Ep122: Mysteries of Dependent Origination - Leigh Brasington

In this episode I am joined by Leigh Brasington, Buddhist meditation teacher to discuss his new book ‘Dependent Origination and Emptiness: SODAPI’.
Leigh lifts the lid on his writing process, including how he overcame severe writer’s block to complete the book that his students had been asking for years, and shares his reasoning for making the book free.
Leigh reveals why he considers the dependent origination to be at the heart of the Buddha’s teaching, and traces different interpretations of the doctrine throughout the Buddhist literature. Leigh draws on the works of Nagarjuna to discuss emptiness, and levels a critique of the teaching of reincarnation which he calls an ‘immortality project’.
Leigh explains why he translates ‘dukkha’ as the hippy slang word ‘bummer’, how he came up with the acronym SODAPI - Streams of Dependently Arising Processes Interacting, and offers medium and long term strategy advice for how to practice this powerful method to achieve the liberation of promised in Buddhism.
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www.guruviking.com/ep122-myst...
Also available on KZbin, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
01:03 - Leigh’s new book
02:24 - Why the book is free
06:00 - Dharma teacher income
09:35 - What is dependent origination?
13:21 - Inspired by teachers
18:00 - The writing process
20:15 - Overcoming writer’s block
23:00 - Dukkha is a bummer
30:36 - Various sutta presentations on dependent originations
37:55 - Dependencies not causes
43:04 - Consciousness and the body
45:25 - Critique of religious immortality projects
49:12 - kāmataṇhā (NB: Leigh meant to use the word bhavataṇhā, not kāmataṇhā)
52:35 - Moment to moment model
55:17 - Buddhism without reincarnation?
01:01:37 - Jakatta tales and the tulku system
01:08:56 - Short and long term practice strategies
01:16:27 - Is mindfulness of vedana enough to uproot ignorance?
01:19:56 - Nagarjuna and the implications of the emptiness doctrine
01:23:43 - How did Leigh come up with SODAPI?
01:29:07 - Sañña and the Honeyball Sutta
01:32:27 - How to practice dependent origination for jhana meditators
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Previous episodes with Leigh:
- www.guruviking.com/?s=BRASINGTON
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To find out more about Leigh, visit:
- leighb.com
Read Leigh’s new book ‘Dependent Origination and Emptiness: SODAPI’:
- sodapi.leighb.com/download.htm
For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com/
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Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

[@Fakery]

I'm almost finished reading! Looking forward to this companion piece :)

[@GuruViking]

Great timing!

[@MarkDaviesThailand]

What are you reading?

[@GuruViking]

@@MarkDaviesThailand I think @Fakery is referring to Leigh's new book on Dependent Origination, which is available for free download (there's a link in the episode description).

[@MarkDaviesThailand]

@@GuruViking Thats just what I was hoping for. Many thanks. 🙏

[@MarkBoolootian]

I shall not cease meditating until I awaken, or this podcast airs. Whichever comes first.

[@4ev3rmore]

Once you cease meditating, you shall awaken 😁

[@supremeknowing]

Inducing avija? Not good! Use meditation to get enlightenment after enlightenment no need meditation anymore. Or else all would already be enlightenment.

[@leekrogulski2415]

Looking forward to this, any student of Ayya Khema gets my attention 🙂

[@MarkDaviesThailand]

Absolutely stoked. I know that Leigh has been planning to write a book on dependent origination - this really is going to be a blue riband interview.

