keep your mind healthy. Life has enough suffering as it is. No one really knows if there’s an end to samsara or if multiple lives are real. I can’t mess up my mind. I work full-time and need money to provide for myself and my daughter.

[@ryanlewis194]

There are many stages of Derealization. From my experience the are as listed. 1. Awareness of true self. 2. Noticing false ego and choosing ego over true self. 3. becoming ego. 4. Trauma occurs causing panic. 5. No longer able to be ego true self surfaces to deal w trauma. 6. Guilt. 7. Desire to find self and to extinguish ego. 8. fight between ego and self. 9. body symptoms, anxiety, panic , guilt irrational fears, religious fears. 10. Overload, the mind solves the battle between ego and self by destroying ego. 11. Derealization , dreamy feelings surface as a distraction. 12. You are now focused on regaining peace of mind. The ego is gone. The original trauma has to be processed in order to advance to the last step. 13. Re awakening, self forgiveness, self love, and most of all SELF GRATITUDE. Never choosing ego again.

[@purplehaze502502]

+Ryan Lewis Can you speak a it more about healing the trauma which causes panic(4)?

[@kmurph2451]

HOW did you move into "RE-awakening" I'm really in a pit of despair here, but how you've outlined this is almost precisely what has happened to me..it was very pleasant and fun the first two months and I've shifted into a seemingly hopeless state of emotionless misery..a severe state of DP/DR.

[@ryanlewis194]

If there is a fight between ego and awareness or "true self" do not worry. Don't worry how to get back to that place of nirvana.. The most important thing to understanding is that you found true self. Once you find this state of true self it's never forgotten kind of like certain smells or tastes. Loss of enlightenment is not a bad thing. The very practice of searching is a wonderfull path. The ego wants things now. The ego fears the change, the ego panics at the idea of loss. Your true nature can be found by observing breathing, extend the same observing of breath, to observing of your life.

[@ryanlewis194]

K Murph . Number 1 is finding true self.. Most people never find this in a lifetime so pat yourself on back. . When a trauma happens you are faced with guilt. Trauma directly calls your ego to deal with it. Your ego at this stage is at its maximum. It says you should have, could have, would have done. Forgive your self for choosing ego. Or forgive the "un- enlightened" being that did you HARM if in abuse. You will experience guilt#6. That is normal as your ego dosent forgive. #7. Once you truly forgive, true self will surface. At this point you might jump to #12. However, guilt and shame caused by trauma take time to process in the mind. Make it your goal to find self, find peace, forgive, live and observe self.

[@ryanlewis194]

I've also been finding many with derealization as a result of marijuana use. I find this interesting because the ego came to surface and said "marijuana " will make your experience better. If derealization is a result of marijuana use it is still a trauma caused by ego. Same steps to find self again.. Derealization is a secondary to trauma and or anxiety.

[@sheldini2002]

A common issue with DP/DR are these negative horrible thoughts we think. We realize there is nothing, so we assume that's a bad thing, after all, we are taught from a very young age that having no meaning is a bad thing. So our mind goes "WTF" and freaks out a bit. We get this weird feeling like we aren't real because our body is releasing cortisol and adrenalin. Everything we thought we knew falls. We go into this paradox thinking pattern. You need to stop it. My experience so far.

[@killercreek450]

i experienced this... i surrendered to it a while back, the feeling of emptiness... started meditation soon after to try and figure the whole thing out lol, life is enjoyable now but it's definitly not the same lol...

[@robertwhite2449]

Thank you for this. I found that an intensive 10 day vipassana retreat triggered a significant depersonalisation / derealization episode that I never fully recovered from. I used Headspace for a while which was much less emphasised on focussing on the lack of substance of things n consciousness, but recently moved to Sam Harris's Waking Up where there is relentless intense focus on this (he calls it ' having no head') and it's beginning to trigger the same DP / DR symptoms again.

[@SolarJakee]

Can I ask what symptoms arise? And I'm assuming they come along with intense anxiety/dread? I've had dp/dr for some time now and I'm thinking of doing a 10 day silent retreat.

[@asstornaut1066]

What do you mean by pit of the void?

