Ergodic Literature: The Weirdest Book Genre

It's less complicated than it looks.
Patreon: / cloudcuckoocountry
00:00:00 Part 1: House of Leaves
00:15:15 Part 0: Ergodic Literature
00:22:22 Part -1: S.
00:35:48 Part -2: The Unfortunates
00:44:28 Part -3.1: Bats of the Republic
01:00:13 Part -3.2: Scorch Atlas
01:15:10 Part -4: Tree of Codes
01:23:48 Part -5.1: Choose Your Own Adventure
01:27:11 Part -5.2: Choice of Games
01:40:03 Part -5.3: AI Dungeon
01:45:35 Part -6: Conclusion
Art by DragonFoxGirl: / dragonfox_girl
All songs were licensed through SoundStripe.
Online book retailers I recommend:
blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/home
www.alibris.com
www.betterworldbooks.com
www.booktopia.com.au
www.abebooks.com/
www.readings.com.au
www.dymocks.com.au
www.lethepressbooks.com/
For Audiobooks:
libro.fm/
Books mentioned in the video (in chronological order):
House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski
Double or Nothing by Raymond Federman
Hopscotch by Julio Cortazar
Cybertext by Espen J Aarseth
Pale Fire by Vladimir Nabokov
Milo and the Magical Stones by Marcus Pfister
S. by Doug Dorst and JJ Abrams
The Unfortunates by BS Johnson
The Universe in Miniature in Miniature by Patrick Somerville
Scorch Atlas by Blake Butler
Boring Boring Boring Boring Boring Boring Boring by Zachary Thomas Dodson
Bats of the Republic by Zachary Thomas Dodson
Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close by Jonathan Safran Foer
Illuminae by Amie Kaufman and Jay Kristoff
Night Film by Marisha Pessi
The Supernatural Enhancements by Edgar Cantero
Tree of Codes by Jonathan Safran Foer
Journey under the Sea by RA Montgomery
The Lost Jewels of Nabooti by RA Montgomery
The Iceland Wyrm (Dragonology Pocket Adventures) by "Ernest Drake"
Choice of the Vampire by Jason Steven Hill
#books #genre #experimental

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Second-hand copies of Scorch Atlas are currently being listed for 1000s of dollars by scammers. Don’t buy these! If you live in the US or Canada, you can order new copies of Scorch Atlas at the Featherproof Books online store

[@TheSiegeAndrew]

Thank you for the heads up

[@adenowirus]

You don't happen to know any good option for purchasing the book in the EU?

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

@@adenowirus Unfortunately as of right now there doesn’t seem to be one outside of getting a friend in the US or Canada to buy you a copy and then send it to you themselves. Other than that, maybe the secondhand market will correct itself eventually after new copies start circulating again

[@konnoface]

Astonishingly enough, I went ahead and ordered Scorch Atlas directly from Featherproof after watching this- and it was delivered to me during a torrential downpour, and was damaged by the rain. I'm not even mad, it just felt right, after watching what other folks put their volumes through!

[@richiehoyt8487]

Thousands of $$$'s?!! Sounds like more proof, if it were needed, that some folks have more money than sense...

[@Erhoty]

By definition, Captain Underpants is ergodic literature on account of the flip-o-Rama sections if you consider flipping a page back and forth as non-trivial navigation of the story.

[@specificsoup]

Omfg no wonder I like books like this I grew up reading those xD

[@Myiic]

Holy shit I forgot about that, I tried to make it go as fast as I could for my friend while waiting for the bus, great memories

[@sighmon5640]

so are the Big Nate books that have encoded text around the edges! they show you the code midway through and you can go back to translate

[@Draconic74]

In a roundabout way, all those old Choose Your Adventure books also fall under the definition

[@PH0B0PH1L1A]

damn, guys will really go from loving captain underpants to loving house of leaves (i'm guys)

[@WrittenPrestidigitation]

As a former bookseller, House of leave was always one of those books that was nearly impossible to sell. But for the few who took on the task of reading this title, nearly every person CRAVED more. Only had 1 person return their copy of the book. That was because it was one of those people who would purchase a book, read it in a day then exchange it.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, this project started because a friend recommended me House of Leaves and I had the thought while reading "Why aren't there more books like this?" so I went looking for more and, wouldn't you know it, there were plenty more, it's just that they were very obscure

[@WrittenPrestidigitation]

@@CloudCuckooCountry I just wish i had the time to do what you have done when I worked for the store, also thanks for the reply.

[@eridanuskelpi3908]

Where can you exchange books? In Germany thats only allowed if they're packed in cellophane or other casing :0

[@AwesometownUSA]

@@eridanuskelpi3908 in America, if you don’t like something, it’s your RIGHT to get your money back. (that was a joke from South Park, but it’s kinda true haha)

[@WrittenPrestidigitation]

@@eridanuskelpi3908 The store I worked at is Barnes & Noble. Who have a return/exchange policy of 90 days after purchase of a book(s) as long as they are not damaged after the point of sale. Just have to bring the book in to the store, we even did this with online orders as long as they had the receipt that came in the shipping box. There are customers who would puchase a new hardcover, read it in a day or two and then exchange it for a different book. We had one person who had been doing that for about 3years. Hope this answered your question.

[@arempy5836]

I got my copy of House of Leaves from a Second Hand Bookstore and soon discovered that the previous owner had made notes in Pen on the pages. I was confused at first as to whether or not this was an actual previous owner or yet another layer of narrative. Seeing the indentation of the pen on the paper told me it was the former. In any other case I might be mad that the previous owner marked the book, but in the case of house of leaves I found it very appropriate and only enhanced the experience. It felt right that this story of a person trying to decipher a manuscript would contain the additions of another reader deciphering the work. My copy is very special to me because of that and I ended up making a note or two of my own so whoever gets it after me will have yet another layer of commentary. It's a house of leaves that keeps getting bigger on the inside.

[@nemesisurvivorleon]

That is completely amazing

[@pluspiping]

Yesss, reader interactivity between the book AND each other! The story grows :) I really hope I can find my own old copy because I also remember (as a brainwashed religious kid who was somehow reading this book) making annotations, notes, even censoring some things. And I don't remember most of it, because, again, brainwashing. REALLY hope I brought it with me in my last move update: I found it!!! It's beat up like a textbook. At some point the front cover got ripped off. I don't remember how or why. The secondary cover (the collage mess of stuff) is shoved between pages 104 and 105. Like a bookmark? But both of said pages were completely struck out by my old pencil. Apparently I also really hated Johnny Truant's diaries. And why is there a mostly-used sheet of lavender heart stickers AND the CD cover of "The Best of WAR" album shoved between pages 220 and 221? I love that album but why is it here? Were they from my mom? It's a terrible place for a bookmark and an even worse book for randomly storing things in for safekeeping. I love it when books are constructively collaborative. This reread is going to be a trip. XD update the second: Rereading a book filled with your own notes and censors that you don't remember IS INDEED A TRIP. To CSI the bookmarks, I think the bookmark at page 220 was from my last reread attempt, where I probably got panicked and never finished the reread. I guess using an album cover from a band I loved as a bookmark didn't provide enough comfort. I also didn't live in the most emotionally stable household at the time, and reading a horror book about a House that gets unstable in the presence of unstable emotions probably messed with me on some extra levels. (I'm doing much better now though) I think the bookmark at page 104 was where my mom gave up reading. Apparently she didn't follow my recommendation to skip the segments I struck, and became put off, and / or she felt like the book was "too complex" for her. Not Her Cup Of Tea, at any rate. If you the reader made it past either point in your own read-through, congrats! You got farther into this labyrinth than we did. As for those struck sections themselves, I largely agreed with my previous assessments of which parts of Johnny's Diaries to skip. I was glad to have my old notes. I felt like I could skim though them with minimal guilt. Also the way I chose to strike them was by drawing multiple long vertical slashes across the paragraphs, which turned out to be Pretty Unintentionally Thematic, given Johnny's observations and experiences. Gave me the willies to turn a page and see slash marks down the page a few times late at night. And again, I don't remember most of this book, or most of these notes, or finishing it, but I had made relevant annotations up until the very end. So. I must have finished it and made those notes. And then got spooked and noped out of my next reread. That was another oddly thematic experience as Johnny's Diaries claim he didn't remember making many notes on the manuscript or his copy of it, by that point in the story. All in all 10/10 will read again and thank you to me from the past for scribbling in your book and adding to the fun. TL;DR annotations from an attentive reader enhances the ergodic literary experience. I hope my story can add to the discussion on scribbling in books. Definitely recommend making your own notes for yourself to maybe forget about and to come back & read later on funky books like this one. 👍