[@fineasfrog]

"What the Buddha is actually teaching is a way to stop getting bummed out by the negativity." This is a good way to say it. Negativity arises in our experience. When we get "bummed out" about the negativity arising in our experience in the moment, what has happened? The mind or person has deemed (labelled) the arising of sensation as negative based not on "pure experiencing of what is arising" aka "pure awareness" or "choiceless awareness" but based on the automatic response of memory that labels it as "bummer" and we think it is something we should try to avoid. In avoiding it we only partially experience it, that is to say, only through the label of memory. In prematurely buying into what the memory is telling us with its concept/label, we don't actually sense and feel the experience as it is prior to memory coloring it. A concept or label from the past is patterning it as negativity or dukkha so we are not actually experiencing our experience as it is. We are unknowingly re-imposing the pattern of dukkha from memory on our consciousness. We can learn to allow for the possibility that it is not as it seems, not just what our memory label is telling us it is. We shield ourselves from experiencing the dukkha as it is at the 'bodily felt-sense level'. With whole body awareness or a global sensation of our presence, we can begin to see the movement of mind-memory that labels our experience as this or that and colors our experience as positive or negative. We react to dukkha before we actually experienced it as it is. (This is why the Buddha said: "I teach only dukkha and the cessation of Dukkha.) In other words it is the complete and actual re-cogniton of dukkha in the moment that can and does lead eventually to the cessation of dukkha. Ordinarily, we believe the impressions in memory when they tell us dukkha is negative. It is only the past impression in memory that makes us think and feel it is so. This does not mean that we are to deny dukkha. That is what the mind ordinarily does. This just keeps the dukkha repeating itself. One teacher in the book "Steps To Freedom" p.133 put it like this: "Do not deny anger; do not deny fear. do not deny pain. (In other words, do not deny dukkha.) Denying them will not do any good at all. Accept them as they are (so you can see them as they are and not only through the colorization of an impression from memory), and accept that they will go on until" the cessation of dukkha that can occur as dukkha is re-cognized for what it is and not just re-patterned into dukkha or further dukkha by the impressions of past memory. To know dukkha as it is, "the first word is always "Yes." We can pause and be still and grounded for a moment and say "Yes". Yes there is pain, yes there is anger, yes there is rejection, and yes it is so. (It is the same as if we are sitting and allowing the breath to flow through us as whole body awareness.) It becomes acceptance and recognition of the pain of the world (Krishnamurti: You are the world.) without excess sentimentality or ungrounded emotionality that can accompany thought-forms. There can be action but action proceeds from acceptance and a kind of groundedness we can learn from sitting and allowing the flow of breath as we come into direct contact with the bodily felt-sense of our simple global presence. This can allow us to see how memory conditions or colors our experience and now we don't have to succumb to its partial and mainly false interpretations via thought-forms and their associative chains of thought. " '

[@basketballTaco]

That's really insightful to me. Can I ask the full title and author of the book you quote?

[@fineasfrog]

@@basketballTaco Yes, the book is "Steps To Freedom: Discourses on the Alchemy of the Heart" (1983) by Reshad Feild A new edition of this book came out around a year or so ago by a group of his senior pupils. Thanks for asking; the author died in 2016.

[@scalenescott]

Super excited for this one!

[@GuruViking]

It's a good one!

[@mrod111]

Would love to hear Leigh, Delson, and Daniel on a show together for obvious reasons. They’re much less similar than Daniel and Dhammarato, and so I would expect a very interesting debate if asked what the Buddha taught and what is possible with Buddhist meditation, along with covering rebirth, powers, and realms.

[@martinspiering5817]

Great conversation, both, and excellent book, Leigh--thank you very much. The book makes the teachings of Dependent Origination very clear; its prose is personal, light, and very conversational, a sign of how much great care went into this extremely important work (and great addition to "Right Concentration"). I agree that Nargajuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika is extremely helpful for exploring emptiness and dependent origination--it's a dense read (and needs commentaries to be understandable) but well worth the effort imo. I think it helped me appreciate SODAPI even more than it would have, seeing how this clever concept weaves together expositions of Dependent Origination in both the suttas (such as Bahiya Sutta--one of my favourites, even as a non-Buddhist) and later works (such as Nagarjuna). I think the immortality project in Buddhism is likely an outgrowth, or counterweight, from the initial teachings of not-self/emptiness/DO. These teachings can be readily misunderstood among those just starting out and cause some practitioners to wrongly grab the "snake" of emptiness by the tail and get bit by the poison of nihilism (as Nagarjuna points out), possibly even leading them to abandon the practice ("if no one is really there, why bother?"). Skillfully grasping the concept of emptiness/DO (behind the head) to get medicine in the form of relief from suffering after realizing emptiness needs at first the confidence that there's "someone there" who can practice and experience the fruits. So some teachers perhaps overemphasized rebirth (referring only to the sense of self rather than a "person") to avoid students from descending into nihilism. But this came at the expense of having the pendulum swing too far into the other direction, instilling an erroneous sense of eternalism. Since time is also empty (as Nagarjuna demonstrates in MMK and can be explored and glimpsed in meditation) and if it helps in one's practice, one can let go of the idea of "past" lives and instead view them as "parallel" lives imo.