[@selmo6376]

It's funny, listening to Shinzen I can only say I have enough problems with depresion and loosing my self during meditation or if meditation helps to aliviate my torturing thinking flowing would be a huge relief.

[@zenpool5918]

I really enjoyed this. I suffered from DP/DR onset from too many psychedelics, more specifically after an intensely negative DMT trip which left me in a psychosis for 8 months. Since then (3 years have passed) I had always been able to maintain the same cognitive functions but my existence became characterized by an acute awareness of my body... (Depersonalization) and that reality itself seemed paper thin as you describe it (Derealization). I experience it probably 50% of my waking time now and it's the least noticable when I'm in a flow state. Although I find it annoying, ive come to terms with it and have stopped the attempt of "returning to normal" and have just accepted it as my normal. This acceptance has only been for a couple months but I have already improved drastically in QOL. DP/DR is a beast that can be fed and nurtured or can be starved into oblivion and it's food is analysis, concentration, and worry about whether or not it will go away. Interesting side note. It seems to have a direct link with your limbic system and more specifically your amygdala whereas your brain is basically in a hightened state to separate you from a perceived threat... So anxiety could be an underlying cause. If you have DP/DR and are concerned about it I can promise you one thing. You CAN get better, and you WILL by just living your life, getting out of your head, and start engaging with the world again. Stop focusing exactly on how you feel at every moment, you don't need that now. Now is the time to live your life and your mind will take care of the rest. If you have any questions just ask me as I have overcome major Depression, Anxiety, PTSD, DP/DR, and Psychosis all naturally and have been able to take my life back. I know the same can be done for you.

[@siddarthyonzon144]

Could you help me to heal dp/dr, my anxiety and my past trauma and I constantly dissociate from myself and the world.

[@zenpool5918]

@@siddarthyonzon144 I'd love to get the chance to speak with you! Give me a little time (I just woke up) but I'll send you a link to discord if.you have that. Do you have a discord?

[@zenpool5918]

@@siddarthyonzon144 send me yours I will add you idk how to do it here

[@siddarthyonzon144]

@@zenpool5918 You can add me on discord.gg/T8PsqJD9

[@dimitrimandeleev2669]

@@zenpool5918 I also need help

[@bahaaemad2730]

i dont think about dpdr until i start searching and watching videos about it, but a lot of you guys say we should not increase the anxiety therefore not think about it , though i don't think about it why am i not cured yet?

[@aaaaaa-hw5vo]

Thank you for this information it's very helpfull.

[@jedidiahjoseph7122]

i have seen both sides of the coin and im still going through it though im more in tune and it isnt as scary as i thought to be in the beginning. it gets scary when you mistake yourself for your body (your mind) and it tries to put a logical explanation to it almost as if its tryiung to not let u experience this empowerment. I went into a state of like physcosis where everything was rushing into my head at once but once you accept that its a process you are going through your able to see it more clearly and it becomes very emopwering. The most important thing u must do is educate yourself on the topic. ive noticed a mass diffrence. Once you educate yourself it makes the process much more smoother/enjoyable knowing that this change is for the better. I am still going through this and at times i feel like this phscosis effect happens but when it does i am able to maintain my compsure and it feels like im gradually coming closer to the end goal. Its almost as if the rush of thoughs speeds up the process once your able to realize that you arent your body and its just your mind doing what the mind does. With that being said i hope that everyone has a wonderful life and finds out the truth to themselves. Love and peace to all❤(im going through this without a teacher but information online has greatly imprve this experience and its far from Scary rn )

[@ExcellentHealth]

I believe Peter Ralston solved this question many years ago. Enlightenment and transformation of the contents of self are two different things. They correlate, but they don't necessarily affect each other. Knowing the true nature of existence does not necessarily mean that you will stop smoking. Again, enlightenment and transformation are two completely different things. Thus, the contents of the self can create an interpretation of enlightenment that becomes yet another part of the self. This interpretation, in relation to self survival, is of course going to be negative, since the notion of existing as a self has been seen through. If you've got DP/DR, you're just dealing with more self. That is it. Pursuing Consciousness is a great book if you're interested in the topic.

[@squamish4244]

Thank you, what you said is very encouraging.