[@lazy_bt]

the real house of leaves was the annotations we wrote on the book along the way

[@morgantrias3103]

damn you got one extra layer of the book we only get the editor, Jonny, Zampanò and Navidson, you got an extra guy.

[@FLUFFERKINZ]

My copy was bought secondhand. I haven’t read it yet but I also own a digital copy for ease of reading at work. I might forego reading the digital one in the hopes the last owner left me notes.

[@AshEnbyy]

My mom's a writer and she's been a bit stuck with her latest novel so I told her about these funky books and suddenly there was a glow to her eyes and she started looking at nothing and went "I really wanna make one of those... You just gave me such a good idea". So yeah!! Super glad I found this video and can't wait to see what she comes up with.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

That's wonderful to hear! Best of luck to your mother with her latest novel

[@onionsieglinde8718]

This is awesome, man! Great luck to your mother, please give us an update when possible!!!

[@ryanb4940]

I’d love to know if she followed that idea. I absolutely love how bizarre the book changes and twists itself in to give the reader the idea of what’s happening and confusing them. It’s so damn good.

[@mr.kittysavestheworld695]

If your mother finishes that book, let us know, I want to read that now.

[@IzzyMarrie]

That's really cool! Tell your mother the best of luck to her, and I hope she writes something she's really proud of!

[@ShardtheWolf]

House of leaves is my favorite book ever. It's actually the only book I ever annotated my own notes, if only because I thought it was funny that at some time in the future, someone could buy the book from me second hand, and have even 1 more layer of footnotes

[@chapatrap7564]

My gf used this book for an essay and she wrote her own footnotes so i had to read another layer of someone using it

[@sophdog2564]

Imagine they don't realize it's your footnotes and they just go about their lives thinking your commentary is part of the story

[@Lololeelee]

Love this.

[@humanharddrive1]

this is so good

[@DecayingReverie]

Imagine if everyone annotated it and then sold it so it was just this passed on book that got crazier and crazier with annotations. I feel like that is thematic with the book.

[@jasonsilzer8046]

There’s a one act play called 52 Pick Up, which consists of 52 scenes, performed in a random order. In performance, each scene title is written on a playing card and at curtain, the deck is thrown in the air. After each scene, one of the actors picks up another card, reads the title, and the scene is performed. It works well.

[@koryfail]

Sorta like one of my favorites, 70 Scenes of Halloween.

[@niles6159]

And with that, there are now more plays written than there are atoms that comprise the earth.

[@ecrivonlunyx]

In Chicago, we have a weekly show called the infinite wrench where the audience votes for which number scene with no context unless you've been before and the most loved scenes survive on the list

[@maccheese7548]

i read a lot of house of leaves while at my job (there was nothing to do quite often) so i would like to give you a fun little image. i was decoding one of the letters (the one where she was using the first letter of every word) and scribbling in the margins. apparently i looked a little Strange because my manager came over and was like ...are you good? and i was like YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND I HAVE TO DECODE THESE LETTERS BECAUSE THIS BOOK IS A LABYRINTH AND then he left me alone

[@Lololeelee]

Great visual.

[@JustCallMeEmily]

If he knew what the book was, he would understand.

[@pluspiping]

lmao that would be a fun one for people to come over and ask "what the f are you writing"

[@dinosaysrawr]

It's essentially a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book for adults, but I thought "I Am Not a Wolf" was delightful, and made me laugh out loud in several spots.

[@kirakiraclover7050]

Added to my reading list. Thanks!

[@JustCallMeEmily]

I thought that too! I own a choose your own adventure romance book and I still haven't gotten through all of the different choices I could make lol My sister has my copy.

[@BooksAndShitButNotLiterally]

@@JustCallMeEmily I once had a nightmarish experience as a teenager with a choose your own adventure book, where I got lost in a labyrinth inside a mountain and couldn't find my way out. I even started drawing maps to help myself. But I was stuck. I started to feel like I was going insane, trapped inside a novel. So soon enough, I gave up... haven't done a choose your own adventure book since.

[@Splozy]

​@@BooksAndShitButNotLiterallyIan Livingstone firestop mountain? The fighting fantasy books are very underrated!

[@CrownePrince]

The first minute convinced me to put a hold on House of Leaves from the library. I'll come back after I've read it.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

I'm going for the any% recommendation-to-viewer-purchase speedrun

[@NemesisTWarlock]

@@CloudCuckooCountry Current record holder for that is Niick Nocturne, I believe. You're definitely on the leaderboard though! :)

[@WhoWantsCake0]

@@NemesisTWarlock I believe May Lietz's video on House of Leaves may be another contender

[@ellenmarch3095]

Listen to Poe's album Haunted. She's the author's sister and wrote that album around his book. He read some into one of her songs, which was way better than it might sound. Literally might be my favorite album of all time, completely on its own; if not, it's definitely top 5. They're both brilliant.

[@100dead]

It's an excellent book. Though potentially entirely my fault, reading this book has taken me more than a year to get halfway in. I like to challenge people in my school who feel curious about it to flip it to any page that's more than a quarter in. Because they've never seen a book presented that way. Ever.

[@jacksondetterbeck4983]

This reminds me of the game "Analogue: A Hate Story", where you read logs on a ruined generation space ship (in a somewhat arbitrary order) presented to you by one of two AIs that offer their own opinions and perspectives on what are contained within the logs.

[@jukmifggugghposer]

That game was so neat!

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

It took me so long to 100 % it, as far as visual novels go, anyway.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

@@VarionusNW 100 % it. It took me a while to find the final log for the final achievement. And 12 hours is a long time for a visual novel. I've never 100 % completed one in less than 3 hours other than Analogue.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

@@VarionusNW That's definitely not my experience. And by 100 % l mean getting all the achievements, usually on Steam.

[@TheYashakami]

That's a great game

[@genericuser3469]

I love how your character has gotten more and more fabulous as time progresses

[@someoneunknown7655]

Yasification

[@pravkdey]

Sexy eagle

[@Torgan454]

gay

[@Remedy462]

Foxulous!

[@xanaduidk38]

I was making supper, just minding my own business and I almost burnt the onions because you said "choice of games" and my soul fucking ascended while I was at the stove

[@TheVpog]

is this a good thing or?

[@THEFRISKIESTDINGO]

It’s the only book that made me question if, perhaps, I could be stupid to NOT tape a yardstick to the wall… and a second one under it to make sure the first one didn’t change without me noticing.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

@@CloudCuckooCountry omg you're still alive!?

[@-Reagan]

@@THEFRISKIESTDINGO this comment also deserves to be pinned ❤😅

[@Riva1000]

What were you cooking ?

