Eric Shahan: from Koryu Jujutsu to Kodokan Judo, how did it actually happened?!?!

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[@Chadi]

Eric's list of books can be found in the link that's in the description.

[@TheShicklee]

Shiro Saigo of Daito Ryu Aikijujustu is the main reason Judo became recognised as a superior art. He was Kano’s secret weapon in the randori matches against jujutsu schools.

[@gingercore69]

Sumo actually allows 3 strikes that are technically forbiden in mma, those are the headbutt, the thrust to the throat and the chop to the back of the head... That shows that some of the strikes can be modified to be used in full contact competition

[@Chadi]

Sumo is indeed underrated

[@QuantumPyrite_88.9]

@@Chadi Thanks to both of you for your comments .

[@Chadi]

@@QuantumPyrite_88.9 🙇🏻‍♂️

[@scarred10]

There are no headbutts or strikes to the neck allowed in sumo,they are allowed to push the throat but not strike it

[@mikedasilva5239]

Atemiwaza, I.e. striking the vital points, is an important part of Jujitsu, Aikijutsu and old style Judo and Aikido. Atemi is absolutely necessary in a street situation.

[@sirseigan]

@@MM-Red depends on what styles/ryu you want to deep dive in. Most old koryu have some form of atemiwaza and it is often used to create openings for grapling takedowns, but also for finnishing. You can see similar strategies in HEMA-unarmed fighting, and perhaps it is due to the fact that weapons was involved in the grappling (just a groudless speculation on my part). In the style I have trained there is what is called "kyoshijutsu" (attacking sensitive/painful targets) and "koppojutsu" (attacking/manipulating the bonestructure) which both can be used together when doing "atemi" to achive your goal. I guess you can search on the japanese words I mentioned above and find a good range of books on the subject.

[@sirseigan]

Yes I agree that atemi is essencial skill to learn - especially in a street situation.

[@retroghidora6767]

Love getting more info, it's interesting to see how the narratives on how Judo and BJJ developed have changed. Big ups Chadi this wouldn't be happening in the way it is now without you.

[@Chadi]

You have no idea how much this means to me.

[@CJ-uf6xl]

Interesting stuff. Thanks Chadi.

[@Chadi]

You're welcome

[@deansander441]

So I’ve done both Judo and Hakko Ryu Jujitsu, 100% Japanese jujitsu preserves dangerous techniques. At the school I trained at we would come up with creative ways to train it. We’d wear head gear with face shields to simulate grabbing ears, hair, fish hooking, and eye gouges etc. That being said I did JJJ and Karate for 10years and trained like that, won fights in karate, wrestling, and mma and still got my a$$ kick when I started Judo. lol

[@Chadi]

That's a neat experience, thank you for sharing this

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Wait, what is JJJ? Anyways, i also did Judo and Japanese Jujutsu (because my Judo instructor was also a Jujutsu one), and i totally loved it, it has a lot in common with Aikido and obviously Judo, and it has more strikes than those two!

[@deansander441]

@@jestfullgremblim8002 Japanese Ju-Jitsu lol My Karate teacher did JJJ, definitely some similarities with akido and tons of unorthodox grappling and subs

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@deansander441 Oh that's what it means! Yeah it sure is similar to Aikido

[@MrStClair247]

How is that possible when you stated that you trained in an art that preserved dangerous techniques ? Wouldn't your sense of awareness / body sensitivity be honed to such a level that a practitioner in judo couldn't be able to handle you so easily ? Clarify for me please. Thank you.

[@haffoc]

On the vital points, I learned a bunch of them when I was a kid. We didn't learn to strike them, but to use them as pressure points. I had several scraps as a kid where that knowledge was useful. It didn't win fights by itself, but it was useful in breaking a dominating grip.

[@MrStClair247]

So if I'm understanding correctly... If someone were to strike the vital points in a physical situation, they could end a fight ?

[@mikedasilva5239]

Judo is a sport and there are safety rules and regulations for contests. Nowadays, the emphasis is on sport and not self defence.

[@haffoc]

Eric is a treasure. He and a handful of other translators are finally making Japanese MA text available to the English speaking world. And these texts are wildly informative whether your discipline is grappling JJ-type art, judo, or karate. If you are serious about your art, you need to get hold of them.

[@kananisha]

We do alot of Rhondori. Like some days coach is like "get moving " and you round Robin sparing with everyone in class.

[@shadowfighter6445]

This was awesome, thank you for sharing ☺️.

[@vinniebrightman9746]

Very interesting. I love learning about this stuff.

[@henrikg1388]

It's nice to hear it from that POV for a change. Great video!