[@sarahjrurka]

I was retraumatized meditating. I know exactly why this happens from an SE perspective. My suggestion is if you want to meditate, do body based meditation and mindfulness vs the more "absent" detached dissociated version.

[@kagitsune]

Hi there Sarah, I am also figuring out what types of meditation are safe for me. What is "SE" in this context?

[@sarahjrurka]

@@kagitsune hi there- somatic experiencing! See: Peter Levine where it originated or for a more modern take with lessons and integrates "somatic practice" and feldenkrais, see Irene Lyon. It's good embodiment work. Proprioception is key to trauma healing

[@kagitsune]

@@sarahjrurka Ah, thank you! Unfortunately my proprioception is naturally terrible due to another chronic illness, but I suppose some intentional practice could help make up for that.

[@sarahjrurka]

@@kagitsune ah yes, same, and the trauma as well of course? What illness do you have?

[@kagitsune]

@@sarahjrurka So far we think it's related to the Hypermobility and Ehlers-Danlos Syndromes. Research is showing it's quite prevalent in the ADHD/ASD female populations! No word on if the relationship is causative or simply a common comorbidity, though.

[@rekojeht5889]

Enligthenment is what happens when awareness floods through our system from root to crown. The channel through which awareness enters is two fold - one makes us experience awareness as raw experience or ”feeling” the other makes us aware of experience itself which allows us to think in a way other conscious creatures cannot - ying and yang. Almost everyone has an imbalance between these two with the ”feeling” part of awareness being the one lacking. In order to achieve enlightenment one must first bring balance between these two energies before awareness can make its journey through the system and come out at the other end. However certain people experience ”sponteneous” enlightenment or awakening without having first achieved balance, which makes the energy that is awareness amplify this imbalance making the experiential or ”feeling” part of awareness way less prominent and the ”awareness of awareness” way amplified hence giving you an experience of only watching your experience as supposed to actually experiencing it. The solution is to bring back balance between these two polar opposite energy channels through certain meditation techniques, breathing exercises or which ever way is best suited for that one individual to get back in touch with ”feeling”.

[@islamtanvir9230]

Excellent explained

[@simeondawkins9685]

please what is the most direct way to dive into the Void???

[@StClare_]

I'd be interested in hearing your views on the Qabalistic concept of the Abyss, or Da'ath. It seems similar to what you're talking about.

[@lisadunn7335]

This is definitely what I am experiencing. I would like some help with healing it. Does anyone know how to contact this man?

[@Raina430]

I think maybe one cause may be that the person never had a stable ego structure, and "faked it" the best they could until some stressors put on more pressure than the ego structure could bear. Coming out of that is hard,& requires many things. One of these is mindfulness meditation to ground the person in the body which connects them to their organic field of intelligence

[@imspring3033]

What does it mean to not have a stable ego structure?

[@sarahjrurka]

Yes!

[@obiessen]

what is the meaning of to cure?

[@michaelscott1263]

Is there anyway to get in touch with him?

[@Spyke2789]

i'm suffering from it...and i want to get rid of it....do you think you can help?

[@squamish4244]

I didn't know messages were being blocked...does it work now?

[@MichaelHuntington]

How did you get out of it? I was thrust into it by weed too. Were you able to smoke again without feeling it?

[@tarikay93]

Perhaps the feeling of depersonalization comes from the death of ego. The ego, by its nature, does not want to die. It wants to last forever, it is afraid of death. But when it dies, it also dies to the world and disassociates with it. The world is no longer that place where you've once put all your dreams upon. You have no dreams, you are fulfilled and at peace with your self. For you need nothing, the world looks like a dream.

[@NonDuality80]

DpDr is a subtle dissociative condition, rooted in ones painful psychology. Enlightenment is rooted in reality, free from any problems associated with being a limited person. DpDr is experienced as suffering, liberation is experienced as consciousness only., free

[@MrLando76]

DP/DR is very disheartening. Imagine never getting excited. Never having the normal reactions and feelings that everyone else seems to have on a day to day basis. I could go to an exotic Island and have the exact same feelings as if I were at work or at home. Best I can explain it is looking out a window from 2 feet behind it all the time.