[@DuckGoesQuack]

House of Leaves was an absolute blast to read, not because the story is a masterpeice (it fluctuates between great - the horror, maze parts, and fine - Mostly the longs segments of Johnny) but because I got the sense that the writer had so much fun coming up with all the different ways that he could play with formating. It’s great inspiration and I keep taking it from my shelf when I feel stuck and just need some inspiration for my own writing. Another novel that could be considered Ergodic is "Cains Jawbone". A murder mystery that would released as 100 single pages in a box. Each page was some text and an area for notes so it’s up to you to out the pages back in order and figure out the murder (There was/is still a cash price for people who gives the correct answer)

[@abhiroopdas3232]

im sorry if this comes off as rude but if the 'long segments of johnny' were the least interesting aspects of the book for you, then you have been missing out on what makes House of Leaves a brilliant story. I suggest reading/studying the Whalestoe letters and then re-reading HoL.

[@kettle4796]

@@abhiroopdas3232 That's what I'm about to do actually. I read HoL and got -so- annoyed at the Johnny parts throughout the whole book; they seemed unnecessary and really tainted what I thought was the focus of the whole story. Then I read the Whalestoe letters at the very end and it reframed the entire book for me. Now I'm just waiting to get up the motivation to tackle the book again so I can reread it in this new mindset and hopefully enjoy it more!

[@RychuAlolan]

​@@abhiroopdas3232 that does come off as rude

[@lorkhanSonOfSithis]

@@abhiroopdas3232 While Jonny's notes sometimes have some great horror elements and are somewhat important to the story, most of the time they are just horny hot garbage that does nothing for the story but lower its quality. Most of his notes just are I HAVE SEX!!!! for a couple of pages and then a single good and scary paragraph in the very end.

[@specificsoup]

I just went to Barnes and Noble to look for House of Leaves (which I found in the horror section!), but initially I was looking in Fiction… by complete accident, I came across a book called Crossings by Alex Landragin. I picked it up as I thought, that title seems topical, and realized I was right. It says on the back, “Designed to be read either as a first to last page narrative or by following an alternative chapter sequence that offers a very different reading experience.” No way… and then as I found myself in the actual beginning of the Fiction section looking for the D’s I found Hopscotch by Julio Cortazar! I took that as fate and went home with 3 books 😅

[@kimc4832]

I remember wandering around a bleak Barnes and Noble twenty years ago as a teen asking for “more weird books like House of Leaves” and getting nothing. Thanks for finally answering my question. I appreciate it.

[@MonoChromium]

I'll be honest, when I heard you say that the characters in House of Leaves broke a hole in a wall, and that there was now a "hole" in the pages, I was imagining a different end to that scenario. I was thinking there'd be pages and pages of just, an empty space, with words missing from sentences because they fell into the "hole". The sentences would (hopefully) still be comprehensible, but definitely missing a few pieces. Then, when they reach the other side of the hole in the story, they'd see something unfathomable, something that would take a huge explanation for the readers to truly comprehend. Too bad for the readers, though, because that explanation is buried under all the words that fell through the "hole". So the page where the hole ends is just a mess of alphabet soup, kerned to hell and back to look like a bunch of letters just fell on top of each other. And then they'd just move on to the next chapter, never telling the readers what they saw, but visibly shaking the characters. ...Writing this all out makes it feel a little tongue-in-cheek though, lol.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

You could totally write a book with that idea imo

[@Melody_Raventress]

Thanks for an idea to steal!

[@WandererEris]

"We ran a contest. Whoever destroyed their book the best got a replacement copy. Everyone else was out of luck." Have you ever just... fallen in love with someone from one thing they say? Not in a romantic or sexual way, but in such a way that you know you want this person to have the best possible life and you hope they feel your love? My word. Also, the weirdly huge margins of S. were the very first thing I noticed when you showed the insides. That would drive me as insane as your reading of the The Unfortunates made me feel.

[@nemesisurvivorleon]

Kindred Spirit Detector Alarm

[@boomfanfic-a-latta8996]

I'd also like to mention The Illuminae Files. While not as complex as a lot of these, the books in this series are formatted entirely as collections of in-universe documents, files, websites, chatrooms, video transcripts, etc. It's one of the coolest takes on a book I've ever seen. Edit: WAIT NEVERMIND YOU DID MENTION ILLUMINAE AT ONE POINT--my reccomendation still stands.

[@_Peachyb2_]

Illuminae Files was the the first series I ever read in this style and now after finishing it, am craving more challenging books like it. Just bought house of leaves and I'm so excited to start reading lol

[@nightshadetq2453]

i think reading these books years ago planted the seed in my brain that led me to house of leaves later on, i don't remember them very well by now but they definitely made me love these unconventional style of books

[@looking4agoodtime89]

“I love reading this, its horrible, don’t read it.” Is the perfect way to describe Homestuck.

[@goldend791]

I feel like homestuck doesn't have nearly as much potency for genuine mental harm as the described book has, homestuck just kinda gets boring from time to time to set up some genuinely epic domino show, or, more frequently to make fun of itself/it's fans/the internet culture/combination of any of the prior choices. Now this does give me a thought, homestuck is sparingly ergodic in nature in some places, but I didn't even notice till the "main event" (referred to as such as to avoid spoilers).

[@lazy_bt]

ive always called homestuck "the hell you love to be in" and i also always tell friends not to read it. incredible experience!, would not recommend.

[@lazy_bt]

​@@goldend791 genuinely cant tell what u mean by "main event" (cascade?) but now that you mention it, there are a few pages (such as the ones that introduce wayward vagabond and the other chesspeople) where u can click on links to extra pages with images but no dialogue, but ure obviously not required to do so. in fact i didnt notice they were links the first time around, which made me backtrack to check them out. since homestuck is inspired in great part by old cyoa text games it does have a couple sections u can check out in arbitrary order, but it _is_ disappointing that later on ure literally railroaded into a specific order during a part made to look cyoa. i wonder if all that makes it count as ergodic or its "not enough", or maybe just "not relevant enough" to count.

[@goldend791]

@@lazy_bt I was referring to the event that takes place near the end and involves passwords

[@iantaakalla8180]

That is particularly funny that because of one event you could just skip to the end of Homestuck if you wanted by knowing the password of an infamous event

[@actualturtle2421]

To this day, HoL is the most terrifying book I've ever read. I've struggled with my mental health for a long time and no piece of media I've ever experienced has really nailed down what it feels like to be ACTIVELY GOING INSANE like House of Leaves does. I had to put it down for a little while because it had started dragging me down the rabbit hole a little bit. I have a friend who read it at the same time I did and we were both absolutely traumatized by it and we've both read it probably half a dozen times since then. It's a masterpiece of horror fiction.

[@AmbroseReed]

I completely agree. I was thoroughly unsettled by Truant's intro, because his paranoia and anxiety were so palpable and seemed to imbue the text with some kind of horrible power. There was also a dead bug in my copy right after the point when he was talking about seeing hands at the corner of his vision which freaked me out lol. Took me a while to be brave enough to keep reading it.

[@prenzea]

yeah! I started reading it over 2020 quarantine and had to take a veeeery long (multi-year) break to protect my mental health lol.

