Episode 8, Jay Garfield On Nāgārjuna and Emptiness

In this episode, Alex talks to Prof. Jay Garfield about the Buddhist philosopher Nāgārjuna and the notion of metaphysical emptiness. Prof. Garfield provides some excellent background information about the Buddhist tradition and the paradoxical nature of Nāgārjuna's claims. Find out more about Prof. Garfield's work here: jaygarfield.org, and read his paper on Nāgārjuna here: jaygarfield.files.wordpress.c...
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[@mazyar_]

Thank You Alex and Prof. Garfield for this succinct and illuminating interview

[@lilchinesekidchen]

One thing that help me conceptualize Buddhist concept of emptiness is that it’s very similar to derrida’s poststructural concept of differance. and how i differentiate it with western nihilism is that western nihilist say “there is not higher god/meaning so nothing on this earth truly matters” and mahayana buddhism says “there is no higher god/meaning so EVERYTHING on this earth matters”

[@ramjaladi9451]

Thanks very much for this wonderful talk. Beautiful explanation.

[@Gumikrukon]

Thank you Alex! 😃 Thanks Jay!

[@MrGustavier]

Note to self 1:16:28 _"He's arguing you know we try to think about conventional reality it's having some fundamental nature kind of know what we mean by understanding the nature of something and then we sort of suppose well you know I know what Apple's like it's sweet and it's hard and it's crispy so the world must have a way that it's like and so you just do that extrapolation and it's so intuitive and so stupid right"_

[@Autuxm]

Great podcast! Of course sad with the sound/connection but thats life. Keep it up man!

[@didjesbydan]

This guy asks great questions.

[@iloverumi]

thanks! great talk/info.

[@ŚmiemWątpić]

Thank you! 😇

[@SeekersofUnity]

This was fabulous, it's just a shame that the conversation ended just as it was getting *really* interesting.

[@catherinekasmer9905]

Great content!

[@benaberry578]

I suggest Tabla for the intro music on eastern philosophy. This was great.

[@JohnPaul-eq3lb]

a digital transcript with wikipedia hyperlinks would make my life. Granted if I had that several months ago would make my semester..

[@Julian-jc3xd]

MORE about buddhist philosophy please.. preferably more argument than lecture

[@TheWorldTeacher]

