Commander Archetype Tier List | Commander Clash Podcast 166

[@ChronocR]

Tomer dies first, Phil is second, Seth sticks around for comedic relief but dies third, Crim is last and almost makes it to the end, Richard is the killer

[@fakename3168]

@@ChronocR everyone is suspicious of Phill thinking he is the killer till his death

[@tommarren3809]

HE CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

[@jniteshade5352]

Richard doesn't believe in single target removal so if he is the killer the rest of them would all be killed in a single building collapse or something.

[@Senseovernet]

crim lives, he has to avenge them :)

[@jamesrobinson4506]

Phil *is* the killer, but he's spent the whole movie outright telling people he's going to kill them.

[@dogmonolith]

I'm sorry but Seth definitely dies in the opening sequence that sets up the rest of the movie. Unwittingly letting out an elder demon from its prison while trying to film another unboxing video.

[@tylerhardin9228]

Yes Seth 100% releases an ancient demon while just being COMPLETELY oblivious lmaoooo

[@fakename3168]

Everyone’s suspicious of phill until he dies

[@soupcansam75]

The reason he dies is he grossly mispronounces a card name so badly he accidentally summons the eldritch entity.

[@kurowasanabe]

"hold on I just need to draw some cards first".

[@blabik]

Absolutely!

[@provocative1122]

I think y’all are undervaluing counters decks. They go tall faster than anything else these days and have gotten the best new cards in recent memory

[@maxbloomfield540]

Yeah, the one that proliferates when nontoken creatures enter is nutterbutters

[@leroyderange5080]

I 💯 agree, I enjoy these guys but alot of times they be tripping. Draw, unblockable, mana ramp, mana production, creature or card tutor. Like the many things you can get just from putting a plus one counter on things is CRAZY. My Marath will of the wild is my highest and most consistent power deck.

[@TelesphoreArt]

For real though, good points. I think it needs to be played more to prove it though. Between In keepers talent among others, you have my wheels spinning for deck ideas! The spells are spendy, fast mana will be key!

[@leroyderange5080]

@TelesphoreArt if you have green in there your are fine. Between cards like evolving wild, incubation Druid, whispered hopes and others mana isn't an issue. Also if you want to ramp lands and can destroy a creature Rampant Rejuvenator puts X basic lands from your library onto the battlefield equal to its power and it comes in with 2 or 3 counters already. Or crystalline Crawler which doesn't need haste because it states remove a plus one counter from it and make a mana of any color, not limiting factors on it except it comes on with counters equal to the amount of different color mana spent to cast. So if you're a 3 color deck it comes in with 3 countets and can tap itself to add a plus one counter. Goldfish crew be sleeping

[@weirdlyalive1579]

I fr just did 200 dmg with my counter power deck

[@electric_dream_machine]

In a horror movie situation Tomer drops a Kaldra piece while running, goes back to get it and gets chopped by the Killer.

[@daithomas1430]

Or is tempted into their lair with a Kaldra deck

[@ThePancaked1]

Tomer frantically tries to assemble the combo, dropping the pieces all over the floor as the nefarious Rhystic Seth inches closer. Without his glasses he has to feel around on the ground for the Kaldra combo when suddenly

[@soapomancer3871]

Unfortunately, I think I'm finding that this sort of content on this podcast is too often three of the members say something is good or bad, then Richard says, "actually this one hyper-specific circumstance makes it completely obsolete" and then the tier list is skewed waaay too much in Richard's favor. I guess I'm trying to say that this is feeling like Richard's opinion with suggestions from the peanut gallery. The biggest thing is that I probably agree with Richard the smallest amount of the time so I notice the most. 🤷‍♂

[@YourNeighborTotor0]

Fun topic idea: Most hilarious mtg art. That original Anger card is legitimately hilarious

[@jeffreylong1478]

Looks like a spicey sour patch kid lol 😂 🔥

[@BlakeBelladonnaTucAndRoll]

I actually got the angry baby in my Mystery Booster 2 box. I was actually really happy seeing the goober.

[@crawdaddy2004]

Ukatabi Orangutan...

[@lVideoWatcherl]

Great idea! Could even do more facets - most hilarious and favourite art pieces come to mind

[@BrunoCasagrandaNeves]

Categories: hilarious, goofy, metal, pure art, wtf

[@JCFoxpox]

I would LOVE to see them now pick a tier, and then each of them play a deck from that tier for future clashes. Like okay, This week is A tier, so options are enchantress, sacrifice, blink etc.

[@Panoldark]

The cards weren’t banned, they just got exiled with Farewell

[@electric_dream_machine]

Say farewell to equity, am I right? 😂

[@matthewollar9842]

😂😂😂

[@TeaHauss]

I'm with crim on explaining sacrifice: its a bunch of archetypes in one, graveyard / tokens / aristocrats / burn, but I'd put it at high B because it requires a lot of pieces to work well. Its resilient, but unfocused.

[@matthugenberg8869]

Richard: This archetype is so bad unless you play the good cards for it. Me: WELL YEAH THAT'S HOW PLAYING GOOD CARDS WORKS!

[@michaelcollins4534]

But also if you play the good cards everyone kills you and farewells every turn don't forget

[@TheTamally]

His argument was that the cards are good, not the archetype.

