Ep127: Were the Founding Fathers Christian: Did God Really Bless America and the Constitution?

On this episode of Mormonish, Rebecca and Landon are joined by Professor Matthew Harris to discuss the question of whether America was originally founded as a Christian nation or a secular republic. Evangelicals would have you believe that God played a prominent role, while the nones may believe otherwise.
This debate has resulted in a culture war over the narrative that shapes The United States today. Professor Harris helps us sift through the information to better understand the religious beliefs that informed the men who founded our country. The answer to this question might surprise you!
Previous Mormonish episode with Matt Harris
• Ep97: Tim Ballard, O.U...
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[@janamckay]

Always great to hear whatever Matthew Harris has to say. His passion and enthusiasm is contagious :)

[@letahamilton]

This should be required viewing in civics class!

[@Jeanikins]

Matt, that was super interesting. Thanks you guys for having him on to talk about this. As a transplanted English gal, living in Canada, the Constitution and the Founding Fathers are not really in my knowledge bank. I love these types of podcasts where I actually learn something that at its core has nothing to do with Mormonism and yet today, that's hard to believe. The church has become something I do not recognize and I imagine the founding fathers would not recognize America. I'm glad the 'dead know nothing.'

[@matthewharris7151]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@h.a.k-m3370]

This was right at my alley! Thank you very much for your intelligent, nuanced and interesting conversation. Greetings from Finland!

[@Lizzycar92]

Really enjoyed this conversation. I have learned so much from Matthew Harris over the last few years.

[@matthewharris7151]

So glad to hear this!

[@SynThenergy]

Loved this discussion! You all are hitting such important and unique topics

[@matthewharris7151]

Thank you. I agree.

[@samsmom400]

We weren't founded as a democracy, we were a REPUBLIC.

[@coldwar45]

A democratic republic.

[@samsmom400]

@@coldwar45 We were founded as a Constitutional Republic. We were given individual liberties. Democracy always degenerates into a dictatorship which always promises government equality and security but it delivers nothing but poverty and serfdom for the people it robs and rules.

[@toeknee5565]

​@@coldwar45a representative republic

[@coldwar45]

@@toeknee5565 Which is a form of democracy.

[@toeknee5565]

@@coldwar45 to call it a democracy would be purposely deceitful. It's nothing like a democracy, the founding fathers took great care to make sure we did not have a democracy. We have a republic.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Matthew Harris is such a gift. This is such a valuable and CLEAR presentation. I really appreciate it.

[@matthewharris7151]

Thank you for the kind words!

[@coldwar45]

It's always great to see Professor Harris on another show!

[@TheHunterGracchus]

Minor correction around 1:18:58. Roger Williams was no Puritan! He was a Baptist who got kicked out of Massachusetts Bay for his views. He went on to found the first Baptist church in the colonies, in Providence.

[@matthewharris7151]

Roger Williams was most definitely a Puritan minister. Look up Edmund Morgan, Robert Middlekauf, Ed Gaustad or others who have written on RW. He was part of the Mass. Bay Colony.

[@ZakMakoff]

Sorry I missed you live, I attended "3rd Friday Bingo" at the First Baptist Church.. aka Drag Queen Bingo! Rebecca... Deseret Books... LOL, Lex de Azevedo tried to get D.B. to sell music in their stores back in '74 when "Saturday's Warrior" came out and was told, "Sorry, we only sell books at Deseret Books!" LOL Landon, That Shirt... You are Uncle Sam! I love this podcast, my family and friends love it too.. have you laced this podcast with caffeine???

[@samsmom400]

"A Benjamin Franklin Reader" edited and annotated by Walter Isaacson who authored "Benjamin Franklin: An American Life" The book includes : The Autobiography, Poor Richard's Almanac, Silence Dogwood's letters, Polly Baker's trial, bagatelles to his French girlfriends, the closing speech at the Constitutional Convention, letters to Jefferson and Adams and Washington, and other writings.

[@barryrichins]

Thanks, boys and girl. I have been thinking a great deal about separation of church and state and our founding fathers, so my time here this evenining is well spent. Matt, I am going to read your book.

[@matthewharris7151]

Thank you. You’re very kind.

[@IvoneteMascara-nx6wz]

Fantastic!!!!!!

[@purpleprose78]

This was amazing. I read a great book a few years ago called Faiths of the Founding Fathers by David L. Holmes. It was one of my way points on my way out of evangelical Christianity. This was a good refresher on that book and I'll look up the speaker's books too and add them to my list. Thank you!