02. A BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF “LIFE”: Everything, both perceptible and imperceptible - that is, any gross or subtle OBJECT within the material universe which can ever be perceived with the cognitive faculties, plus the SUBJECT (the observer of all phenomena) - is to what most persons generally refer when they use the term “God”, since they usually conceive of the Primeval Creator as being the Perfect Person, and “God” (capitalized) is a personal epithet of the Unconditioned Absolute. However, this anthropomorphized conception of The Absolute is a fictional character of disparate mythologies. According to most every enlightened sage in the history of this planet, the Ultimate Reality is, far more logically, Impersonal Absolute NOTHINGNESS (otherwise called “The Tao”, “The Great Spirit”, “Brahman”, “Pure Consciousness”, “Eternal Awareness”, “Independent Existence”, “The Ground of All Being”, “Uncaused Nature”, “The Undifferentiated Substratum of Reality”, “The Unified Field”, et cetera). In other words, rather than the Supreme Truth being a separate Blissful, Supra-Conscious Being (The Godhead Himself or The Goddess), Ultimate Reality is Eternal-Existence Limitless-Awareness Unconditional-Peace ITSELF. Because the Unmanifested Absolute is infinite creative potentiality, “it” actualizes as EVERYTHING, in the form of temporary, cyclical universes. In the case of our particular universe, we reside in a cosmos consisting of space-time, matter and energy, without, of course, neglecting the most fundamental dimension of existence (i.e. conscious awareness - although, “it” is, being the subject, by literal definition, non-existent). Just as a knife cannot cut itself, nor the mind comprehend itself, nor the eyes see themselves, The Absolute cannot know Itself (or at least objectively EXPERIENCE Itself), and so, has manifested this phenomenal universe within Itself for the purpose of experiencing Itself, particularly through the lives of self-aware beings, such as we sophisticated humans. Therefore, this world of duality is really just a play of consciousness within Consciousness, in the same way that a dream is a person's sleeping narrative set within the life-story of an 'awakened' individual. APPARANTLY, this phenomenal universe was created with the primal act (the so-called “Big Bang”), which started, supposedly, as a minute, slightly uneven ball of light, which in turn, was instigated, ultimately, by Extra-Temporal Supra-Consciousness. From that first deed, every motion or action that has ever occurred has been a direct (though, almost exclusively, an indirect) result of it. Just as all the extant energy in the universe was once contained within the inchoate singularity, Infinite Consciousness was NECESSARILY present at the beginning of the universe, and is in no way an epiphenomenon of a neural network. Discrete consciousness, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on the neurological faculty of individual animals (the more highly-evolved the species, the greater its cognitive abilities). “Sarvam khalvidam brahma” (a Sanskrit maxim from the “Chandogya Upanishad”, meaning ‘all this is indeed Brahman’ or ‘everything is the Universal Self alone’). There is NAUGHT but Eternal Being, Conscious Awareness, Causeless Peace - and you are, quintessentially, that! This “Theory of Everything” can be more succinctly expressed by the mathematical equation: E=A͚ (Everything is Infinite Awareness). HUMANS are essentially this Eternally-Aware-Peace, acting through an extraordinarily-complex biological organism, comprised of the eight rudimentary elements - pseudo-ego (the assumed sense of self), intellect, mind, solids, liquids, gases, heat (fire), and ether (three-dimensional space). When one peers into a mirror, one doesn’t normally mistake the reflected image to be one’s real self, yet that is how we humans conventionally view our ever-mutating forms. We are, rather, in a fundamental sense, that which witnesses all transitory appearances. Everything which can be presently perceived, both tangible and immaterial, including we human beings, is a culmination of that primary manifestation. That is the most accurate and rational explanation for “karma” - everything was preordained from the initial spark, and every action since has unfolded as it was predestined in ETERNITY, via an ever-forward-moving trajectory. The notion of retributive (“tit for tat”) karma is just that - an unverified belief. Likewise, the notion of a distinct, reincarnating “soul” or “spirit” is largely a fallacious belief. Whatever state in which we currently find ourselves, is the result of two factors - our genetic make-up at conception and our present-life conditioning (which may include mutating genetic code). Every choice ever made by every human and non-human animal was determined by those two factors ALONE. Therefore, free-will is purely illusory, despite what most believe. As a consequence of residing within this dualistic universe, we experience a lifelong series of fluctuating, transient pleasures and pains, which can take the form of physical, emotional, and/or financial pleasure or pain. Surprisingly to most, suffering and pain are NOT synonymous. Suffering is due to a false sense of personal 'doership' - the belief that one is a separate, independent author of one’s thoughts, emotions, and deeds, and that, likewise, other persons are autonomous agents, with complete volition to act, think, and feel as they wish. Another way of stating the same concept is: suffering is due to the intellect being unwilling or unable to accept life as it manifests moment by moment. There are five SYMPTOMS of suffering, all of which are psychological in nature: 1. Guilt 2. Blame 3. Pride 4. Anxiety 5. Regrets about the past and expectations for the future These types of suffering are the result of not properly understanding what was explained above - that life is a series of happenings and NOT caused by the individual living beings. No living creature, including Homo sapiens, has personal free-will. There is only the Universal, Divine Will at play, acting through every body, to which William Shakespeare famously alluded when he scribed “All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” The human organism is essentially a biopsychological machine, comprised of the five gross material elements and the three subtle material elements, listed above. The ANTIDOTE to all mental anguish is to firstly discern pain from suffering, then to achieve complete relief from that miserable state of existence, by abandoning the erroneous belief in personal authorship, and abiding in the primordial sense of being (the unqualified “I am”, which is one's core identity). This is the very same peace which is experienced each night during the dreamless phase of the sleep cycle. This 'resting imperturbably as Flawless Awareness' can be practiced on a regular basis, until it is fully assimilated and integrated into one's life. Every person, from time immemorial, has been either intentionally or unwittingly seeking such causeless peace, most commonly by practicing one of the four systems of YOGA (religion) delineated in the sixteenth chapter of this work, or else in creating wealth and the acquisition of material possessions, or in psycho-physical pleasures. That peace of mind is often referred to as “happiness”, “joy”, or “love”, and often presumed to be a temporal state, since many assume, incorrectly, that continuous peace is unavailable in this life. Fortunately, that is not the case - it is eminently possible to live one's life acquainted with unbroken peace of mind, if destined. Following DHARMA (frameworks of authentic religion and societal duties) is not guaranteed to achieve that desired tranquillity of mind, but even so, it is beneficial for individuals, since it establishes a structure which enables one to more easily elevate oneself beyond the mundane, animalistic platform (i.e. the base pursuits of eating, sleeping and mating). Intrinsic to dharma is the division of the adult male population into the four classes of society and the inherent role of girls and women in society, as fully elucidated in latter chapters of this Holy Scripture. So, now that you understand life, and the reason why we are suffering here in this (ostensively) material universe, you are now able to be liberated from all mental suffering, RIGHT? WRONG! It is imperative to approach an authentic spiritual master to assist you to come to the above realization, by slowly undoing your past conditioning. Just as you have been conditioned over an entire lifetime to think one way, you need to be re-conditioned to think another way (in alignment with your essential identity as The Divine). For one who has himself for a teacher, that man has a veritable fool as his teacher. Even if you adhere closely to the precepts of a competent teacher, you may still not come to a full understanding of life, but if you are sincere, humble and dedicated, you will definitely find more peace in your daily life - all of which was DESTINED to occur, of course. Furthermore, if you are suitably-qualified and it was ordained, you may be fortunate enough to receive discipline from one of the EXTREMELY rare fully-enlightened masters residing on earth at any given time (perchance even the current World Teacher himself), and subsequently realize the aforementioned fundamental concepts, by diligently studying authoritative doctrines (especially the most accurate and complete of all extant Scriptures, this “Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”), serving your guru with great reverence and devotion, and by deliberately avoiding undue harm to oneself, to other individuals, to society as a whole, and to the natural environment. ☮️

