Ep. 185 | Tiny Calibers

Tiny calibers are fast and fun. These pint-size projectiles push the limits of possible. Punching paper to popping prairie dogs, tiny cartridges abound, filling boutique-like niches sure to make any enthusiast add a new rifle to their collection. Jim and Mark tap into the all-knowing Ryan Muckenhirn and, frequent guest, Seth Toy to get the lowdown on these cuties of the cartridge world.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@goooser410]

17 WSM is my love of life !!!

[@jleighn1210]

Hmr doesn't hold a candle to the wsm

[@shayneadams7528]

Wsm is amazing love mine

[@brentrigby690]

I'm surprised Mark didn't bring up the 17 WSM!

[@toddslaven3792]

Yep or talking.20 caliber on the 204 but no mention of the.220 swift

[@stevecochran9078]

I love the .17 HMR. It's fur-friendly and works well on critters up to lynx. It turns tundra squirrels inside out with body hits.

[@hugoletkeman7049]

The 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer has a pretty interesting story. It was the creation of PO Ackley (Ackley Improved) at the request of a firearms publication. They were interested to see if muzzle velocities of 5,000+ feet per second were achievable. Unfortunately Ackley’s creation fell short of the goal.

[@TROOPERfarcry]

I read this on a forum, so take it for what it's worth. But according to this internet guy, he got 5k out of loading a 50 BMG with sabots and 308 bullets. He said that it wasn't fun to shoot since you had to remove the muzzle-brake, or the sabot would do it for you. He also said that it wasn't particularly accurate. He went on to say that the increase in velocity for this set-up versus something like the 22-Eargesplitten was that having a bigger base to the sabot allowed for a larger "piston" for the gas to push against. He also said that he was able to hit a coyote with it, and there was nothing but fur, blood, teeth, and eyeballs left.

[@danielrizza8536]

No mention of the 17WSM?

[@craigsellier5973]

That 17wsm is a bad boy. Velocity on the fastest round now is 3300 fps.

[@bryantbutlermf]

They didn’t mention the 17wsm? Why waste an hour on people who don’t know and shouldn’t upload

[@infantilepillock1687]

Now it is time to talk about the perfect small game benchrest cartridge, the .222 Remington. Greetings from Germany.

[@Greyzonecompliant]

It has the balance, and balance matters.

[@infantilepillock1687]

@@Greyzonecompliant Exactly. Here in Germany it is used for target practice, varmint hunting and it is the smallest legal cartridge on roe deer. And it does all of these very well.

[@brinkee7674]

204 Ruger does all the 222 Rem does, same case necked down with shoulder moved forward and angle increased to 30 degrees along with ever so slightly smaller bullet(.204/5mm)

[@infantilepillock1687]

@@brinkee7674 You aree confusing 222 Rem and 222 Rem Mag. And no, 204 Ruger does not the same, since it is forbidden in other countries for certain uses, whereas 222 Rem and 222 Rem Mag are allowed.

[@brinkee7674]

@@infantilepillock1687 Reason it's illegal in some places is due to being smaller than .22. It really depends on where you are and here it is no issue. Yes I did miss that op wasn't magnum

[@BITT0285]

I didnt hear the 17 winchester super magnum mentioned

[@francisco1469]

You guys answered my prayers!!! Thank you!!!!! 😁😁😁😁

[@joelclark2130]

17 Winchester Superman., Super mag. I was waiting all Podcast to hear about it. And it's a light out cartridge for gardening at 300 yes And Amen

[@bmoorear]

Hang on………did I miss it……….or was there no mention of the 17 Hornet? The best tiny cartridge of all time.

[@travisalder9360]

That’s what I’m saying

[@bmoorear]

@@mikecross2435 Got it, thanks for that. Love the channel, love these guys but they kinda missed with this one. The 17 Hornet is the premier micro cartridge. Its not even in the same ballpark as an HMR, its like 38 special vs 357 mag. You can run 15.5grn NTX Lead free up to 4,000fps, 25grn Vmax to 3300 and 20grn Vmax to 3600...........all done with 9.0-12.5 grains of powder. It will whollop jack rabbits out as far as you can see them and it's a true coyote round out to about 180 if that is your thing. You can shoot groups with the rifle, blast water bottles, hunt with it and all is accomplished with a very very low muzzle report.

