EP. 134 - Commander Bans & Legacy Format Panel | The Eternal Glory Podcast

Co-hosted by Legacy experts and KZbin creators Brian Coval (BoshNRoll), Bryant Cook (The EPIC Storm), and Phil Gallagher (ThrabenU), Eternal Glory is a Magic: The Gathering Podcast that focuses on Legacy and other non-rotating constructed formats.
Launched in March of 2019, Eternal Glory has kept a steady hand on the pulse of Legacy. Exploring new set releases, ban list updates, metagame changes, hot new tech, and providing even hotter takes!
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[@jeromelim2928]

Praying for Phil and others affected by the hurricane

[@IeuroI]

he posted an update vid several hours ago now saying things are moderately stable for him finally. but, the entire state is going to be recovering from this for a long, long time

[@jeromelim2928]

@@IeuroIthank you..i watched his video too..glad to know he's doing ok

[@jadegrace1312]

Bryant idk if you just don't play casual commander, but the part about Dockside not being good in and not seeing play in casual commander is completely incorrect on both fronts. Since it's release it's been bannably strong in casual, and it's only gotten stronger over time through the proliferation of artifact tokens.

[@Izamathanos]

41:45 I just wish they did more universe's within so I wasn't running weird shit from random IP in my personal decks.

[@randpummill4233]

The argument that people lost value due to the bans is a misunderstanding. No one lost money or value due to the bans (excepting large card trading orgs, of course). They may have lost potential value, but there's a big difference between actual value and potential value. For most people, the value was lost when they bought the card. And since they didn't have any intention of selling it, there was only minimal potential value in the card anyway. At the end of the day, we're all just buying expensive game pieces that we think have value due to a common delusion. The bans just broke a little part of that delusion.

[@henryhammer6894]

While potential value may not seem like money to you, to our society it is the same thing. When we talk about those with the largest net worth, it’s not those with the most in their bank account, it’s those who own the most stock of companies that societies considers worth money. If I have an item that u could sell for $100 and now I can only sell it for $10, I have lost 90 dollars.

[@dizlee-me5jg]

@theeternalglorypodcast team... did you remove EGP from Spotify? I'm in APAC region and it's disappeared off my podcast list....

[@asiniel23216]

When I look it up it says its banned in my region.

[@brandonguffey5959]

Wizards shouldnt have made pushed targeted bull crap like jeweled lotus in the first place.

[@brandonguffey5959]

Everything is commander now is effing up the balance of the game.

[@BigHit9922]

Fully agree. What a surprise that a literal black lotus turns out to be too strong

[@brandonguffey5959]

Dockside did see play at lower power tables. Every deck in the gamemplays incidental artifacts. Mana crypt happens more and more often in casual as it gets repronted more and more. Nadu wasn't banned on power, it was banned because playing against non detirministic combos that take 200 game actions to resoove is mega boring pain.

[@YaRr1707]

I agree, it's very confusing to me that people don't get that Mana Crypt getting reprinted was part of the problem, Mana Crypts printings were: Harper Books, Kalendesh Masterpiece, Judge Reward, and then in Eternal Masters. All of these printings were rare enough. Then they printed it in Double masters, again another premium set, then they put it into LCI people could randomly open it from a Draft/Set pack and now it went from a card that you had to go out of the way to buy a Premium one off printing or a Premium masters set, putting it as a lottery but more common than a masterpiece led to more mana crypts trickling down, which was the problem

[@danhick3150]

​@@YaRr1707I think depicting reprinting as "the problem" maybe taking a step too far, it was more so that these incredibly powerful cards appealed to a casual audience. Other notable "broken" acceleration such as mana vault exist which sees almost 0 casual play in spite of similar printings. The existence of cards like this practically proves that it's the fundamental design that's the problem not so much the rarity.

[@YaRr1707]

@@danhick3150 Mana vault is also A LOT worse than Mana Crypt (It might even arguably worse than Dark ritual in a black deck) and it's last printing was in double masters 2022, and before that it was in Ultimate masters, its been relegated to masters sets instead of appearing in random standard legal sets (Although this may change)

[@brandonguffey5959]

People were NOT going "haha thats what you get for spending money on cards" people WERE givng people a hard time for trying to be stonk bros and expecting their collection to only gain value.

[@BoshNRoll]

Both things were happening. "LOL JUST PROXY EVERYTHING!" was a common response to people upset about the bans.

[@brushwagg7735]

I mean a lot of people were saying a lot of wild stuff. I heard some goobers saying it was the evil RC doing a pump and dump. People were getting weird.

