Making .36 Cal Combustable Cartridges with the Manley Cartridge Former

[@kidhammer2567]

I went to Joanns fabrics and bought a circular 5/8" fabric punch and punch several layers of papers, about six to ten at a punching to create my envelope bases for .36 and .44 envelopes with no need to use pennies or dimes. my punch with a $5.00 off store coupon was about $5.00. I've made hundreds of them with my fabric punch. I use Lee's different cc scoops in accordance w/my corresponding .36 or .44 1Fg or 2Ffg of 3 Fffg powder charge to fill my envelope from loose powder in a tub. This system works quite well for me. Thanks for sharing your video with us, sir.

[@Drebin-8427]

This is the future right here.

[@PirateChiefPC1]

Superb demonstration, Mr. Hubbs!

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Thank you sir!

[@daveybernard1056]

I bet women and kids during the civil war were spending 10 or 12 hours a day, 6 days a week doing this exact fiddly job, getting paid peanuts. Kind of puts it in perspective when us reloaders gripe about having to fiddle for 1 hour to make a huge pile of ammo...

[@georgeholt8929]

Please read more about history and you'll discover that at least one such factory setup making these paper cartridges had some problems with employees following the rules. It turns out the men who were hired to load the ammo were lighting tobacco while on the job and they blew up the assembly line. the shop had then decided to put the women and then children to work since they were more fearful of the line boss, therefore were not going to make the same mistake. Of course women having smaller hands were likely going to make a better finished product,.

[@craigcook1571]

It was like that all over the north with all occupations even before the Civil War. Some say that the majority of the slaves had it better than the people up north that working in the sweat shops. I believe that to a degree. They were working people to death, both old and young, Male and female before the unions came about.

[@christopherbender9794]

@@craigcook1571 except for the whole business of being owned and not getting to be free.. ever..

[@kingtut1389]

Pretty awesome I recently picked up a 1951 Colt this is definitely awesome information thank you very much for making it public

[@doranmaxwell1755]

I had to make something for my little 31 caliber revolver. I got a block of teflon 3/4 " thickand drilled 10 holes in it the base size. Then I took a tapered ream to taper the hole siightly The mandrel I made from wood just making sure it had a taper. I found my razor blade wandered in the groove so I use a rubber O ring i9t works as a guide for the blade and it doesn't get cut cause the flat of the blade is what is touching... also.. this gives the wide end a bit of a flare. These 31 caliber envelopes are TINY setting a ball on the charged envelope is difficult with the edge folding over a lot of times. the flare really makes it a lot easier I push the ball down with the edge of the glue stick lid lol... my fingers are covered with glue by then and the ball won't let go of my finger so the plastic edge works. for the end cap I find that cheap paper punches (5/8 in this case) will do a dozen or so cigg papers at a time. So why all the holes? well... by the time I get to the last one all the others are dry Even with a flask I have to use a funnel. my funnel actually had too big a spout so I put a bit of heat shrink on the end and shrunk it down... this also gives the spout a bit of a taper. Like I said... I need the taper for my round ball loads I experimented with the mandrel forming length until I got a tube that when seated to the bottom left about an eighth of an inch sticking up being all flare it is easy to seat glued round balls I did discover that having the ten holes or however many you want... speeds up the process a lot for me. no waiting for anything to dry. using my imperfectly tapered mandrel and teflon block and the very thin zig zag papers and a ball.... means my cartridges are somewhat loose but that is not importand to me as I will be ramming em home anyway

[@jamesbasler1521]

That's great! I look forward to trying it.

[@timshok]

could this be used with plain old round balls?

[@cheddarchip1013]

What is the overall length of the paper case? And what is the largest and smallest point of the paper case at each end. Are the dimensions the same as listed in the C.S.A ordinance manual?

[@KathrynLiz1]

I use a similar male former but don't use the other mating female piece at all as I put the end caps on with my fingers. I use Lee 200gr .44 bullets and run them through my lube sizer. The lube sticks the bullet in the cartridge which saves lubing them afterwards, or having to glue the bullets in. My end caps are cut with a punch, 1/2" dia and I use nitrated tissue which leaves little residue in the chambers, even after several reloads without cleaning. I can make about 40 cartridges in an hour but that doesn't include the preparatory work in casting the bullets and making the papers and end caps. Very convenient in the field to have these, especially as I am always shooting against others who are using metallic cartridge arms.

[@TheYjmfan]

I’ve been loading 44 paper cartridges with end papers but with a 454 ball which I’ve hand cast 30gr black powder.came out pretty good.