[@duffman18]

Yep, I have paranoid schizophrenia, and so much of the book reminds me of the terror of going through an episode of psychosis, where you feel like you're the only sane one and that it's the rest of the world that's gone insane. Especially the stuff with Johnny Truant's mother, where halfway through the book you're told to go to the end of the book in the appendices to read all the letters his mother wrote to him. And she starts going crazy, at this mental hospital, and creates this big conspiracy in her mind where she thinks she's sane and that all the doctors are going against her and keeping her there illegally and so on. It's so incredibly vivid, and incredibly like what it feels like to have psychosis, believe me. Eventually she starts writing in code and so you have to get a pen and some paper and, if I recall correctly, write down all the first letters of every word she writes to find the actual message she's trying to get to her son. I've done things like that before. Eventually she gets put on a better medication and the real her comes back, instead of the psychotic her, and she basically apologises for the craziness and understands that the doctors were actually trying to help her, not keep her locked up for nefarious reasons. It's genuinely a real thing that happens, you get put on a different medication that works much better, or a higher dose of your existing medication, and you come out of the psychosis, and even though it was only say 2 weeks ago you were deep in the hole of psychosis, you wonder how on earth you actually believed all that stuff about conspiracies of friends and family conspiring against you behind your back. It's just weird. And embarrassing. And you feel ashamed for thinking those things about people you care about who care about you too. But yeah that's probably my favourite part of the book. Even though it's so damn real and vivid that it's like reading about myself. I've heard from some people who read the book that they didn't even know that part was there and they never read it, because it's in the appendices. Or they only read all of it at the end, instead of reading it in the middle of the book when you're supposed to. It's crazy to me how arguably the best part of the book is something that a lot of people apparently completely missed by accident. So I always bring it up in discussions about House of Leaves, because people are doing themselves a disservice if they don't read it.

[@rwbyab7423]

This seems to cross over a lot with ARGs and interactive storytelling made possible through online accessibility. I had worked on a project a few years ago called "Can You Hear the Church Bells Ringing?" that was a blog with ARG elements and supplementary KZbin videos. It was very rough around the edges, not sure if it would interest you, but this video definitely opened my eyes to different methods of abstract storytelling, and I would love to pursue something like this with a bit more of a literary focus one day!

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thanks for sharing. I briefly considered stepping into ARGs for this video, but what stopped me was that I think most of them are closer to games than they are to literature (unlike interactive fiction, which despite being often classified as games I believe to be closer to literature) and also that I think Night Mind has more thoroughly covered the genre for people interested in them

[@WhoWantsCake0]

As someone who owns a copy of House of Leaves but has yet to begin reading it, I appreciated the lack of (or what seemed to me to be the lack of) major spoilers. I'm not even sure that this type of writing can be "spoiled" per se, but I came out the other side feeling like I got an enticing highlight reel of some interesting formatting choices the author used rather than a summary of the full plot or a basic book review. As usual, you provided meaningful insight into what makes this type of writing unique and flexible. I personally would enjoy further videos on ergodic writings and similar styles, although I more than understand if it wasn't in such a long-form video. Perhaps a series/playlist of shorter videos highlighting books of this nature?

[@gabrielbruce1977]

As someone who owns, and finished, his copy of House of Leaves- you're in for a ride and depending on how you approach it you might leave it feeling uncomfortable or feeling like you got catharsis. Have fun!

[@MrfnordTim]

There are definitely things that can be spoiled in HoL, but I'm not sure how major any of them are. It depends in part on what you consider to be the main story(ies) of the book. Depending on your perspective, the two biggest whammies in the book could be considered part of framing devices.

[@TheDilden]

Will's brother is eaten by the house

[@rosaryrose2505]

There is a book similar to S. that came out not too long ago. It's called The Pallbearers Club by Paul G. Tremblay. It's about a guy writing a bio about himself in high school running a pallbearers club. But throughout the book, there are side notes left behind by one of the members of the club. Throwing her thoughts and "corrections" to the story. It's different from the rest of Paul's work. Not just by the formatting, but also because it's a slice-of-life story with gothic elements, rather than the horror/thrillers tales he's known for. So the ratings are mixed. But I consider it a good read.

[@matthewgallaway3675]

Making a note of that

[@nanardeurlambda]

1:31:00 scratch the "in theory" part of it. the lone wolf series of cyoa books did that for each episode, and you apparently can carry your character from one episode to the next, evolving them along with the aventures.

[@MrfnordTim]

"Game books" of that sort were a fairly big deal in nerd circles in the late 80s and early 90s. A lot of them, including the big dog, Games Workshop's Fighting Fantasy series (yes, the Warhammer people), were from the UK for some reason.

[@finngswan3732]

One way to avoid the margin vs main text thing is to make it a textbook version of the story. Most lit and art textbooks have huge margins to give you lots of room to write out notes.

[@victorvale1015]

Now I want to make a biology/anatomy textbook version of this with made up creatures and diseases

[@dilloncooper600]

​@@victorvale1015 That's a great idea. I'd buy two copies

[@toastom]

@@victorvale1015 I used to have some Book of Monsterology (the title was something like that) which detailed different mythological creatures and allowed you to go out and collect "samples" in real life of these creatures and store in the book. Things like griffins' feathers or a Sphinx tooth or something.

[@whoathere7376]

@@victorvale1015 i remember reading something like that as a kid. it was called something like “zombie’s guide to the human body”, with “zombie’s” scrawled on the cover. it was real anatomy info with annotation by a zombie. pretty fun

[@adenowirus]

@@victorvale1015 As far as I know "The Resurrectionist: The Lost Work of Dr. Spencer Black" is an anatomy atlas of fictional creatures.

[@CrowSpaceboy]

Not bothering to track down an Ayn Rand play and instead presenting a children's book with the exact same feature of ergodic literature is a wickedly clever slight of the former. I grinned like The Grinch.

[@TheoRae8289]

Oh god no wonder people who read her are such insufferable asshats.

[@LevityRhodes]

For some reason I knew "But what do you mean by literature" was coming, but even when you said it I laughed out loud. Pedantic dissections of definitions are as essential to the human experience as death

[@JustCallMeEmily]

English class has messed with all of us ;w; "The door is red', now what do you think the author meant by this?"

[@alpakami6261]

Fun fact: My college professor actually got himself a copy of Compositon No. 1 but but when it arrived to the library, the library lady saw that the pages weren't bound together, so she sew them together lol

[@Ramonatho]

She is an academic who has no time for your "non-linear recountings" and "artistic ordering".

[@jubelbrosseau7966]

Robert Shearman’s “We All Hear Stories in the Dark” is a fantastic addition to this mode: it is a collection of 101 stories, all forming a meta-narrative across three volumes (usually purchased together), each story giving you a choice “Choose Your Own Adventure” style of which story to read next, and its page number. There is only one path through all 101 stories (plus a secret unnumbered story), and the author says that whatever path you take is a complete reading as intended: if your dead-end happens on your 32nd story, that’s it. You’ve read his book.

[@wakingcharade]

One thing that's left out of the House of Leaves thing is that for a long time after the book first came out, there was an online forum, which the author would sometimes pop up on, and which generated its own conspiracies on the forum itself with posts that had crack theories or dead ends or claims to be new information popping up and causing speculation all the time. In some ways, this now closed forum was part of the story larger universe of the book as well. Visual Novels so often get left out of conversations on this which is weird because they've been around for a long time and a crapton of them are translated. They often get classed as 'video games' rather than literature even though often the only 'game' component to them is the branching choice - and given the amount of effort some of these books take, a quick time event doesn't seem out of pace with the genre. Visual novels range from almost entirely text and music with some sprites to having a lot more cutscenes, but branching story paths and interaction are kind of the hallmarks of the genre? Another mostly dead genre of hypertext literature that a few people got really excited for for a little bit was wiki literature. The only example I know of that got ANYWHERE at all is the SCP wiki, a massive collaborative nonlinear interconnected series of stories with recurring characters that for a time was being constantly expanded and updated. It still is, but less so. There were some hopes that other similar projects, either of the same collaborative nature, or as a form of story telling for a singular author might take off, but I am unaware of any. Which is kind of a shame, because it has a lot of potential as SCP shows - there are some entries whose real stories are hidden within the commentary section, though this, I think, is a little bit discouraged to do because its a live wiki and people actually need to discuss it. But given how often 'work that is dancing around an in universe fictional work of literature or historical event' is, a wiki based story has huge potential. Of course, now that fandom bought wikia, and ruined it, that's gonna be harder to launch. The potential of hypertext literature has largely failed to materialize, which is a shame. Can I blame a very specific webcomic series that may or may not count in any of these categories for that collapse? Probably not entirely fairly, but part of me still wants to, if only out of spite. Twitter fiction was another one, some which was intended to be viewed immediately as such, and others which started out pretending to be real threads. Twitter allows branching threads which can be really annoying for actual discussion but had potential that didn't go very far. People did similar things on other social media platforms. These sometimes straddle the line into ARG instead, which.... a very separate thing, but has some fun storytelling tools if more people used them as story telling rather than marketing. But most are solidly outside of what you'd call literature. Not sure WHAT this house has people in it ends up being, but its probably more 'video' than 'book'

