Environmentalism, the Tower of Babel and the Disintegration of Culture | with Paul Kingsnorth

[@adb96san]

I’ve been slowly becoming a Christian over the last years, and are considering joining a small Greek Orthodox congregation. This video made up my mind. Going to the Divine Liturgy this Sunday.

[@triscat]

Blessings to you.

[@vanessaa2301]

i would do vespers on saturday night first. i felt better prepared.

[@brettsmith9121]

Im intrested in you. . Im christin. Why are you intrested? 😁

[@brettsmith9121]

Im a Christian from south USA

[@brettsmith9121]

Yall are lost on your fake intellectulism!

[@maryadjalal5435]

This reflects my own experience to a T. I didn't want to be a Christian, but Christ showed up and dragged me back in.

[@brucefowler2564]

Me too

[@panoramicprism]

Ssaaame!

[@triscat]

Same, times infinity.

[@97kirstiann]

Me too!!!! Can we start a club?

[@panoramicprism]

@@97kirstiann aren't we already in one? 😁

[@marcoaslan]

Pageau is on a roll. These conversations are transformative

[@PresterMike]

Indeed!

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy you will come around. Lindy effect is far superior than what is current. Older ideas that survive through time are superior to the new and short lived framings.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy if you knew what lindy effect actually means you wouldn’t respond with such modesty.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy So there, you will come around. Taleb and Pageau are similar but through different angles.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy That's another way to say, fine you win

[@hmkzosimaskrampis3185]

"You have the luxury of rejecting religion if you're in a culture which holds it up. But if you're in a culture that has nothing, or if you're in a culture that has replaced any sense of the divine, any sense of the sacred with basically consumerism and individualism, then rejecting religion is certainly not a fun piece of rebellion any more. It's like 'Oh shit, I think I just realized what that thing was for that we destroyed'". Paul Kingsnorth, 2021

[@Chamindo7]

Thanks for transcribing that brilliant quote! Ave Maria. Salve Christus Rex.

[@andreacuellar8644]

Amen

[@danieleriksen1130]

Such a good reply; I copied it and e-mailed it to some friends. (Left-Liberal friends...)

[@donn7152]

I really don't think I understand this...

[@krantzyboursiquot2647]

Awesome quote. Nietzsche’s context for saying God is dead. Jordan Peterson fleshes that out some.

[@robstevenson6432]

Amazing. "Social justice is like the Sermon on the Mount without love, forgiveness or God".

[@RodrigoMera]

Somehow christian values cannot be enforced. If they are enforced they are not christian anymore. You cannot love your enemy by force, that's tyranny, and that's not love.

[@WakingUpToday213]

A wonderful observation. :)

[@autumnangel8004]

Such widom...🌟

[@sentientflower7891]

Christianity, the religion which committed genocide on six continents.

[@maryaigler7651]

Ah, but were they really Christians?

[@supremedreamsproductionsti3600]

It’s funny what when he talks about not wanting to be a Christians. I hated Christianity and Jesus saved me while literally trying to research information to discredit Christ and the Bible but Instead I began having demonic attacks dreams and visions. Jesus appeared to me in a dream and I realized for sure Jesus is God. I hated Christianity but I wanted to love God and right there Jesus let me know that In order to love God I have to love him and the Bible. Everything just started to makes sense about this life and the world we live in after I accepted Christ he began to reveal the truth about everything I use to wonder about. The process was extremely rough but I never want to go back to the blind and spiritually dark person I use to be.

[@peterpanu9595]

That's just what I also went through!! 😅

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

Fr Seraphim Rose: "The Patron Saint of Lost Western People" ... True! I went through TM before encountering Christ, and when I began reading Fr Seraphim Rose I was able to understand my own life arc. Thank you, Paul!

[@scottabney2418]

As I sit here working on cartoons, I thank you for your content. I am 30 years old and I struggle daily with myself. Talks like these inspire me to be more than I am and to deny myself, to pickup my cross and follow. Thank you so much for all the work you have done, and continue to do.

[@johannakunze3300]

How do you do?

[@tensevo]

Scott, when we understand, that actually nobody wants to be caught up in the machinery of modernity that does not serve them, only a few, then we see everybody as an ally. To the extent we are caught up in modernity, is to the extent we have forgotten to ancient mystery and wisdom. We have even lost our sense of humor in pursuit of order.

[@BhutanBluePoppy]

@@tensevo I love this

[@wonglee9738]

I pray whoever reads this will be successful, keep fighting for success, them rich stay rich by spending like the poor and investing why the poor stay poor be spending like the rich yet not investing, Roar!! Invest, earn and be successful.

[@robertharton6237]

If you want to be successful have the mindset of the rich spend less and invest more don't give up your dreams..

[@fastlinkdeliverycompany6402]

@@robertharton6237 yes that true

[@fastlinkdeliverycompany6402]

Impressive, I realized that the secret to making a million is saving for a better investment.. I always tell myself you don’t need that new Aston Martin or that vacation in Hawaii just yet and that mindset helps me make more money investing.

[@fastlinkdeliverycompany6402]

Impressive, I realized that the secret to making a million is saving for a better investment.. I always tell myself you don’t need that new Aston Martin or that vacation in Hawaii just yet and that mindset helps me make more money investing.