[@TYRDIN1]

yea i was wondering could u make paper cartridges with ball

[@TheYjmfan]

Spode pingatore yes they work very well.

[@wolfswesterns6650]

Can a person lubricate the bullet after the cartridge is assembled? By just dipping the bullet end of the cartridge into hot wax or something similar. It seems to me that the glue may not properly stick to a lubricated bullet. If I don't know my butt from a hole in the ground, please say so. Thanks.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Wolf, indeed you can. Here is my video on how I think they were done during the Civil War, on a much small scale, of course! Thanks! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJjIcoOBgLKZaqM

[@tdnolting8859]

You might ask Russell Smith to make a hollow mandrel to pour powder through.

[@HoodRoI3]

Where can I buy these moulds? Pls tell me they ship worldwide 🍻

[@themischeifguide]

Do you know where I can get those templates for cutting the .36 and. 44 paper. I have a stack of nitrated paper from making sharps cartridges.

[@djay6651]

I use the same glue when making 5.56 stripper clip boxes for bandoliers

[@NoosaHeads]

I'd like to do more cap and ball shooting but the mess and cleaning of black powder is considerable. I'd like to find a black powder alternative but I'm in Australia and Blackhorn black powder replacement isn't available here, as far as I can tell. Does anyone have a formula for Blachorn 209 (or something similarly "clean"?). The guns i use are 1) Original Winchester 1873 2) Deane Adams and Deane original revolver 3) Repro Colt Walker revolver (Colt brand but probably made by Uberti) 4) original 6 barrel pepperbox pistol. 5) original Le Forcheaux pinfire revolver. The original pistols must have low pressures, or they'll get damaged.

[@keithhagler502]

I've always loved the paper cartridges, but for me, everything about them is just too delicate in the woods, so I load from a flask. But they are great for having indoors and boxed up and ready for shooting around a more controlled environment. I may have to try that former.

[@45calibermedic]

Maybe try a good, treated leather cartridge box/bag. They were used to keep these safe or even hold the wooden box containing the cartridges.

[@ArgoPower]

Very interesting video, thank you Mark!

[@F____T]

Very interesting! Thanks to share.

[@PhoenixLibertas]

Great video! Ingenious little tool, as well! Love your work and really appreciate your offering molds for obsolete cast bullets... I'll be in touch about that separately soon enough. But right now, at the risk of belying the fact that I have not read down through all the comments (yet), I want to ask if you (or anyone else) may be aware of whether these .36 cal cartridges have any difficulty loading - i.e. falling into the cylinder chambers - of the common modern repro 1851 Navy revolvers? Specifically, mine is a Pietta, and I'm not keen to modify it (as I saw another gentleman do to a .44 cal. Colt repro in another video), so my hope is that my revolver would accept these as-is. Any verdict from those who have already tried this and made their own cartridges for an 1851 Navy??

[@markhubbs1964]

The Pietta Model 1851 actually takes cartridges better than the Uberti. Neither require alteration, but there is more room for loading on the Pietta. T

[@r669charger7]

How about making one of these using round balls? I'm sure the process is the same, but would be curious as to the depth of setting the round ball and any differences.

[@mik246810]

Nice job. Thank you.

[@sharpeguns1]

I'm an old gun smith, loved the Video. I would loved to see you actually shoot them for A GRAND FINALLY. .✔

[@stefanlowet2189]

dissolve some snokels powder flakes from ashotgun shel in some acetone. This wil make a nitrocelulose lacquer you can use as a glue , and wil make a protective layer on the paper.

[@thitsugaya1224]

Do you think it would be possible to make them a little longer and put a lubricated felt wad under the bullet? Perhaps even a slightly larger charge, say 20 to 25grs?

[@altoso99]

Hi Mark, I'm using RAW cigarette papers, they are old looking brownish and while they consumed very well with little ashes in a open burning test, I've found some unburnt remains in the chambers while cleaning. Anyway I've fired about 18 in a string without a hiccup using tapered cartridges, so I can recommend them in case someone doesn't want to nitrate or has limited access to potasium nitrate like me. I've also tried magician flash paper but that was too difficult to handle.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Thanks Nicholas. I've never heard of those kind of papers. I'll check them out.

[@ghq113]

ok , I don't see anything about Russel Smith ?? of how to get a Cliff Manley copy Former ??

[@markhubbs1964]

Smith is no longer recommended. Look below the video in the video description and you will see two other source for formers.

[@Mike-im5bo]

Would leaving the cartridge paper longer for the Richmond Lab bullet, instead of cutting it, work better? Won't this give more paper surface area to be glued to the longer Richmond bullet base?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

It might, and wont hurt a thing. However if the paper extends up over the bullet ogive it might make seating the bullet into the chamber a little more difficult.

