Ep142: Elijah and the Sealing Keys: The Kirtland Temple Narrative Debunked

On this episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon are joined by the wonderful Rob Lauer to discuss the narrative of Elijah, Elias, and Moses appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland temple.
With the LDS church taking ownership of the Kirtland temple recently, the missionary tour guides will be telling a very different narrative about the events that supposedly happened in the temple than the Community of Christ guides did.
The backdated and third party account of this heavenly visitation was changed into a first hand account which has become the official LDS narrative. The sealing keys are a foundational element of the LDS church's core doctrine. It's interesting to explore the origins of this story. It's not what you think!
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[@collettelarsen3782]

I just watched this entire episode for the SECOND time. Fascinating information! Hard to wrap my head around the fact that I considered myself a devout, informed, educated member of the church for 63 years - and never knew any of this! Thank you to all three of you. I resigned my membership back in 2016 and have learned FAR MORE in the past decade than I learned in all those decades in the church. Thank you. This has become one of my favorite podcasts. Rebecca, I’ve got a few years on you - but can relate so completely to the way you were raised. You validate my personal experience!

[@whitesalamander]

Yes, this episode is one of the most informative on how the current Mormon narrative is a fabrication.

[@rachelhansen2417]

I read a bunch of “The Work And The Glory”, and so many events that were “revealed later” are discussed in the present moments they happened in the book. This is wonderful deconstruction!

[@countkolob]

Work and the Glory led to my faith deconstruction. I read all the footnotes and wanted to know more thinking it would strengthen my testimony. Oops!

[@DancingQueenie]

I’d love an episode about early ‘apostates’. Kirtland, Nauvoo, later. Why did they leave? What did they know? Are there diaries with details? Were young men banished so old men could marry the girls? There are early accounts of people who escaped SLC then found dead in the desert. Some headed to California to find gold. Must be some great stories.

[@SynThenergy]

Absolutely fantastic podcast! I love these historical deep dives. I often asked myself "while I know the church isn't what it claims to be for many reasons, how can we explain all these heavenly visitations with multiple witnesses and contemporary documents?" The answer is that it's almost always retrofitted and far removed from the person/events

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

100 percent!!

[@jkaccounting]

Agree totally. I'd love to see a document that outlines all the retrofitted events of the history of the church. Does something like this exist anywhere?

[@michellemilne3315]

I was just as surprised as Rebecca! Just when you think you’ve learned all of the hidden things, something new pops up. Great job!

[@kristinecase8602]

Elijah hasn’t come yet. JS was excited for it to happen. It didn’t come in his day. BY and his caball added this to make polygamy seem legit.

[@DancingQueenie]

Such great research here. When you’re a fish swimming in Mormon water, it’s all so real and important. I overheard an elderly missionary talking to a young couple in the chapel lobby. He poked his finger in the guy’s chest and said “do you love your wife?” Then he yelled “you’ll never see her again after you die.” 🙄

[@darlenelane9010]

Wow...that missionary was so wrong! so judgemental! so very much the mormon way!

[@LatterDayInvestigator]

Great episode! I heard this a couple of years ago but feel it’s underrated topic and not talked about enough. It’s another smoking gun, like the Book of Abraham, in my opinion.

[@TheSaintelias]

After studying Mormon history, for last few years, I am always being amazed at how backdated the entire history of the church actually is. The church isn’t only behind the times it is constantly rewriting the church 10 or so years in the past.

[@jake8882]

You just wrote my experience as well. So odd.

[@TheSaintelias]

@@jake8882 the walk out of the church is really common. The topics that hit might be different but there are so many it all leads to the same order of events of self awakening. It is crazy how common each person’s experience is.

[@jake8882]

@TheSaintelias very true. What an experience.

[@natenelson9102]

I heard through a friend of a friend, take it for what it's worth, that Keith Erickson signed a NDA, traveled to Missouri, with no idea what was asked and before the announcement, and was told that at the time of the agreement to secure and transport the relevant artifacts from Kirkland and Missouri, in the back of a Escalade. Within 24 hours of the agreement, those artifacts were secured back up in SLC.

[@TheSaintelias]

The church of Jesus Christ of later day rewrites.

[@mariheward]

To answer your question at the end, yes, I’m aware of these things because I’ve listened to Michelle Stone at her podcast 132problems with polygamy for two years and she’s really gone into problems with the narrative and records for over a year now. I know you had her on recently and I hope you will have her on again. I don’t agree with everything she says but she has brought a lot of information to the table that both the church and the exmos are dismissing and I feel like what she is presenting is worth considering.

[@QuinnPrice]

Elijah and the Sealing Keys. If I ever create a 1950s retro band, I will definitely use this name.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Do it!!!😂

[@robbiefl58]

😆😆😆

[@helenvick522]

So interesting and enlightening.