[@robertharton6237]

@@fastlinkdeliverycompany6402 yes it really true to save for a better Investment.

[@julinpc]

The last section of this discussion is basically: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." --John 12:24. This is the epigraph to Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov.

[@dalenelson8254]

Thank you, Julia, for the connection with Dostoevsky. His late novels "Demons" and "Karamazov" are like two scenarios for the future. In "Demons," people have been eaten by political ideas (as we see today) and the village is in flames. In "Karamazov," the young monk and his young friends are the nucleus of a new non-monastic Christian fellowship. It really seems like it's going to have to be one or the other. But Alyosha is not a community organizer (though on a superficial level that's what he is!). He is a man of prayer who learned from the wise elder, Zosima. Too many people think Book 5 (Ivan's "Grand Inquisitor" etc.) is the heart of the book. No, it's Book 6, "The Russian Monk," the life and teaching of the elder.

[@SlimeySlimeball]

DUDE! You have been so extremely helpful in giving me a proper understanding of Christianity and these interviews are just the best! This was insanely good!!! My wife an I enjoy your content. We will both be Chrismated this Sat! From IFB to Orthodoxy! What a trip its been!

[@pontification7891]

Glory be to God!!

[@fr.raphaelkevinbarberg3787]

Many years!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@pontification7891, there’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️ There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.‬🤓 It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩

[@pontification7891]

@@TheWorldTeacher OK Great Teacher. Thank you. Now I'm awake. Thank God, I'm not a Slave any more!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@pontification7891, Good Girl! 👌

[@josephoxandale]

This guest sort of gradually won me over.

[@haydenlukas2387]

Who knew KZbin conversations could be so awesome? Thanks Jonathan. These are awesome conversations.

[@Brad-RB]

The same "extract and consume" mentality set loose on nature is also destroying relationships.

[@joev.8543]

I'm 3 mins in and screaming in agreement...

[@thegoldenthread]

This is your neighbor. Can you please stop screaming, I work a night shift.

[@alexandraelhardt9767]

My two-year-old just now: "The bushes and trees are crying 'Save us!' I'm crying too!" Palm Sunday today. I only just realized that when Jesus says the rocks and trees would cry out if the people of Jerusalem were silent, the cry would be the same "Hosanna - save us!" And they do cry out. It may be clearest when we build a church, or use mineral pigments to paint Christ on a board. Even when we don't, the rocks and trees cry "Save us!" All creation yearns for the life of Christ who made and sustains it.

[@kbeetles]

I am so encouraged by seeing you two finding each other in this space - in the image of The Garden in the midst of this God-forsaken world of our own creation! You give me so much hope - which I need as a grandma ( even a bit like an embodiment of the mythic grandma of the people)..... please keep this conversation going!

[@SteveBedford]

We've tried to create a giant machine that eats everything, but we'll be ground up in the process. Lord have mercy

[@jillbrown5175]

its a literal nothing statement. really listen to the "envro" guy. he just hates "the west" aka Whites

[@mankypancakes]

We talk about the west as a melting pot, but its more along the lines of a food processor. Its a soup vs sauce argument really

[@leondbleondb]

@@jillbrown5175 Agree. Nature worship is idolatry. He does a good job of seeming not to be an extremist anymore.

[@triscat]

@@jillbrown5175 I disagree. He hates modernity.

[@triscat]

@@leondbleondb Paul is a very newly baptized or chrismated Orthodox Christian. A little patience and humility is what I would suggest toward him.

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

Your touching on the Book of Revelation was illuminating. I have been wondering if we are in "that age" (or perhaps, "an age") where we are hearing another "voice from heaven" crying out, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues..." (Rev. 18:4). It seems to me this is the call Christ offers to those with "ears to hear " in our collapsing culture and world, and you have been discussing it!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Are you a THEIST? 🤔 If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓

[@macmudgee]

We have just tipped over from Babylon into a Beast system. Babylon is hyper license in desire and lust, the Beast is hyper oppression and tyranny. With Babylon God calls us out of her, the Beast we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the Word of our testimony.

[@jimmieoakland3843]

It's amazing how the English have produced so many literary giants who were great defenders of the Christian faith. In the 20th century, think Chesterton, Graham Greene, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Dorothy Sayers, and Evelyn Waugh. They were mostly Catholic and Kingsnorth is Orthodox, but he is following in that same tradition. I believe he will be an important voice in the years to come, and hopefully he will be joined by others.

[@antoinettekankindi6807]

And Roger Scruton who remained Anglican

[@wybuchowyukomendant]

Up to 20th century, it was extremely hard to be a western writer without being a christian, so obviously they were defending their religion

[@jonegan6807]

A good point, but technically Lewis was Irish

[@vanessaa2301]

church experience as a lecture vs. "oh, God's in the room." .. loved to hear what this man had to say.

[@bobtaylor170]

He's mistaken, though. In the beginning was the Word. All liturgy comes from the Word, or is useless at best, deceptive at worst. The Bible isn't a "moral lecture." It shows us who God is.

[@sotem3608]

@@bobtaylor170 yet God's Word isn't confined to scripture, so it's a valid point to make IF the church puts the emphasis on scripture to much. There are churches that idolise the bible over God, personally I think this goes hand in hand with sola scriptura. So I'd definitely agree with you, that the bible isn't simply a "moral lecture", unfortunately in practice a lot of churches over-emphasize the "lecture" (moral or strictly theoretical).