[@TitenSxull]

I actually got chills from the description of the seabed story from Scorch Atlas. The idea of the oppressive nightmarish quality, like some weird mix of grim fairytale and postapocalypse seems interesting. I also think it's important to distinguish between something that presents itself as grounded or real ending with 'it was all a dream' and something that is, by its very nature, nightmarish and surreal. Art that is surreal and strange without pretending to be anything else is fine. What I tend to hate is stories that seem to want to be considered at face value that end up cheating us out of a satisfying conclusion. If what I'm seeking out is the literary equivalent of a Beksinski painting I'm not going to get upset by nightmarish imagery or elements that don't make exact narrative sense.

[@horrorspirit]

> the literary equivalent of a Beksinski painting this is such a description

[@adenowirus]

From the description in the video Seabed, and probably the rest of The Scorch Atlas, seems very similar to a subset of the "weird fiction" genre which, in the last few years, became reasonably popular in Poland. Wojciech Gunia is probably the most prominent writer of that movement, but there's also David Kain, Anna Maria Wybraniec and (my personal favorite) Paweł Mateja, just to name the few I'm more familiar with. I highly recommend checking them out, should they be ever published published in English. As for the English language writers, the only good example I've read so far is "Alectryomancer and Other Weird Tales" by Christopher Slatsky, but I'm also planning on reading the works of Thomas Ligotti, who gets a lot of praise and is often ciced as a major inspiration by Gunia.

[@matthewbartlett8080]

I think a book that would work well with the shuffle chapter format would be a mystery with each chapter being a vignette allowing the reader to peace the mystery together from different clues depending on the order of the chapters.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

That's a really great idea, actually

[@EmperorTigerstar]

Having finally finished the video, this is definitely your best one yet. Glad to see you trying new stuff in your videos. The AI Dungeon was a beautiful laugh.

[@benrex7775]

I once seen a video on the AI dungeon where it had a slightly better run. There it looked like a dream. All actions make sense if you only look at the surrounding few sentences. But if you go a bit further it stops making sense. This also applies here, but in the other video it wasn't such a terribly bad story.

[@Hawksmoor42]

Part of me wants more details on how George the Redhanded went from criminal caught in the act and arrested, to assumed missing person with no criminal record, to rescued prisoner with information on the actual missing person.

[@Juliana-Bub]

I completely agree with you about the sex scenes in those books being the worst thing about them. The Johnny Truant sex scenes were easily the least believable events in the whole book. The scenes in The Unfortunates just felt very 1960s-gratuitous-"it's not misogynistic because it's art" if that makes sense. For anyone who enjoys Ship of Theseus (the Straka narrative part of S.) look into The Death Ship by Traven. That's what Dorst based based it on. It's not ergodic, but it's fun to see where S. found inspiration. (Did anyone else find the contents of the envelope in Bats of the Republic to be disappointing?)

[@freekbertens4729]

I did love the contrast between traunts... not really sex scenes, more just horny posts and the serious story of someone's house trying to kill them

[@superskh]

I can proudly say I've experienced Ergotic Literature. It's a little known work by the author R.L. Stein, a choose your own adventure Goosebumps novel. 😌 I feel so classy. (In all seriousness this video was fascinating. I'd only dipped my toe in with House of Leaves by watching Night Mind's video about it and the tied in ARG. It's so cool to know there are more books of it's ilk.)

[@pietrayday9915]

I would bet most people from Gen-X onward first encountered this sort of thing in elementary school in the '80s in the form of a combination of Choose-Your-Own-Adventure literature like you did, with interactive literature text games, early computer RPGs, pen-and-paper RPGs, ASCII art, pop-up art books, word-picture poetry by the likes of e.e. cummings in literature textbooks, and a revival of interest at the time (and ever since) in gothic literature from the likes of H.P. Lovecraft, Brahm Stoker, Edgar Allan Poe, and Stephen King (which, in telling stories in a non-linear fashion using collections of letters, diary entries, newspaper clippings, confessions written by raving madmen, etc. which all amount to puzzle-pieces that tell a bigger story when added together, paved the way for the more extreme examples of this sort of storytelling found in 'House of Leaves' and its like....

[@FunctionallyLiteratePerson]

I was actually looking for a mention of the Goosebums choose your own adventure books. I remember going through so many while I was in elementary school.

[@turtleanton6539]

I to read xhoose ypur own adventure

[@Voltanaut]

I've written a book I've tried to publish for 7 years that is quite ergodic. Thanks for giving me a name for my "genre". My book is about a mentally ill teenager, and though it's written linearly, it's also written visually and metaphorically to represent his psyche, and it feels a lot like these books. I've kept up this style for some of my others books, and I hope to get in contact with Featherproof. I hope they open their submission period soon.

[@PassionateAboutPonies]

I am absolutely shocked that I was able to sit through this entire video and stay engaged. I cannot remember the last time I sat through this type of long-form content. This video was like stretching after sitting down for a long time, but for my brain. I also laughed out loud at several points, and I almost NEVER laugh out loud anymore. "I love this book; it's horrible; don't buy it" ticked me pink with glee. Your little PNGTuber/VTuber guy is so visually interesting to look at. It was very handy to be able to stare at while also processing what you were saying. I first subscribed to you in my teenage years when I believe you did some MLP content (I'm 24 now.) I haven't watched you in a long time, but I saw this video pop up in my subscription box, and clicked on it thinking I'd watch for maybe 5 minutes then click away. I was shocked at how hooked you had me in minutes. This video had just the right amount of information presented at just the right speed with enough visual interest to keep my ADHD-diagnosed-since-kindergarten brain hooked. I don't know how you've managed this, but I want to genuinely thank you for providing an experience that I thought lost to me forever. I actually thought about going to the library and taking out a dystopia novel I haven't read before. I haven't read anything substantial besides fanfiction and the YA novels I still own in a long time. I used to be a voracious reader, so much so that more than once I had a book confiscated by a teacher because I was reading it under my desk during class! I can't wait to see what you make next! (Actually, I might go and check what you've uploaded previously to see what I've missed.)

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad you liked my video

[@privatenorby]

There was a series of books from my childhood that i think fit very nicely into this conversation. The books in question were a series presented as field exploration journals for various subjects, with each book ending in the suffix -ology, e.g. dragonology, egyptology, etc. They had various inserts like letters, feathers and such, or artifacts (think like fake gold coins and the like) which added significantly to the mystery and sense of discovery.

[@horrorspirit]

I have dragonology, one of my favorite childhood books of all time

[@AwesometownUSA]

I read this back when it came out and it really blew me away. I read it over the course of a week, only at night and only when alone. towards the end there is a page that’s just musical notation - I crept through my darkened apartment to a glockenspiel I had in my music room and hammered out the creepy little melody; it was spine-tingling D: def recommend. five steven stars ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@melissamoore2002]

I would love to read House of Leaves again for the first time. Found it 20 years after it was published and it has been one of the books I think of all the time. It is a total work of art in my opinion.

