Ep165: Psychedelic Sacraments: The Secret to Early Mormon Visions?

On this episode of Mormonish Podcast Rebecca and Landon have a fascinating discussion with Brandon Crockett and Alex Criddle about their new proof of concept project "EntheoMagus," a 40-minute documentary delving into the possibility that Joseph Smith and the early Mormons were using psychedelic sacraments.as a means to connect with the divine.
This idea is gaining momentum as the mainstream learns more about plant medicines and their effects. Brandon and Alex present a compelling argument for the use of herbs and plants to facilitate group guided vision experiences as well as personal visions as described in early Mormonism.
We know you'll find this as fascinating as we did!
Our Guest Links
Seer Stoned Productions Patreon:
/ seerstonedproductions
For exclusive content including the full documentary itself, a digital copy of "The Psychedelic History of Mormonism, Magic and Drugs," exclusive Q&A sessions from our public screenings of the film, research papers including audio and much more check out:
EntheoMagus trailer:
• EntheoMagus | Official...
Check out the 90 second film trailer here.
Seer Stoned Production website:
seerstonedprod...
Find out more about the origin story of our team, upcoming showings and links to plenty of reading material.
Debate with Brian Hales:
• Psychedelics & Early M...
The original debate about the psychedelic origins of Mormonism with LDS apologist Brian Hales on Mormon Book Reviews.
Response to debate with Brian Hales:
• Psychedelics in Early ...
Extended response to debate with Brian Hales hosted on Bryce Blankenagel's Naked Mormonism channel.
Higher Powers of Man by Frederick M. Smith:
ia800707.us.ar...
Frederick M. Smith's (third prophet-president of RLDS church) 1918 PhD dissertation outlining the various methods for achieving "religious ecstasy" inspired by Fred's desire to replicate the revelatory experiences of his grandfather, Joseph Smith. Included in these methods is a section of drugs, specifically peyote use.
Alchemically Stoned:
www.amazon.com...
Practicing Freemason and Rosicrucian P.D. Newman reveals the psychedelic secrets of Freemasonry.
Early Mormonism and the Magic World View:
www.amazon.com...
D. Michael Quinn's deep exploration into the magical influences and practices of the Smith family. While Quinn did not delve into the psychedelic use of the Smith family, he books referenced here overtly explore psychedelic / psychoactive plant use and their role in the magical experience.
Seer Stoned Productions merch store:
www.redbubble....
The Psychedelic Kirtland Temple Dedication:
alexcriddle.su...
An article by Alex with more details on the Kirtland Temple Dedication and the psychoactive components. Citations to the visions and charges of intemperance discussed can be found in the article.
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[@Smootiful]

I am beyond impressed and excited that you dared to cover this topic! I've been personally convinced for years that entheogens were the impetus and genesis of Joseph Smith's visions and revelations. Please cover this more, as you can!

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Steve Pynnakers Mormon Book Reviews recently hosted a "discussion" including Brian Hales. It's also discussed on Naked Mormonism podcast.

[@davidtaylor5189]

Wow! A new rabbit hole! Thank you for having these guys on!

[@michellesunshinestar]

My online friend who has bipolar, said Joseph Smith was Bipolar (visions - hallucinations. Excessive writing - Book of Mormon). She had to take down her Joseph Smith video because so many people were upset.

[@col06007]

Interesting, that really makes a lot of sense on so many levels.

[@linuxhaxxortutorialsgaming7796]

Right, because people with psychosis aren't usually mentally ill. They're often just annoyingly religious to a doctor such that KYA medicines get forced on them because psychiatry hates people who believe in religious ideas such that it wants to kill them off with benzodiazepines. Welcome to reality. Take the pills they push on you in this country, and you'll never be a soldier for it at least. No rights? No responsibilities I guess.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

@@michellesunshinestar a friend whose late husband had bipolar also thinks Joseph Smith had bipolar (with sociopathic tendencies).

[@debbieshrubb1222]

@@linuxhaxxortutorialsgaming7796 psychosis is a symptom of a range of conditions. I'm not sure how your opinions of psychiatric services are relevant?

[@Pay-It_Forward]

*The Journals of the Council of 50 need to be researched regarding this event. Those of John Solomon Fullmer are kept in the church vault. The LDS Church doesn't even acknowledge the existence of most of his journals. And those which they do are limited approval access. The LDS church normally only allows access to a historians summery of what's in his journals. And I believe that is also only via permission. I believe that the BYU library has a copy of the summary of those few journals the church admits to having. John was 1st Trustee and Trust, scribe for Nauvoo City Council, Member of the Council of 50, and a brother-in-law of Joseph Smith. Joseph secretly lived in John's home while evading Governor Boggs & married John's sister at the time. So should be juicy details in the original journals.*

[@Pay-It_Forward]

*John Solomon Fullmer is also the person who was smuggling the guns into Carthage Jail.*

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Wow. This makes sense. I wondered about these visions . I personally have had visions without any use of herbs or drugs, so I just assumed Joseph had visions. But I have in the last few months, wondered how they all had the visions in Kirkland etc. it would also explain why the vast number of visions ceased or slowed down dramatically after these years . The saints after either didn't know of all of this, or stopped doing it.

