Ep241: Meditation Myths - Dhammarato

In this episode, I am once again joined by Dhammarato: a lineage teacher in the Thai Buddhist tradition who is known for his unique, 1-1 teaching style conducted over Skype.
Dhammarato challenges what he sees as the widespread misconceptions about meditation practice, focusing in particular on American Buddhism and the Goenka and Mahasi methods.
Dhammarato discusses issues such as the dangers of meditation retreats, the problems with sleep deprivation and other austerities, and recounts stories of men he has known who crippled themselves through obsessive meditation practice in damaging seated postures.
Dhammarato also calls for a return to the original teaching of the Buddha, advises on how to find and keep spiritual friends, and shares his perspective on how to meditate well.
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Also available on KZbin, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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00:00 - Intro
00:53 - Challenging Western Buddhism
03:54 - Drawbacks of Goenka Vipassana retreats
04:14 - Buddha’s advice for meditation
06:21 - Common meditation mistakes
07:28 - How to see dukkah
08:16 - Coming out of victimhood
09:28 - Drawbacks of the Mahasi method
11:21 - The problem of pain on meditation retreats
13:48 - Following the Ānāpānasati Sutta and jhana practice
16:18 - Western practitioners who destroyed their knees and legs while meditating
17:47 - Sleep deprivation
18:38 - Take it easy and be gentle
19:18 - Dangers of meditation retreats
20:31 - Essence of Buddhism
22:01 - Misunderstandings about meditation posture
28:16 - Magical body postures and siddhi powers
32:29 - The Donald Trumps of Buddhism
33:56 - What attracts people to extreme asceticism and psychedelics?
35:23 - Does Dhammarato’s approach merely suppress suffering?
43:00 - The myth of life enhancing meditation
47:24 - Dhammarato’s advice for regular practice
50:22 - The value of noble friends
55:49 - The Open Sangha Foundation
59:23 - Getting out of magical thinking
01:01:08 - How to make Dhamma friends
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Dhammarato Episode Playlist
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To find out more about Dhammarato, visit:
- Email: [e-mail]
- Discord: / discord
- dhammaratoblog.wordpress.com/
- / @dhammaratodhamma
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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com
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Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

[@icarus166]

My practice seriously exploded after finding Dhammarato and running with his instructions. The benefits to my life, well being and relationships have been immense

[@amaryllisequistra]

This was excellent. After 20 years of intensive sitting I came to the same conclusion that Dhammarato is speaking of, and dangnabbit if he isn’t right about the ease and for that’s available right now. I am in a difficult life situation, so the ease is a most welcome development. I had not considered his point about difficulties beingbeing on the surface rather than “deeply buried”, but having looked into it, he’s right! More immediate liberation! Hallelujah and all that jazz 🤩

[@AngelRPuente]

Dhammarato is one of the most sensible teachers I have heard in my continuous research of meditation. Not only is he in line with the best of the ancients but with the latest in scientific investigation. From "Mahamudra-The Ocean of Definitive Meaning, "When meditating, in the beginning, one session should be equivalent to one inhalation. Then gradually lengthen your sessions. If, however, you prolong your sessions in the beginning, the object [of meditation] may become unclear and muddled and you may have problems associated with discouragement. Therefore, beginners should do short, frequent sessions. Take your break [when you have been resting] within sharp, lucid clarity, and repeatedly continue your meditation [in this state]. Do not leave your meditation hating it--suspend it when it is going well. It is important to apply yourself in ways that create enthusiasm [for meditation]." Thank you Dhammarato. May we all go from moments of satisfaction to 24 hours of contentment. May we see the truth that is right in front of us, always.

[@davidjohnson8218]

TWIM absolutely does not suggest sleep deprivation at all. Where does he get that?? TWIM says get as much sleep as you need to ensure your mind is awake and vibrant and relaxed. 6-8 hrs!

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

He makes up things about other traditions and teachers to make himself look better.

[@MrRobo76]

I’ve heard Delson say on this podcast about getting enough sleep. I’m new to TWIM and already realise the ease and middle way it suggests. Thanks for your teachings David.

[@davidjohnson8218]

@@MrRobo76 You got it!