[@nk-dw2hm]

@@bmoorear sounds like it's very similar to 22 hornet but with a little extra juice?

[@WayStedYou]

@@nk-dw2hm It's a 22 hornet in 17. The 243 to the 308.

[@corydavis3258]

Its a great cartridge love my cz527

[@terrymcknight4167]

Good podcast. Lots of fun info!

[@sandych33ks1]

17 HMR and my 22-250 are my favorites

[@nk-dw2hm]

Bolt for both?

[@ryanditsch6150]

Great discussion!! owner of 17rem, 204ruger, 22 hornet, and 223 rem. love small bore. Always enjoy listening to the knowledge and experience Ryan offers.

[@brinkee7674]

No 22lr? No Ruger 10/22? I thought everyone owned one. lol Many times I wonder where Ryan found the other two. It's like he said, give two of the biggest knuckleheads you know

[@brandonholsather2171]

The 223 actually works great on pronghorn and whitetail deers.

[@Storms4567]

Love the content from this Podcast. So grateful you guys create this content. Very entertaining.

[@VortexNation]

We appreciate ya tuning in, my friend!

[@Therionx]

Another great Podcast guys thanks for all the great info

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for tuning in!

[@mattyv7499]

We call the 17HMR the popcorn gun, because when you hit a rabbit they make a pop 😂.

[@LuckyClaxton]

Love the shaw shank quote mark! Haha

[@varmintermagazine]

4.6 necked down to .172" = The .17VHA (Varmint Hunters Association). Great little round!

[@meyrrr007]

I know this an older cast but on the lady bug comment. The Germans actually went with the comparison in the VW hoping to capitalize on the beetle's physiological ability to defeat air and wind drag far beyond its physical ability and due to the fact the impact structural capability of the lady bug is over 20 times what its small size should be able to handle. Amazing little creatures actually. Carry on and great pod cast. Cheers everyone/

[@mojomike3913]

Thanks! Way to go guys. Now I need a new rifle. 17 Hornet, CZ527 Varmint, plus an optic. You just cost me a couple grand.

[@billyarnold5467]

I have one it's so accurate you will not believe your eyes. You will not be disappointed

[@mojomike3913]

@@billyarnold5467 you aren't helping. Anybody want to trade for a Thompson 1927A1?

[@Joeatsaco69]

Loved the end. I need one of those. A reloadable 17

[@uMalice]

I love this topic. Thanks for coming back to the 17 hornet. ( I love that cartridge!) No mention of the .14 squirrel? BTW, .open the flash hole and 22 pellet in a hornet or .223 rem primer only (20" barrel) make amazing trapping dispatching solutions. Also, check out primer only loadings for 17 hornet . Ladybug guys look into the 22 CCM.

[@we2968]

Fantastic show, loved it. Almost passed it by because longer vids don't interest me, but I am glad I caught this one.

[@stephencooper5040]

The 2mm kolibri seems like one of those “poker table” guns. If I understand correctly, usually meant for shooting at targets that would be VERY close and... under the table as it were.

[@mattwheeler6474]

All the Calhoun 19s or 14s are still kicking in some circles.

[@iBleedStarsAndBars]

17HMR my favorite squirrel sniper round

[@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649]

You must not eat them. I only use gamepoints or fmj's and head shoot only. Head-on angled shots can be iffy for saving the front shoulder area. Love the cartridge but rarely tree rat hunt with it. REALLY want to snag a .17HM2 to round out my .17 rimfire collection.

[@iBleedStarsAndBars]

@@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649 I eat as many as I can kill. I use 12 guage early season. When the leaves fall I also use CCI 20 grain game points.

[@jefferyjackson6935]

The 5mm Remington Magnum is a great round. I love my Remington 591.

[@hugosalceda1973]

I was about to get piss off till the insert cut , couldn't believe that you would forget the fist of it's kind..MR. Peter otto Ackley's .17 Ackley hornet". He was the first inventor of the .17 cal/.172 diameter bullet made in his shop, by Ackley him self.. Or the other best of the sweet 20's the 20 Ackley by tod kindler...and the james Calhoun .20 badger.. You guy need to make another episode for these.