[@bruis1527]

@@TheTamallybut if the cards are good, does that not make the archetype better? They’re not arguing mechanics, they’re arguing archetypes which are entirely based off how they’re cards work

[@jamespurcell3751]

For some of the Archetypes and some others, 'oh these 3 cards make it so good'

[@aceviru]

Seth is the guy who lets out the creature. In his quest to fix things, he keeps making them worse by trying to get more resources. In the end, he's the guy who caused the party to die and gets thanked by being converted into a creature himself. That being said, Crim dies first because the party suspects him due to his trollish nature. Richard survives until the end, but falls prey to Seth ignoring his plea to not open/use the book/artifact.

[@matthugenberg8869]

Seth clearly dies first. He would rather get value than live. XD

[@Elfaki19]

I'd love a deep dive into yall's paper decks!

[@OGTahoe3]

Commander burn is anything that deals repeated damage from the same source through the game. Spell slinging burn is way to hard to win with at most power levels

[@dorsalfin22]

The exception is Dragons Approach and I feel like they created that card as commanders lightning bolt

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

I would call that more of a punisher deck than burn.

[@gemyniraptor8626]

landfall is arguably one of the strongest types IMO. nobody packs enough mass land hate, you can't interact with land drops, and its something EDH is naturally doing, like Seth said; you have 40ish lands, and most edh decks have some form of ramp. they will naturally have more resources than yo to respond to any disruption you try to throw out. also landfall decks are naturally inthe colors the hardest to deal with - UG. anytime i try to slow down my friends elementals or Tatyova landfall deck, i can expect to also get caught by every counterspell possible and they will never be out of resources

[@VBFilms]

I dont feel like MLD is the answer to landfall decks since the landfall deck has enough lands and extra land cards so that they can easily rebuild after an MLD.

[@bahamut645]

+1/+1 counters is way underated imo. I feel like you guys forgot that posion exists here.

[@MCvicRPG]

While they do have crossovers, i think at their core they are 2 different archetypes. I can infect proliferate without a single +1+1 counter and vice verca

[@ihateyou5463]

Right? I built a skullbriar deck and currently i get him to around 20 power around turn 5 and i dont even have the expensive counter cards like doubling season or ozolith. These new +1/+1 counter cards from the last few sets have made the strat really good

[@tylerhennessy2701]

This will be a good one to see what is off/on the list post ban

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

The thing about enchantress is while you don't get as much recursion, it doesn't really matter if you can't recur your stuff after a wrath if you have 20 cards in hand. You just repeatedly make game winning boards turn after turn because you draw so many cards. It snowballs so hard. A lot of the talk about blink decks can actually be applied to enchantress, without the inherent protection spells.

[@zacharia4061]

5:20 he doesn't know, the innocence of a week old Tomer 🥲

[@justinwelsh9367]

Phil dies in the intro. Seth doesn't take the issue seriously ignoring Tomer and dies making the threat real. Crim is the comic relief who sacrifices himself at the end to save Richard the main protag. Tomer lving/dying is optional.

[@biostem]

Lucea Kane is not a good example of +1/+1 at all. She makes incidental use of them, but Lucea Kane's power is far more about interactions like double casting Open the Way for six on turn four.

[@keithwynn8390]

Doesn't really matter. They're talking about the archetypes in general.

[@light-chemistry]

They’re right though MLK isn’t +1/+1 counters almost ever. It’s x spells which is a different archetype.

[@totakekeslider3835]

@@light-chemistry It's both. You run Hardened Scales, All Will Be One, Branching Evolution, and all the other counters payoffs in it too.

[@light-chemistry]

@@totakekeslider3835 no, you don't. I have an MLK deck. I wouldn't put any of these cards in there. There are better commanders for +1/+1 counters if I wanted.

[@totakekeslider3835]

@@light-chemistry Good thing there’s an aggregate resource that compiles this data that we can check. Here are the stats of those three cards I mentioned: Hardened Scales (58% of decks), All Will Be One (36% of decks), and Branching Evolution (30% of decks). I run all of these and a lot of other counter payoffs in my own MLK deck, like the Ozolith, Kami of Whispered Hopes, and the best one, Animar. All of them have a tremendous amount of synergy with her ability to just place a single counter that also work with other parts of the deck. They mentioned it in the show that most times decks are comprised of different archetypes, and that’s ok. Things can blend together.

[@RasmusVJS]

Crim is the genre savvy geek who comments on how the other survivors ideas will get them killed, only to be killed of first so that they can continue to make mistakes. Phil ruins the initial escape plan because he has to choose between someone he loves and the group's escape, and dies saving the one he loves. Richard is the cynical but pragmatic de-facto leader of the group, who keeps talking about how they have no hope of survival, and if it's a zombie movie, has no qualms with killing an infected, but in the beginning of act 3 secretly shows that he has hope for the rest of the group by making a decision that ultimately means his own demise. Seth is the gentle and agreeable jock character, who always mediates and calms the group down after something horrific happens, but who makes a heroic sacrifice that saves the Final Girl. And Tomer is that Final Girl, whose innocent kindness but willingness to stand up to the threat ultimately leaves him the only survivor of the group.