[@GuyIncognito575]

The 'accumulation' discussion was very familiar. I had a moment of clarity a long time ago and asked myself what I was doing. I decided to only have a max of four of any printing of a card, and I sleeve all of my decks with the same color and type of sleeve to facilitate swapping things in and out. I wish I could say I used the money for something other than more Magic cards!

[@CRIMS0N_KING]

I actually strongly disagree. I think the bans are great for the health of the format. In general Rule Zero doesn't really work unless you have a solid playgroup. I honestly think more bans would be great but again the toxicity will prevent more from happening

[@boosterblader3209]

One has to wonder how many of the people sending death threats were the same people screaming to abolish the Reserve List

[@MultiGameFreaker]

I think its much more likely that most of the people who sent those threats are very pro-RL

[@boosterblader3209]

@@MultiGameFreaker I tend to think the pro-RL crowd is way less online and less likely to be playing casual commander. Could be wrong.

[@xxinfinity00]

Rule 0 is and always was a de facto justification for inaction on the banlist. Make 2 formats. Commander with a banlist determined by official tournament meta. And EDH where there is no banlist but what you agree to with the other players at your kitchen table.

[@hoojchoons6168]

This didn’t show up in my podcast feed, only on KZbin

[@mattrowan5834]

We know BoshNRoll's inside source is Richard Garfield, PhD because he is so in tune with how Dr Garfield intends for this game to be played. Clearly they talk regularly.

[@johannesblank1552]

13:08 I think one could easily have a different perspective here and compare it to the banning of Un- cards (in particualar Sticker Goblin) in Legacy. Just realizing that the design and implementation into a format went too far and belatedly correcting it. Mana Crypt probably should've been banned when the format was much younger, and Gilded Lotus should never have been printed.

[@DoppelgangerIsI]

"Them making money makes Magic better" the entire FIRE era had proven the exact opposite. Based on WHAT would anyone believe this?

[@KingAriston]

I really hate the idea that "Magic is for everyone" means "undermining the coherence of the game as its own thing to turn it into a generic geek culture product"

[@Uri6060]

If dockside wasnt a 50+$ card, I bet it woulda seen play more in casual. You can see mana crypt in casual sometimes when some people coping really card, and theres enough artifact ramp with Arcane Signet, Chromatic Lantern, etc in casual. And while I dont think the 1% people who throw cards that shouldnt be in casual, into casual. Buut at the same time if they reprinted it in a Special Guest slot or something, then it definitely would as said by BoshnRoll, likely see play in casual when someone just opens it. Like when mana crypt got printed in ixalan and just saw a good bit of extra play for a bit.

[@Uri6060]

I would be super interested tho in them looking back on stuff like Jeweled Lotus, Dockside, Mana Crypt, Braids, Erayo, Panoptic Mirror when they release their commander like tiering system thing since then they sorta invalidate the idea of "Banned due to casual" I sorta hope the cards from this ban dont come back, cuz the cedh decks I want to play dont get the best value out of these cards compared to the more meta decks. But I always complained about these cards, like legacy players complaining about daze/wasteland. You never actually expect it to go. (Also I would looove there being a 4.5 tier thats basically pokemon ubers which I feel like a lot of people are looking for when this comes for Paradox Engine, and Jeweled Lotus without inviting the Mox would be my ideal version atleast)

[@SpitePlays]

Hope Phil is doing ok! Awesome pod as always.

[@laurelkeeper]

Phil posted a supporters-only video recently (not sure if it's out to the general public as of yet)-upshot of it is that he had a little bit of a rough time, but he's doing fine now, just waiting for the internet.

[@treycuret]

As someone who put thousands of dollars into MtG aa a broke college student, I realized as soon as I had $3k in a backpack that this "escape hatch" idea was pretty dumb because I didn't apply the logic to any of my other purchases. If I did, they weren't as flimsy and as in-flux as Magic cards. I never purchased a video game or dvd expecting to sell it back for more than a few dollars (god forbid make money on it). I purchased a Nintendo DS knowing it would be worth less in the future. These things don't even take a beating and are magnitudes more popular than MtG and they were a 90% sunk cost in my mind because they were a hobby I enjoyed. I just can't really imagine viewing a single card amongst thousands which are constantly reprinted or rotating that I also carry in a backpack into crowded areas and physically manipulate every single week hundreds of times as a rip cord. I also can't imagine sitting on thousands of dollars of video games that I don't play in the off chance I might want to play them and expecting them to hold their value. Perhaps I'm just not a collector. I buy expensive cards I like (just spent nearly $200 buying promo versions of DSK cards) but I have never thought to myself that they were more than statement pieces that only held value to me.