[@philr182]

Love shooting 22lr, still cheap and fun plinking. And popping in the CMMG conversion bolt into an AR, shoot that platform all day for what a half dozen 5.56 mags would cost... and I don't feel guilty spending the money to put holes in paper.

[@religionispoison6838]

17 remington has accounted for many kangaroos , dogs ,foxes , cats and even pigs with the right placed shot .

[@cams.3102]

The Colibri round was in Battlefield 1. It was a meme for sure. Getting a kill with that gun was an achievement.

[@faxmeabeer]

Found your podcast this weekend. Been hunting and reloading and shooting my whole life from Oregon and Nevada. Love what your doing. Prefer the long form, the 10min stuff leaves me wanting more. Lister request: revisit the 10min topics in the long format and cover "ethical shooting" min required energy/fps for bullet construction for antelope to elk. Theory debate on exit penetration vs "energy dump. Love catching up though.

[@rcosg542yt]

I know alot of folks who would love to see you guys do a video on all the 6mm prs cartridges. The 6mm revolution... go over the factory and wildcat options, how it evolved here from the 308 days and why. The 6 dasher, 6cm, 6bra, 6xc etc... and now the 6mm arc! Will that have a big place in prs soon?

[@MaxWray111]

Lewis and Clark's Giradoni air rifle was designed in 1779 by Bartolomo Giradoni. Also known as the Windbushe(wind rifle), it was in service with the Austrian Empire from 1780-1805. A sheet metal canister held enough compressed air for 30 shots. The rifle was issued with 3. It took 1500 strokes with a hand pump to refill one. A spring-loaded magazine held 20 round balls. It came in both .46 and .51 caliber, 146 & 201 grain respectively, both at about 500 fps. It was said to be lethal to 125 yards.

[@oscarb4240]

Gents, waited the whole time to hear how 17WSM compared to 17HMR. Any chance we can make that a 10 minute talk at least? Keep up the good work!

[@justingibbons2696]

17 wsm is gnarly

[@maverickpaladin4155]

@@justingibbons2696 gnarly good or gnarly bad?

[@58harwood]

WSM blows chunks! Limited ammo and it all sucks! IMO. 😁

[@maverickpaladin4155]

It's supposed to be the most powerful of the rimfires.

[@justingibbons2696]

@@maverickpaladin4155 both really. The fact that it has such a high amount of muzzle energy for a rimfire is pretty incredible. Unfortunately my hunting experiences have led me to believe that ultimately the bullets are just too small and too light to be viable on anything larger than groundhogs. 22wmr is much better for yote and general predator because of the larger diameter and higher bullet weights.

[@plisken3050]

I have had the ruger single 6 that shoots both 22LR and 22 Mag and a 22mag Marlin lever action seance the 70s and used hollow points. Back in the day I trapped all winter long as a hobby to make extra money I would make on the upper end of 3k a year, shot one of the biggest Bobcats I have ever seen at over 200 yards in the ear no damage to the pelt. Ya I loved my 22Mags

[@justme294]

Yes! If you build it, we will be there 🥃cheers!

[@garyalsipjr.6528]

17 mach 2 is definitely my favorite. I find my self grabbing that for small game 95 percent of the time over the .22 or .17 hmr.

[@huttonb123]

No mention of .17 Hornet. That should have a cartridge talk of its own!

[@JamesWillmus]

I love my little Save 17HMR. Three years after purchasing it I’m using the gun to get a 14 year old up to speed on shooting. The only thing I’m missing is a step between that and my 270 win. That’s where something like a 243 or a 6mm rifle comes in.

[@20020x]

In speaking with Bo Clarke in 2000; he was once tasked with defeating the first rendition of the Kevlar helmet. At 50 meters with a very pointy lathe turned 30gr solid gilding metal bullet out of a necked down 22 Hornet at whatever velocity it will produce. It would go through the helmet like it was a melon.

[@thomasls1276]

It's okay, Jim, your pun wasn't lost on me. Those tiny bore bar-guns would make great...bar-gains also.