[@whitesalamander]

870 views as the comment drops. Wishing it was 870K views due to excellent and timely content👏

[@samsmom400]

James Madison notes are easily accessed online.

[@user-hd8hn1iu6o]

really enjoyed -

[@samsmom400]

The Records of the Federal Convention Of 1787 single volumes can be bought for as low as $13 to about $30. The entire set, when you find it can be bought for about $125; you just have to know where to look.

[@samsmom400]

The Adams Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams edited by Lester J. Cappon

[@adrianpintea9675]

So signing a contract doesn't count if you don't read it?

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

I think he is simply saying that signing a diplomatic agreement does not reflect the personal opinion of the president signing it but is simply what they feel is best for the nation at the moment.

[@samsmom400]

Some reviewers claim Barton portrays Jefferson as a straight up orthodox Christian. That is false. Here is what Barton himself wrote: "quotes can be selected to make Jefferson appear to be either a mainstream Christian or a pagan heretic, depending on the period of Jefferson's life from which the statements are taken.... While there definitely were periods when Jefferson did challenge some specific doctrines, there never was a time when he questioned the overall value of Christianity to individuals or to a nation." --(Barton, David. The Jefferson Lies: pp. 166-167) The key PHRASE to take from here is "... overall VALUE of Christianity..." I personally haven't read the book, but I read that it's well documented. However, I watched a video that another Christian pastor posted and he explained how somethings were taken out of context and Barton was misrepresenting Jefferson. I know from what I've studied, I believe that Jefferson was not a Christian.

[@michaelparks5669]

the Bill of Rights are based on the writings of John Lathrope a Christian minister. He is my 11th great grand father.

[@tjedwards4254]

You would really benefit listening to wallbuilders

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

Everyone should read a book by Andrew Seidel called the founding myth

[@toeknee5565]

"whether its true or not or whether its an accurate dipiction to me as a historian is irrelevant..." Wow. I stopped right there.

[@samsmom400]

The best explanations I've heard about the Founding Fathers came from Christian pastors. The ones that really know and understand history and the Bible will be the first to agree that they were not Christians. Sadly, not everyone deep dives into history, but the most important part is getting the Bible right, knowing the history of the US is just a plus in my POV, but not pertinent to salvation. If you get the plan of Jesus and salvation wrong, nothing else matters. It'd be nice if you would invite guests that actually know and understand the Bible. When I hear someone refer to Mormons as Christians, I know they are going to be off in most of what they say. If you read and study history and the Bible, and you can't get that right, you in a world of hurt. You should have Lynn Wilder come on the show. She's very knowledgeable. She was a professor at BYU and left Mormonism for the real Jesus.

[@samsmom400]

If you want to know who a person is, look at his 5 closest friends. As far as determining if someone is really a follower of Christ, look at their Bible. Church attendance only matters in Mormonism and other cults.

[@michaelparks5669]

cults? hahaha your bigotry is showing.

[@samsmom400]

I was really hoping that he would have dug deeper into what is really controlling all the governments, the reasons for all the planned revolutions and wars, but he really glossed over it (at best) and regurgitated books that were written with an agenda. Being a graduate of BYU is a red flag. The fact that he doesn't know the difference between a Mormon and a Christian is also concerning.

[@matthewharris7151]

Stop the nonsense. Conspiracy theories do not advance a dialogue. Neither does calling Mormons non-Christian.

[@samsmom400]

Anyone who reads and studies the Bible knows there are many authors. Mormons may not know it, but followers of Christ do.

[@samsmom400]

It's said that it if weren't for Thomas Paine, and his writings, we wouldn't have had a Revolutionary War. He was brought over here to write and publish his propaganda.

[@samsmom400]

It's too bad that Franklin had a list of 13 morals and of those, the majority he failed. Socrates imitated Jesus in the way he taught.

[@ikustudies]

Hey rebecca i have a playlist in my channel called \\edit// important videos. First video. EXCELLENT video on forefathers religious beliefs- mostly thomas paine its excellent info imo. I have loads of crazy research logged in those playlists for anyone to gander

[@toeknee5565]

Could this guy editorialize more than he already had?? I really wanted to take this guys seriously but he sttributes so many attitudes without any such warrant.