[@jasonsanders8091]

​@@bobtaylor170 yes but it was the church which put together the bible and side by side with scripture are the mystery of the sacraments, hymns of praise, doxology, and the Holy Spirit.

[@anniel.3396]

Excellent, thank you for this.

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

Fr. Seraphim Rose, the Patron Saint of lost western people. Very true. The Saint for the disillusioned modern materialist.

[@MarcumDavid]

Okay, I know it's me... But I (in the past) fit your description. But Fr. Seraphim Rose never did it for me at all. I've been Orthodox for 20 years. Perhaps if I had read him before becoming Orthodox?? I don't know...

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

@@MarcumDavid I read him before so that probably did make a difference. Was really into the paranormal and mysticism and didn’t know Orthodoxy was even a thing so maybe that’s why it impacted me so much.

[@A17-d4n]

@@TheDonovanMcCormick he shook the new-ageism out of me too.

[@MoreChrist]

Most interesting, thank you gentlemen. The wonderful Wendell Berry has been hitting on many of these points from a distinctly Christian perspective for many decades. Amongst the Orthodox recently, Dr Vigen Guroian and EP Bartholomew.

[@David--.]

12:33 (++) On the Tower of Babel as a means of "getting back to God". Interesting, but that's not how I read it. Read the story again, and it is about building a walled city, in which is a tower. And the name of the city *is* "Babylon" ("Babel" in Hebrew = "Babylon"). The reason for this building? To "make a name for ourselves", a phrase which elsewhere is associated with military prowess and success. And the deeper motivation for this building activity? "Lest we be scattered"-the fundamental fear (and curse) of the Hebrew Bible, the fear underneath the fear of exile. Putting it all together: this is an effort to create a secure environment BUT apart from God, found wholly in human achievement. This resonates strongly with Paul Kingsnorth's sense at 13:43 about "not trusting God". Yes, and that's the story of the "Tower of Babel", too, *rather* than getting *to* God. (FWIW)

[@christianstander5452]

Ah yes, this is my evening sorted.

[@the_artisan]

I'm one punk that became a liturgical Christian

[@bobtaylor170]

Welcome!

[@tensevo]

Have another look at the deep symbolism of the cross, and crucifixion, Christ, at the centre of the cross, pulled to the left and to the right, politically, but also, to the head, tyranny and to the feet, anarchy, He has sacrificed himself to hold the world together.

[@konterrevolutionbeginnt1457]

It'd be great if you'd interview Dr. E Michael Jones.

[@IndyDefense]

The modern world puts the Tower of Babel to shame, and Sodom and Gamorrah to shame.

[@paam1971]

Apologists like Chesterton thought 100 years ago western culture was just like Sodom. Living today in a postmodern culture, is it reasonable to call it post-Sodom times

[@IndyDefense]

@@paam1971 Can you imagine what he would think about today's culture? The poor guy would probably have a heart attack.

[@rachelparradelong]

As Solomon says there is nothing new understand the Sun, it’s not worse it’s the same as it ever was, paganism and satanism always looks the same from age to age

[@mackinm00se]

@@rachelparradelong thank you. Just because you’re living at this point doesn’t mean it’s any different than any other time. We’re reallllllly not that special.

[@brucefowler2564]

The punks are becoming liturgical Christians 😆

[@triscat]

Remember that great line from the Clash's "Death or Glory" which I won't write here.

[@brucefowler2564]

@@triscat Joe's pithy line about joining the church? Ow!

[@triscat]

@@brucefowler2564 Haha. Yeah. I made that (metaphorical) journey myself.

[@dalenelson8254]

There really was a fanzine called Death to the World from monks to punks.

[@triscat]

@@dalenelson8254 Indeed! I have visited their website on occasion. Happy Palm Sunday!

[@dann10000]

I can feel it too I follow you since 2016 but in the last couple of weeks I really binge watch your videos and I almost finished your brothers book Thank you for your work, you cannot believe how transformative this was to me. I went from panic attacks and "over-optimization" to a feeling of connection to reality and a caring for reality. Humanity suffers from a deep spiritual crisis. I mean I feel connected now, but I remember how dark and bitter and alienated I felt from life and I even think it's way worse with the younger generations. I just hope that this "pressure-cooking" of spiritual suffering leads to Christianity and not another global ideological experiment

[@rainbowparrotart]

I am stunned as I listen to this. Paul Kingsnorth tells my story! I feel so much validation and clarity.

[@yhalee345]

Thank you dear saints for making it clear how blessed we are to be adopted as children of God!!! All glory to Father God, our High Priest THE LORD JESUS, our Saviour, and the ever present help of the Holy Spirit!!!!

[@triscat]

Welcome, Mr. Kingsnorth. May this Fellowship blossom!

[@jamememes4114]

Paul is right. Most crisis in the modern world are not political, not technological, and not economic, but ethical, and ultimately spiritual, in nature.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna I mean: I live in the third world, you know. Lived on the streets for some time, myself. And I stick to my words: most corruption, violence, cynicism towards authority, poverty, and crime (the staple products of this side of the planet) can be traced back to people forgetting the ethical requirements to belong to the Christian world.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna sure thing, bucko (: Now go out there and live righteously - which should not be mistaken with "self-righteously". I will be cheering on you.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna sounds like an excuse to me, but whatever gets you going, good human.