[@aierlanren888]

Lyman Wight died before he could join the RLDS church, his followers however did join the RLDS church

[@countkolob]

I really enjoy Rob's episodes. Great info!

[@IvoneteMascara-nx6wz]

I was never fond of BY - always thought he was a dangerous power-grabbing bully. Well, there you have it!!!!

[@byonnoyb]

As was Joseph Smith

[@debbieshrubb1222]

This episode was excellent. I intend to listen a second time. Makes alot of sense: the retrofitting by Brigham Young makes alot of sense. I think I can understand maybe, some of the perspectives of people who claim that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

So glad you enjoyed! Rob is a wealth of knowledge!

[@spitimalamati]

The D&C 121, 122 can also be seen from letters in "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" where one can observe what was extracted, what was left out.

[@knparker8]

Wow! This is great information. Thank you.

[@ladams2134]

Great episode!!! Thank you !!

[@spitimalamati]

I had a private tour of the Kirtland Temple in 1991, just because I was the only visitor at the RLDS Visitor Center on that day, at that time. I loved the tour and the building, and one of my ancestors is buried in the Kirtland Temple cemetery. It just occurred to me after this "Mormonish" presentation, the whole narrative of Jesus, Moses, Elias and Elijah appearing, was likely fabricated, backdated and changed from 3rd person to 1st person. Maybe they were using the "eye of faith" to see a visitation, with their "spiritual eyes", but the backdating etc., gives the whole keys-authority project a funny smell. Sheesh!

[@janetroberts6441]

So good! Thank you!

[@EdmundPatak]

I was aware of the later post-martydom & Utah doctrinal developments so I was shocked that the Peace Maker pamphlet wasn’t mentioned. The Brighamite doctrine of the spirit of Elijah and polygamy mirrors this document. In fact, Heber C Kimball ended up adopting the author of this pamphlet in 1845-46.

[@IvoneteMascara-nx6wz]

Great content!!!!!!! Thank you!!!! Amazing, aint’it??!!!!!

[@edbutzwiggle4227]

Wow! 🤯 Never heard a lot of that before

[@EverydayNormal]

You are catching up with Rob Fotheringham

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

I just dont think God is concerned about my underwear. Think He's more interested in my soul.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

I am so with Samuel Clemens.😂😂😂😂🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@aredesuyo]

I first learned of the Elijah fraud from Denver Snuffer's book --Passing The Heavenly Gift--, more than 10 years ago. I now consider him to be kind of nuts, but he wasn't wrong about this issue. It's nice to see that more people are finding out of about this bit of history.

[@sallyostling]

So can you go to the hardware store and make a copy of your sealing key in case you lose it and want a spare?

[@DancingQueenie]

Yes

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@rosemariebennett7213]

I have a question and not sure where to ask it. According to revelation, Michael the archangel is coming back if that is the case, what happens to Adam . According to the endowment session he's no longer Michael, but Adam soo who is who and why did Heavenly Father do that in the first place?

[@susiemccomb4501]

I would’ve enjoyed this podcast if the hosts would stop talking over each other and let the guest talk.

[@HawksMustardSeeds25]

​​I had a dream in 2017 about the Horn of Moroni falling to the street before it happned the Bishop living close to me got that info from me along with 3 other dreams, no call back, So far all but 1 dream has come to pass within a few years after having them, Why does no one want to discuss this? The chuirch got all the info and poofed.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Felt that was a sign mydelf. Am xlds No one else noticed????😮😮😮😮😮

[@briannielson1221]

Do you actually beleive the horn falling was real!? Do you honestly believe the horn was separately crafted from the rest of the statue?

[@jake8882]

Was the horn falling a thing? Where and when did it happen?

[@haroldpeterson7106]

I’m familiar with most of this information because I listen to Michelle Stones podcast 132 problems.

[@patriciahindman9721]

The Mormon church is SO full of false history. I feel so very sorry for all the people who truly are believing in all the garbage. I wish all those who have been affected a swift healing process as they go through their faith journey.

[@Jozeemoss]

Elias is just the Greek form of Elijah literally the same person in the Bible. That's like saying Yeshua and Jesus both walked on water.. ...😂😂 Joseph Smith really is Satin's jester🤡👺

[@spencerlercher4059]

I am an unorthodox active Mormon who is a history nerd. My first reaction was how in the world I missed the fact that the 1836 vision of Elijah in the Kirtland temple was anachronistic. I looked at the books in my library written by Michael Quinn, Dan Vogel, and Gregory Prince. Greg's book, Power from on High, contained a couple of the quotes mentioned within this podcast but he had a different take. Greg questioned why the silence from Joseph and Oliver Cowdery. Mentally, I head butted the wall when President Nelson talked about the vision because his talk will probably be a Elders Quorum topic. I am going have to mention the vision is anachronistic. The timing of this topic on your channel is even more uncanny.