[@DustTown]

This is a rather profound comment. The key indeed lies in dialectic balance, flexibility of views, capacity to switch perspectives and meta-perspectives rather than seeing opposites as mere opposites, inconsistencies, or despair-inducing paradoxes.

[@erickramirez8428]

That tip about contemplating the 12 steps backwards did it for me, I never really got the gist of it until now

[@leekrogulski2415]

Love this channel, great job Steve!

[@katehathirat774]

Excellent questions asked and answered in this interview.

[@Honoringlife108]

Incredibly rich and helpful, both the podcast and Leigh's insightful reflections and teachings on the Dharma. Thanks! Addition: I'd also like to add that there is significant research on near-death experiences which could have interesting connections to Leigh's views on 'immortality projects'. I'd be curious to hear how he would interpret some of that research in light of his own views on mortality. One source could be Pim Van Lommel's work.

[@ryanahmed5615]

Wonderful, thank you to everyone

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

In the previous episode with Leigh Brasington he said that after the jhanas practice he practices dzogchen as insight meditation. Since there is probably no description either in books or on the internet of how to practice dzogchen and Leigh Brasington is such a master expositor would it please be possible to ask him in some future episode what are the instructions for dzogchen? Guru Viking, please, please, please.

[@hear-and-know]

All Dzogchen practitioners I know will tell you that you need a teacher to practice Dzogchen, to give empowerments, instructions etc., and also feedback as to whether or not you're in the right path. Though it would be really nice if it gets democratized :)

[@matth9558]

Leigh directs people who are interested in Dzogchen towards Tsoknyi Rinpoche, and doesn't share the instructions himself - the criteria to be a 'true' Dzogchen teacher are quite strict, and Leigh is respectful enough of the lineage not to go against that.

[@KencilJarman]

Lama Lena is om retreat just now. But check out her teachings on Dzogchen.

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

@@KencilJarman I would love to attend but I can't teleport myself accross the Atlantic ocean so far. 🙂

This was an amazing conversation. I entered the first jhana just by listening to it ;)

[@scalenescott]

Great interview and happy 5K subs! I love listening to Leigh because he's extremely focused on teaching practical Dharma - even when discussing his life.

[@GuruViking]

Thanks Scott! 🥳

[@williamcallahan5218]

Nicely done. Thanks guys.

[@atxchef4240]

Time for a Leigh, Delson discussion.

[@AngelRPuente]

Far out! Groovy is the new enlightment!

[@GGJJ-xg8hx]

Is there a Depend Origination between craving and dukkah or a Depend Origination between craving and the whole material world and emotions (it implies that we are creating reality with our desire)? Leigh Brasington talks about the first link but meditators that experience cessation make reference to the second link I mention.

[@jari2ampuh]

If we want to study dependent origination, it is very wise to listen the translation and exposition of the late Bhante Punnaji.

[@mattrousseau3121]

Is the book going to be published and sold in stores? I love Leigh's wrighting. He is my favorate.

[@szymborska]

27:00 How much does this have to do with sedentary, over-socialized, civilizations vs nomadic human social organizations? I often wonder if Buddhism is a cure for civilization, vs some innate suffering from being human. I often wonder what Lamas would say in the Amazon or Andes, I think they'd just nod, smile, and pass through- no work to be done here...