[@JB-wj6vc]

Could you load this with 4fg since is a fairly small powder charge

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

I use 4F for .31 revolvers but I have not tested it in a .36.

[@JB-wj6vc]

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 it would be cool to see but I understand if you wouldn't test because of safety reasons

[@carls.6746]

which is the most accurate .36 and .44 eras gone bullet, have you compared them to the kaido conicals? finally where do i get the acrylic molds?

[@MEHubbs]

Carl, accuracy is very subjective and depends as much on the firearm and the load as it does the bullet. I've had excellent accuracy reports with both of my .36s and both of the .44s. Kaido molds make excellent bullets, but I don't know of any side by side shoot-offs between his and mine. Our products fill two different roles. My bullets replicate historical designs, his are modern styles adapted for use in powder revolvers. Unfortunately, there is no current maker of cartridge formers that I can recommend. The inventor is no longer making his wooden ones, and he maker of the acrylic versions was found to unreliable and sporadic in production. I'm hoping someone else steps up and starts producing them. Thanks!

[@tommygun2668]

Hi Mark! I’m using both the .36 Colt and the .44 Dow Johnson molds with great performance! As you said in this video the Colt .36 is bigger than the usual .36.... They are actually harder to seat in the gun because of this, but Great performance! So happy I got these molds! I’m now in touch with Russel to buy these too.. Thanks for the informative videos Mark! Greetings from Tommy (Sweden)

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Tommy, thanks for the kind words. I wonder why the Confederates made the bullet as large as they did?

[@scottygoodwin4276]

Thank you so much MR. Hubbs

[@cheddarchip1013]

What if you carried these formers on your website? They would probably sell well and also get the word out there on this product

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Chip, since Cliff Manely passed away, there has been no consistent and reliable source of formers. I think there are some folks who will start making in the near future. I suspect I will only be recommending makers instead of selling the products. For those small cottage industry manufacturers there is very little profit margin if they sold through me at wholesale.

[@cheddarchip1013]

Wow that’s unfortunate

[@michaelrobinson1945]

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 I ordered one a few years ago. It took so long to come that I got antsy and made my own from a piece of hardwood dowel and JB Weld. A medicine cup served as a mold for the epoxy. Then I pushed a length of tapered dowel into it (waxed, of course). When it finally arrived , I found I liked mine better.

[@MEHubbs]

@@michaelrobinson1945 Did you order one from the fellow in New Mexico? If so, that kind of service is why I ceased recommending him two years ago. Sorry you had that experience, but happy that you found your own solution.

[@michaelrobinson1945]

@@MEHubbs Yes, it was a bit over 2 years ago, and he was in New Mexico. I enjoy Your bullet mold. I was using a period Colt mold. It was real hot when casting and the bullets had less of a heel than yours. Thank you for doing these videos. I'd thought about paper cartridges for a long time, but didn't care for the way most people were doing it. By the way. I found a die punch to cut the round end caps. Much faster than scissors.

[@whspioneer89]

He should've made the forming block in the shape of the paper needed for the cartridge. Then the block could be used to trace the shape onto the paper.

[@jonskowitz]

Sounds like a good feature for them to add in v 2.0

[@sharpeguns1]

Thinking the same thing, I think I will buy 1, and improve the design and send him some. I am a Machinist, Gunsmith. I would also taper the square block. So as to easily tap the block for the grains to fall into the paper. Just Saying. Great video.

[@D5quared91]

I’d love to see a video about how you make the nitrated paper for these!

[@KathrynLiz1]

Not hard..... get some potassium nitrate and make a saturated solution and put it in a spray bottle. put the tissue sheets on a flat 'cookie tray' and give them a good spray. they'll appear wet and cling to the tray. Put the tray in your oven (pre'heated to 150 degrees C or 250 F) and they will dry in a minute or so. When dry, take them out (oven glove!) and peel the paper off the tray. Give the tray a wipe before doing the next one or the paper will tear getting it off. I use a domestic iron to take the crinkles out of the paper, then fold it so that I have 20-30 layers for my cutting rig, which is basically a 'G' clamp with a wide base to clamp the metal template on to a wooden block. Then I can use a hobby knife to cut 30+ papers all at once. The 'offcuts' go through the 1/2" paper punch to make the caps. Easy peasy.... PM me for pics or details if you want....

[@bobtyor69]

I just used CIG. Rolling papers for my rem 1858 Copley they worked fine. Found a little unburned paper but it did not effect anything.