[@myname7654321]

I love my 204 Ruger. 40gn VMAX favorite weight

[@timsmithoutdoors]

.218 bee is a rocket. It’s a 40gr bullet going just under 3000fps. Several manufacturers made it in a bolt action configuration also.

[@alby-oy4nc]

U guys should neck the 6.5 BC down to 17 and call it the Lady Buggenstien. Lol. Great videos. Keep them coming

[@linkbond08]

59:00 "so here we are, finding a way to put it back in" The story of my life.

[@joseywales9101]

I wonder why the 17 WSM is so underrated.

[@JohnTheRecoilJunkie]

No lie, I was watching the first podcast with bearded Mark, and before even seeing him, I thought he sounded a bit smarter than usual. He's always been a lot smarter than he gives himself credit for, but I swear his beard has spare brain cells.

[@brianmartin8963]

Better barrels have made issues with fouling way less for the 17 Remington . It's one of my favorite varmint rifles , I have 5 different rifles chambered in 17 Remington!

[@hugosalceda1973]

I also think that the .17 Remington long version is the best in the .17 cal world.. And it enjoys the pedestal trade mark as the little cartridge that can!... It's on par with my 220 swift in drop out to 377 yards..if wind permits.

[@ditchdigger93]

I had a 5MM magnum long ago and wish I'd never traded it off. I may be wrong, but I think it was made for two years and mine was a bolt action Reminton rifle. I know where there are two boxes in a local Gunshop at a reasonable price if anyone has one and cannot find ammo for it. Big Ideas Gun and Pawn, Mound City Ks. Do your research and give them a call if you need some ammo for yours. I'm sure Gary will fix you up. I've got two rifles in .17HMR and love them, a couple of friends of mine have .17 Winchester Magnums and they really put a coyote on the ground. Not that my HMR's won't do the same.

[@nataliedeyton6829]

After buying a .17 wsm I have never touched my .22’s again ... haven’t shot a .22 in about 3 years

[@Anschutz270]

Same for me after buying a .22 Hornet.

[@michaelltaylor5149]

I have a .17 hmr LH Savage, and a Taurus tracker in.17 hmr. So far they are Tack Drivers and taken up to coyotes.

[@freespirit5481]

Savage bmag 17wsm with 20, 25gr!! Prairie dogs at 250 easy!

[@masone4589]

I’d love to hear about the Valkyrie and 22 Nosler. Seem pretty perfect for yotes

[@SnipeU696]

Great episode, thank you. How about one on powders?

[@billycollins1757]

3 different .222 fellas. And 1970 gave birth to the 5mm REM.Mag and the Remington model 591 and 592. According to the third page in my the American Rifleman magazine from April 1970.

[@coreymerrill3257]

One book called " cartridges of the world " will fill in much of those major knowledge gaps . .20 tactical, practical, varget( powder company) target . That book doesn't have everything but it has far more than the average person knows about.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

I cant believe they did not talk about one of the newest 22s that is highly successful. The 22TCM. It is 223 Remington cased but shortened for pistol use. Invented by a guy in Kansas sold to Rock Island Armory to produce. The US version of a 5.7, It beats the 5.7 speed at over 2000fps out of a 5"-1911, and is pennies per round, vs the overpriced 5.7 ammo. Reloadable, and uses the same mag as their 9mm, and in RIA 1911's holds 17+1 in 22tcm and 9mm. The best part is the insanley loud report and fireball!😂 The best thing I did was look at Hornady's reloading manual before I went to buy a Ruger 5.7. I discovered thee 22TCM! The amount of money saved in ammo alone from 22TCM vs 5.7 for me, is incredible!

[@bryantbutlermf]

Thank you

[@MrBhowren]

When I was a kid, I remember hearing my dad talk about killing critters with a .219 zipper. This cartridge had decent velocity didn't it. Wondering why someone hasn't reintroduced it for a bolt gun instead of a lever gun? What are your thoughts? Just too many with better velocity these days? If it came from the .30-30 wouldn't it be somewhat cheap to load and reproduce?