[@TheMhouk2]

@Kurapika Giovanna anarchism is bankrupt

[@julinpc]

I read the Bible and I've read a few books by Kierkegaard (Works of Love and Training in Christianity) but I'd been wondering what else to read, especially from an Orthodox perspective. Thank you for an answer, Jonathan. Just ordered Philokalia, Volume 1.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

Listen to the Lord of Spirits podcast, its by friends of Pageau and very good for understanding the Orthodoxy perspective

[@brizbizel]

Since you mentioned Kierkegaard why not try Staniloae's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" ?

[@ALLHEART_]

@@universalflamethrower6342 And also one of the priests from that podcast, Dr. Fr. Stephen De Young, has a great podcast or two for Orthodox biblical exegesis, namely the Whole Counsel of God.

[@ALLHEART_]

I recommend you check out *Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes* by Fr. John Meyendorff. It's one of the best over all summaries. Also, some good basic patristic works Jonathan has recommended are the Life of Moses by St. Gregory of Nyssa and Hymns on Paradise by St. Ephrem the Syrian. There's also classic stuff like On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius. God bless your journey into Orthodoxy.

[@ALLHEART_]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Catechetical Lectures, too.

[@tensevo]

I've honestly started to see this as the real deal, and the quest for money, power, and authority, a kind of side hustle.

[@tensevo]

As a side note, I think it is worth mentioning that I have always seen money (trade and commerce), as an antidote to war. As eluded to, we have an inbuilt tendency to religion, sacrifice, but we also have a built in tendency towards competition and war, and that the money game was always a better alternative to war games.

[@jamesgardner3321]

JESUS "came and "dragged me to HIM" also. The Desert Fathers helped me to walk in the right places... as a trained philosopher I am now living a relatively peaceful life.

[@viktoriaregis6645]

It is almost five in the morning in Sweden. U need to wake up in a few hours, and I been stucked. I have Studied religion, Christianity and the Bible for many years, but I've never heard something like this. Such a depth still very rational and spiritual the same time. I dit get a new mindblowing psychological interpretation of the Biblical stories from Jordan Peterson ( he lead me here) but from here I really get challenged. It's all a new way to look at Christianity, but completely rational. It is practical and it somehow ties everything, every aspect of humanity together. And every time I start to watch I have no clue of were it is going.

[@symbolicmemez]

Another absolute banger. Jonathan pumping out insanely fascinating interviews one after another 🦞

[@elektrotehnik94]

Regarding Buddhism & Hinduism, regarding receiving transforming wisdom through meditation (which is where I found the most wisdom in those traditions, likely not the only place/ way to find that wisdom there ^^); I've found their ways have some benefits & some faults: 1.) Good side --> These religions are largely experiential, not word-based; in that sense, in those traditions, what God is cannot be really corrupted in the same way as Christianity could corrupt itself. As in; words can easily be corrupted, the experience of God's Grace cannot be influenced by us. These religions are also incredibly powerful at disarming/ dissolving? ego, without needing to convince a person to believe anything, really. It is very potent for semi-stubborn atheist ego-filled Westeners such as I was ^^. 2.) Bad side --> They are largely not word-based; in that sense, it's hard/ confusing to get a good grasp of how to live your life once faced with the experience of the Glory of God. You also kind of don't have any word-based tools to convey what God is to another person... even though I don't find it clear that any religion lets you describe the essence of God to another human with words anyway. I find it that (maybe) your own transformation (caused by being in contact with God) is the only thing that can communicate the Glory of God to another human anyway. As in; it's less about the words themselves, more about what is indwelling the person saying the words while he is saying them. It also seems harder to maintain a social hierarchy with this kind of experiencing God & integrating the teachings; In most Hindu & Buddhist teachings you require a mentor of sorts to help you on your path, to help you keep your path straight & be your guide. Doing it without a mentor is not encouraged, but not forbidden. Just my 2 cents for anyone not having any grasp on the rough scaffolding of what is a part of Eastern spirituality & why people might go there.

[@ladyfaye8248]

If I can find a well written, updated BIBLE, I will read it, which I have never done in nearly 70 years, but been listening to Jordon Peterson a lot, and now Paul Kingsnorth, and it seems I am being shown the path.

[@HomesteadForALiving]

Permaculture solves the environmental issues with humanity presented as the solution rather than just the problem.

[@taranmurray7046]

I can see that I am not the first to say this, but again, this is my experience exactly. I was seeking constantly, and once I understood what Christ meant, I was dragged in kicking and screaming. As Mr. Kingsnorth says "Right, so what are you supposed to do with that information?". That was exactly it. I find great relief in this since I suspect this is a wave washing across our culture. May the seeds be fruitful!

[@elektrotehnik94]

It's funny how I find myself being dragged, kicking and screaming right now ^^ Maybe not the same, but very clearly similar, at the same time ^^

[@taranmurray7046]

@@elektrotehnik94 I feel for ya!