[@chadkline4268]

True spirituality is a revolt against all of material existence, because it is all corrupt and corrupting. All great sages were revolutionaries in their societies.

[@szymborska]

7:13 "Got to have yen if you want to get zen." Something I've heard in Buddhist circles. In a way, it's the opposite of missionary religion- imagine if pastors charged for a bible reading lol. It also means the people who want to study, really want to, and even if they have little to no money- and will find a way, like everyone else learning online or through books, and friendly chats with people on a similar path.

[@JudeMalachi]

I wish I wouldn't have watched this because now I have a lot less faith in Mr. Brasington's own experiential understanding than I did prior to it.

[@anandaji4075]

Miln III.5.7: Non-Release From Evil Deeds {Miln 72} The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, is there any being which transmigrates from one body to another?" "Certainly not, your majesty." "If, venerable Nagasena, there is no-one who transmigrates from one body to another, then would not one be released from evil deeds?" "Yes, your majesty. If one is not reborn, then one would be released from evil deeds. But indeed because one is reborn, your majesty, then one is not fully released from evil deeds." "Give me an analogy." "Just as, your majesty, if some man were to steal the mangos of another, would this be an offense worthy of punishment?" "Yes, venerable sir, it would be an offense worthy of punishment." "But, your majesty, since these mangos that he stole were not the same mangos that the other had planted, why would it be punishable?" "Venerable sir, they came into existence by means of those mangos that were planted, therefore it would be punishable." "Indeed just so, your majesty, it is by the deeds that one does in this mind-and-body, lovely or unlovely, that one is reborn in another mind-and-body, therefore one would not be fully released from evil deeds ." "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/miln/miln.3x.kell.html#miln-3-5-05

[@em-dy3hn]

"The cessation of bummers!" LOL!

[@eddygan325]

I believe Buddha want us to see the life as process, just like dependent origination , no self identity within it. Example, "because of feeling, Craving arises." But not "because of my feeling, my craving arises" See everything as process , without self identity of "I", "i am", then we can let go of attachment , this cause dukka unable to arises. However, i believe of recarnation and others realms etc. Without this 2, there is no point to become sotapana or even become enlightened. Once we die, there nothing anymore, no need to quit samsara, no need to avoid fall into bad realms, then why practice noble 8 fold path ? Just my 2 cent. Thanks for sharing the interview anywhere

[@eternal_psy]

Brilliant podcast! Regarding missing letter "e" at the end of SODAPI, why not "Streams Of Dependent Processes Interacting Everywhere"? :)

[@slobma7973]

I love the way Leigh approach and communicate Dharma, love the grounded common-sensical style. The subject of rebirth is a very important and controversial one, I totally respect what he says, I thought a great deal about his reasoning and also Culadasa's view on rebirth. Personally I don't agree with the "immortality project" reasoning. First, I think the Buddha, at the society level, was free to teach whatever he wanted. On my limited knowledge of the suttas I see a huge variety of teachers claiming many different views; some worship fire, some denied rebirth, one even lived as a dog for months rejecting any needs of the body and all of them were respected and had many students. There were no inquisition in India everybody was free to teach and follow whatever teacher they pleased, therefore claiming that the Buddha didn't really believe in past lives and only talk about it because people believe in it doesn't make sense to me. He clearly said, (paraphrasing) 'whatever the Tathagata teaches, he teaches from his own experience'. Of course we can take the conspiracy view of the manipulation and editing of the suttas, but then maybe he didn't mean the four noble truths either!. Second reason, so many of the wise people of the many cultures of the past, and all the buddhist accomplished practitioners have put the view of rebirth to the test and have validated it again and again in their own experience, it is not a view for them is their own experience. Third, the research of Ian Stevenson's team at University of Virginia on children with past-life memories, makes clear that after discarding all the possible explanations the only one left is that they are actually having memories of a past life. These are 3-6 year old children that start telling their memories as soon as they are able to talk, they don't have any "inmortality project" at that age. That is basically why I don't agree with Leigh on this point, but I am very grateful that he can freely express his view and made me reflect a lot about it. Looking forward to read his book. 🙏🙏🙏

[@crappycigar9665]

Fine fellow. Somehow i question that buddha would've posited anything like an orgination or a dependence. On which foundation do these concepts stand?