[@spoonsboy]

This video is incredible! I am a huge fan of ergodic literature, it's my favorite kind of writing and I'm working on collecting any I can get my hands on. Thank you for giving me more books to add to my list, it's hard to find new recommendations all on my own. If anyone here is interested in more works of ergodic literature I would be happy to give some recommendations based on what you like to read. Even though these types of novels can be a bit difficult to track down, there will always be more out there to find out about!

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Please do give some recommendations! I'm game for anything

[@Kye9842]

If you know any fantasy or political fiction ones, please do! Otherwise wouldn't mind any in general

[@lindseytheartist]

Yes please! I enjoyed House of Leaves and I also like books that are aware they are books

[@specificsoup]

I’ll read legit anything in this format, would love to hear your suggestions I was introduced to it with Tree of Codes which is the most I ever spent on a book (it was like $40 something new?? Idk I normally always buy used books) I just love that author)

[@purpleknight665]

do you have any horror ergodic novel recommendations?

[@JauntyScarecrow]

The works of Milorad Pavić deserve a shout-out. Their novels are really interesting literary puzzles, sometimes literally as with "Landscape Painted With Tea". The Dictionary of the Khazars is probably the most interesting book I ever had to read for a class.

[@beauwilliamson3628]

His "Last Love in Constantinople" suggests reading the 21 chapters in the order of a shuffled major arcana Tarot deck.

[@horrorspirit]

I just looked him up, his work seems super interesting

[@conedust]

The Dictionary of the Khazars and Landscape Painted with Tea (the only Pavic novels I've read) were the first books that came to mind when I tried to think of other examples of ergodic lit. Loved both, especially the former. Spent way too much time trying to figure out the difference between the male and female versions tho.

[@Keatosis_Quohotos]

Damnit. I got so hyped to watch this video and now I gotta go and read a whole-ass book first because I don't want it spoiled

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

This video covers like 7 books. Feel free to skip ahead to the next parts

[@Youtube.Commen-tater]

@@CloudCuckooCountry An ergodic video about ergodic literature. How fitting!

[@raycearcher5794]

Some notes about Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style books: there were Nintendo licensed knockoffs that included things like inventories and puzzle pages, and Neil Patrick Harris wrote his autobiography as a branching narrative in which the reader is the character of Harris himself. There's also a small series of adult print branching novels called "Choose Your Own Mind-F*** Fest" which lean heavily into comedy surrealism and can be ordered online. There were some attempts to blur the line between branching novels and tabletop gaming, such as D&D licensed books that ask you to keep track of earned levels and gate off certain decisions if you are too inexperienced, and the Combat Heroes books, where two players each use a related but unique book with embedded code tables that actually allow players to hunt one another down in a mysterious maze.

[@adenowirus]

There are also "Alone Against the Flames/Dark/Frost/Tide", four solo scenarios for the Call of Cthulhu RPG where Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style paragraphs substitute the GM, but the rules stay the same. Another hybrid CYOA-like book is Storm Weavers, in which combat encounters are played out using the included game boards and cardboard miniatures.

[@KatieAndCatburger]

OH MAN SO GLAD to have learned the word ergodic!! Finally a way to describe non-linear pieces with your own agency as a key feature! I wanted to suggest Immortality as maybe one of the MOST ergodic games I've ever played, it is (basically) impossible to experience the story linearly, and player input decides where you go next. It's almost designed to turn you into a crazy wall pointing obsessive. on choose your own adventure books for adults-- I actually remember reading one when I was 18. In it you were born, and you made life choices like go to college/don't and you basically lived a life through the pages, it was a cool idea and really resonant with me, an 18 year old about to graduate and start my adult life, but in hindsight I don't think it was actually all that deep thinking back on it. Then again I can't even remember the name, so who knows maybe it was better than Proust. It would have come out in like 06-08 I am betting?

[@Alexeon]

Scorched Atlas sounds like it is set in a world where the great old ones of Lovecraft are waking up and the laws of physics are getting weird.

[@josephpotter5766]

Yeah, this, causality is broken and reality is just going away a little at a time, taking the protagonists with it.

[@nessbailey7931]

The Secret Series by Pseudonymous Bosch is a children’s novel series with footnotes and appendices galore. The author was inspired by A Series of Unfortunate Events and thus the author is speaking to you the reader. It’s 5 novels and I read them all around age 10/11. I chose to read the footnotes and see the appendix where it came up in the story, but you could choose to read the whole story first and then go back and read the footnotes and appendices.

[@_citarra_]

I have had House of Leaves since it was first published, sitting on my bookshelf and mocking my fear that it would be too difficult for me to understand. In the last 6 years it's been sitting on my nightstand and collecting new layers of dust. Thanks to you I am not only excited about reading it again, but about the whole concept of ergodic books. Thank you!

[@SurprisinglyDeep]

How'd the read go?

[@larhyperhair]

I hate to say it, but I do believe.... Homestuck probably falls into this category. Non-linear story ✓ You can jump in anywhere ✓ The formatting is that of a webcomic/video game despite ostensibly just being a visual novel ✓ Incredibly meta and the universe bends around the strange format ✓

[@iammothra]

The alternate endings, too

[@Axolotls677]

I regret to say that I immediately thought of Homestuck when hearing about this genre

[@halfpintrr]

Ah yes the book about a book about a movie about a house that is a labyrinth. This book was funny but god it was terrifying. I slept with the lights on as an adult after the red chapter, and the footnote you showed, where there was nothing in the room by showing what was not in the room in a list of words. I have some of Danielweski’s other works but nothing hit me like this one. I have S. but I think I need to really get into it.

[@DecayingReverie]

I just bought House of Leaves after it being recommended so many times by the liminal space community and a map for the video game DOOM called My House came out that was inspired by the book. I'm a writer, and while I'm not the kind of person who would write like this, I like looking for unique experiences in literature.

[@GingerWithEnvy]

There's a book my older sister Emma had when we were younger called Cathy's Book, and our copy had in bold letters on the front "PUT THIS BOOK DOWN IF YOUR NAME IS NOT EMMA", so naturally I never got to read it. What I do remember is that the book came with an assortment of other documents, like birth certificates or train tickets, and I don't remember if they were inserted in the page or simply accompanying it but that's the only other book I know of with some inserts. I also never got to read it, so I have no idea how ergodic the book is and how it utilities the additional materials.

[@insignificantramblings]

Two books that immediately came to mind in this format that weren't mentioned here were: 1) Cain's Jawbone by Edward Powys Mathers, in a similar vein to The Unfortunates, with the concept of re-structuring the book's contents (although Cain's Jawbone does have one intended order and it's presented as a mystery for the reader to solve), and the somewhat intentionally vague writing style. Also it having the whole competition element, similar to the ARG element for books like House of Leaves. 2) Top 10 Games You Can Play In Your Head, By Yourself by D. F. Lovett, J. Theophrastus Bartholomew, and Sam Gorski. This one in particular I find incredibly fascinating because it's most similar to the books described in Part 5, while not sharing much, if any of their structure. The book's cover is absolutely designed to evoke the covers of Choose Your Own Adventure books, but is more a series of guided daydreaming prompts than anything else. It would probably land in that ambiguous space that could be argued as being ergodic or non-ergodic, but after watching this video, I'm now realizing what a fantastic tool it could be for prompting the general reader to experiment with the genre, in their own minds. Each prompt encourages the reader to play out their own story inside their mind, unconfined by anything but the loosest of prompts, and suggests that the "game" being played can last as long as the reader is actively thinking about it. I've been actively adding on and off to the same storyline I started based off the space travel prompt ever since I bought the book three years ago. The book itself was compiled from a series of out-of-print books with the same premise that were discovered second-hand in part by one of the founders of the Corridor youtube channel (youtube.com/@Corridor), and was promoted on their channels several times around it's release with additional information on the discovery and compiling process: Promotion for the compiled book: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKrNYX6ff7mJhdU Additional mentions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppjYaZt9r5Jqjtk starting at 0:50 I'm almost postitive there was a video where they talked more in-depth about the original author, but I've unfortunately been unable to find it (the video was from about four years ago); it was just a section added onto a video with a completely different premise. If anyone knows which video it was though, I'd love to see it again!