[@elektrotehnik94]

@@taranmurray7046 No worries; I welcome the change :D

[@mayormccheese6171]

I know just what he means. Here in Australia we have the typical, suburban posturing environmentalist, who will complain about climate change and fossil fuels all day, but then chop down every tree on a property to build units, and would rather have a double-garage than a garden.

[@chriswalth]

Guys, fantastic conversation! This brings together so many issues I have been dealing with recently, without being able to see the connections. Please continue this conversation soon!!

[@ladyfaye8248]

Just discovered that 'Yahweh' is God's personal name which includes both female and male meaning; 'Yah' is the female and 'Weh' the male. Yes, this is off topic here...but is it? Suddenly, I realised there must be a very deep juxtaposition between God's name and the massive gender identity problem the world is facing. God's apparent gender has been the prime reason why I have resisted joining any religion thus far, as i understood that God was recognised as male. But now, I will refer to God by name, as Yahweh. My problem is solved. Maybe millions of others would find the same.

[@brendonlake1522]

That comment from Jonathan about star trek being the thing new Atheists promised us and what we got was 'something darker' is very telling. People complain that the recent star trek movies are dark & the DC comics movies aren't like the shiny, bright Christopher Reeve superman movies but they don't seem to realize is that art imitates life and these movies are a mirror of the culture now.

[@tiramboelaan]

He says the Hollywood movies are basically the resurrection story. Possibly, but he is wrong in saying that the sacrifice and resurrection story originated with christ. In fact, the story was taken over by christianity from older pagan cultures where the *scapegoat* was sacrificed for the good of the community - and after that a new scapegoat-king was installed. The interviewer says another thing: the atheists/modernists took away the christian myth but didn't replace it with anything worthwhile. This is true. But. Just because humans need or want a good story, doesn't mean that there actually is one! And certainly, one shouldn't be made up just because one is needed.

[@GiniaMarie1]

Brilliant, perhaps even genius! Min.20:29 it is God who works in us both to Will and to do of his good pleasure. Christianity is not at all what people think it is on so many levels! It is certainly not an easy believe-ism path to walk. And they are not called the fires of affliction for nothing. It is not what you are, but what you trust God to do, that saves you. And to the degree that you trust God to save you, you will be saved. But he has given us a psychological law to cushion the inevitable blows of life. As you sow, so shall you reap.” It is the law of like begets like. Cosmic seed: Christ, The pattern is buried and will unfold in every man (God became man that man may become God). Things are most of the time not at all what they seem to be. 31:18 something's calling! Oh Yes: Eccl.3 v 11b, ...Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. Study this verse out until you find the stripling ( tis a mystery) that Lad is buried in man. There is no replacement! Ah, I agree with the "woke" comments, it's a dangerous game, that is very easily misconstrued and made out to be something it's not, they often miss the pattern. Christ is the solution and Jesus Christ, the pattern man is within 💛 look within. Self sacrifice, yes! With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. It is finished. Fatherhood of God Brotherhood of man Life Everlasting God bless you both, and THANK YOU for sharing all this! I'm learning so much!!!

[@meridiancondos4898]

Every culture always talked about the tree of life in the middle of the garden and in a sense the tree of life is each of us and the wall around the city is our aura we are all Trees in the garden and we need to give our light and life to one another so that we can create this paradise together. It's awesome to talk about this stuff but right action is the only way to fix any of these problems

[@tazmiller7490]

Isn’t ‘’Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself’’ very different from ‘’losing the self’’?I think it is a crucial difference between zen, and other oriental practices, and it applies to the deeper truth of faith. Of course before that it says that you should love God above all else. I think that if you take the self away you might later take the neighbor away and then finally God as a result.

[@stefanlouw6395]

I keep finding myeslf returning to this talk again and again...

[@sebastienberger1112]

This conversation was very helpful for me, thank you. I also just ordered one of Paul's novel. I can't wait to plunge in it ! Thank you for enabling me to discover Paul and his work.

[@aurelius1964]

What a fantastic interview. Thank you so much. This has been a tough Lent for me and this is a great addition to the last few days.

[@pointofrevelation]

Helloooo!! We Anglicans have strong liturgical practices, and have preserved some if not all of the ancient catholic practice of the pre Reformation English church.

[@bobtaylor170]

Yes, and so have orthodox Lutherans and other orthodox Reformed groups.

[@GiniaMarie1]

Self sacrifice,Yes! It all begins with the self it is self we must change first 💛 and I truly hope the two of you will get together and podcast again soon. Thank You both. Now, I have to go back to the beginning to find your guest's name, it's embarrassing. 🤦

[@joshuadonahue5871]

Jonathan have you been reading Rene Girard? You threw away some lines in this conversation that reminded me strongly of him. Fascinating guest too; great talk!

[@autumnangel8004]

The best discussion I have heard in years!!! Thank you both. 🙏

[@annawray2220]

Ah ha! You two meet! Excited for this one

[@annahatke2455]

My thoughts exactly!

[@zatoichi1]

"Western Christianity didn't have any ritual" 😄 So... centuries of the Latin Mass?

[@condelevante4]

I think he was referring to his Protestant experience.