[@kithkindeck]

Agree on Tomer with artifacts. I have a Jan Jansen deck that is a giant rube-goldberg machine. Throw a single collector ouphe, vandalblast, bane of progress or farewell on the stack and my deck crumbles like a house of cards. I built it this way, mind you, but even kneecapping myself (no KCI, no mana vault\crypt\monolith combo) it is still capable of hand-vomit turns. A makes sense.

[@gabeempey1041]

I found it funny how what the other 3 found so reliant about artifacts is that cards like wake the past exists and like there is the four colorless artifact fetchers (junk diver, workshop assistant, myr retriver, and scrap trawler), but like is the existence of those cards really good demonstration of artifacts being "resilient" when those creatures have to die first to get the trigger? Also like if all of my mana is in artifacts how am I going to get 8 mana to reanimate all of my artifacts?

[@tomerabramovici32]

@@gabeempey1041 yeah that's basically it, I forgot to bring it up during the cast. But if you exile all my artifacts including my mana rocks, I don't have the mana to cast the mass reanimation spells that would get me back into it.

[@6slade]

really enjoyed this cast, I feel like we look at cards/strategies from a color identity perspective more whereas just basic archetype discussion is actually the most useful for choosing a commander imo

[@PasDeMD]

I think it's interesting you all rate +1/+1 counters so low. I had to take apart my Okinec deck because I kept blowing people out around turn 6. And I wasn't playing fast mana, smothering, etc. Meanwhile I totally agree with the rest of the list.

[@blazikeaton7478]

there should really be more ways to interact with counters, leeches is like the only card i can think of that clears poison counters, and that card is older than i am vampire hexmage is the only card i can think of that removes +1 counters, and it hasn't even seen a reprint (yet).

[@anthonydelfino6171]

They think Voltron in general is bad so this isn’t terribly surprising I do think +1/+1 counters is possibly the weakest form of it (compared to auras or equipment) but by no means bad. I have a Bright Palm deck that gets real scary with counters

[@marimi46]

Yeah, a +1/+1 counters deck with lots of protection especially is very scary. Surviving a round of sweepers and having a board of 8/8s due to all of those counters is no joke

[@spencerparsons3849]

god i can’t wait for the ban list episode

[@armoredduck]

+1 counter creature decks allow you to play a creature deck without over deploying to the board. You can create threatening board states with very few cards and are less susceptible to board wipes. If the blink deck isn't winning via blinking then it's a bad blink deck. The power of the creatures should be virtually meaningless.

[@evangrescol7772]

So, adding my thoughts here: 1. Artifacts are easily one of the most powerful and popular types of decks. Their strength mainly comes from how well fast mana rocks synergize with the archetype as well as a massive pool of support from across the years. 2. If you're milling yourself, it is a great archetype. If you're milling other people, it's weaker. There is a slight stax-like quality to milling someone else if they don't have answers to bring their cards back, but it otherwise just feeds the graveyard deck. There's a reason why I run more graveyard hate in my Mothman deck than all my other decks combined. Your chances of milling your entire pod to death are also pretty low. 3. Control is tricky. Genuinely probably the hardest archetype to play and execute in commander because you have to somehow manage 3 other people at the same time. Then you have to somehow win during all of it. By itself, it's a mediocre archetype. 4. Burn in commander is always going to be referring to cards like purphoros and mana barbs rather than your lightning bolts and shocks. I think they just hit the middle of the chart only because they're a very telegraphed threat. 5. I'm a bit biased, but I think Enchantress is S-tier or just at the top of A-tier, on the same level as Artifacts. I think ultimately, artifacts are better, but it's really only because of how much more explosive the archetype is. 6. I assume this is referring to reanimating/bouncing to hand from the grave. In which case, yeah, easy A-tier. Its only drawback is that there are enough effects that can disrupt or stop it altogether. 7. Voltron can have quite a bit of variance as well, so I'll just focus on general application. Without some way to slug your opponent at the same time with a single creature, it is really hard to win a game with volton. The strategy is just too much of a glass cannon. 8. There is a fair point to be made of a spellslinger's board state. It is an issue that must be answered by every spellslinging deck, thus holding it back. That said, once they have one, it can be pretty difficult to stop them. 9. I think you're undervaluing it a bit. +1/+1 counters are the easiest way to make bigger creatures. It has many payoffs it can go into, and the range is virtually limitless. The issue is that it's too broad and reliant on those payoffs. Without them, it can indeed feel like you're twiddling your thumbs. 10. Chaos is... not my cup of tea. I genuinely think it's the weakest strat because it is purposely unfocused. That said, it is a great casual option for groups that'll accept it. 11. Stax is really slow to assemble a wincon, and it has the same issues that Control does. On the plus side, many of its best pieces are passive components, so assembling the wincon should be less difficult. 12- Tokens' greatest strength is how aggressive it is. Mass removal can hit it easily, though, and it takes a while to rebuild. Recursion not being a natural option to it makes it a bit slow. 13. Lands is at the top. Simic has taught most people that. Something about 30+ cards you were already gonna play synergizing with your gameplan is a bit too good. 14. Blink is indeed powerful. The simplicity of a "peek-a-boo" mechanic combined with effects that were originally intended to only happen once is quite impactful. 15. Lifgain is not really a game plan on its own, but payoffs like Will, Scion of Peace bring it to life (heh). The life gained itself is merely a cushion when all is said and done, but good versions of this archetype acknowledge it. 16. Sacrifice is strong, definitely high A. I think its card draw is about the same as Enchantress, though. For Sac, you need at minimum 3 admittedly low-cost cards to start drawing. Enchantress, though generally more costly, only needs 2. 17. Creatures are a fair B-tier. They have a lot of variance that can swing them across the chart, like the difference between Dinosaurs or Dragons to Kavus or Goats is massive. Edit: clarification and grammar.