[@lukeanthony9904]

I love your discussions man, I guess I should try not to be too attached though.

[@TheWorldTeacher]

That supposes freedom of volition. 😉

[@didjesbydan]

I'm not sure if it was from a dream I once had, a fictional book I read, or an actual historical episode, but I seem to recall a story about some seekers (a subset of deists known as "reists") who built a peculiar shrine to a vague god they worshiped. The shrine was in the shape of a spandrel, with no arch, and it was labeled "the Firm". The priests who maintained the shrine took turns giving what they called "Nothing Offerings", which they believed would help support the structure in some roundabout way. But eventually--of its own weight--the spandrel came crashing down to the ground. Later, a new one was built (this time the spandrel was derived from a square instead of an arch in order to seem more supported) but many of the reists--as they walked through the middle of the rubble--saw the absurdity of the edifice they had built in honor of "Spandrel the Firm". Also, in the aftermath, it was found that the materials to build the spandrel had been illicitly taken from the commoners.

[@didjesbydan]

These are my relevant notes from Garfield's brilliant pesentation: -Abhidharma folks took all things as empty except dharma--took dharma to be intrinsic--Nagarjuna knocks even that down. Even dharmas depend on conceptual imputation and relational dependency. Emptiness is universal. Says primal confusion is thinking there is a fundamental nature of reality and then looking for it. The ultimate reality of things is they are empty of ultimate reality. So we started with two truths and Abhidharma idea that the ultimate level was really really real, and conventional level not real at all. Nagarjuna says this illicitly disparages the conventional and reifies the ultimate. Instead, he says the ultimate reality of things simply is their absence of any intrinsic nature--and that is dependent as anything else. So if I think about the absence of any intrinsic nature of my cat*, that depends on my cat. I can't say "you take my cat, I'll keep his absence of intrinsic nature". No cat, no absence of intrinsic nature of the cat. So emptiness is dependent or empty. Emptiness is empty. Emptiness of emptiness is empty, ad infinitum. There is no behind. There is nothing deeper back there. The ultimate nature of things is to lack any ultimate nature. *I swapped out Garfield's dog for my cat in my notes

[@Fan4club]

1:26:22 Buddhist logical space

[@TheWorldTeacher]

