Ep141: Demystifying Awakening - Stephen Snyder

In this episode I am once again joined by Stephen Snyder, meditation teacher, author, and the first non-monastic Western man to master the virtuoso-level shamata meditation system of Pa Auk Sayadaw.
In this interview we discuss Stephen’s latest book ‘Demysifying Awakening: A Buddhist Path of Realization, Embodiment, and Freedom’.
Stephen gives detailed comparisons between the maps of Theravadan and Zen Buddhism, explains the difference between Kensho and Satori, and reveals why it is so easy to stall after an initial awakening experience.
Stephen also shares techniques to open the Wisdom Eye, loosen allegiance to the body, and transcend the superego; and reveals how he assesses others spiritual experiences and how an individual can self-assess their own level of awakening.
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www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep141-demystifying-awakening-stephen-snyder
Also available on KZbin, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
00:51 - Why is Stephen writing so many books?
05:42 - What is the probability of awakening?
08:46 - Kensho vs Satori probabilities
11:06 - Languishing between Kensho and Satori
13:57 - Self-administered tests of awakening
15:37 - How Stephen assesses his students’ awakenings
17:39 - Opening the Wisdom Eye
20:27 - Energetic resonance of awakening
21:31 - Facsimiles of awakening
23:53 - Confusion around awakening
30:09 - Rebirth, reincarnation, and tulkus
33:00 - Superego and trauma
39:43 - Purifying the body via the four elements
45:44 - Stephen’s experience of the crystal body
48:06 - Loosening allegiance to the body
49:37 - Resistances to jhana and awakening
54:05 - Steve’s practice challenge
58:16 - How to work with intensity and blocks
01:02:09 - The will to live
01:05:17 - Boat meditation
01:06:15 - Comparing the maps of Theravada and Zen
01:13:29 - Fear of No-Self
01:16:32 - Integrating the No-Self
01:19:31 - Koan practice
01:23:16 - Flavours of enlightenment
01:27:24 - Keeping a spiritual journal
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Check out my previous interviews with Stephen:
- www.guruviking.com/ep24-steph...
- www.guruviking.com/ep33-steph...
- www.guruviking.com/ep70-steph...
Purchase ‘Demystifying Awakening’:
- awakeningdharma.org/book/demy...
To find out more about Stephen Snyder, visit:
- awakeningdharma.org/
For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com/
Music 'Deva Dasi' by Steve James

[@orshaharorna.shahar8921]

The most interesting and deepest episode so far. The willingness of both of you to talk about your deepest experiences and difficulties and share with us greatly helped me.

[@TigerTzu]

This is the fist episode I've seen with Snyder. I must say, I'm quite impressed and I think I'll go back and find your previous episodes with him :)

[@synsynsy]

Yup. The good stuff right here. Many thanks Steve & Guests!

[@Samuell8]

Thank you for this episode, so helpful.

[@SamBellGuitar]

I appreciate the Guitar analogies! great interview :)

[@3qguru]

Thank you Steve. I totally relate to that fierce feeling of betrayal of abandonment of the body. Very helpful dialogue for myself. Much love brother

[@TeikevanBaden]

I really enjoyed listening to this interview. Those aspects of the demon Mara, the personification of resistance to awakening and the super-ego/inner critic structure seem to fit very well with this concept of the 'dweller on the threshold' in the more Western oriented material on awakening. Thank you.

[@3260ELEMENT]

Looking forward to this! 🙏

[@thomasjedensjo4316]

Thank you! This is truly a gem. Steve, would you have any more interviews with Stephen Snyder?

[@maildeliverysubsystem3139]

This is awesome. Thank you.

[@alexhusum]

wonderful !!!

[@paulmitchell5349]

A ''legitimate'' experience? This is precisely why Zen is so wary of words.

[@nomitnegi2265]

He resonate with my experience

[@LeftOfToday]