[@alexcriddle7587]

That's the beauty of this research, it leaves space for people to have visions with and without the help of these substances. Many of Joseph's visions probably used them, but certainly not all of them did. Particularly as he got good at reaching the visionary state towards the end of his life. It definitely helps explain the mass visions in the early church. It's likely that after Joseph's death + moving to a new location with new plants they just didn't have the same knowledge or ability to use them. There was something special about Joseph's ability to facilitate visions too.

[@BruceRMcConky]

This is going to be EPIC!!!

[@luannwinters9345]

Thank you for all the time you take to bring such informative podcasts to us! I especially like the positive attitudes you both display.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Really appreciate all your support. Thank you for watching!

[@Konnie-t2y]

I’m 80 and I’ve done pscilibin (sp) here in UT.

[@xenuburger7924]

Albert Hofmann the inventor of LSD had his last trip at the age of 95. His mind remained sharp until his death at the age of 102.

[@annalisette5897]

This makes a lot of sense. I am not, nor have ever been Mormon, but I find church history to be fascinating. I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith was sincere in establishing the faith, yet he was flawed in many ways. I do not view him as a complete charlatan though some of his translation work was demonstrably false. If his religious quest was guided by folk medicine, a lot of the story comes into focus.

[@DeanneSanchez]

Wow so fascinating Who would have known ! Thanks you guys for bringing us such amazing podcasts . 😊😊😊

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

In Kabbalah, women cast spells while braiding hair. Why Brigham Young asked his Relief Society women to cut their hair and exquisitely braid it into the Manti Temple Hair Wreath always seemed bizarre to me. The wreath features the Kabbalah “Tree of Life”, the Rosicrucian Masonic checked floor, and Solomon’s basin resting on 12 Bronze Ba’alim facing the four cardinal directions. 12 Bronze Ba’alim represent Jupiter…the sacred number of power, wealth and sexual prowess according to Barrett’s “Magus” published in 1801 AD.

[@DirtmopAZ]

Are we allowed to talk about this without Bryce Blankenagel?

[@alexcriddle7587]

Bryce was with us in spirit!

[@godwincrypto0075]

I have said for years I think Joseph Smith was on some kind of psychedelics. I did an ayahuasca retreat years ago in Peru and went through a dark heavy experience and then saw two beings of light etc. . Had an existential experience. I remember thinking Joseph Smith was more than likely on something 😂

[@michellesunshinestar]

I've had an OBE, and I had to do research to figure out what that was. My ex's family didn't want me on my psych meds. So, I took them in secret, because you can't just go off them. Remember DARE? My one friend said speaking in Toungs is ok, as long as somebody is there to translate. I'd agree with that Rebecca, it would be whatever your religion is. I just remember seeing a bright light, and then it became really dark, and then I woke back up. I was freaking out, because I didn't know what had happened. I wasn't on anything. I was at girl's camp, and I could have been high on spirit, and they made us not get a lot of sleep. And they closed my eyes for a blessing, you're not supposed to close people's eyes if they are going into an OBE. My patriarch didn't want me to drive after my blessing, he had my friend drive. This is all very fascinating; I'd love to learn more. 🩷🩷 I watched this to the end. Sorry for so many comments, I have schizophrenia with mood disorder. (Not bipolar).

[@amandawillis3573]

They saw the things with their 'Spiritual Eyes'...

[@madzazmarland3785]

Proof is all there!!! Ive actually been thinking this over the past the few weeks!!! N now finding this video lol freaky!!! Thankyou all you guys

[@rebeccamikkelsen8755]

The pioneer cemetery in Magna in which my husband is interred is full of datura.

[@alexcriddle7587]

No way! That's nice to hear. We should start a list of everywhere it is found!

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

“Black Pete”, Joseph Smith’s friend, apparently practiced African Voodoo and taught him Datura processing. Someone high on Datura will sign their life away.

[@rtbeckmd]

Thanks!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thank you so much! We appreciate you and your support more than we can say!

[@donnellallan]

I love this stuff!

[@cynthiaortegon8413]

Great show. Thanks.

[@mtddmtdd1]

I think you should do a LOT more research and be able to prove this with contemporary documentation. This is a stake in the heart of Mormonism if you document this well.

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

I think the LDS church has always put a little processed Datura into the sacrament water. Everyone always “feels better” after they go to church. The effect would be most pronounced on Fast Sunday when all of the members have empty stomachs and the tithing and fast offerings pour in. Datura is a drug that can make people agree to anything.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

I agree with you! Lol

[@LongJourneys]

I dunno, I was a deacon in the 90s and we just used tap water

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

@@LongJourneys Datura is incredibly powerful. A minuscule amount could drug an entire congregation. In powder form, just a light dusting of the bread could do it.

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

@@LongJourneys This documentary about Datura is excellent. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqC0aYONjtOoZpY

[@johnthomas8606]

In my many decades of experience, no one ever felt better after church. The TBMs that I know sleep their post-mtg Sundays away.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

16:28 *Wormwood wine?*

[@susiekathryn8570]

This is so interesting! Thank you!