[@jwoltremari]

Thank you

[@charlescalvert8647]

Do you only sell the bullet molds? Is there any chance in the future of selling the lead bullets themselves? After moving and downsizing after retirement I can no longer make bullets at home. I did however super size the land, so I can shoot at home! I love that Richmond bullet!! Could use a couple hundred! Anyone selling them? Great video here, like the level of detail and showing the process.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Charles, I don't sell cast bullets. Jim Thoma sells my .44 Johnston & Dows and .36 Colts. He can be reached at [e-mail]

[@charlescalvert8647]

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 Thanks, I didn't think so! I use your Johnston and Dow, from Jefferson Arsenal. I just need a couple hundred Richmond Laboratory bullets. Thanks for the info!

[@douglasmaccullagh1267]

I have a friend who is convinced that black powder firearms are too primitive to hit the side of a barn from inside the barn. I want to see his face when I tell him I will be loading an 1851 Colt with cartricges!!

[@dakotasteininger3305]

My best shot was 65 yards with 4 conicals in a 2 inch group and the other 2 were on paper opening my group to 4 to 5 inch but that was standing unsupported with one hand

[@douglasmaccullagh7865]

@@dakotasteininger3305 I hope to get that good someday, but I'll need to get clearance to take my revolvers to the rifle range to do it. I can manage a 6 inch group at 10 yards with all of the handguns we have, but I am at my best with the single action revolvers. At the moment what I really need is the right size percussion caps and more time on the range.

[@sirjhonson8218]

I wounder if you could use flash paper . Nitrated with sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate . This would give it an extra kick.

[@michaelrobinson1945]

Yup! Extra kick alright. That's a nitrocellulose paper you're referring to. That's about the same as adding a pinch of smokeless powder to the load. A major no no. Easy to burst the cylinder.

[@JarlSeamus]

I cannot find a link to buy a cartridge former from any source. Advice?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Jarl, I had to remove the one I had previous listed. Currently there are two vendors making them the first is Balazs Nemeth (he runs the CapandBall youtube channel) in Hungary. His email is: [e-mail]. The other is Timothy Shaner in the US. He can be reached at [e-mail].

[@georgeholt8929]

Jarl Seamus try CapandBall on EBay they make the cartridge formers.

[@scotthaddad563]

I like this content. Subed!

[@MyBuzzcut]

Will a round ball work with this set up.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Paul, I suspect it would although attaching the ball would have to be accomplished in a different manner than a conical. The block may also need to be altered to accommodate the ball.

[@MyBuzzcut]

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 Thanks, didn't think of that.

[@douglasmaccullagh1267]

Mark, you said the paper you are using was soaked in a nitrate solution to make it self-consuming. What do you use for the nitrate?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Douglas, the paper is soaked in a heavy potassium nitrate solution. You can get potassium nitrate from seveal sources, but I have found a stump killer sold at Lowes and Home Depot is 100% potassium nitrate. That is the easiest way to get the chemical.

[@samiam619]

Mark Hubbs I already have the salt peter from my local drugstore of all places. Do you have a formula for that? I have a Quigley down under rifle that uses paper cartridges. I nitrated some paper but just guessed on the rest. Thanks

[@Merlinemryys]

Spectracide brand "stump remover" only !--Duda Energy LLC has KNO3 one pound to pallets(1,5,10,20 ,50's>pallets)-KNO3 dissolves in 20C water 242g/L, 2439g/L @100C/212F !

[@scottygoodwin4276]

Thank you for the video Maek. I'll be trying that soon. GOD BLESS.

[@jordanlowdermilk1940]

Can you use round balls with this mould ?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

You could, but since it is set up for a conical with 17 grains, it would probably hold less powder since the ball would sit fairly deep in the paper envelope. These are designed specifically for the Eras Gone conicals, although they would probably work with other types also.

[@barrybowden5778]

Mark - can you send me measurements for the blocks and I would like to try making some of these.

[@martyblue8692]

How much are your bullet mold's for 36 and 44?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Marty, all of my molds are $63 post paid. You can learn more about them at my website: www.erasgonebullets.webstarts.com. Thanks!

[@jefflang6271]

Does the cartridge fit deep enough on the 1851 to fit under the rammer or do you have to muscle it down first to clear the frame? Does this require any frame modification as the Johnston & Dow does with the 1860 Army?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Jeff, it will depend on which brand Model 1851 you have. If it is one of the .44 Pietta 1851s, the J&D will not fit. As you know the 1851 is a .36 platform. There is only enough room for a .44 round ball. If you are talking about .36s the Pietta will load just fine with loose bullet or with cartridges. it has the beviled loading port that will allow cartidges. The Uberti Model 1851 replicates and earlier version that does not have the bevil. Loading loose bullet works just fine, but a cartridge is hard to wiggle in with out modification.