[@White1Tiger2Dan]

Thank you so much for this. I think this is the first time I've ever felt a video essay was exactly what I was looking for upon seeing the title and thumbnail. I'm a massively infrequent reader, reading maybe a single book every couple of years, but every now and then I try to respark the passion for it in the hopes that it'll hook me. Needless to say, I've gone and impulse bought both S. and The Unfortunates (which seem the closest to my tastes) thanks to this video. Praying I can get the same joy reading these as you clearly had making this video. Infectious enthusiasm really can be the key.

[@bird6708]

i n t r e s t i n g

[@DeAthWaGer]

All of the "feelies" included with S. reminds me of old text adventure PC games. On Commodore 64 some games like Suspect and Cutthroat came with stacks of letters, postcards, news clippings, etc. and were necessary to beat the game. Some were used as copy protection (Sierra did this a lot in their point-and-click adventures).

[@jasonrhome710]

There's a non-linear spread in Alan Moore's Promethea where the characters are walking on a möbius strip having a conversation. The word balloons can be read in multiple orders and still make sense. It's the only thing I really remember about that series and I'd love to get a print of just those two pages to display.

[@Kaoruishere]

So many intriguing books for my to-do list! As for more books like these: There's "We All Hear Stories in the Dark" by Robert Sherman. Basically it's a huge-ass huge collection of short stories, but you read them in a CYOA-way and there's an overarching narrative that changes by the order in which you read them. In-between there are also stories that you get to read if you "cheat". I still haven't read the beastie myself though. So far it has been this 1500 page monster sitting on my shelves that I plan to get to at some point.

[@ArtsyFoxo]

I work in a library, and I remember seeing this book when I was checking in stuff from book drop. I was flipping through it for the first time, and holy cow I am really convinced to purchase this book instead of just simply checking it out. I want to keep something like this in my personal collection. By the way, I absolutely adore the visuals and your updated character images! This entire video is a joy to experience!

[@flingsquids]

I can't imagine reading House of Leaves without jumping back and forth between the appendices, but perhaps that's my excuse to re read it!

[@n3w529]

as a young person starting to get into writing, this has made me think a bit more about what exactly I want to write, as I also deeply entrenched in the physical art world (specifically watercolor and inking) I've been wondering how to make the writing I'm doing feel more spatial and tangible, and learning of ergodic literature has spawned some ideas into my brainskull

[@imbatrossthescrub2096]

THE OUTRO SONG HAS THE LICK Also, this video was incredibly fun to watch and your character has the best talksprites I've ever seen. Props to whoever drew those, my god. I will be recommending this to everyone.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thanks very much. The talksprites were done by DragonFoxGirl and a link to her twitter is in the description

[@noirtreize2713]

Damn, from how you describe The Unfortunates' plot I thought The Protag had an one sided crush on Tony or something.

[@napsylev6922]

Wow! This video is incredible! You say at the end that this is the most fun you've ever had with a video on this channel and it's incredibly easy to tell. As a big fan of your stuff over the ages I think this just might be my favorite thing you've put out yet!

[@Sedric-and-Charlie]

I love House Of Leaves but my god it's such a pain buying the right one. I've had all three prints at one point or another. Anyway, I'm still waiting to see if someone writes a novel within the framework of a private wiki. I think there's a lot of potential to the idea but it'd be a LOT of labour to both make it consistent and keep it a compelling narrative experience navigating non-linear hypertext bridges between the elements

[@Artoveli]

I couldn’t look through all the comments so it’s possible someone else has already mentioned this, but have you heard of ‘Cain’s Jawbone’? It’s DEFINITELY an ergodic work, where you’re supposed to solve a murder mystery by putting all the pages in the right order. It’s considered almost diabolically difficult, with only a tiny handful of people (like… 2 or 3 I think?) actually finding the correct order/answer since it was published. Besides that one, there’s also ‘Maze’ by Christopher Manson. It’s an illustrated book where you and a group of others enter a subterranean maze and try to navigate your way to the exit (or the centre? I can’t remember) by making a choice based on clues in the text and illustrations on each page. This one falls more into the ‘armchair treasure hunt’ style, which is a fascinating genre of book in itself, but since it involves turning yourself around and around until you’re just as lost in the pages as you are in the maze, I figure it also fits nicely into this discussion. Thanks for such an interesting video! This sort of stuff fascinates me.

[@RaptieFeathers]

Huge recommendation for the Thursday Next book series. The writing is very Douglas Adams-esque, and the author, Jasper Fforde is incredible at his craft. At one point, the protagonists have to hide in the footnotes so that they don't get detected, there's a lot of really weird stuff, but... Yeah. Check the books out for sure. It's also the series with, in my opinion, the most chilling and effective use of a plot twist I've ever seen. The series itself isn't particularly ergodic, but it _is_ about books like that

[@thelunchlady8276]

I know I'm late to the party but thanks for recommending Jasper Fforde. On the third Thursday Next and I read his Constant Rabbit. Fantastic stuff!

[@RaptieFeathers]

@@thelunchlady8276 I'm delighted to hear it :D

[@calmkat9032]

Ok, you sold me on Scorch Atlas. The fact that people who would balk at burning books unanimously say, "yeah, this one deserves it", obviously piques my curiosity.

[@SomaC-7]

Same. I'm willing to give it a try

[@w.dtaylor2801]

Wow what timing! I just finished House of Leaves, and it blew my mind AND my back out with how amazing it is! I was starving for content similar and this incredible essay pops up on my recommended a few days later!!! Thank you for taking the time to make a very cohesive essay on this kind of genre, I'm very grateful!

[@kiiogato]

Feels like a holiday every time I see a new upload from you! Sat down with my coffee this morning and got to digest it all before my workday- excellent coverage of ergodic literature, never knew there was a proper term for it. Always appreciate the time and effort you put into your videos, thanks so much!

[@lebsbian]

I think Nightbooks by J.A. White counts in this genre - it goes between the main story, which is a modern retelling of Hansel and Gretel, and the main character's short horror stories that he is being forced to read to the witch every night. It's made for a younger audience but I'd still definitely recommend it!

[@alasdairgoudie9459]

22:31 As soon as I saw this title, I knew S would come up in this discussion! I remember being very much a fan of S back in the day, and thinking it was a revolutionary new text and showing it to my English teacher (and loaning it to her to read, even). In my defence, I was 14.

[@spinelsubliminaluser8029]

Hearing you suddenly talk about AIDungeon brought me back to when I used to use it all the time. It's awful at remembering by itself, that's why I usually used the memory system as well as the pinned section and that usually helped.

[@2teepeepictures382]

Absolutely loved the video. I can tell your passion by the way you apologized for being too critical after complementing every single book. that is some genuine self expression right there. I actually had a pretty cool idea while the video was going for a time loop novel featuring two nations that exist on separate timelines. They can only interact with each other through a machine that will teleport people back and forth. The story that takes place in one nation will be on the top of the page and the story that takes place in the other nation will be on the bottom of the page. you will be able to tell where the characters are headed in the other nations timeline by the number on the machine and how it will line up with the page number on the book. I think it would be even cooler if it was a graphic novel. maybe even a graphic novel with no dialogue.