[@Quantum1008]

Yes. Often when Jonathan talks about the anemic, over simplistic, logical religion of the West, he seems to mean evangelicalism. But, unfortunately, the Novos Ordo Mass has protestantized the average Roman Rite Liturgy. The traditional Roman Rite is extremely symbolic and mystical. Let us pray that the Latin Church can return to Tradition.

[@SB_McCollum]

We would have always ended up here, getting it "right" wasn't within our skill set. That's part of God's glory, He always knew what sludge we are and demonstrating the depth and range of His power IS the plan, and all of creation will see it.

[@hglundahl]

12:55 _They just came out of a Flood._ Now, 350 years after the Flood Noah died, and following Roman Martyrology which has a LXX without the second Cainan like chronology between Flood and Abraham, for Christmas day, this is where I would put, while you might with LXX with II Cainan put somewhat later the beginning of Babel, _which I take to be - just after Younger Dryas, when quite a lot of coastland has gone down after the Ice Age._ Avoiding the Flood? More like panicking God was breaking His promise, which He wasn't, or thinking Noah had got it wrong (Nimrod's gramp and uncle had been involved in discrecditing Noah a bit).

[@greatmomentsofopera7170]

Great conversation. Much to think about and agree with. I would just caveat the claim that traditional societies were in harmony with nature - Britain and much of Europe used to be almost entirely forested and were deforested millennia before modernity. Additionally the large animals were all killed in this era too.

[@paulreadsthebible6584]

Amen, it's a struggle but so is life if you don't have Christ. Be blessed all. And praying for our enemies is tough. I always keep telling myself that these days. As I see 99.99% of politicians as my enemies. Thank God for Jesus Christ. Peace all.

[@apairofbrowneyes77]

I understand the focus both Mr. Kingsnorth and Mr. Pageau put on the notion of self-sacrifice as a concept and practice that allows for the return of a hedonistic and self-centered society to a more ethical dharma, to a way of life that is more virtuous and respectful of life, our own and others'. I however, as a naturopath and as a human really, shiver slightly when I hear the expression self-denial and it is exactly that which for me stands in the way of surrendering to organised religion. I understand self-sacrifice more as an embodiement of limits that the world offers in order to not become a voracious (indeed one is only eternaly voracious if one is never satisfied or content) and selfish individual. I comprehend and accept that the point of life is not the pursuit of (my) happiness but really the maintenance of balance, of inner and outer peace. On this perspective, I can only understand a notion of self-sacrifice if that is balanced out not with self-indulgence but with self-care. The denial of the self and the neverending appeal for sacrifice in the name of God, namely of the poor and the meek, with the promise that even if life on Earth was miserable with poverty, disease, famine, heaven would compensate for all of that. In fact the manipulative gaslighting and hipocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church has always been the major demotivator and cause for disilusion and loss of faith. The Reformation was in fact a reaction to such corruption and shameful behaviour. So self-denial is tricky when it isn't softened with love and understanding and care for one's own inner being, which no doubt is an interbeing but is still a being both individual and collective, human and divine. I believe that what can be chipped off or denied is more the self-supremacy or centralness, not so much the self. I often think of this balancing act between the boundaries of self and collective with the analogy of corals (any fellow marine biologists out there?). Corals are neither entirely individuals nor collective, they are colonial, communal organisms. Within those spectacular colorful structures inhabit tens or hundreds of individuals (that are not all alike, there are differences in functions, forms, behaviours and choices between individuals) that live in a way of true interdependence, where each contributes to the all AND the all sustains each individual. There are certainly limitations and constraints to each small individual cnidaria polip, but it is also sustained in its individuality and uniqueness by the whole of the colony. I believe that this kind of sociocracy could work with humans, it has in Old Europe, several millenia before the Antiquity civilizations, it still works in many indigenous and traditional human populations and I dream of living in one, some day. Thank you for the inspiration and comfort you provide with your work and your words.

[@evielennard9017]

Beautifully said

[@CanoeToNewOrleans]

I was raised Catholic. But my faith didn't survive university. Rationality killed the belief of a man in the clouds. Time passed and I realized that Christianity has more to offer than just God, as strange as that may sound. Christianity can be about devotion to God, but it can also be a code or a philosophy to govern yourself and to create community. In that sense, religion is rational.

[@christophersnedeker]

The idea of God is more than just a man in the clouds.

[@prayingthroughcinema]