[@namarupa3015]

The first time you ever had him on here, I immediately went "I WANNA BE LIKE HIM!" He just exudes joy. He's so happy and he has next to nothing but helpful advice to offer besides the occasional joke here and there, which makes him all the more endearing. I always get super stoked whenever I see a new Dhammarato episode, so thanks for having him back on the cast. I've yet to Skype with him, but I'm sure that someday I will.

[@juang4618]

The Buddha advocated the middle way, true. And any ascetic practice or one that seeks only bliss should be avoided. But sitting in correct posture, being cross legged or in a chair, reveals places in the body that are tied to conditioned patterns of the mind. that often manifest as discomfort. Vipassana style of observing with equanimity is a powerful method of dissolving these patterns. Sitting, with no agenda, observing the discomforts ( and anything else that arises) will change and/or dissolve the patterns. This needs to happen for most people in order to abide in stillness. This is the beginning practice

[@jakubsowa2047]

Well, there you go folks, we finally have a teacher who 'really' knows what true Buddhism and Buddhist practice is all about and... also knows what true Christianity is about as an added benefit! Not like all those other teachers that have no idea what Buddha or Jesus really meant. Praise the Lord! I mean the Buddha.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

Eh there's a load of teachers who do. I believe in more than one teacher.

[@isaacstamper7798]

Are you being sarcastic lol

[@OfficialGOD]

the message is the same if you get it

[@orshaharorna.shahar8921]

Thanks! So simple and so wonderful. It is good to remember that behind all the instructions and techniques, meditation is simple and good. It took me so long to learn not to make an effort, to pay less attention to an exact position and to just be.

[@jasmingriffin5693]

I always thought that that was the point .. to go through the stress and pain until one lets go , gives up the fight, and relaxes .. that's what happened to me on my first Goenka 10 day retreat at 21 ! Then I went into a state of absolute peace no pain and went straight into a second 10 day . I always thought this is what us supposed to happen

[@VishalRaoOnYouTube]

1:03:17 "We don't need another hero; what we need is friends." -- Dhammarato

[@KotBlini]

wow incredible wisdom pouring out of this man.

[@magalipeysha]

Thank you!

[@VishalRaoOnYouTube]

This interview has a few gems I am still processing. I am new to Dhammarato, but he has got me thinking about concepts like "satisfaction", "success", and "suffering" in new ways. I will have to relisten in a few hundred days. 😊

[@atisdemon]

Interesting point of view.

[@benwansbury7412]

It's good to see your contentment, living calmly & confidently in the buddha dharma, Dhammarato. 🙂 I love a monk with right view. I will visit you one day. Any way, thanks for explaining to everyone how to benefit from buddha dharma. Stay cool, won't you.

[@deepblack67]

Love this guy. Have experienced this with people, "oh I can't meditate" and well you ask them and they are doing stupid things that don't work and they think it's their fault. Baby steps and development over time. Sitting in full lotus Hurts? stop sitting in full lotus.

[@samosidi]

the truth!

[@michaeltimothy456]

Excellent conversation, great points to think about, thank you.

[@simonbacaltos5660]

Thank you for the interview.

[@mikehev222]

He is back!

[@davidmickles5012]

Any (all) tension in the body is a indicator of duality in the mind. Genuine release of all tension in the body is liberation. 🙏❤

[@davidmickles5012]

I've not heard of this man before but he clearly understands the Dharma (Truth). From the perspective of reality all "pursuit" of reality is and can only be delusion. He is presenting the perspective of reality, and not the perspective of "delusion" - which presents Dharma as a "distant goal" to be attained by an "unenlightened" being. From the perspective of reality there ARE NO "unenlightened" beings. Once this is recognized, practice is then an EXPRESSION of Dharma rather than dualisticslly viewed as a tool to be used. But.. even if you view practice as a "tool" that you use to "make progress" toward a "distant goal" this is NOT really a problem. Even delusion is merely an expression of reality.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

The sensations that make up tension if you pay attention nearly always have to do with an " I, me" practicing feeling it with the concept of no-self, as sensations that are just there on their own naturally and not relating to a self, is excellent insight practice. As is feeling the moment to moment cascade of sensations going on rather than it being felt not so mindfully as often one big solid sensation.

