Ep. 86: How the Thickness of top and back matters! (violin, viola, cello and doublebass)

[@ClauGarcis-w5f]

Thanks for shearing. I wold like you to tell us your thinking about "il cannone", in relation to it's thicknes, top and back. Thanks very much again.

[@charalamposdafermos8236]

That was great! Eye opener. Thank you!

[@EdgarRuss]

You are welcome, Charalampos! See you on my next live Q&A in my Patreon Channel. @t​ all the best Edgar

[@Katherine-j39]

By the way, could you comment why the bottom plate is always made of two imaging pieces glued together? why not use a single piece of wood to make it easier

[@mykofreder1682]

If I get down to doing a violin (not from scratch), this is good general information that will be easy to remember.

[@EdgarRuss]

Of course. And sign up to my Patreon Channel and you will make a great sounding instrument. @t​ have fun and enjoy Edgar

[@TnSn5]

What's the difference on the violins that have protruded backs and front shapes from regular ones

[@mikeconcino4022]

Thank you, Edgar. Really interesting discussion.

[@EdgarRuss]

Thanks, you are welcome. ER

[@TNungesser]

Edgar. Do you carve the F holes in the top plate prior to finishing the thickness of the top plate to determine the right sound? By the way did Stradivai use chemicals or minerals in his woods to enhance the sound?

[@josephmagil1149]

Many interesting points, Maestro. Thank you!

[@EdgarRuss]

Thanks for your comment. ER

[@AlessandroBorsa]

Grazie ! sempre molto interessante !!!

[@kendyboston4225]

Wonderful videos , thank you . How do you feel about plate tuning ?

[@charleshurst4362]

i started watching after seeing you on j. humphries' channel. good stuff.

[@EdgarRuss]

Jonathan is a good friend. We were talking the other day that we should make a video together in the following week. enjoy Edgar

[@sergiodamian2147]

Thank you, always have interestings things to teach!

[@EdgarRuss]

thanks for your comment Edgar

[@CristianFatu]

Great video Edgar! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for all you do for our community.

[@EdgarRuss]

You are welcome. It is my pleasure to help you here. Edgar

[@HenJack-vl5cb]

Wonderful-thank you!

[@kangousingh286]

Thank you sir for advising ......from India 🙏

[@TitofBee]

Hi Edgar, great video, thanks, Please, what about ribs and corners' aim in sound transmission? Can we talk about vibration absorbtion or vibrarion mixing of both top and bottom Vibrations for ribs and corners? Is the bottom plate a power and spring reservoir for the top plate through the sound post? Is there somewhere in the violin a piece that is a vibration regulator? can we use densities or thicknesses assymetrical designs to let the vibrations start to sound better? or have more sustain?.. thanks for your answers, maybe on some different videos ? Chris

[@scottyhughes9179]

so interesting, thank you.

[@ErikWilliamsviolin]

People are lucky they have access to this information for free!

[@ireneneumann7808]

How do you calculate where th violin peg holes are drilled

[@pianodesu]

Can cheap chinese violin like Stentor Standard be regraduated and made a little bit thinner in plates to sound more resonant? I know that the lower density wood may not handle it but im curious if its gonna sound better. Lets say remove 25% more of the wood and keep the proportions of the arching. Maybe it will stay within the boundary of wood still being stable.

[@charleshurst4362]

i'm a cellist, i wanted to see a cello...sniffle. cool subject! i wish i could find a good luthier...

[@EdgarRuss]

Here I am! www.violincellomaker.com www.violincellomaker.shop Edgar

[@joopbraakhekke5227]

@@EdgarRuss hahaha also a good salesman

[@arashamed]

Thanks for this great information, but i find that the strad model Messiah 1716 is betwen 2 and 2,2 mm on the topp under the bridge, what you say on this, im making this model now, do you recomment this thikness? thanks.

[@jma8352]

i built an f5 in 1984 and has a great sound but on the thin side. like you said but the top sunk in some but still projects nicely. also on the last mandolin i just strung up last week i mm higher ribs seem to give me more bass. dose that make seance? Thank you for your expertise

[@schubiduba1]

But how do you know at carving if it is too thick or too thib?

[@allenw.3521]

How long does it take for a new violin to play in or settle in? thank you.

[@EdgarRuss]

Depends on climate and playing! But generally within one to two years things are stable and become over the coming years only better and better. But a great instrument has to sound well from the very first day. The difference is actually at the very every beginning of every tone.

[@Tostra1997]

Very interesting to hear your thoughts on this topic. I wonder, what would you say the margins are for both violin and cello for "too thin" and "too thick"? I know it depends a lot on the individual piece and model, but taking 2,7mm for a violin top as a starting point, do you know the approximate ranges? Cheers, Tobias

[@EdgarRuss]

Hi Tobias, the range is more or less 1mm on. cello on. a violin 0,5mm Se you at our next Q&A at my Patreon Channel @t​ Edgar

[@brahmsbratsche]

Thanks again Edgar for this new video. One question: do you use regulary the caliper or, considering the number of violin you have done, you use the fingers touch only?

[@EdgarRuss]

Very good question. Actually it is true that the more I keep on working the less I use the calliper; but without I couldn't work. I use it to get things to a certain point and than when I am coming closer where it should be I trust completely my masters touch. Have fun Edgar

[@laurencelance586]

I hear that this wood is aged a minimum of this many years from one place and that many years from some other place. Also that the maker uses wood only from this country or that country. In your experience, given the same quality of wood for different sources, how much difference does the orgin or aging of the wood make vs that of the work of the violin maker?