[@jaycue7641]

Artifacts are so powerful because they just have so much support. There's more Artifacts than any other card type in the game. Over 30 years of Artifact support. I think Lands matter decks are a more recent archetype but also very powerful. Landfall can snowball quickly and run away with a game.

[@sorcdk2880]

The main value of Lifegain decks are as trigger chains, where you can scale up both sources of triggers and the things they trigger. Basically there are bunch of things that can generate a lot of instances of life gain, and a bunch of things that trigger on each life gain event. I recently set up a vampire drain turbo trigger chain, which is based of a bunch of vampires continously generating drain effects (damage to opponents and gain life), and a bunch of other vampires that chain those life gain events into even more damage, all together with some turbo chargers that boost everything even further. There was a game recently, where if one person at the table had not put up a "opponents cannot gain life" effect, the deck would have done enough damage to almost outright kill everyone from their starting life, which they were no longer at at that point, all because those things could chain together. +1/+1 counter decks really depends on how you generate that source of counters and what you put them on. I have seen a +1/+1 counter deck sit with large creatures, but because of the source and amount of effort it took to set it up, it was not enough to break the balance and punch through the other side. Decks that have a decent sized board and can push a bunch of +1/+1 counters on more or less each creature can be very oppresive. Basically if you can mass it out with massed triggers it gets crazy very fast. One example is setting up something like Assemble the Legions (scaling token generation) together with Cathars' Crusade (+1/+1 on each creature on each ETB) means that instead of getting a bunch of small 1/1s, you instead get a bunch of X/X, while the previous ones gets even more ridiculess and much more dangerous. That combination basically equivaletes to getting a more and more scary and permanent overrun effect each turn. Sacrifice decks suffer under just needing so many different components that it becomes a bit hard to assemble all of them reasonably reliably, and because you need to fill your deck with so many of those components you get a lot of other pieces pressured out, such as ramp, draw, defenses and interaction, all of which making it hard to give the deck all that much power. Basically they easily end up being much harder to brew a good deck for, and that makes its effective power lower --- assuming that you are building the decklist yourself. Control has to play a bit differently, partially because there are just more players to handle. In casual there is one other factor that really plays in, which is the higher life total and generally slower play, which means you can dedicate more focus on the better value interactions compared to having answers to things early on. Combine this with not being each opponents only opponent and you may not actually need to deal with every threat, just the big ones. What I have had most success with has been to combine defenses (basically things that makes you hard to attack, and as such push most of the combat elsewhere), together with assymetric board wipes (kills their stuff but not yours) and some removal that can otherwise be good, such as the to opponents scaling Grasp of Fate. Removal engines are also really good, because you tend to have better time and resources to set them up. Part of the idea is then to not look scary, stop the things that could critically endager you and simply wait things out for your opportunity to end the game. I kind of had to make use of such a "non-scary" strategy for a long time in my local group because I had a periode where I got hate killed out for winning too often (and not because of stronger decks, we were playing with my decks and I played whatever the others didn't choose).

[@evangrescol7772]

@sorcdk2880 I absolutely agree, I'm just saying that lifegain decks that don't have enough payoffs are more or less just trying to stall out. That can be a good strategy when combined with other strategies, but by itself, it isn't doing enough. I have personal experience with this in particular. +1/+1 counters are in a similar place, though they shine best when you're able to spread them to multiple creatures using minimum resources. Proliferate is a huge help in this regard, though balancing it with other resources can be difficult. Payoffs that give these creatures trample or similar such effects are very good as well. On the other hand, a 1/1 becoming a 2/2, is not good enough on its own. Sacrifice does need more pieces to function, but once those pieces are in place, the payoffs are pretty good. Hence why I think it deserves a high rating, but definitely not the highest. "Rattlesnake" control is probably the best form of control. I still think it's just not a very strong archetype in commander, but I definitely think your strategy I'd the best way to play it. It's all about controlling the tempo, after all.

[@justwantawholename]

No one survives, and Seth dies first by accidentally unleashing the evil

[@forrestlane-zk5eq]

He refused to pay the 1

[@shanaeverowe9626]

The evil possessed crim to take down the others

[@muddlewait8844]

What a great overview of the casual commander meta! This was really valuable for me.

[@Balileart]

As someone with a skeleton tribal deck, people get so scared when I play a buried alive only for me to tutor for a couple of garbage skeletons i can recur for way more mana than they are worth

[@blazikeaton7478]

👏MORE👏 👏SKELETON👏 👏TRIBAL CARDS👏

[@tcurrid8059]

Turn 2 winter orb is one of the best possible plays in magic. It makes you feel good about yourself, it increases testosterone production, it increases serotonin production, it helps your friends build character, it increases your resting metabolism, etc Just make sure you have something like a sol ring to break the parity.