[@baizhanghuaihai2298]

Dogen unequivocally recommended poverty for dharma practitioners and freely giving the dharma. I appreciate his opinion.

[@mpavoreal]

That's fair as long as students are open to being as impoverished as mentors

[@matth9558]

Tiny nitpick - your show notes use a previous version of SODAPI, where the P stood for phenomena. Leigh has since changed it to Processes, because 'Phenomena' sound (potentially) more reified than Processes.

[@evandunbar5605]

500 nymphs sounds pretty good right about now

[@bassmonk2920]

It seems that this immortality concept and there is no reincarnation argument/contrast can coexist if the outcome is to increase ones efforts to realize emptiness....

[@mattrousseau3121]

I think Leigb might be awaken. He never claimed or insinuating he was.

[@Fakery]

Leigh do you believe in a conventional materialist/scientific worldview, or do you just speak from this perspective to relate to normal everyday people? (similar to how the Buddha taught using the conventional worldview of his time) Just a curiosity :) Really enjoyed the book, I learned a lot

[@kelsanglhamo6659]

Unfortunately, he subscribes to a materialistic worldview because he denies rebirth. That was categorically stated by him in the podcast.

[@marka2188]

@@kelsanglhamo6659 I think you are extrapolating too much. Not believing next life is when you realize that there is no ‘myself’ to reborn. We don’t know what happens to this life force when the physical body dies. Abhidhamma writers didn’t like this part so they came up with so many intellectual arguments to justify a bhava after death.

[@kelsanglhamo6659]

@@marka2188 That's because Buddha never taught about the three levels of mind in the Sutras. This author comes from the Theravada perspective. If you examine the process of going to sleep, dreaming and awakening in your own experience, you can approach the question of rebirth in a more experiential way and thus validate Buddha's tantric teachings. Clearly the mind doesn't cease to exist when we go to sleep, it just becomes more subtle. Whether awake, dreaming or asleep, mind is always associated with wind/prana which allows mind to "move" to its objects. This basis (mind + wind) is how we impute I or self. The definition of self is an "I" imputed on any of the five aggregates of body and mind. Yes, there is no self to be reborn, but there is no self to live this life either, is there? That doesn't mean the self is completely non-existent. Just as the mere name "self" exists and functions in this life whilst being completely unfindable, similarly the mere self takes rebirth from life to life. This is not a view adopted because we're scared of dying because the self of this life ceases completely and to all intents and purposes, we become a completely different person in the next life. But our karmic imprints take rebirth because they are stored within the mind. This understanding forms the basis for an ethical life since we cannot explain actions and their effects within the confines of one life. Only if you understand the big picture of the continuum of lives will belief in the law of karma influence you enough in your behaviour to overcome attachment to the eight worldly concerns, materialism in short. I hope this is clear for you :)

[@indikom]

Can I have a question? I have been meditating for 2 months. I meditate for an hour each day. For the past few days my mind has been wandering much more than usual for no reason. It looks like a setback has occurred in my meditation. Is this kind of setbacks common among meditation practitioners?

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

Here there are certainly more experienced adepts than me, but in my opinion it is perfectly normal. As Culadasa puts it, the only bad meditation is that one that we omitted. Sometimes I feel sick with the urge to vomit and sweat profusely during meditation. Last year I always saw nimitta, this year I see no nimitta at all. 🙂

[@indikom]

​@@mispanludensprinck5652 I guess my craving mind expects only progress in meditation :)) I looked up what is nimitta and looks like in this lifetime its not for me because I have aphantasia :))

[@VeritableVagabond]

Check out Stephen Procter and his MIDL teachings. He talks about this exact phenomena. Short answer: yes it's normal!