02. A BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF “LIFE”: Everything, both perceptible and imperceptible - that is, any gross or subtle OBJECT within the material universe which can ever be perceived with the cognitive faculties, plus the SUBJECT (the observer of all phenomena) - is to what most persons generally refer when they use the term “God”, since they usually conceive of the Primeval Creator as being the Perfect Person, and “God” (capitalized) is a personal epithet of the Unconditioned Absolute. However, this anthropomorphized conception of The Absolute is a fictional character of disparate mythologies. According to most every enlightened sage in the history of this planet, the Ultimate Reality is, far more logically, Impersonal Absolute NOTHINGNESS (otherwise called “The Tao”, “The Great Spirit”, “Brahman”, “Pure Consciousness”, “Eternal Awareness”, “Independent Existence”, “The Ground of All Being”, “Uncaused Nature”, “The Undifferentiated Substratum of Reality”, “The Unified Field”, et cetera). In other words, rather than the Supreme Truth being a separate Blissful, Supra-Conscious Being (The Godhead Himself or The Goddess), Ultimate Reality is Eternal-Existence Limitless-Awareness Unconditional-Peace ITSELF. Because the Unmanifested Absolute is infinite creative potentiality, “it” actualizes as EVERYTHING, in the form of temporary, cyclical universes. In the case of our particular universe, we reside in a cosmos consisting of space-time, matter and energy, without, of course, neglecting the most fundamental dimension of existence (i.e. conscious awareness - although, “it” is, being the subject, by literal definition, non-existent). Just as a knife cannot cut itself, nor the mind comprehend itself, nor the eyes see themselves, The Absolute cannot know Itself (or at least objectively EXPERIENCE Itself), and so, has manifested this phenomenal universe within Itself for the purpose of experiencing Itself, particularly through the lives of self-aware beings, such as we sophisticated humans. Therefore, this world of duality is really just a play of consciousness within Consciousness, in the same way that a dream is a person's sleeping narrative set within the life-story of an 'awakened' individual. APPARANTLY, this phenomenal universe was created with the primal act (the so-called “Big Bang”), which started, supposedly, as a minute, slightly uneven ball of light, which in turn, was instigated, ultimately, by Extra-Temporal Supra-Consciousness. From that first deed, every motion or action that has ever occurred has been a direct (though, almost exclusively, an indirect) result of it. Just as all the extant energy in the universe was once contained within the inchoate singularity, Infinite Consciousness was NECESSARILY present at the beginning of the universe, and is in no way an epiphenomenon of a neural network. Discrete consciousness, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on the neurological faculty of individual animals (the more highly-evolved the species, the greater its cognitive abilities). “Sarvam khalvidam brahma” (a Sanskrit maxim from the “Chandogya Upanishad”, meaning ‘all this is indeed Brahman’ or ‘everything is the Universal Self alone’). There is NAUGHT but Eternal Being, Conscious Awareness, Causeless Peace - and you are, quintessentially, that! This “Theory of Everything” can be more succinctly expressed by the mathematical equation: E=A͚ (Everything is Infinite Awareness). HUMANS are essentially this Eternally-Aware-Peace, acting through an extraordinarily-complex biological organism, comprised of the eight rudimentary elements - pseudo-ego (the assumed sense of self), intellect, mind, solids, liquids, gases, heat (fire), and ether (three-dimensional space). When one peers into a mirror, one doesn’t normally mistake the reflected image to be one’s real self, yet that is how we humans conventionally view our ever-mutating forms. We are, rather, in a fundamental sense, that which witnesses all transitory appearances. Everything which can be presently perceived, both tangible and immaterial, including we human beings, is a culmination of that primary manifestation. That is the most accurate and rational explanation for “karma” - everything was preordained from the initial spark, and every action since has unfolded as it was predestined in ETERNITY, via an ever-forward-moving trajectory. The notion of retributive (“tit for tat”) karma is just that - an unverified belief. Likewise, the notion of a distinct, reincarnating “soul” or “spirit” is largely a fallacious belief. Whatever state in which we currently find ourselves, is the result of two factors - our genetic make-up at conception and our present-life conditioning (which may include mutating genetic code). Every choice ever made by every human and non-human animal was determined by those two factors ALONE. Therefore, free-will is purely illusory, despite what most believe. As a consequence of residing within this dualistic universe, we experience a lifelong series of fluctuating, transient pleasures and pains, which can take the form of physical, emotional, and/or financial pleasure or pain. Surprisingly to most, suffering and pain are NOT synonymous. Suffering is due to a false sense of personal 'doership' - the belief that one is a separate, independent author of one’s thoughts, emotions, and deeds, and that, likewise, other persons are autonomous agents, with complete volition to act, think, and feel as they wish. Another way of stating the same concept is: suffering is due to the intellect being unwilling or unable to accept life as it manifests moment by moment. There are five SYMPTOMS of suffering, all of which are psychological in nature: 1. Guilt 2. Blame 3. Pride 4. Anxiety 5. Regrets about the past and expectations for the future These types of suffering are the result of not properly understanding what was explained above - that life is a series of happenings and NOT caused by the individual living beings. No living creature, including Homo sapiens, has personal free-will. There is only the Universal, Divine Will at play, acting through every body, to which William Shakespeare famously alluded when he scribed “All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” The human organism is essentially a biopsychological machine, comprised of the five gross material elements and the three subtle material elements, listed above. The ANTIDOTE to all mental anguish is to firstly discern pain from suffering, then to achieve complete relief from that miserable state of existence, by abandoning the erroneous belief in personal authorship, and abiding in the primordial sense of being (the unqualified “I am”, which is one's core identity). This is the very same peace which is experienced each night during the dreamless phase of the sleep cycle. This 'resting imperturbably as Flawless Awareness' can be practiced on a regular basis, until it is fully assimilated and integrated into one's life. Every person, from time immemorial, has been either intentionally or unwittingly seeking such causeless peace, most commonly by practicing one of the four systems of YOGA (religion) delineated in the sixteenth chapter of this work, or else in creating wealth and the acquisition of material possessions, or in psycho-physical pleasures. That peace of mind is often referred to as “happiness”, “joy”, or “love”, and often presumed to be a temporal state, since many assume, incorrectly, that continuous peace is unavailable in this life. Fortunately, that is not the case - it is eminently possible to live one's life acquainted with unbroken peace of mind, if destined. Following DHARMA (frameworks of authentic religion and societal duties) is not guaranteed to achieve that desired tranquillity of mind, but even so, it is beneficial for individuals, since it establishes a structure which enables one to more easily elevate oneself beyond the mundane, animalistic platform (i.e. the base pursuits of eating, sleeping and mating). Intrinsic to dharma is the division of the adult male population into the four classes of society and the inherent role of girls and women in society, as fully elucidated in latter chapters of this Holy Scripture. So, now that you understand life, and the reason why we are suffering here in this (ostensively) material universe, you are now able to be liberated from all mental suffering, RIGHT? WRONG! It is imperative to approach an authentic spiritual master to assist you to come to the above realization, by slowly undoing your past conditioning. Just as you have been conditioned over an entire lifetime to think one way, you need to be re-conditioned to think another way (in alignment with your essential identity as The Divine). For one who has himself for a teacher, that man has a veritable fool as his teacher. Even if you adhere closely to the precepts of a competent teacher, you may still not come to a full understanding of life, but if you are sincere, humble and dedicated, you will definitely find more peace in your daily life - all of which was DESTINED to occur, of course. Furthermore, if you are suitably-qualified and it was ordained, you may be fortunate enough to receive discipline from one of the EXTREMELY rare fully-enlightened masters residing on earth at any given time (perchance even the current World Teacher himself), and subsequently realize the aforementioned fundamental concepts, by diligently studying authoritative doctrines (especially the most accurate and complete of all extant Scriptures, this “Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”), serving your guru with great reverence and devotion, and by deliberately avoiding undue harm to oneself, to other individuals, to society as a whole, and to the natural environment. ☮️

