EPISODE 2 - Scott & Mark Learn To... How Not to Ship the Org Chart

In this episode of Scott & Mark Learn To, Scott Hanselman and Mark Russinovich discuss the concept of shipping the org chart, a term used to describe when different teams' outputs are inconsistently integrated, reflecting the organizational structure rather than a cohesive product. Scott recounts his experience test-driving an electric vehicle with a disjointed interface, which made him question the internal coordination within the automaker. Mark explains how Microsoft addresses this issue through standardization and tooling, emphasizing the need for consistent APIs and user experiences. They also debate the balance between maintaining consistency and fostering innovation, and how large tech companies like Microsoft and Apple manage these challenges.
Listen to other episodes at scottandmarkle...
Discover other Microsoft podcasts at microsoft.com/...
Code: ZCNTOBBGIRBPX9CQ

[@Lucas-dq9wf]

I like the attention to detail, with the seek bars moving in the windows as the video plays😊

[@takistewart3404]

I really like the format where you're sitting within your own .mov windows. So nostalgic at the same time

[@Johncrowther]

I like this format. You guys are always interesting to listen to and whilst I could spend hours doing that, I prefer these short, single-subject focused episodes. There's plenty of other ramble-banter podcasts out there so please try hard not to evolve into another!

[@colhountech]

#Recommendation: A really great way to not ship the Org Chart and to "Shift Left" in the context of Cloud Migration, is investigate Azure Landing Zones (ALZ) - see the Ready Stage of the Cloud Adoption Framework - I've learnt so much about this recently! Really like this format folks!

[@jazzweather]

Two of my favorite guys at Microsoft 💛

[@Gonkers44]

This is stuff that I wish I knew in the beginning of my career. This is great information and I love the conversational format.

[@bitelogger]

Amazing episode, just the intro taught me more than years of “training”

[@Rakibulislam-vq3yj]

Great podcast, I like this one

[@victornoagbodji]

Incredibly interesting episode! Thank guys 🙏 😊 I learned a name/expression I can put on the same phenomenon I have noticed. It goes beyond a single organization sometimes. When it comes to the web, I truly empathize with developers when the same website behaves differently depending on the application you use to access it. We may need another term to describe that global kind of interoperability 😊

[@lukemurraynz]

Awesome nice one! To be fair, Scott, I would have been put off by the fonts as well! I had come across Ship the org chart in the past, but it's not something I have heard in a while, it's a great reminder of that phrase, though! From a people and process perspective, I think it is having that DACI (Driver, Approver, Contributors, Informed) model well defined - and then the product framework 'shifting left' - let the tooling do the work! I would love a conversion around - when is it good enough?! Perfection is the enemy of good, if you aim for perfection - nothing ever gets shipped, as your constantly moving that invisible goalpost! How do you decide the 'lets just get it shipped and YOLO' vs 'no we need to work a bit more on that'!

[@nonlinearsound-001]

Everyone is shipping his org chart actually. You just want to make that chart so good, your product will be good as well :)

[@jimshtepa5423]

Scott, amazing presentation. thank you for sharing knowledge. what license is this video under? can I use it for kaggle competition that has been announced today by gemini team exploring long context abilities of their gemini 1.5 model?

[@7alken]

this will be great guys, tnx;

[@itsandytails]

These are great! Really useful information. Different fonts in a PowerPoint is grating, no way i could tolerate that in my car.

[@petropzqi]

This is gold

[@kitda]

great video

[@ChristianMogensen]

Shipping the org chart = Conway's Law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

[@gilesmiles8458]

Certainly close, but not all departmental systems are products.

[@KevinStevens-kevdog]

Kind of. Conway's Law is that the software follows the communication pattern of the organization, which is usually radically different than the org chart.

[@van_dutch]

I have been speaking to this for years, and always surprised at how many people know the symptoms, but don't realize it's a real phenomenon in the industry.

[@KowalskiTom]

💯 If you find yourself "shipping the org chart" and you don't like it then there is an issue with the org chart. Conway's law wins out every time.

[@ankur-dhama]

Imagine if all the different online meeting software start using one window per participant video.

[@tonoso]

Books: 1.Team topologies, 2.Accelerate, 3.Clean Architecture

[@9rune5]

I think laptops were hit extra hard by the CPU family cutoff since they tend to use older CPU generations. I have a Dell Precision with a 4k UHD touch screen and 32GB memory. It was bought in 2012 or so. But the CPU (i7 920 IIRC) is too old for Win11. It is still a decently specced PC, so sustainability-wise it feels wrong to just dispose of it. (I'll install Linux eventually, no worries)

[@tj2375]

If you were in a car from a legacy manufacturer they weren't android tablets! For example the instrument cluster runs a real time OS and the UI is developed specifically. The only place you can find android is in the multimedia unit but even there is specifical hardware running an hypervisor with a real time OS taking care of talking to the other auto parts and a separate android instance. They're not android tablets. And that's the main reason the aesthetics are not consistent. Of course a car is an integration of multiple systems, and many are sourced from specialized manufacturers. Auto companies don't manufacture 100% of the vehicle.

[@KowalskiTom]

If you find yourself "shipping the org chart" and you don't like it then there is an issue with the org chart. Conway's law wins out every time.

[@laszlo6501]

Did you find any good reads about these topics?

[@idlewise]

Conway's Law

[@madoksback]

It’s now starting to sound like a big Microsoft advert to your podcast

[@FlorianZevedei]

@shanselman would be interesting, if it fits, getting some insights and ideas on "how to do's" from Mark about the SysInternals times back in the day, yep im from these times 😀