In our current moment, to varying degrees of severity, we’re all suffering through some version of severe disruption. Many - too many - are struggling with devastating consequences to their health or livelihoods. Yet hardship has a powerful way to unlock a drive for a better life and a better world. This pandemic we’re going through… might be the best thing that has happened to us, as we are forced to re-evaluate pretty much everything. Amidst this dark moment, our yearning for a new world has become enflamed like a raging global firestorm. An impulse for ‘deep reset’ has gripped the planet. This impulse for a restored world can manifest in anger, despair, or brave resolve. But how can we find an optimal grip on this potent ‘impulse for hope’ and avoid self-deception? Like all cultures before us, when our back is against the wall and dread drives our hope-filled visions to fix this mess, the cultivation of wisdom goes out the door. WA De Klerk: a South African writer, philosopher, and outspoken critic of the Utopian Apartheid regime stated in the 1950s: ‘Hell is the heavens we build for ourselves. His prophetic warning has gripped me to explore our drive for ‘heaven on earth’ in our current day and age. While looking into this ‘Hijacking of Heaven’ mode being - we must explore how we can avoid following yellow brick roads that don’t deliver heaven on earth, but hell on earth. We have a well-intended thrust towards healing from our sufferings. A need for wholeness and justice is our heavenly impulse - essential for the improvement of the human condition. It’s the jet engine behind our sense of progress. But if used wrongly, it tends to swing into deadly corruption that destroys its initial noble potency. It can be compared to a ‘boomerang’ tumble-effect: Driven by dread, we reach for too high heavens, only for it to swing back at us in hell-ish form. In myth we see this pattern all over the place: Icarus flies too close to the sun, only for his wings to melt as he tumbles down earth. Jack climbs up the beanstalk to get the golden goose above the clouds, only to be chased back down by the giant. Sisyphus rolls an immense boulder to the top of a hill only for it to roll down every time it reaches the top. The people build the tower of Babel to reach heaven only to scatter everyone into different languages across the face of the earth. In reality, we see this happening when good ideas as finite realities become elevated to the rank of ultimacy. We start to possess unthinking, totalizing attachments to these ‘lower’ good things without a transcendent center. In doing this we strip away the noble purposes behind these ideas and our virtues become twisted into innumerable empty desires. These can be any objects of desire, sacred values, and ideals. Like a meta-mind virus, the infection starts on an individual level - validation, careerism, materialism etc.. It scales up to the societal level - nationalism, equality, liberal democracy etc. It moves up to the spiritual level - religious fundamentalism, fringe spirituality groups, suicide bombers etc. Often these narratives and ideals function as myth that can be equated to passions, idols, ideologies, or utopias. As an umbrella term, I call it ‘the Idea’ with a capital I. The Idea is the finely crafted, dazzling misrepresentation of reality. Sure, the Idea sometimes reflects a portion of truth but on the whole, it distorts. It's this deadly distortion of reality that causes the Idea’s hell-raising boomerang backlash effect. Whatever our future ‘hangs on’ is our Idea to live out our fantasies of control or to ‘hijack Heaven’. Within the attention hierarchy, how can we re-order our desires for heaven to the highest good without falling into the deadly trap of the Idea? To confront the ‘Hijacking of Heaven’ will be a sobering call for cognitive and spiritual stability. How do we avoid self-deception, missing the mark, and falling into deadly utopian traps as we enter this new age? Are there practical ways to regain a perpetual, infinite openness and adopt an iconic vision as opposed to an idolatrous vision? With idolatrous vision, we capture it, contain it, hoard it, and it perishes in a world that has become opaque. With iconic vision, our disposition is towards the transcendent infinite behind all things and in this way, the entire world becomes translucent with higher meaning. No object or value becomes an end itself anymore. By taking a hard look at our holy cows and our attempts to force heaven’s hand, mabey we can rediscover the symbolic meaning of what it means to properly order reality as mediators between heaven and earth. Mabey, we’ll get a glimpse of what paradise was always intended to be about.

[@lorraine5800]

Well said. Thank you for including that quote from De Klerk (I wasn’t familiar with him before), it is a razor-sharp statement.

[@aprboone1]

Boom. And i'm a practicing, devout Catholic .man ..this hit me over the head. My mind and heart are so much clearer. Carry the cross better and higher...

[@seanmcgabriel207]

I am so delighted Paul Kingsnorth has become a professed Eastern Orthodox Christian!

[@vsstdtbs3705]

Soon he will believe in superman and allah, other made-up stories.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

Sacrifice of the individual for the betterment of the whole, you say?? Sounds like bloody collectivist postmodern cultural neoMarxism to me, bucko! In all seriousness I love this message and the continued discussion of these themes; will definitely check out more of Paul's work as it reminds me of Arne Naess' Deep Ecology in a way, which is something I've been harping about for a while now. Can someone tell me if Eastern Orthodox is the same as Greek Orthodox?? In the UK we seem to have the former and not the latter, at least near me...

[@nikola9348]

Yes, the Orthodox Church is often referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Greek/Russian/Serbian/Romanian/Bulgarian/Antiochian etc Orthodox are simply the autocephalous (self-governing) units. Outside of the East these self-governing units have overlapping jurisdictions currently. In the UK the most prominent jurisdictions are the Greek, Russian and Antiochian ones.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

@@nikola9348 thanks so much :)

[@ladyfaye8248]

I feel much more in tune with Paul now, than when I watched his video 'can humanity save the world?'

[@vidaripollen]

Non abhramic traditions r more connected being nature worshipping cultures

[@augenblik9016]

This is so cool. I read Kingsnorth's One No Many Yesses back when I was a teen. Great to see him here with Jonathan.

[@rabbitholehomes]

I agree, we're not getting Star Trek. It's more like Babylon 5

[@rachelparradelong]

I have starting going to a Confessional Lutheran Church which is Liturgical (or divine service ) , I totally agree with the ritual side of church and not getting a lecture , and also a liturgy makes the service about Christ and not us, and the minister can not become a demagogue. There is a great historical book called The Democratization of American Christianity, there is so much that has gone wrong in the church in just 200 years.