[@tellable9425]

I think the consumer confidence point is strange from you guys. You play 60 card formats. People are upset because they lost value from their crypt and lotus etc, I do feel bad for those people, Im not praying on their downfall (unless they're finance bros, dont play just speculate etc, and I owned these cards too btw) but...okay? Welcome to the NFL rookie. You buy into caw blade in 2011, you buy a playset of stoneforges for 100 bucks and a playset of JTMS for 400. Next week it gets banned out from under you, tough, welcome to playing magic.Would you argue these were bad bans because "what about the consumer confidence?" "We have to protect the value of peoples collections" No, not at all, we say "the deck was too powerful, standard is better off without it". And is this drama going to happen again with the one ring? Can we no longer ban expensive cards because weirdos on the internet are going to threaten someone?

[@brandonguffey5959]

Sigh....the advertising and printing of jeweled lotus and mana crypt despite being warned the card is going to be banned is because these sets arw designed and begin production *multiple* years in advance. They couldn't just reach out and pluck the cards out of packs.

[@jtyree0226]

We know that. It’s not the point. Doesn’t change the timeline between the wotc and CAG

[@henryhammer6894]

It’s possible to criticize how a situation unfolded without being able to offer an alternative, better way to have done it. That’s life sometimes

[@brushwagg7735]

I’ve never been enfranchised in my life!

[@kylejoly577]

The point about the Festival-In-A-Box pack dump is really key. An unabashed middle finger to consumers. 'Silence - and prepare to buy packs with 4 versions of Mana Vault'

[@jeffwren7815]

"Thraben WHO??!?" would have been the perfect time to just end the episode out of nowhere.

[@jessoftherocks]

i wasnt affected by a huuricane per say but i lost all of my alpha,beta,legends,antiquities, up to mirrodin in a flood in my hometown, lost alpha moxes, beta moxes, complete set of arabian nights and all i mentioned, six feet of water in my basement. cards complete mush. i think about it from time to time and just sob how much i lost in todays value.

[@Olivia-ev9hk]

People got upset that the cards were unique in an expensive limited purchase option

[@Dhips.]

I tolerate Universes Beyond. I don't get mad about it but I will laugh that a commander pod can look like the Ultimate Showdown. Godzilla, Megatron, Chun Li, The Mothman , Rick Grimes, Trazyn the Infinite and Tom Bombadil are not things I thought I'd see all on a single table, but here we are.

[@NickAlsup]

Snuff outs like 6 bucks now Bryant guess your not so enfranchised s/

[@maestrosmith55]

I think banning Mana Crypt was LOOOONG overdue. If the OG moxen are banned then Mana Crypt ABSOLUTELY needs to be banned since it is just better than those cards in cEDH.

[@stormsand9]

6:29

[@brandonguffey5959]

Consumer confidence in a trading card game shouldnt be based on peopels ability to make money off the game pieces in a pseudo stock market.

[@brushwagg7735]

You say that but the secondary market is the brick and mortar that holds up most LGSs.

[@brandonguffey5959]

@@brushwagg7735 the margin on an expensive single is the same as the margin on a cheap single my man. Yes it's unfortunate that some shops lost value on those cards, and out of any affected group it's them I feel for the most. Hopefully the fact the value in the cards has risen back up and the increase in value in other cards such as mana vault is a sufficient redirection for them. I think it should be.

[@boosterblader3209]

In a collectible game, the cards need to have some monetary value, or else the whole business model and ecosystem fall apart. Many of the "evil investors" people like to complain about are actually just LGSs and long-time players.

[@brandonguffey5959]

@@boosterblader3209 that is patently untrue, TCG's like Yu gi oh and pokemon thrive despite almost never taking up substantial space in LGS inventories, same with fate grand order, flesh and blood, sorcery. Magic is by and far most expensive TCG to play and there's no excuse for it.

[@boosterblader3209]

@@brandonguffey5959 LGSs are the backbone of the MTG community. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh are successful in some ways but don't have nearly as large or dedicated playerbases as Magic does. The collectibility and provenance of Magic cards is a big reason for that and has been since Alpha. The expense of playing Magic depends on what format you are playing and how you choose to engage with the game. Yes, Legacy is expensive to play, but I would rather buy into Legacy for $5K than buy into Modern for $1.5K when all my Modern cards are going to become worthless in two years.

[@andrassevigny4035]

Unban mental misstep

[@hellioappollion552]

Leave Commander rotting alone, play mana crypt in vintage ✊🏼🥳 The only real format 😁🤦🏻‍♂️🤣🙈

[@radradder]

Eh. Just play the game you love with your friends. No need to threaten people no need to have overpriced cards as an investment. Just get a pack of cards and play 😂. Goodluck out there in our crazy crypto currency mtg currency world. Mtgbros