[@patrickofco3059]

Amazing information, thank you for sharing it! Shelf breaker item was listening to Sam Harris’ podcast #3, describing his experience with a friend where they took MDMA. Unrequited feelings of love for all people, etc. Perfectly described a spiritual experience I had in the MTC.

[@fepatton]

It's great to hear this viewpoint from people who have had related experiences. I listened to Bryce Blankenagel back when he was podcasting regularly and would get pretty irritated when he would constantly bring up the hallucinogens in early Mormonism. It seemed unjustified and weird. Then Cody Naconi's, et. al., paper on the topic was published. I had to write to Bryce and tell him that I went from being completely skeptical to completely convinced! Regarding the first vision, I think the first written version could very well have been _inspired_ by hallucinogenic experiences, but since it was reported very late and only when an origin story was needed, I believe it likely didn't actually happen at the time reported. Ditto the Moroni visits.

[@wesshields2178]

Great show!

[@CrazyTrain-k2j]

Magic Mushrooms fully ripen at fall equinox. The “secret grove” still produces them to this day. Joseph Smith made the annual trip for a reason in late September. 👁🏺📒🌞

[@nancyking8438]

So interesting!

[@clydeLedford]

I never used any kind of dope, but had 2 out of body we experiences (while doing Kundalini yoga) and once had an unseen entity chastise me. :.

[@susiekathryn8570]

Just wondering if a person who is blind would have visionary experiences?

[@hanako4475]

Oregon had legalized psilocybin therapy, AND needs psilocybin therapy patients! I've done it! 💜

[@rosemariebennett7213]

I wonder what the leaders of the church would think about this. Probably would deny it

[@DeanneSanchez]

If Joseph was a true prophet , you would think this tradition would have carried on throughout the years . A lot of things he did is now completely ignored Yet they still claim he’s a true prophet lol 😊 Great show ❤

[@michellesunshinestar]

Isn't there a verse in Acts about rushing wind or whatever. I ran across it when we were reading ACTs. Rushing winds could be really scary to early Christians. Look it up: ACTs 2: 1-4

[@alexcriddle7587]

Yeah! I talked briefly about it in the episode. That's probably where they got the terminology to describe it!

[@jpcole888]

It's 420 somewhere 😅

[@jasonoliver7974]

Great Podcast! Keep up the great work guys.... Was he saying Dotura or DoTerra as anointing oil

[@alexcriddle7587]

Datura!

[@CliffordClaytonGorovoy]

Dude these mushrooms are great, how about 80 wife's? And prairie dresses 😮 and tithing, this is really going to be awesome

[@hanako4475]

OMG BRIGHAM TEA!!! 😮😮😮

[@linuxhaxxortutorialsgaming7796]

Even if psychedelics became mainstream, I wouldn't do them. I'd treat them just like I did antibiotics. No recreational stuff for me. You can do whatever you want though. Don't make it a problem for other people though. The second people start to do it on the road, it's no wonder the state wants to take it away. I agree with the state, but scientifically, there are some really cool tools that could help a lot of people, especially for depression. I'm under the impression that psychedelics, if researched properly, could provide a benefit for treatments that help people, however, knowing what I already know about the psychiatric movement pushing prescriptions on teenagers and preventing them from ever being able to join the military at no fault of their own, I would assume they'd push dog shit on the public just like they do in the benzo market. I'm not against the principle. I'm against the very real social and economic vultures who would deliberately misuse it in our society. At least in the criminal market, there aren't large corporations (God-forbid the churches) pushing these on people.

[@tommyg4822]

RLDS: "Reefer-ormed Latter-day Saints?"

[@moesyah]

enjoying an "infused spirit" catching up on this one 🍻

[@wesliepowell5698]

Rye, a common grain in Joe's time, went moldy and could cause hallucinations

[@alexcriddle7587]

Ergot is definitely a possibility!

[@erintucker934]

Landon cracks me up. Mormonish bikini 😂

[@Jsppydays]

This is not surprising at all except, herbs are for man herbs are taken as tea. But herbs are okay but tea is not. It's such a confusing mess, the word of wisdom. This is so confusing and God is not a god of confusion. I think the wine has been around since Noah. No I made sure to bring seeds and vines for wine and grapes. Most important. God still loves Noah and calls him righteous. Great podcast and I believe they used psychedelics. Joseph hung out with the Indians and I'm sure he was exposed to many things.

[@kingimatthews4481]

Like ive just stumbled into this room of incoherent forms of aliens sitting around a bar smoking DAK, an munching on a bag of magic mushrooms , waiting for the next Star Wars scene,

[@12345gerrard]

Where's john delin? john delin must be in everything to do with Mormons lol 😆

[@alexcriddle7587]

He was talked about in the pre-show! haha Just didn't make it into the actual episode.

[@tawneenielsen4080]

😂😂

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

Your comments about the latterday saint church is getting worse all the time and the slander shows a horrible picture of the type of person you are becomming