[@timbombadil4046]

Was going to ask if burn was just group slug before Crim outright stated it. Personally dont hear it labeled as burn but have pointed new EDH players interested in burn towards group slug.

[@casuallydone468]

I think they are fundamentally different but encompass the same archetype. Every slug is burn, but not every burn is slug. Same how every reanimator is GY, but not every GY is reanimator.

[@Mark101dg]

@@casuallydone468 I thought it was a traditional MTG vs. commander/EDH thing. Burn in commander = group slug...because there is an actual group and 'burning' one opponent at a time makes no sense.

[@Lumpalooza]

You guys should phil in on these ones for a 5-person convo if possible

[@Jakerunio]

I have bad news for Richard about "the olden days," Premodern is a format all about "the olden days" and the lands are the most powerful part of the format, in spite of having no fetchable duals lol. The format revolves around lands with activated abilities, so much so that people main deck Tsabo's Web to great effect. Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Treetop Village, Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave, Dust Bowl, Kor Haven, etc. all see plenty of play, and the creature lands are a real win condition in lots of game states in the format. So yeah I guess that means that Seth is right, the payoffs are probably the problem in edh. What on earth is Aesi, for instance lol.

[@crawdaddy2004]

Milling as a win condition is very different than milling as a way to steal from graveyards, and both are very different from self-mill as a win condition and self-mill as a way to abuse the graveyard. Milling as a win condition is ridiculously hard and is terrible (which is kinda why I love it). Milling to steal, that's just a thief deck with extra steps. Self-mill gives you access to dredge and Hermit Druid.

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

I agree that Lands, Artifacts, Enchantress, and Sacrifice are the top 4 archtypes for casual Commander; good list.

[@camerongrey3643]

One thing I think was missing in your tier list consideration that frames a lot of these archetypes is that they are often blended. Some archetypes, like mill, are often *the* thing you’re doing (part of why it isn’t that strong). But others, like +1/+1 counters or tokens, are often half the story of what a deck is doing.

[@ajellis3914]

My favorite card is mana crypt. When I play it for zero mana, my brain begins to fill. When I tap it, I can feel the limits of my creativity beginning to be reached. When I win the flip, I am happy. When I lose the flip, I am sad. Many of my commanders require colorless mana, making it a deep cut for my specific play-style. I hope nothing happens to mana crypt.

[@fakename3168]

And I’m glad I’m able to use my favourite card, dockside extortionist against mana rock player like you

[@ajellis3914]

@@fakename3168 0: cast mana crypt 1: cast jeweled lotus 2. Mountain 3: crack jeweled lotus 4: cast norin the wary 4: tap mountain and mana crypt 5: cast your phyrexian altar. Tell your friends you misordered and do this before norin 6: sac norin, add red 7: cast dockside extortionist. Sac it to phyrexian altar. 8: Use that and 2 floating lotus mana to cast norin again 9: sac norin. Add any color of mana. 10: end your turn

[@malmasterson3890]

My favorite card is Krosan Grip 🙂

[@imaginarymatter]

Mana Crypt is now just Crypt.

[@BabyBull72]

🤣

[@Diegesis]

One thing to keep in mind about lands and graveyards is that they both work well together. if your graveyard deck is green then why not mass reanimate all them lands as well as the critters inside? i find it very hard to build any sultai, jund or abzan deck without a manabase that basically feels like a lands deck.

[@olivergalitch5584]

There is one really strong token deck that was missing : Roxanne. Make ton of mana stones that actually deal damage is pretty insane.

[@Infernoman64]

The horror movie the crew stars in should be called "farewell"

[@peepeemcgee97]

Based on their logic here, I think it's funny that my mono black Ayara, First of Locthwain deck is considered burn lol

[@sventhemouse95]

Voltron can be very strong in casual because it's an interaction check. If your opponents don't have it they can get destroyed quick. Especially given the environment where certain pods don't run spot removal.

[@benknock981]

waiting on the day that the group understands there is nuance to decks. instead of arguing over whether burn is stacks or combo, understand its a win condition for a type of deck. purphorose in a krenko deck is a combo finisher in whats probably a creature deck. roiling vortex and his friends in a torbrand deck is a way of ending the game in a red stax deck.

[@justinwelsh9367]

The podcast wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if this happened

[@leroyderange5080]

Crim speaks facts, sacrifice decks are normally more than one archetype in one. Which lends itself to being super powerful and capable of dealing with cards that good affect them do to the multitude of colors that can go into these decks which doesn't allow them to be pigeon hold Sac/tokens/graveyard, Sac/graveyard/etb, Sac/artifact/graveyard, sac/plus counters/graveyard, sac/land/graveyard, and rarely but not forgotten sac/enchantment/graveyard. There are cards like Yarmouth which allows you to sac draw and put a negative one-one counter on a creature and proliferate. You have Skullclamp, you have multiple enchantments and creatures that let you draw for a creature dieing. You have fercundity, you have greater good. You have cards that let you have equipments that even let you do ot outside of skullclamp. You have the alters that produce mana. And since sac almost always has the graveyard archetype as a secondary feature which can lend itself to cards like ruthless technomancer, or if you want to be cruel add control to your sac deck. Sac decks are crazy. Im sorry the Goldfish crew is on drugs. There's even planeswalkers like Tevesh that can help you out and it can be your commander and has partner. I use to have a tevesh and Tana deck that was insane. I'm sorry but right now these homies are tripping.