[@kiklonio]

I have been waiting for this wonderful day to arrive...good to see you upload again! I love your videos and hope you've been doing well!

[@DoubleDog2182]

Here to feed the algorithm. But also appreciate the illustrated examples from the book. Thanks for the great breakdown!

[@noahnaugler7611]

I actually have seen a D&D style statblock in a digitized book, which used a "random flick" method for generating numbers (a grid of random numbers on which you click the end of a pencil with two fingers). I found it in its digitized form on the Google Play store a few years ago

[@schufck5272]

A very good video with very good, interesting sounding recommendations. S. and Scorch Atlas sound really fascinating.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thank you very much!

[@Lo808]

It sounds like Scorched Atlas’s stories could be potential things you could do to the book? I haven’t read it, but that’s the initial impression I got after you detailed the different forms of rain it describes. Like all of the people in the stories are going through these things because of what people are encouraged to do with the book itself.

[@ennuionme6378]

I read The Unfortunates just a few months ago, because my favorite literature podcast (Backlisted) has sung the praises of B.S. Johnson on a few occasions. I really really like that book, but I had the, erm, Unfortunate luck of drawing both the chapters you advise throwing out as my first two after the First one. I have a much higher tolerance for that variety of bad sex scene than most people, but "And the way her breasts bobbed, undulated, oscillated, massily dependent, in their similar ways, but something differently, independently, as she held her arms up to wash the pits, first one, shifting her weight, then the other, the delicacy, ah!" set a fairly sour tone. Still though, I enjoyed it and am interested in exploring Johnson's work further.

[@kariissmol9172]

Omg thats the worse sentence about tits I've ever seen my eyes!!!

[@princegoatcheese9379]

I like the concept of choose-your-own-adventure books. The fact that the reader can choose to drive the story wherever they want it to go was very fun to 10-year-old me who read most of the Goosebumps "You Choose the Scare" mini series many years ago.

[@DomoFudge]

Just found your channel and I'm so excited to binge it all! Also I really love your fursona design

[@aduffyguy]

I am literally waiting for my local library to get the book to me. The timing of this video is crazy! As much as I want to go further into that video, I'll have to stop at 4:46 and come back later! Can't risk spoilers!

[@canadacat9329]

This video is very inspiring. Incorporating some ergodic elements might be what my story needs. I won't go too deep into it besides the fact that I dislike when mystery stories don't give all the info to the reader to the point were they can figure it out themselves.

[@TheTrailArchivist]

I would like to quickly note that the "ARG" attached to House of Leaves was a one time thing created by a content creator here on KZbin who was analyzing the story, creating the series "Pelican Black" as a companion to his own analysis. It has nothing to do with the novel at hand. Other than that, this was a very great video, & agree with the sentiment that more writers should experiment with the format if it works for them. Thanks for the exposure!

[@marsfeathers]

I haven't gotten to the part yet but I'm excited for the choice of games section. I spent many a lonely night on my iPod touch playing those games in middle school and high school. They were a good escape and really fun and engaging

[@_xkikix_]

i love this book. it's my absolute favorite, for the sole reason of johnny. i expected horror, which i did get in a way, but got a triple character study. my favorite moment was how the '7 second hallway incident' or whatever it was called lined up with johnnys own childhood trauma.

[@CardinalWest]

Awesome video! This is probably the push I needed to finally get around to reading House of Leaves.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

Thanks! Hope you enjoy the book

[@joemontondo9113]

It might not be fully Ergodic, but in AP Comp we read Ella Minnow Pea, a Story in Letters by Mark Dunn and it's a wonderful book about an island who idolizes the man who figured out the sentence "The Quick Brown Fox jumps over the Lazy Dog" and as the book progresses, letters fall off of the statue and thus the people of the island are forbidden from using those letters. Very fun book.

[@maybe_]

I was thinking about that while watching this!

[@enemro]

This was fantastic! Thank you for this in-depth look into this genre (for lack of a better word), this was incredibly informative and thought provoking. I admit that I belong to the group of people who would at initial glance at these types of novels be highly doubtful that I could enjoy it, but your video and explanation of chosen examples made them look more accessible. I will try to hunt down some of the books you mentioned, thank you so much for broadening our horizons!

[@owlcacone]

This is the first long video essay that I have NOT finished in a single sitting. I don't know why it took me multiple days to finish this video, as it is extremely engaging, well written, funny at times and has made me want to read multiple books that you talked about in it.

[@doctorelfinstone1414]

As someone whose favorite book is House of Leaves I've been itching to find/read other books that took such an engagingly different approach to formatting so thanks a bunch for all those recommendations; I'll definitely be checking at least a couple of them out! 👍 Also you explained what 'ergodic' fiction is really well and I definitely was thinking of CYOAs almost before you were done with the explanation! As for any recommendations I have... well I don't have any recommendations for ergodic *literature* but one of my absolute favorite examples of ergodic fiction in general is the "Adventures with Markiplier" series here on KZbin. Its a technically a short series (with only three installments) with each taking the form of a CYOA movie of sorts; where you 'play' the main pov character going on some kind of adventure alongside Mark. If I could compare them to anything you've mentioned I'd say that its the most similar to choice of games - largely due to the similar format (cyoa) but also having the admirable trait of being deliberately LGBTQIA+ inclusive by having the viewer character's gender deliberately vague so anyone of any gender orientation could see themselves in the character; and given the theme of possible romantic involvement between the pov character and Mark throughout the series this applied to any and all sexual and romantic orientations as well. However while its generally well made, fun, and competently written with likeable characters there generally isn't much thematic depth to either the story or the characters themselves (with the exception of the latest installment In Space With Markiplier which does delve deeper into themes and character arcs/development). But much like S. there's a whole different story happening around its margins if you know where to look... 'Cause if you watch through enough of it you'll see certain characters making little cameo appearances here and there who will invariably reference events that don't seem to line up with anything presented in the main "Adventures with Mark" series; that, much like the supplemental material included with S. lead you into diversions into the various pieces of what many call the "Markiplier Cinematic Universe" to piece together what's *really* going on underneath all the goofy hijinks. And much like any good example of ergodic fiction the "Markiverse" can *technically* be watched in any order but just like the example of choosing when to read the annotations in HoL the order you watch them in will greatly affect your overall perception/experience of the story. Do you decide to them in order of release, for instance? Or maybe focus on watching the main three "Adventures With" installments and get to the rest later? The choice is up to you! 'Cause after all... Life is ours to choose, as I always say ;)

[@maas260498]

Regarding S.: There are prints of books that intentionally leave a lot of room for reader anotation in the margins. Usually expensive editions of philosophy classics like Kant's first critique

[@raskr8137]

45:21 "we had a contest where you could destroy your own copy of scorch atlas and, whoever destroyed it the best, then, they won the price, which was a replacement copy" this made me laugh out louder than appropriate

[@Zanerus]

YEEEEEESS! THE BEST BIRD IS BACK. Every time I see you update it always makes my day better.

[@NemesisTWarlock]

4:44 I mean, the damn thing has "This book is not for you" written on the first god damn page, I can understand why people would think that lol

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

I never liked that opening sentence, but it sets a tone I guess

[@samanthageorge6447]

This video is so incredible, thank you for all the work you put into this!!!

[@Doubleaa500]

As a writer i have been entrigued by this and have always thought about writing something like this because i love going as complex as possible!! I really want to read things like this as well, but it really fills my mind with ideas where i get too focused on what is written and it stops my imagination from branching out into my own ideas, im rather filled with the ideas that have already been written!