[@StephenGrew]

Yes being fully Alive in our landscape, (England for me) whether by the sea or inland, being as aware as possible of everything and making a balance between all the various potentials, negative and positive Can make for a deeper meaning with the Mystery.

[@garrywindshield1]

Thank you for introducing us to Paul. Very interesting conversation indeed

[@mIRI567]

About the environmental problem, there are two perspectives that are currently emerging: First is obviously about us being too consumerist and destroying the biomes , where man has no place in nature anymore. The second one is seemingly emerging as a response to the first. Deification of nature, the mother earth cult. Where man is presented as a filthy creature that has no business interacting with earth and dwelling in sacred “forest” so to speak. Cue in all the reservations and the call to preserving “virginal” nature and the radicalisation of the green movement. The second narrative is presented as a “solution” to the first problem, but in fact is false. Like in the first, there is no place for man in nature, rendering him fully dependent on the system and synthetic supplicants. The true solution is the return to the Garden of Eden, where Adam walks with God, where everything is in tune and man was given stewardship over nature and cares for it as a gardener and in turn the environment serves man. Everything is in accordance with God and His will and thus truly functioning.

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

The Sacrifice of Christ is really presented in a fresh and profound way by Hieromonk Damascene in Christ the Eternal Tao. His section in that book, "The Gospel According to Lao Tsu" is transformative. This book resonates powerfully with the teaching of St Silouan, Elder Sophrony and Fr Zacharias Zacharou on Christ "inverting the pyramid," placing himself at the very bottom of the pyramid. He dies raised up on the cross, but in doing so he goes to the lowest place.

[@mondopinion3777]

That is in Rene Girard's books too. And it is in Acts 17:6 -- an enraged accusation hurled against the evangelists.

[@panoramicprism]

So wild that my priest talked to me about Paul Kingsnorth a few weeks ago and I'm so into the symbolic world. Then, this happens! Everything is falling into place. Yessss!

[@tamaramiller4513]

If you haven't already, you should look into the mouse utopua project. It's absolutely fascinating.

[@notamused3715]

This is fascinating. I live in Ireland too and am a reverted Catholic but increasingly disappointed and even distressed with the way the Church authorities are leading us,or rather, filing in leading us, especially over abortion and this covid con-job. I still believe in the Faith though and it's true that Christianity is still very much a part of our landscape, what with the shrines, holy wells and Mass rocks. I think that despite their all the hideous things that have happened here in recent years, they will never totally succeed in driving Christ nor His Mother out of Ireland, nor out of every single last one of our hearts! God bless and keep ye both and all here!

[@kanegallagher9533]

The Wake is a real work of art. He’s an impressive writer. It struck a cord in me and was so different than anything I’ve read before, yet puts to words feelings we all have.

[@EMO_alpha]

Atleast this guy knows his enviromentalism is totally friggin religious.

[@hglundahl]

12:46 Actually, it does not say "if we build it high enough" ... and we have seen towers raised at Cape Canaveral and at Bajkonur of which only the top has reached into space, they are called "three step rockets".

[@benrobin111]

Any plans for more conversations with Kingsnorth? This was great

[@MeShellMaBelle]

Awesome conversation! I feel like I can use this as a bridge. I hope you have more. And I hope let you do collaborate. Build and we will come! I would go to work for you! :) thank you! Onward and upward!

[@burstangel]

I remember my Bible had a picture of the flood with a unicorn that was left behind ... I thought as a kid, did God kill the unicorn? I was so hurt and angry, Christian's killed magic!!! That was my thought process at the time, lol. It was a protestant children's Bible.

[@andimom2010]

This was a great way to enjoy my lunch break!! Ty.

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

Normally I find myself in knots with intellectual babble during most of Pageaus interviews. However, this one is clear and concise. Nice 👍🏼

[@jjasmin1000]

This was a great and revitalizing talk. Probably one of the best I've seen from you Jonathan

[@william_02]

Jonathan, you should also talk to Martin Shaw!

[@themightyasterix5365]

Bless ur work bro, loving the content!

[@boethius31415]

I just hope that those who are strongly connected to Social Justice find their way into what Pageau refers to as the "strange movement" taking place in our culture. That's how I've found my way here, and this is a much more satisfying path to walk than its self-righteous secular alternative.

[@323liska]

I'm currently at 44 minutes 35 seconds thank you for this both of you. You are summarizing and echoing back many thoughts and feelings that I've had about my Christianity since I was a boy.

[@ai5837]

This might be the most brilliant conversation on yt. They're talking about the weightiest things there are and are saying very heavy things with such lightness that it's just a joy :) I died laughing a few times: 1. "Give all my money away? What are you talking about?!" 2. "Eat flesh, drink blood? That's disgusting!" and 3. (the greatest one) "What kind of God gets himself killed??" Uhh... again... cry-laughing. The delivery! Pefect. I don't watch sitcoms, but I think I'd enjoy Paul's. The man is hilarious. And Jonathan... being Jonathan... just the greatest coversation ever :) So happy now ^^

[@auk7447]

Enjoyed this - I think when Paul talks about Western Christianity in fact this is probably more correctly called Protestantism.

[@maximilianosantiago]

So insightful conversation!

[@thereccereport1172]

I agree that we are in a Tower of Babel Moment. See Dr. Joseph p Farrell's book, "The Tower of Babel Moment".