[@TheTTrickz]

@@indikom i don't think aphantasia will stop you as the nimitta is involuntary and replaces your literal vision, but everyone do not get them and they are not a necessity. I'm not the most qualified guy here either definitely but i'd say the setbacks are normal and usually if you practice through them you'll find your practice has progressed from what it was before them.

[@5piles]

what happens is youve developed a little sustained attention, but then are easily giving in to the temptation to use this acquired minor skill to daydream or brainstorm, since these become more vivid meaning more fun to do to progress you need to return to your object, and to get better and quicker at noticing that youve lost your object so, you're merely noticing the bad habits of laxity and excitation you've always had. with good instructions it is easy ie. 3months if you also have good conditions to quell the coarse versions of these 2, meaning you will no longer lose your meditation object at all for the entire session, which at this point will easily be at least 90min-120min in effortlessly uninterrupted single-pointedness which we can call halfdecent samadhi

[@AyahuascaMagic]

Seems their might be other ways of experiencing things than subject object. Pretty binary anthropomorphic view.

[@chadkline4268]

I don't know what you refer to, but there is always subject-object, even if the object is emptiness and the subject is the observer.

[@waterkingdavid]

1:10:00 The self in a nutshell.

[@mattrousseau3121]

Many times these bad meditations come prior to an advancement

[@jakubsowa2047]

Holy cow! - I enjoyed Leigh's book on the Jhanas but what he is saying about rebirth here (same as what Batchelor is saying about this topic) is a complete distortion and misrepresentation of Buddha's teachings on this subject. Leigh is distorting the teachings of the Buddha on rebirth to make it fit into his own materialist (annihilationist according to early Buddhism) view point. He is implying rebirth makes no sense because of not-self doctrine. In fact rebirth in Buddhism only makes sense if there is no lasting self. He gets it completely wrong. Also seems to imply Buddha only thought rebirth because people in his time believed it already and wanted to believe it so he didn't want to 'disappoint' so that he will not loose followers. This is a complete nonsense. The rebirth doctrine of the Buddha (process of depended arising continuing from moment to moment, from life to life) was different than reincarnation doctrines of his times (permanent self migrating from body to body). Also Buddha thought many doctrines that were against current views (not-self, depended arising), why single out rebirth as the only false doctrine to keep in his teachings? Also there are numerous Suttas where the Buddha is saying that he teaches rebirth because of direct experience of it!!! What's the point of practicing Buddhism if everything ends at death? In fact you might as well kill yourself now because death would then be the great ending of suffering. Why go through decades of practice and renunciation to achieve the same goal? Leigh (and Batchelor) seem to be the follower of modern materialistic view point that posits that only matter is real and the consciousness is a byproduct of the brain (matter). However science is far from explaining how matter can generate experience (hard problem). Assuming that materialism is true you end up with Buddhist thinkers like Leigh and Batchelor misrepresenting Buddhism to fit their preconceived notions. Highly disappointed with mr. Brasington, makes me skeptical about his accomplishment of Jhanas now, did he just interpret his experience to be Jhanas?

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

Leigh is too confident in his assumption of why the buddha taught reincarnation. Plenty of experienced meditators and even non-meditators have had past life recall. Why would the Buddha mention quantum physics anyway, leigh? You assume that our current level of understanding in science is complete. Or that a human brain can even understand so much. For promoting not knowing as the best method, you sure sound certain!

[@PuggiTheGreat]

Let's be honest and candid. Ones hears a lot of western teachers claiming rebirth is metaphysics and is unnecessary for dharma practice... this is wrong, misleading, a lie. Rebirth is inseparable from Buddhadharma, dependent origination depends upon rebirth. This person like Stephen Batchelor will lead you astray.