[@carpetbrown1115]

yep, subscribed and bell pressed :) question - i see all those tops and bottoms out there. i have heard that when selecting wood for a violin, the top and back must match in sound qualities. not sure how its done, but supposedly tapping on the wood is the way to go. do you use that method? or just make a lot of tops and backs and then when u put them together, using tuning techniques, you match them ?

[@李湛元]

Dear Edgar, thank you for your content! They are amazing! I often hear people say after playing for a while, the sound of the new violin/viola gets even better. It is almost if we have to break in the instrument. Is that true in your opinion? If so, how does the improvement happen? Thank you!

[@petsfuntrains]

gracias Edgard soy violinista y estoy construyendo mi primer violín y tus datos son muy importantes, quería preguntare que tengo un dilema en cual es el mejor componente para un sellador antes del barniz? he leído de muchas recetas ( clara de huevo, goma laca etc etc) según tu experiencia que puede ser mejor que no afecte la conducción del sonido y que finalmente el barniz no contribuya a eso? muchas gracias!

[@EdgarRuss]

Ovviamente influenza il risultato finale. Se ti iscrivi al mio canale Patreon da VIP tier puoi scaricarti tutte le ricette. Delle mie vernici ed anche della preparazione che ci metto. @t​ a presto Edgar

[@petsfuntrains]

@@EdgarRuss grazie Edgard!!

[@Slottech1965]

Nice

[@toja8784]

I am really interested where you learned this profession and how it looks like :) my second question is about the cello. Are the smaller sizes of this instrument quiter from the regular one. Is it really bad when the adult person stay with the size 3/4 or 7/8? What do you think about this producents of cello: Höfner; Yamaha; Gewa. Thank you for your videos:) Best Regards from Germany.

[@EdgarRuss]

Smaller Sound Corpus results in a smaller sound volume . That's why I prefer to make the 7/8 cello as a Ruggieri which is larger as a traditional Stradivari. I think that the perfect size depend on your hand span size and not from your age or other specifications. You feel more comfortable with a 7/8 or a 3/4 so than it is yours. The violinmaker has to make it sound as you need it. I just have finished a Scala Perfetta violoncello 7/8 cello. Check out here: www.violincellomaker.shop all the best from Cremona Edgar

[@pauljmeyer1]

I find it interesting that the refinements to design made by Giuseppe Guarnerius are now being used more often in new instruments. It is sad that he met such difficulties as to shorten his life.

[@conradgittins4476]

I have heard said that the violins of Stradivari and others were good from the beginning because their customers would have needed them to be. I am inclined to believe that and now I tend not to subscribe to the notion that the older, the better. With my violins I have noticed that they seem to become smoother in character and maybe more even, but not louder as they play in. As for thicknessing of the plates, I certainly know what happens when I have made them too thin. The instrument does sound loud but it is also most unpleasant to play. We do learn from our mistakes however, as annoying as they are (and expensive!).

[@TitofBee]

hi Conrad and Edgar, can we talk about wood' fibers that are loosing their stiffness while getting older? If played hard and vigorously for a long time?

[@Katherine-j39]

only 3mm on the top plate? no wonder it has to be arched, plus a bass bar to support it from collapsing under string tension. 😀

[@Katherine-j39]

I think the optimal thickness has to be determined through try-and-error, and also depends on the timber used. 3mm work best for spruce from northern italy, but may not work best for spruce from other regions in Europe

[@MelloCello7]

I would LOVE to hear more of how the backplate shapes the character of the sound! I've always heard that the back plate is always thicker but I never knew why? Whats up with the tuning of the back plate? what does it mean vs the tuning of the front plate and how does these concepts fit together? thank you for posting and for all of your help!

[@RosssRoyce]

Thanks for nice insights! It’s funny, on this viol I made ( instagram.com/p/CL5OQ1tK_H0/?igshid=927136ece2yw ), to play it not to become a luthier, I left the thicknesses of the inner parts of the top thicker than what a viol should have (I left them 5~6 mm, instead of the historical 3~4 mm). And this resulted in sound resonating longer after you stop bowing - on the viol we keep fingers on fret like on a lute after action. I feel it as if the thicker mass of material is prone to resonate while the thinner is quick-ending, loud, dull percussive thud. The thin top in my spirit should feel like a stretched paper, like a membrane ( a banjo lol). At the same time I made edges of the whole top as thin as the historical 2 mm, maybe this provides the amplification of the sound. My épicéa slice of wood is also cut like in the past: not pointed to the center of the tree but parallel, I feel this gives a lovely projecting two halves. I’ve seen many old instruments being cut this way, even with branches traces in them 😆. I’m making a normal viol shape one now too, before I receive my real bass viola da gamba from England. It’s a fascinating journey! Cheers!

[@EdgarRuss]

Interesting. Now you should make one with the correct thickness. Without offending, I mean you need a little from everything. Thicknesses are not 1 or 2 mm more or less. It's about 2 or 3 tenth of a millimetre less ore more. all the best and thanks for your detailed comment here. ER

[@peterspagnolo2505]

What is the origin of your accent sir? Does not sound italian. Thankyou. I am intrigued by sound.

[@mkdijkstra4855]

Austria

[@openfabpdx]

Thanks for this one. I am working on graduating plates on my Modular Fiddle, and hearing you speak generally on the topic is more helpful than studying plate thickness charts. :-)