That super-ego bit seems very important. The terminology is very psychoanalytic, but we all certainly have a level of inner demons or critics. I know for me, experiencing a certain level of attainment seemed to make such super-ego elements furious and threatened by my possibility of transcending them. I was actually naturally inclined to respond in the way Stephen described, yet I still feel as though they 'won' in the end as it seems I've dropped right back to where I was before (and with a hard clonk to boot!). That said, there are definite positive changes - albeit small ones - and out of the internal 'battle' with a fiercely negative voice within my mind, I have made more consistent contact with the inner voice that is nothing but kind and reassuring. I tell you what though: those super-ego elements know exactly where to hit you to hurt and frighten you as much as possible, perhaps especially if you've suffered great trauma. I can imagine that holds true given that such cruel mindsets were able to even make a home within one's mind/body when they had no place all along. I think what I missed when this experience occurred though is that I didn't need to welcome those voices with an open hand; I didn't need to accept their cruelty with an open mind; I didn't need to lay down my defences with an open body; I needed to find a way to let the voices speak without them penetrating the barrier I'd created that threatened them all along, and which had finally put them on the outside - separated - from my newfound freedom and space from them. Like you said, Steve, about a golden thread in your own experiences pertaining to blockages, and tying this into the idea of not identifying with these aspects as self-experiences: a thread can make a cloth, but the cloth - no matter how close to the skin - will never become the body, and if we can make these experiences cloth-like in their nature, we can likely pull their strings to dismantle their forms, and dismantle our armour. I gather this is kind of what is meant by 'loosening of the allegiance' to the body that Stephen mentions, too, alongside the need for a space to work from within (perhaps like the subtle space between cloth and body). If we can - piece by piece - begin to separate the identified aspect (say trauma) and gently move it out of being 'part' of our body/mind, to become the cloth, to then become it's smallest particle... Well, then its very fabric doesn't hold much weight anymore! I like it! Great talk :)

[@DorKonforty]

Where might one read more about the "Wisdom Eye"? (book isn't out yet!)

[@David-fp3qg]

ironically I also find toglen works well with trauma/super ego

[@penguin0101]

Zen has a notion of “true nature” whereas there is the notion of “non-self” or no independent essence, does these two notions contradict? If not, how to the relate?

[@9digitNo]

Please look for "prayer for logos" on youtube. It's a surprising analysis of the Sigrdrifa prayer, the awakening of the divine feminine (=soul) as found in the Old Norse mythology. You may find it interesting.

[@chadkline4268]

Steve, struggle to remain alive: body has a natural disposition to reflexively protect itself. Spirit has intent. Struggle to stay alive is both in union. Could be a spiritual barrier because your intents are strongly aligned with flesh. You may just as well have lived if you would've let go and allowed the body to manage itself. Yes, I say your innate intentions are a barrier. Cessation is death. You can't get there without being willing to die.

[@chadkline4268]

Mystifying: guest says at 1:06:30 that Kensho is Stream Entry. But earlier he says there may be several Kenshos, earlier he says every consecutive Kensho differs from the previous ... He seems to define stream entry based upon the length of time one experiences true nature? 5 sec Kensho not stream entry. Satori definitely stream entry.

[@PeaceSC2]

You're putting question marks after statements. Are you confusing yourself?

[@bxnxjmin]

stream entry follows cessation of experience

[@PeaceSC2]

​@@bxnxjmin Awakening is not the cessation of experience. The cessation of experience is oblivion. Mistaking oblivion, or the absence of experience/awareness, to be enlightenment is annihilationism.

[@bxnxjmin]

@@PeaceSC2 not true. Stream entry requires a cessation. Kensho, whatever you may call it.

[@PeaceSC2]

​ @sonder Yes, a cessation is a requirement (for those that agree with the the Therevadan Abhidammic view). But, it is a mistake to conflate cessation and oblivion. The path and fruit moments of awareness (what gets colloquially called cessation), according to Therevada Abhidhamma, are experiences. That is to say, those moments have a quality of knowingness or awareness. In Pali, these moments are called magga citta and phala citta. Magga is path. Phala is fruit. Citta is aware. Oblivion is not the way.

[@moonmissy]

“Useful”? A very American approach to spiritual practice. Isn’t the end of sufferings useful enough?

[@chadkline4268]

Will he demystify, or mystify further? 🥴🤪🤑

[@sugarfree1894]

I find it sad that there is so much emphasis on standards, achievements and measuring. What is the scale against which one's state is compared? It's a species of commodification, it seems to me. Hierarchical and product-driven. It leads me to wonder about the circumstances and motivations that lead some people to practice. From the description and definition of awakening given, anyone who wants to believe themselves to be awakened has the opportunity to do so. There's a weird combination of categorization and subjectively interpretable description.

[@chadkline4268]

As for me, the standard is direct knowledge of the end of the rounds of rebirth. I want something better than flesh existence. Can you teach me the steps to acquire that experience?

[@sugarfree1894]

@@chadkline4268 Sit still, spine unsupported, eyes open and fixed on one point about 2 or three feet in front of you, for about 20 minutes. Every day. Every day, mind :)

[@chadkline4268]

@@sugarfree1894 🥴 I'm still mystified after listening to the demystifiers.

[@sugarfree1894]

@@chadkline4268 Ah mate, I get that. Sometimes I wonder if they keep it mysterious on purpose. For my part, it's nut down, every day, silence. It is mysterious, but you can explore it for yourself.

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

@@sugarfree1894 Meido Roshi often points out that one of the biggest mistakes is to focus your gaze on one point. The gaze should be stretched as wide and vertical as possible. Meido Roshi also says that the minimum meditation time is two hours a day.

[@matthewrousseau2982]

Is he claiming buddhahood🙄