[@cartridgetalks]

Very interesting! But i have some addition from Russia:) 1. 7.62x39 is not the parent case for 5.45x39. 5.45 is a new case, it has smaller diameter 2. Russians first used in biathlon 6.5x54R cartridge (necked down 7.62x54 cartridge), and after that 5.6x39 (.220 russian) 3. 2mm Kalibri was used like saloon gun, to shoot paper targets inside home 4. You forget to discus sabot cartridges with flechettes

[@Joeatsaco69]

I love my Savage 17HMR bull barrel for tack driving at 100. I can hit at 200 but I am not confident in penetration. I just hate the magazine. But it is still a great rifle for small critters.

[@jeffward8278]

Daisy made a 22 caseless rifle, that the propellant was attached to the base of the bullet.

[@justinlowe8038]

17 WSM 3000fps rim fire round derived from a ram setter nail gun round by Winchester. Pretty well died on the vine due to junk savage B-17 rifles . Ruger made a better offering in the 77/17 . Chambered in 17 WSM . The 17 WSM truly brings rimfire close to center fire performance. Another not mentioned was the 17 squirrel. 17 squirrel is 22 hornet shortened and necked to 17 cal . Cooper arms as mentioned chambers 17 squirrel. The 17 squirrel and 17 WSM are close in velocity and performance only major difference is one rimfire and other center fire .

[@jleighn1210]

You must not own a bmag. Actually i call it my lazer..

[@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649]

Won't part with my B-mag.... damn thing is amazing.

[@jacobwilbert1018]

.22tcm, the 5.7 killer that slipped by everybody!

[@lrlapua8035]

IF only someone made a decent rifle for the round, the armscor ammo is junk, have to reload for any good grouping, seen the armscor ammo have 400fps variances and even had a few blowup in chamber, luckilyy rifle was not hurt.

[@jacobwilbert1018]

@@lrlapua8035 Yea, i have never shot any factory ammo for it but i know armscor ammo can be ehh. I think if it had more industry support you would see much much more innovation around 22tcm, there is no sammi info for it so nobody will go near it. I would love to get a blank barrel for the keltec s2k n cut it with a 22tcm reamer, that is my dream anyway. But yea the lack of available platforms and industry support sucks but i find the round interesting n fun to play with. 👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@lrlapua8035]

@@jacobwilbert1018 I like the round for sure and would reinvest in it if Ruger or Savage would make a rifle...or CZ..

[@CrimeVid]

Don’t forget that the Austrian Army had a sniper corps using military air rifles, pre Lewis and Clarke. and some of the heavy air canes could blow a 3/4” hole in you !

[@lukeelliott2183]

Like here in Australia we had 303-22 which was like 1930s wild cat I mean there was plenty more like 303 necked down 25/ 270/35 but 303 necked down to a 22cal unreal I own a 303-25 been looking for the 22 tho

[@lukassawatzky604]

I feel like I need a chart for all this nomenclature.

[@cnew79]

The why for most of these videos/caliber development is cost vs tooling. .177 because the tooling to cut barrels was available. Tooling only changes when demand out weights supply.

[@joearledge]

You an 100% absolutely reload rimfire rounds, it's just a metric pain in the butt. The best option going down that road is to buy new primed brass for it, as opposed to going through the trouble of re-priming fired brass.

[@danielthompson3837]

Ryan/Team, you should do a Ten Minute on history of the .222 Magnum- the "loser" of the ".223" competition (.224 Springfield vs. .222 Special).

[@jmkhenka]

the CZ455, and 457, 512, are all 22WMR action-size rifles. So you dont get a smaller rifle or action with 22LR in them. Everything is basicly the same between 22lr and 22wmr/17hmr in regards to "reload speed". Its not like the 22wmr/17hmr is 1" longer :) but i prefer centerfire, 22 Hornet is my newest love. 35 grain bullet at near 3200 fps or 40 grain in near 3000.

[@nk-dw2hm]

I know someone who loved reloading for 22 hornet for 30 years, fell in love with 17hmr and hasn't looked back

[@bryantbutlermf]

I’m a wmr man til i die

[@bandit848]

According to Wikipedia, 2mm Kolibri ballistics are a 3gr projectile going 660fps for a "devastating" 3ft•lbf

[@wambolt1212]

Holy shit, thats Jason Bourne....