[@samsmom400]

1:01:11 The most important part of that statement by Franklin is, "... having never studied it ..." I can tell by what you've said, sadly, neither have you. As a Mormon, if they had taught the Bible, people would have walked away from Mormonism because it's not Biblical. Please take the time to do a Bible Study and learn the Bible, then make a decision. Chuck Missler is a "brainiac". I think you'd enjoy how deep he goes. No one teaches like him. Being a history lover, you'd really get a kick out of his teachings. He's hard to keep up with. Thinking about Jesus doesn't mean you've studied about Him. If you don't read the Bible, you don't know Him. I can think about you all day long, it doesn't mean I KNOW you. Like you said, if you want to KNOW someone, you have to read what they've written.

[@samsmom400]

Actually, all the Mormon men were REQUIRED to become Freemasons, not some.

[@michaelparks5669]

an absolute lie.....Are you a Mason? no? Are you a Mormon? no. best learn to tell the truth.

[@samsmom400]

Anytime anyone is going to lecture on history, I expect that they are going to provide resources. You gave a few vague resources but I would have liked exact resources. Page numbers would have been useful. If you mentioned them, I completely missed it. Right off the bat, I found you to be questionable due to the fact that you continually confused and misused the term, "Christian". You clearly are no longer Mormon, but you don't understand that Mormons are NOT Christians. So, please get that correct. You are absolutely correct about the Founding Fathers not being Christians. It's very frustrating when Christians don't do their research and they repeat what they hear, especially after telling them that it's just not true. It discredits everyone. Regardless of who or what the Founding Fathers were, we were a nation that did have the moral values of the 10 Commandments. It's written on our hearts. It has been that way throughout time. We have turned our back on God. We, as individuals are mocking Him, and He will not be mocked. Our nation is in decline and we are currently self-imploding. There's no turning back. In a very short time, you (all followers of Christ will be raptured) will be under a NWO as the Book of Revelation stated thousands of years ago. The US is the only country holding that process back. Very soon this country will be brought to its knees, and then all nations will be under the anti-Christ.

[@matthewharris7151]

Podcasts are not the format to layout sources. Thats why I recommended my book on the founding fathers and religion. If you want to see my sources, I would suggest getting a copy of the book.

[@samsmom400]

@@matthewharris7151 I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to sell a book. I'm exmormon and I used to think that Mormons were Christians, because they TOLD me that. They don't even remotely come close to Christian theology. They hijacked their terminology to try and look like they were, I don't know why. They don't want to be, they are Mormons with their own created history and religion. I'm thinking you could reach a wider audience if you could get that straight. I would say, that the majority of people who are Christians know that it's a cult and most certainly is not Christian. I wouldn't invest in your book for that reason and I doubt that anyone who is a Christian would. It was difficult to follow what you were saying because you were confusing and blending the two together. Mormons wouldn't know the difference. I suppose that was your target audience and you were trying to speak their language. If you don't know the difference, which would be understandable, read the Bible for your research. Or ask one of your Christian friends to explain it to you. I'm sure they would be happy to. There's a plethora of information out there that explain it. I listed a short list of about 25 books that could take you to a deeper level of history. In researching a person or organization, the first thing to do is FOLLOW THE MONEY. Secondly, look to see what clubs and organizations they're affiliated with. Thirdly, find out who their 5 closest friends are. Start there. When reading a book written about someone, research the author the same way. Why is he writing the book? What's the motive? Is he trying to perpetuate the myth or debunk it? For instance, why did David Mccullough write about Truman? He spent years on that book. Why was he so invested? Why did the big name, well known authors , who won awards write about their subjects? Why are some books given a lot of promotion and others ignored and panned? There's always an agenda. Listening to the interview, you got the premise right, but the rest was lacking. The facts of what you presented were weakened by the confusion of the terminologies for most people who aren't looking through the Mormon lens. And non religious people, I suppose they would be interested. They don't know one way or the other that your terminology is corrupted. As a scholar and teacher of history, I'm thinking that accuracy would be of the utmost importance. I really hope this helps. Best wishes in your endeavors.

[@samsmom400]

I've never heard one single Christian say that the founding fathers were prophets!! Where are you getting that??? You must be speaking of Mormons. Christians and Mormons are worlds apart.

[@matthewharris7151]

There are dozens of books written about Baptist, Methodists, Mormons and other Christians from the early 19th c who believed the founders were prophets. They created a Christian mythos that is still very strong today.

[@samsmom400]

Jefferson was wrong. Jesus is real.

[@samsmom400]

You lose credibility when you can't get distinguish between Christian and a Mormon.