[@OfficialGOD]

9:00 👌

[@NothingTheGreat]

I've found quite a lot of value in Dhammarato's material for some time now, however, I do come away with the impression at times that his teaching is less dhamma and more a re-branding of positive psychology. It's definitely a fusion of both, but does anyone else view it similarly?

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

Yes. It works great if done with great diligence, but most aren't practicing hard. And if you're practicing hard might as well include more techniques that help different aspects.

[@nowmichaelclark]

Dhammarato has described it before as a "Change Model". You can change how you feel, the thoughts you're having and you're attitude. You can change from unwholesome to wholesome. You can make a change from Dukkha to Dukkha Nirodha!

[@NothingTheGreat]

@@nowmichaelclark Yes, I’m aware, and he hasn’t just referred to it as a “change model” before but also in this very interview at timestamp 13:02. My point is not that this is a bad idea or unhealthy, but just simply that it’s not in accordance with supramundane dhamma in the way that he claims it is. The sort of attitude and behavior change that he advocates for achieving through positive thinking is more aligned with positive psychology than it is the deeply transformative approach outline by the Buddha. Optimistic and constructive thinking taking place on the level of discursive self-directed thoughts is a superficial papering over of the real work to be done. It can be fine as an additional and supplemental scaffolding, but that’s not how he presents it. It is ayoniso manasikara, and fosters an identification with thoughts and emotions instead of addressing the root causes of dissatisfaction. Steve presents this criticism to him at 35:25, but unfortunately Dhammarato invariably misinterprets this need for greater “depth” again within the framework of psychology, and his go-to is defending against an imagined position that no one is actually taking; arguing against “psychological archeology” as if critics are suggesting a need to delve deeply into things like childhood trauma. He makes analogies to shallow tree roots and shallow truck tires stuck in mud, but this is unfortunately not relevant, because the “depth” that critics are suggesting is lacking is that of not fully uprooting the craving and aversion that persistently arise due to the experiential ignorance of anicca and anatta and the subsequent dukkha that arises due to the failure to relinquish all appropriation. An experiential felt-sense of an essentialized self to whom experience is happening, basically. Views vary on the correct way of achieving this relinquishment of all appropriation, with some advocating for sense restraint and virtue in the form of renunciation in the face of all craving and aversion, while others believe you can achieve this with sufficient meditation-acquired Insight leading to the same understanding- no one, however, credibly claims that you can just think some relaxing thoughts. When the Buddha first achieved awakening he had to be talked into teaching because he felt no one would be able to grasp it… are we really to believe that what he thought people wouldn’t grasp is “never mind, everything is good right now, I’m safe :) ”? No. I don’t particularly enjoy leveling these critiques against Dhammarato because I think he’s a good guy with much value to offer, but I do think this is a central flaw in his approach. He’s not devoid of dharma in his approach, it’s just not thorough or consistent enough.

[@NothingTheGreat]

@@nowmichaelclark Yes, I’m aware, and he hasn’t just referred to it as a “change model” before but also in this very interview at timestamp 13:02. My point is not that this is a bad idea or unhealthy, but just simply that it’s not in accordance with supramundane dhamma in the way that he claims it is. The sort of attitude and behavior change that he advocates for achieving through positive thinking is more aligned with positive psychology than it is the deeply transformative approach outline by the Buddha. Optimistic and constructive thinking taking place on the level of discursive self-directed thoughts is a superficial papering over of the real work to be done. It can be fine as an additional and supplemental scaffolding, but that’s not how he presents it. It is ayoniso manasikara, and fosters an identification with thoughts and emotions instead of addressing the root causes of dissatisfaction. Steve presents this criticism to him at 35:25, but unfortunately Dhammarato invariably misinterprets this need for greater “depth” again within the framework of psychology, and his go-to is defending against an imagined position that no one is actually taking; arguing against “psychological archeology” as if critics are suggesting a need to delve deeply into things like childhood trauma. He makes analogies to shallow tree roots and shallow truck tires stuck in mud, but this is unfortunately not relevant, because the “depth” that critics are suggesting is lacking is the that of not fully uprooting the craving and aversion that persistently arise due to the experiential ignorance of anicca and anatta and the subsequent dukkha that arises due to the failure to relinquish all appropriation. An experiential felt-sense of an essentialized self to whom experience is happening, basically. Views vary on the correct way of achieving this relinquishment of all appropriation, with some advocating for sense restraint and virtue in the form of renunciation in the face of all craving and aversion, while others believe you can achieve this with sufficient meditation-acquired Insight leading to the same understanding- no one, however, credibly claims that you can just think some relaxing thoughts. When the Buddha first achieved awakening he had to be talked into teaching because he felt no one would be able to grasp it… are we really to believe that what he thought people wouldn’t grasp is “never mind, everything is good right now, I’m safe :) ”? No. I don’t particularly enjoy leveling these critiques against Dhammarato because I think he’s a good guy with much value to offer, but I do think this is a central flaw in his approach. He’s not devoid of dharma in his approach, it’s just not thorough or consistent enough.