[@Sebastian_Gecko]

Imagine you sit at home and it is as beautiful as being on an exotic island.

[@corwin114]

Hello. I have been in a state of permanent DR since feb 2009. I'm still in this state, but I have accepted it and I think methods like CBT and anchoring can cure it. Yet it can take a long time, and I assume you already got rid of the anxiety like me. This is a very hard time, but in a scientific and spiritual point of view very interesting. II'm currently looking into buddhism spirituality about that. Let me know if some buddhist practitionners want to know something about my experience. I'd gladly share it. best regards,

[@elisendadomenjo3223]

Do you still have it permanently

[@corwin114]

Yep but combined things like healthy life, meditation and "letting go" sure helps a lot, we can talk more in detail about it if you want :) I often forget being in ths state which is quite good.

[@lunitee]

That is very good indeed! You must have work very hard to achieve this...

[@trizthe1]

I have had it permanently since 2014. I would love whatever advise you can give! Is there any way I could contact you?

[@trizthe1]

Got mine due to untreated Complex PTSD

[@yacontrolalterdelete]

Eckhart tolle still gets the depression he always got - just as shinzen here admits he went into psychological therapy to tackle his issues that he continued to have after his sudden enlightenment

[@snapcracklefizzle9954]

lol okay? how you know eckhart tolle does lol

[@nd-ki3ts]

According to Eckhart Tolle, awakening is an event where thinking and awareness seperate. So there is a split in the mind and consciousness identifies with awareness; that explains the joy which in actuallity is the complete lack of suffering solely caused by the mind and ego (thought). In dp/dr the same thing happens. But, consciousness identifies with thinking and ego for the exchange of the outside world. For that reason the world seems unreal.

[@DreamscapeVision]

@TheFortressKing exactly. My mother has helped me through DR anxiety attacks. Just sitting with her gave me extreme comfort. It is so powerless upon you! You need to take it as a lesson - a grave and beautiful one. Eventually you may learn to enjoy the feeling, as the anxiety lifts from it and it becomes more of an enlightenment experience. Honestly, DR/DP is just another way of experiencing enlightenment.

[@vtecpreludevtec]

Iv always had dp,learning the Buddha Dharma has made it less scary.

[@markbrad123]

On a funny note, perhaps you should create a new acronym for DP; it does have other meanings of a sexual nature.

[@FindOrMakeit]

I have been going through this for over a year. No panic attacks.

[@jkerman5113]

Same, no panic attacks at all.

[@MarkyMark2177]

I had this and cured it with mindfulness. And giving up porn. I think It was caused by isolation, going through addiction recovery, switching addictions (to porn), and going through a period of worldview rearrangement. Also experienced a psychedelic trip before its onset, which brought back traumatic memories from my childhood. It really sucks but you can and WILL get out with mindfulness.

[@manyhumbles]

how do you recognize this "diagnosis" (hmmmmm)

[@danramirez5883]

iv been like a walking corps for 5 months, its horrible, it feels like I'm in some sort of hell, i hope it ends soon :(

[@purplehaze502502]

Might I ask what kind of work you did? Did you journal? Did you go to therapy? EMDR? Personally I find that when I start to split all me ego states I drive myself mad as I'm constantly aware and analyzing the different states. The only thing that brings me some relief seems to be "letting go"

[@Noqa101]

I suppose the answer to that question involve something concerning the connection between the cortex (especially the frontal and parietal lobes) and basal ganglia (especially the substantia nigra and nucleus accumbens); and something possibly concerning the NDMA and dopamine receptors. The DP/DR sufferers often see dramatic improvements upon treatment with amphetamine, which mainly increases the activation of dopaminergic neurons in the prefrontal cortex (which buddist theory calls samadhi). That would suggest that DP/DR might be an experience of elightenment without having neccessary samadhi, without which one cannot have equanimity. It would be interesting to see if DP/DR sufferers on amphetamine reach temporary state similiar to enlightenment or if skilled meditators fall into temporary DP/DR while under influence of antidopaminergic drugs, like typical antipsychotics.

[@jkerman5113]

Could you link some resource talking about these dramatic improvements w/ amphetamine? I have personally seen pretty middling reports for amphetamines.