[@jefflang6271]

Thanks. I have a Uberti 1851 .36 and it looks like it would be difficult to fit a cartridge deep enough to turn the cylinder under the rammer.

[@jaywarrenclark6263]

What does one do to shoot them? You assume too much here.

[@bunkstagner298]

stuff 'em in the chamber, cap and shoot!

[@michaelrobinson1945]

@@bunkstagner298 If you know how to load a percussion revolver, then you know how to load these cartridges. A no brainer here.

[@mr.thickey1820]

My 2nd comment as a new subscriber for another great & worthwhile video! I haven't yet tried this yet for my. 36 C&B Navy Arms revolver, but I'm going to try to use nitrated cigarette papers for my cartridge loads (NO, I do NOT smoke!!!). Also, I happen to see something on the table back of you that has a cross & the word rejoice on it. By any remote chance, could that mean that you may be a "born again believer" in Jesus Christ (I hope, I hope!!)? You sure talk like one (NO nasty language!). If so, maybe I'll meet you at the "hill of the foreskins" now or later, if you know what I mean!

[@bryankisner4918]

how would make a blank load

[@jonathangomez9548]

bryan kisner starch based packing peanut in place of the lead or go to 11th ovc Channel and watch there meathod

[@craigcook1571]

You know you've committed Blasphemy by using 777 dont you?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Shhh! Don't tell anyone!

[@keithhagler502]

The horror!!

[@joelgaddis3867]

For the Richmond Laboratories cartridge you might try leaving the envelope a little long, use a 17 gr measure to charge, and cut away excess after seating the bullet.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Joel, the only issue with that idea is that the mouth of the envelope further up the tapered mandrel would have even more extra diameter compared to the bullet heal. More space for the powder, but more looseness on the bullet. It is worth a try, however.

[@joelgaddis3867]

Mark Hubbs But hopefully enough to allow the bullet to seat well against the powder even with its greater diameter above the heel, so that one can press the envelope against the heel and then cut away the excess where the bullet diameter begins to widen. In the seemingly impossibly distant future I should have all components in hand to try this out and share.

[@michaelrobinson1945]

You might laugh, but I've been ironing the coffee filters after nitrating and drying. I get a nice "dressed up for Sunday" cartridge.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

As long as your iron does not heat up to the flash point, all is good! :)

[@michaelrobinson1945]

I was worried about that, so I started with a very low temp and worked upwards until it worked. It looks like I'm reaching the melting point, though.

[@beardedrancher]

How do these work with Lee conicals?

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

If the bottom of the LEE conical is the same diameter as the Eras Gone Bullet, it would probably work. But it would not be an authentic cartridge at that point. The LEEs are good bullets, but are a modern design.

[@williammccaslin8527]

I call these "SPEED LOADERS" for blackpowder pistols, I'm all about this, what about waterproofing the paper ?

[@GunsmithRyther]

If the Richmond bullet has a longer heel, don't trim the paper as much.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

Lost me with the powder measure

[@spaceway2781]

👍

[@taylorman1949]

I think you could buy an old fishing rod and be able to make a .36 and .44 dowel from it. $30 for this is too much. but the information is good.

[@leeknivek]

is this really how they used to make them? this seems extremely time consuming and inefficient - in the time it took you to demonstrate making one cartridge, i made up 23 paper sleeves with the single mandrel rolling method - no patterns, no bottoms. after the sleeves, you simply charge, drop a ball in, and twist the end.

[@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400]

Kevin, Is this the precise way the made them? No, they had a much more efficient means of doing this on a mass production scale. The end product, however was much the same.

[@leeknivek]

ok, just checking......

[@johnberry2877]

How about a service to the community by giving us the dimensions of the forming mandrel ect. So those of us who are not financially capable can reproduce it ourselves? Stop chasing the almighty buck and help the community instead!!

[@markhubbs1964]

Simply, because those dimension are not mine to give. The products are being made by other vendors. I suggest you contact them and ask for the dimensions.

[@gingerbread1032]

Better to use nitrated hemp paper, in one solid peice, pushed into the mold to form the capsule, The original old forms were mechanical lever action devices, we're the paper, charge and lead were all laid in line then plnge compressed in and out of the device quickly,cleanly, efeicently, The Yanks always do things the hard, slow, inefecient way, that's never the best way, this is why the never ever win at anything more than sawing lumber or driving nails into dub ol boards.