[@NothingTheGreat]

Just in case, though-- Yes, I’m aware, and he hasn’t just referred to it as a “change model” before but also in this very interview at timestamp 13:02. My point is not that this is a bad idea or unhealthy, but just simply that it’s not in accordance with supramundane dhamma in the way that he claims it is. The sort of attitude and behavior change that he advocates for achieving through positive thinking is more aligned with positive psychology than it is the deeply transformative approach outline by the Buddha. Optimistic and constructive thinking taking place on the level of discursive self-directed thoughts is a superficial papering over of the real work to be done. It can be fine as an additional and supplemental scaffolding, but that’s not how he presents it. It is ayoniso manasikara, and fosters an identification with thoughts and emotions instead of addressing the root causes of dissatisfaction. Steve presents this criticism to him at 35:25, but unfortunately Dhammarato invariably misinterprets this need for greater “depth” again within the framework of psychology, and his go-to is defending against an imagined position that no one is actually taking; arguing against “psychological archeology” as if critics are suggesting a need to delve deeply into things like childhood trauma. He makes analogies to shallow tree roots and shallow truck tires stuck in mud, but this is unfortunately not relevant, because the “depth” that critics are suggesting is lacking is the that of not fully uprooting the craving and aversion that persistently arise due to the experiential ignorance of anicca and anatta and the subsequent dukkha that arises due to the failure to relinquish all appropriation. An experiential felt-sense of an essentialized self to whom experience is happening, basically. Views vary on the correct way of achieving this relinquishment of all appropriation, with some advocating for sense restraint and virtue in the form of renunciation in the face of all craving and aversion, while others believe you can achieve this with sufficient meditation-acquired Insight leading to the same understanding- no one, however, credibly claims that you can just think some relaxing thoughts. When the Buddha first achieved awakening he had to be talked into teaching because he felt no one would be able to grasp it… are we really to believe that what he thought people wouldn’t grasp is “never mind, everything is good right now, I’m safe :) ”? No. I don’t particularly enjoy leveling these critiques against Dhammarato because I think he’s a good guy with much value to offer, but I do think this is a central flaw in his approach. He’s not devoid of dharma in his approach, it’s just not thorough or consistent enough.

[@Dhammadingleberry]

In Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s words: “if you know the good, you will hunger for the good. If you know the better, you will hunger for the better. If you know the best, you will hunger for the best. You may even know and hunger for the better than the best. But what the Buddha taught is: No hunger…”

[@novaacuinfo5930]

Always great to hear this teacher. thank you.

[@Ninja9JKD]

@14:00 this makes so much sense. It's the reason to do Yoga, to be able to sit comfortably

[@whitenozze]

Join our sangha!

[@KingJorman]

The posture discussion was really good and had me thinking that the Feldenkrais method could be very effective to help a person evolve physical comfort balance and pleasant sensations. How about an interview with a senior Feldenkrais practitioner who also has a meditative practice? Jeff Haller might be a possibility, though he may consider himself more of a martial artist than a meditator, I just don’t know.

[@briannichols9491]

Great Teaching Swami

[@_eddiecole]

Can someone post links to the sanga and dhamma friends . Id like to join and give others quick access to as well

[@opensanghafoundation3106]

kzbin.info

[@jesamludkorobinhood]

Vajrayana practice changed my life effectively. Probably because of my rather poor practice I do not understand completely why there is a good and bad practice…

[@VeritableVagabond]

I always wonder about Pa auk Sayadaw meditators. If their jhanas are so deep, why are they fully awake.