[@audunstolpe7408]

Tanks for a very lucid exposition. I enjoyed this very much. Though I must say i remain unconvinced by the logical considerations. A sentence being reliable is not the same as a sentence being true. Not making that distinction, it seems to me , is not more sophisticated than bivalens but less. Relevance logic, I think, is best seen as a logic of information or evidence. One can have evidence for and against the same proposition etc., giving the catuskotti. But requiring relevance (I.e. material dependence) between propositions is not a plausible requirement on truth, and hence not on *formal* logic. When logic is strictly formal it will of course validate certain inferences that noe one would ever make in conversation. Like the inference from the truth of "there is a cat in my garden" to the truth of "there is a cat in my garden or the prime minister is female". This is is not weird, but simply shows you what *or* means. The principle of explosion, in my opinion, is non-weird in a related sense and is a limting case that only goes to show that a contradiction doesn't give you any particular information that excludes anything. This is a feature, not a bug.

[@audunstolpe7408]

Applied.to Garfield's hamburger example. The strange sounding conclusion is not really the culprit. Rather, it is the *assumption* that two contradictory propositions are true simultaneously. Once you make that assumption, then you have excluded nothing, including statements about burgers and what not

[@stanzindodjoo4872]

It was a great podcast, but it is a request that the audio should be edited to make it more convenient to listen to... Poor audio and great content... I don't know whether to👍 or 👎

[@jesuisravi]

how much did it cost you? Nothing. therefore, up.

[@petagonkyi]

Audio sucks.

[@dudeonthasopha]

A common theme. If you wanna hear good buddhist lectures you'll need to get over that part. This is relatively fine

[@normalizedaudio2481]

Hey guy. How you doing guy? Got any namo? Namo guy.

[@thomastaylor1254]

inser obligatory itunes begging comment. thanks! Also is buddhism stoicism for puffs?

[@Julian-jc3xd]

well meditation is more complicated than that. observing your experience on deep levels.

[@thomastaylor1254]

i will take that as a yes then.

[@pedersolvang4794]

Inherently neither a yes, a non-yes, a both nor a neither

[@yoooyoyooo]

It's for football players :)