[@drkatz1192]

I think it’s kinda funny Edgar Markov is the chosen commander for “Creatures” and not “Tokens” when it’s eminence ability literally makes tokens.

[@BabyBull72]

I have a mill deck I haven't played in forever for the exact reason y'all mentioned. I was always improperly threat assessed and got an unnecessary level of animosity whenever I played it. From what I've observed playing commander is that most casual players don't like non-creature based win cons.

[@edwarddaignault5243]

I love lands and artifact decks, but i find sometimes you don't draw enough cards if you're not playing enough blue cards; and artifact decks can have a very bad day with an artifact wrath, feels super bad sometimes. Cheating out stuff for free from the graveyard is fun and can be strong.

[@justinjones5034]

The rankings for the artifact archetype spelling out SASS is top tier content.

[@TankP0wnz]

My favorite voltron commander is Bruna, Light of Alabaster because even if you get shut down for an attack or two, she brings your auras back from anywhere.

[@TenousPlan]

in a horror movie Richard never dies because he's always mindful of removal

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

Richard can't die. He always has a Fog.

[@Sandovian]

"Opponents can't gain life" needs to be an eminence effect

[@Mark101dg]

Came here for the burn archetype. Nailed it 100%, the deck needs to do more than just burn if you want to win. Stax, pillowfort, creatures, whatever - something to hold your ground while you burn the opponents. Building Valgavoth Harrower of Souls now with that in mind...adding in pillowfort and GOAD cards to keep myself safe while the house is on fire.

[@toxicbuffalo2269]

I have a very janky Lord Xander mill deck. It almost never works, but I've had a lot of games where I play Mesmeric Orb turn 1 and do nothing else, and it will mill half of everybody's library over the course of the game. And I promise you, even the graveyard decks are often not happy about it.

[@toms1782]

Another one that maybe is just part of control, is when you play blue something where you take control of everyone’s stuff. That also draws hate like Mill.

[@dorsalfin22]

Seth would die first, but then when all hope is lost toward the end and the rest of the team is backed into a corner with the baddie about to eat them all, Seth comes in with all the scars and kills the baddie and everyone gasps "hes alive!" runs and hugs him. The end 😅

[@cleetusi9559]

Also as a newer player beginning this year. I novelty went hard into Yuma Proud Protector deck. Upgraded it. Hella fun but whoooweeee lands matters I didn’t know could build so much value. Favorite deck for sure.

[@p45yourfired3]

Nice to see Imodane get a shout-out, I have an Imodane deck where I use radiate and radiant performer for my burn spells

[@P0T4T054CK]

41:14 Light-Paws is brutal. Best Voltron deck I've played.

[@maxleveladventures]

RE: Voltron I have a casual Kathril deck (0 tutors) that’s is very consistent. It’s probably my highest winrate deck because it’s really hard to get rid of a 13/13 with indestructible, lifelink, flying, double strike, first strike, trample, hexproof, menace, Deathtouch. And it gets keywords from the graveyard, so people can’t remove whatever is giving the Voltron commander hexproof like they can with a normal Voltron deck. So if Kathril isn’t countered, it basically puts the table on a 2-3 turn clock (there are many ways to give Kathril haste or cast it at flash speed).

[@bamjo9]

One of the things that people never mention about sacrifice is that it is mostly not-interactible (discounting hate bears, like the selesnya 4cmc one, and stifles) because sacrifice is often in the cost of the card and the payoff is a trigger

[@wessmit3223]

There’s usually enablers like Blood Artist you can kill.

[@bamjo9]

@@wessmit3223 as I said, blood artist is a triggered ability, thus you can kill blood artist but I can sac my board in response. To stop blood artist you need something like rest in peace

[@MrABK108]

I built Ruhan of the Fomori to use the Sheldon secret lair version, and I built it as a chaos deck. Meaning the commander attacks someone at random and then I have as many "choose at random" cards as viable. The idea is that they are undercosted and I cant be held responsible when they happen to attack you. So why bother removing it, there 66% chance it wont attack you next time! It's superfun and it has many "surprise MF!" cards that turn the tide of battle

[@crissaegrim2697]

Do not forget about Tevesh Szat Doom of Fools for Sac decks. He does it ALL. I pair him up with prava for token aristocrats and it wins very often at my table

[@rockerknight25]

Several of my strongest decks are counter decks. Hardened Scales and Shattered Ozolith are cheap and turn all your little +1/+1 into +2/+2, and it's super super easy to slap down a 20/20 creature and go to town. You don't need a wide field of buffed tokens, you can go tall and since most counters stuff is green it's easy to get trample.

[@TSebster9]

I feel like theft is an archetype that deserves its own label here in the same way that chaos does

[@Someone-lg6di]

They also missed tribal (xreature is way to generic) and superfriends

[@KingQuetzal]

Sacrifice is S for me. Can't even prevent the effects without a stifle since sacrificing is part of the cost.