[@HumbertoMaynoldi]

Respectfully TWIM doesn’t promote sleep deprivation. Much love

[@pennyjay9297]

I would like to hear what he has to say about posture in tantric sex

[@DPSAX95]

I would guess that he would find absolutely ridiculous applying rules even to that.

[@jamesboswell9324]

The Donald Trumps of Buddhism! That's beautiful and hilarious!

[@davidh2081]

I understand the practice very differently. Maybe I don’t understand him. It sounds like this approach is trying to move to comfort - physical, mental, emotional. I’m practicing so “comfort, satisfaction, and success” aren’t important to me anymore. I also think listeners would benefit reading - Race and Religion in American Buddhism, White Supremacy and Immigrant Adaption - by Joseph Cheah. Anyone who uses the phrases “what the Buddha really taught” or talk about “original teachings” should read this book. Cheah points that this attitude is very similar to western Protestantism- claiming authority on the true meaning of the word of God or the Bible. Very interesting that he says other traditions don’t currently teach meditation. 84000 ills, 84000 remedies.

[@TaijiquanGaoshou]

Donate him a singlet !

[@DT-xx8dy]

Seems like a well meaning and highly oppinionated monk, who likes to criticise other traditions on unrealistic grounds, with only superficial understanding of the technique. I personally had excellent results with mahasi and goenka technique in intensive retreat without destroying my knees etc. Based on my direct experience i disagree with many things he said. I guess different strokes for different folks.

[@user-cn3du8zi3z]

Religion is no place for opinions. It's pretty orthodox.

[@Frank-rx9gq]

That guy is a bit delusional. I get that Neo Advaita teacher vibe.

[@Jeff-cz3pj]

A lot of what Dhammarato teaches is of benefit but unfortunately he is convinced his interpretation of the teachings are correct and others are deficient. If you take it as one perspective and keep an open mind it can do good, just dont get caught up in his rigidity.

[@mattmccartney5996]

Since when do Buddhist monks go bare chested?🚩🚩🚩🚩

[@icarus166]

He’s an ex monk, married to a Thai lady with a family. He lives in a house with no airconditioning

[@mattmccartney5996]

@@icarus166 Thanks. I stand corrected.

[@davidmickles5012]

​@@mattmccartney5996rules rules rules..

[@VishalRaoOnYouTube]

Before enlightenment, go bare chested. After enlightenment, go bare chested.

[@petermoore5203]

Can you put some virtual robes on this guy? He looks like he’s reporting from a hot tub. Also, I have little respect for monks who criticise other spiritual paths. Ajahn Sumedho was (1980s when I crossed paths) critical of Vipasssana practitioners; I thought less of him for that at the time. I suspect it comes from insecurity, and hearing it often drove me away from monastics.

[@pencilcase46]

Very poor understanding of what trauma and treatment is. Sometimes one goes deep because that's what practice "says". Been there done that. Maybe staying in robes would be more wise, than blabbering about "right practice" here. Thanks, not impressed 🙏👁️

[@santiagovasquez5967]

Can you go into more detail about what is wrong about his understanding of trauma and treatment?

[@pencilcase46]

@@santiagovasquez5967 kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYa7h4t6adKSatEsi=VvXjSDZOWUQK6G3A

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

I'm not sure middle aged men generally are the proper teachers of how trauma works, given nearly all of them come from generations that reinforced so much toughness and emotional suppression. If one is aware of that I'm impressed. Not being sexist or political, as I lean more towards conservative, just often what I have noticed. I haven't watched the video though, as the person above me said, can you state why?

[@richardparker7710]

Ah, the sin of being a middle aged man. How dare he hold forth on matters that he cannot appreciate, being a middle aged man. And white, too!

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

​@@richardparker7710 I'm not too far from being a middle aged white man. I'm conservative so I don't mean it in a political way either really, and think people could be less hateful about it. But there are times when I notice negative patterns that seem to be common amongst middle aged white men. It's just the way they were raised and spent their life living, there's some definite negatives as there are many for the newer generations. For example I'm really happy trauma awareness is becoming a thing, and yet I also think there's a dark side to that of many people feeling like victims and identifying with that instead of taking the benefit of identifying and talking about and treating trauma without being a victim. There's a hell of a lot more too lol