[@truthseeker4286]

What was Greg's take, please

[@spencerlercher4059]

Greg made the following statement after quoting Joseph Smith's January 21, 1884 sermon. "... Not only had Elijah become the paramount figure in priesthood theology. He now was seen as primarily responsible for all salvific ordinances for the living and the dead. Three months prior to his own death, Smith reinforced Elijah’s position at the pinnacle of the priesthood hierarchy and indeed the entire Kingdom of God on earth.." He viewed the Elijah visitation in terms of theological development and didn't catch the historical issues of Joseph saying, "...the keys are to be delivered..." "...the spirit of Elijah is to come..."

[@nancyevans3590]

🤯

[@Jeanikins]

Polygamy on the Pedernales, I think is what you were trying to remember Rob.

[@robbiefl58]

That's it. Thanks. It's a great book.

[@Jeanikins]

@@robbiefl58 I have not read it but it's somewhere on my laptop, so I recognized the name you were trying to come up with. I must read it.

[@kristinecase8602]

Joseph Smith was a monogamist. BY brought this disgusting idea. 🤮🤮🤮

[@benjamingardea4511]

Oh my goodness. I really like this episode but the talking over each other is almost unbearable. It feels like every time Rebecca tries to speak she can barely get a word in

[@prophetcentral]

Oh man, I hear a lot of great points, but I hear a lot of ignorance simultaneously. I pray for your seeking of truth. I just want to point out one thing, to claim that Joseph either has to be brilliant or an uneducated farm boy is highly ignorant considering he had years to learn and become educated. He can be both an uneducated farm boy and a brilliant mind. After all, from the time he got the plates to the time that he died was a matter of more than 20 years. One can learn quite a bit in such a short amount of time. Beware of such silly claims. God bless.

[@LL-sj3is]

Omg. Please don’t talk over each other. There must be a way for you to only allow one person to speak at a time.

[@1000huzzahs]

Do you guys have to keep using Generative AI for your thumbnails? In addition to being environmental disasters, machine learning bots steal artists' content from across the internet in order to basically create plagiarism machines. Plus AI images more often than not look... "off" somehow. It's your choice though.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

There was a wonderful painting of the Elijah event I wish I could use but using those images can get a copyright strike against you and shut your Podcast down. Using AI makes sure that you will never have that kind of issue. Especially when you are dealing with church pictures. They will come after you for everything! It’s sad but true.

[@TheSaintelias]

I hear you but the cost and time savings on editing and uploading multiple images to get a thumbnail is so much less with AI it’s crazy. Categories of marketing people are so going to be out of work very soon. AI development will destroy copywriters as well. It’s crazy

[@colinmccann7123]

Who cares what you think you're going to meet your maker someday. You had better be on the right path and not the wrong one. You know that if you have the truth and turn from it that you're going to pay for it !!!

[@rachelhansen2417]

I left because I no longer believe it is the truth. I tried my best, but I couldn’t maintain my integrity and continue in the church. If there is a god who is worthy of worship, they won’t judge me for genuinely trying my best.

[@robbiefl58]

​@@rachelhansen2417 Amen!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

@@rachelhansen2417 I totally agree! I always tell people who ask this question that if I am talking to God at a final judgment I will say, “you gave me a brain, you allowed me to think, and then you created the most crazy religious construct with so many inconsistencies and problems that what did you mean for a thinking person to do. If you were trying to trick me then that just awful. I stand by all my decisions and I know you as God who gave me my brain, will understand!”

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@rebeccabibliotheca God didn't create Mormonism that is sure but historical Christianity is the real deal .

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Truth is in the Sec fines? Polygamy? Bigotry against marginzlized people? Oppression of women? Who wants that God of truth??????

[@honda4life812]

3 words... Lake of fire!! To actually lead one away from God as this dude does is a personal attack on GOD!! ENJOY PAL!!

[@sjenson6694]

Haha 😂

[@robbiefl58]

I'm leading no one from God. As a Reform Mormon, I believe in God, love God, and believe that all human beings have Divine potential. As a Reform Mormon, I don't conflate any church and its leaders with God or Christ.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Rob is a wonderful person and a reformed Mormon who believes in God. Don’t confuse scholarship and wading through historical evidence for turning people away from God. That is not what is happening here.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@robbiefl58 interesting: what is a reform or maybe progressive Mormon???

[@robbiefl58]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Reform Mormonism is a Mormon denomination/movement that was begun in 2002. It focuses on the ethical aspects of Mormon theology rather than the institutiontnal and ceremonial aspects.