[@danielsniff6405]

You can stop death triggers with exile atleast

[@KingQuetzal]

@@danielsniff6405 nope, if they sac as part of a cost the creature is dead before you have priority.

[@danielsniff6405]

@KingQuetzal doesn't matter if you have a replacement effect that exiles. You still get the effect of whatever your sac outlet does, but it won't trigger "if creature dies" effects

[@KingQuetzal]

@@danielsniff6405 Ah, thought you meant. "At least something like path to exile works". Yeah RIP works, but you can't respond with a rest in piece or replacement effect. No one will sacrifice a creature to pay a cost expecting a death trigger and then get blown out by a replacement effect. They will instead calculate if the sacrifice is worth it with a replacement effect out which is much weaker.

[@peewee0224]

Aristocrats is definitely not s it’s good but for the most part you’re doing 1 damage per sacrifice. And everybody starts at 40 let alone any random life gain spells

[@onlyRicky_x]

I think Phil would be the first to go. "I understand it's the right thing to do." Right before telling the killer he knew where the MacGuffin to defeat them was

[@casuallydone468]

A big thing with GY decks is, a lot of the time, at least in reanimator, if you are getting shut out by silver bullets then a lot of other effects tend to be silver bulleting other players (Stuff like Containment Priest and Archon of Emeria), and you eventually get to the point of dropping these 7, 8, 9 drops every single turn that just are so far above the equal mana payoffs other people are playing. A hardcasted Hullbreaker Horror, Archon of Cruelty, or Toxrill the Corrosive are still some of the most busted creatures ever at those manacosts even when not cheated.

[@HurrDurrThe]

I think based on the discussion around the creatures topic, you guys should rank the best typal decks

[@karlnord1429]

Jurassic Park Casting: Seth --- Hammond, the Billionaire Richard --- Park Ranger (Pretty Girl) Tomer and Phil --- Archaeologists Crim --- Black dude

[@cassie7611]

seth would absolutely die first in some sort of looney tunes trap where the thing keeping the evil demon trapped just has a sign with “FREE CARD DRAW” scrawled on it in suspicious red ink

[@cassie7611]

also lifegain is goated but the thing with lifegain is that unless you actively want a low life total it’s literally good everywhere. burn + lifegain with firesong and sunspeaker type effects is NUTS. control + lifegain with oloro is solid as hell. token lifegain with soul sisters. Voltron lifegain with loxodon warhammer. enchantress lifegain with sythis. adding lifegain to other archetypes makes them better basically all the time

[@Hyxtrem]

I agree on everything but +1/+1 counters, I think it's way harder to pull off a great deck, but synergies are so high you can kill the table out of nowhere.

[@samjseay]

Interesting you didn't mention Ojer under burn because I have seen it played by a couple of people and the damage quickly gets out of hand. It feels like a traditional burn deck too because the deck quickly goes into top deck mode but is dealing so much damage it's genuinely scary. I don't think it changes your rating of burn that much but its gotta be one of the best burn decks I've seen in casual commander

[@Rawakk]

It's crazy to me that so many groups consider burn to be weak, our regular table is so aggressive that by turn 5, we have burn player, izzet player and mardu aggro player each holding couple burn spells in hand holdin each other hostage in some sort of Mexican standoff while 4th player at the table is struggling to keep himself alive from all the passive pings going around

[@forloveofthepage2361]

Seth dies first, Crim finds out who it is then dies before he can tell anyone, tomer goes next under a pile of artifacts, Phil as the final girl defeats Richard with a Hail Mary 14 mana play.

[@forloveofthepage2361]

I think Seth's definition of stax is something that stays on the board and does a thing. Clears up so much.

[@evrarddarenberg8311]

Lifegain is popular because it is easy to make the deck with little to no cards. When I started, all I had were lifegain durdle synergy monsters. They are all cheap and common and the game plan flows naturally.

[@CuddlyBuns]

Just going to put this out there my Morska undersea sleuth Voltron deck is one of the funnest and most powerful decks I have. You're in the best colors, you have access to counterspells, pump spells, protection spells, propaganda type spells. And he's a pseudo card draw engine in the command zone and gets really big really fast

[@CuddlyBuns]

And I also filled it with a handful of the cards that make you a body when you draw your second car to each turn. That way you still have chump blockers aswell

[@WushuTaz]

No discard? For whatever reason, I find that most people hate discard more than mill. The mill player next to me will make everyone mill 10 cards to their graveyard but I make one person discard one card I become arch enemy...

[@chocolatepiegames3617]

For me, I’m pre-planning what I’m going to do with the cool cardboard in my hand while my opponents take their turns. I’ll forge my entire strategy around what cards I’ve drawn and the percentages that I’ll draw others I need. If I have to suddenly discard half of them, I’m throwing hands. All my cool plans are out the door. And top-deck magic isn’t all that fun. Also, the less cards in your hand, the less magic you play. And the reason people play commander is usually so they can get the full play experience and generally always have a good time. On the other hand, if someone mills me, I can’t really be mad since I had no idea I’d even draw those cards in the first place.