[@randalldenham5127]

I believe if the 17hm2 had came out before the 17hmr it would have become the popular cartridge

[@camhester4251]

my Savage bolt gun in 17 hmr is my do all rifle , love it at 100 yards with Hornady 17 hmr vmax dime size groups at 100 yrds three rnd group

[@markmadsen6828]

trouble is, no one loads 17mk2 anymore.. worse its a rimfire so forget handloads. Kimber made 1911 conversion kits for it, albeit for a short time. Seems like just another flash in the pan to me, but i never have shot or used any of the 17RF cartridges. If you don't taste it how could you know,? I just thought it didn't gain me anything I didn't already have in a hypersonic 22LR or a 22mag or even a 22Hornet which is a CF cartridge. Great video though and really fun to talk about..

[@Velocity4000fps]

17 fireball is my personal favorite.

[@eternallogic6394]

Expensive and almost impossible to find

[@Velocity4000fps]

@@eternallogic6394 Stock up when you find it, i have more than enough.

[@shootingatshadow]

In my 204 Ruger, I would get 4024 fos average with 30.5gr BLC2 and a 32gr Hornady VMAX.

[@irishiwazdrunk]

the 14 Flea looks absolutely ridiculous

[@MrT13]

I call my 17 hmr the fly swatter. Federal black tips. With can. 4 oz trigger in just a savage93 with a little work. Grab a 223 brass off the ground and put a half a piece of bacon up at 50 yard line... good luck. Your results may vary.

[@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649]

Can do that with my pcp air rifle at 75 yards.

[@MrT13]

@@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649 do what exactly? …

[@michaelmcatee221]

There’s a caliber for every thousandth in that range; .228 bee, .219 zipper, .220 swift, .221 fireball, .222 rem, .223 rem, .224 valk

[@jasonhumphreys261]

Sub calibers are super fun. Plug in my 17ppc data to a ballistics calculator for fun. Berger 37g VLD at 4050fps .348bc. Obscene performance.

[@justme294]

Franklin Armory has F-17 shoots a .17wsm. In a AR style rifle.

[@eternallogic6394]

So does the Jard J72

[@765outdoors]

.17 wsm! Most powerful rimfire that failed lol

[@Petethepigkilla]

I love my .17 mach 2. Funny though, y'all didn't really get into the sub-calibers under .17 caliber. There is a whole rabbit hole of .14, .12, and even .10 caliber.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Had an Encore barrel in .17 Fireball. Very accurate, quiet, and easy to reload but had to have the fouling cleaned every 50 rounds or so to maintain 0.5 MOA. It’s a good compromise between the .17 Hornet and .17 Rem.

[@troythalheimer160]

Aside from Forgetting the newest 17, 2words, raging hornet...

[@brianpencall4882]

5mm Remington Magnum ran pressures similar to 17 WSM.

[@aynjeleyes]

If you are Going varmint hunting the 17 WSM 17 Hornet, 22 250 and the 204 all get play but the first 2 get the most action even for the long arse shots

[@tonydevich7937]

There fast and accurate

[@coleerwin5702]

I wonder if they know anything about .22 squirrel based on the .22 hornet case

[@njpotts007]

And you use the CCI Stinger in a stock Thompson TC/R .22LR Semi-Auto rifle?

[@mkshffr4936]

Wouldn't it be cool to bring back something like the 5.75 Velodog for gallery/plinking rifles?

[@davidmunro3910]

I think the MP7 was used as a body armour defeater

[@robertbutton9142]

I have the whole family of 17's my favorite is the the 17 hornet

[@eternallogic6394]

You don't have the 17 WSM though

[@aaronunterseher1627]

I've always wanted a .17 hornet... sadly not a ton of rifles chambered in it

[@250smacks]

Is there any 20caliber rimfire calibers? Something to bridge the 22 and 17 ? Gain a little more speed than 22 and more energy than the 17. Or am I overthinking like normal

[@richardbruyere9523]

Still no show on 257 Wby!!! Love your shows guys. You have hit most of my guns - except the 257 Wby.

[@HunterHooks19]

You need to do a talk on 350 legend and other straight wall cartridges

[@brenn330]

Need a ten minute talk: 22 mag vs 17hmr