[@nicholasfrancois5706]

Having been using a go wide sac deck. Can atest to the shear amount of redundancies in sac outlets, fodder and payoffs. Rebuilding is not hard and you can quite a bit of removel before its really affecting you. Last note having a effect way to kill your opponents when board states start getting clogged is great since you actually progressing the game.

[@Yorsem]

"If it's a permanent, and it negatively affects an opponent, it's a stax piece." -Seth probably :)

[@Someone-lg6di]

They stated that under their definition ward is stax since propaganda is stax

[@merrychristamas94]

>> Tomer unfortunately dies first (that's meant to be a compliment as he's probably doing something sweet like buying cute +1/+1 counter tokens when the killer grabs him from his keyboard). >> Crim dies second due to finding Tomer's body and steps over it to look through his deck, focusing on the pitifully absent amount of dimir mill cards in his Selesnya enchantress deck. The killer re-enters the scene to wack Crim before he can even say PHENAX. >> Seth dies third, in the most unfair and unjust of circumstances. He was never even a target, just happened to look a lot like the killer's most hated cousin. >> Richard, the final target for the killer, is seen poring over the killer's exact location over the past 24 hours. He's also managed to learn everything about the killer's identity, personal life, bank and stock accounts, and is on his way to find the killer. He's devised a plan so controversial and bizarre that it just might be the answer. He uses a bounce land card to slit the killer's throat and at the end of the movie, smugly ends the final scene with: "and they said bounce lands wouldn't work..."

[@21Kikoshi]

Mill is S tier, its the psychological gameplay!

[@imaginarymatter]

Another problem with mill is that the only effective mill decks aren't really mill decks... they are combo decks where the combo just mills everyone out for the wincon. For example, Phenax never wins by piecemill tapping their creatures at the end of every turn and slowly reducing libraries to zero cards. Instead Phenax plays Eater of the Dead or Intruder Alarm and mills everyone at once. Playing mill cards in Phenax outside of the combo pieces actually reduces its chance to win.

[@BigHank]

True, lots of altar of dementia combos as well in decks that play it for graveyard filling but then can also go infinite. Not a mill deck but happens to be an easy mill combo win con

[@mikeottavia]

Tomer hit the nail on the head. My Wrexial deck gets so much hate for milling people's good cards.

[@michaelcollins4534]

Seth dies first since he's the heart Phil is the helpful one that dies second Crim is the red herring that dies third act Richard is the twist killer Tomer is final girl who survived

[@DrukenReaps]

I don't know if y'all have ever played Bruna, Light of Alabaster but it is a very high powered Voltron deck. Would highly recommend it with a self Traumatize and similar cards.

[@James-mm8pr]

I’d put enchantress above artifacts. Granted the recursion may not be as good, but there ability to draw a ton of cards at any point in the is second to none.

[@crawdaddy2004]

I love enchantress, but I disagree for one big reason: variance. If you are running an enchantress deck, you basically have to run GWx. While MOST artifact decks contain blue, it is not necessary. You can run colorless, mono-red, mono-white, or even GB (Glissa, the Traitor). It is almost impossible to build a viable enchantress deck that does not contain at least white or green.

[@Someone-lg6di]

​@crawdaddy2004 my ghen arcanum weaver agrees

[@crawdaddy2004]

@@Someone-lg6di I wish I were wrong about this. 😂

[@alexliang1040]

Killing with Lightning bolts is called spellslinger/storm

[@JEL625]

Now im curious. How do you rate these strategies? Discard Poison Spell theft Super friends Threaten (creature theft) Or do these fit into the current strategies? Edit: I would split "creatures" between Kindred synergy Cost cheating Go tall Go wide Evasive attackers.

[@linguinibros.productions]

Nice tier list, now Tomer, what's the best budget commander for each category?

[@JoshVarner-m8k]

That artifact ranking has got a lot of sass

[@thetrinketmage]

Tomer is 100% correct! Stax usually means you just get hit by 3 opponents at once. It just means you lose the politics game instantly! And as you increase the power level stax doesn't get better. Stax is soooo bad in cedh these days!

[@thesamuraiman]

5:59 Tomer is right. Red, white, green. They all mass-hate on artifacts very easily and often.

[@creedplaysgames9811]

kinda surprised +1/+1 counters was rated so low, there's a lot of power in those decks. especially if you build them beyond just the +1/+1 counters and mix in other counters with proliferation. hope the crew can give them a shot in the future, might be surprised with what they find

[@alexnope3200]

From someone in a +1/1 counter meta. Mindless Automaton and Chrystalline Crawler are the cards that are just obscene

[@ygaudreault]

My fav voltron deck is Sylvia and Korvath with anthems. Pretty good because you are killing two people at once.

[@blaineacevedo4926]

I built an Ajani/Elspeth tribal deck with Laezel at the helm with the master chef backgroud and it consistently has about 50-60 power on the board by turn 5 so i think the +1/+1 counter strategy works well in some case.

[@mikemoyer8162]

Light-paws, Richard, was the last big voltron before Benson. It saw brief cedh play.

[@andreabasso9278]

Slicer? still played in CEDH

[@colecarmichael5724]

Anything that punishes your opponent by just playing the game is stax also obviously anything that doesn’t let you play the game. How is that hard for you guys to agree on?