[@bintarochan]

Just my 2 cents about Randori in Jujutsu. This is what one of my senpai told me (training in a dojo in Japan): Jujutsu randori is Judo. Because the core principles are the same, Judo is what allows you to practice Jujutsu. The school I practice transitioned to a Judo school, keeping the Kata of Jujutsu, and students had first to obtain Shodan in Judo before being able to practice Jujutsu.

[@totallynotajay5443]

I wish this was more of the norm, it allows people to preserve old ryuha while also pushing them to do judo randori to learn how to apply principles.

[@sirseigan]

On the topic on how "kyoshijutsu" can be used in a fight; it is often used to distract or to manipulate balance/posture, often through pain, in order to open up for a grappling takedown. Think a of it as a jab in boxing but if it lands it might create an opening for a takedown instead of a punching combo. Atemi with a multiple, kind of... One that is quite easy for a judoka to recognize is from grabing the collar push in the thumb in the side of the neck/under the ear in order too more easily push over the balance on one foot to open up for a throw. However they can also be used in the grappling it self. For example grabbing not only the gi but also the flesh and skinn on the backside of the upper arm while throwing (chances are that the person who is not fully prepared for it will make his point of balance higher for a splitt second, opening up for a throw). Another example is in the jointlock called "kotegaeshi" in modern jujutsu and aikido where one can instead of grabbing around the thumb muscle/wrist burrow in the fingers under the bone in the thumb and/or burrow down the thumb between the bones on the back of the hand to induce pain at the same time as you throw to momentarely overload the senses, making the takedown easier. There is about a million of these. As said in the video; they are not "death punches", but they could give a milliseconds upper hand in a fight if done right. And yes many of them will be kind of useless with gloves on as they relay on idusing sharp pain which the gloves takes away/soften up (so most likely not so effective in mma). Not all of them ofc, but many. However I know bounchers that use them very often to more easily persuade people that it is better to be cooperative and follow then to resist...

[@jesseshaffer3951]

I have come to believe government played a roll as well. Judo was designed to be a sport, but Nations still viewed certain technique as military secrets in some cases. -- if I remember right for instance the southern Shaolin temple (where they taught white crane and monk fist, considered to be a source for karate) was burned down in 1928. Part of that burning was because a warlord was going to defect to Japan. Since (if Jesse emcamp is correct) these two forms are no longer at the temple.--- I s something I am going to do some research on. I just haven't taken the time yet.-- It just makes sense in the changes to the meaning of 'internal'' and 'external'. I know government dispatching spies to martial schools was normal for certain. So their lack of involvement in the history is suspicious to me.

[@Chadi]

It's all possible, this happened over decades, so many grey nuances would have happened.

[@senseihitmanwayofkempo8305]

Boxing w intent 2 kill = Kempo

[@Chadi]

Old Kenpo was cool too

[@mekugi]

Chadi, you did most of the talking here. Eric simply doesn't know and just translates subjects and books he knows very little about. There was a Kano as the head of the Kodokan until very recently.

[@stefanobio7045]

Hi Chadi.....will you be completing a video on Kenpo or Atemi Waza techniques in the near future please? Thank you.

[@senseihitmanwayofkempo8305]

Shingin ki destructor

[@Eternaprimavera73]

It looks like the modern arts were born not to much for ethical reasons, but for commercial reasons, like not disappearing by creating money business, eh eh. One thing that will be not ever enough said, is that 2 armies which fight one the other, or one fighting another, they are fighting, they are not competing. DO you also forget that Kano had already randori with one of his teachers when he was still in his earlier 20ies, and even earlier...so definitely randori is not something which wasn t in the old ju jitsu. It is like BJJ people pretending to have created the ground fighting.. What Kano said is that he found the principle of pull when pushed, push when pulled. But he wasn t the one who created the randori, at all. It was already practiced. Maybe it is possible to speak about evolution. But at a certain point, if we want to evolve, we can evolve more, nowadays. Then, when you say that Judo won against Ju Jutsu, why not to say that Judo lost against wrestling. This puts the things in a different perspective, i think... If it was all about winning, and who wins whom, Judo should have been left for Catch wrestling back then.... ANd finally, was catch wrestling ever used in fighting, out of any competition...HMMM, nooo. Really not. Actually in the streets when two people fight, they use the same techniques, these exotic grabbing. Is what happens when the fight is real. Everything is fine there! SO if you train like that, you are considering the reality, not the tournment. Of course when the conditions are different, the opportunities and priorities change. WHich means that it wasn t for competition. Which means that throwing was not the priority, was just a mean between the others. inhabilitating was the 1st. Not throwing. SO when Judo makes everything with a throw, it is not a summary of the old school of JuJitsu. He takes somehow a minor topic of it. It is not so simple, but this is the reality.

[@whitewh1]

Chadi, which book did you say was your favorite?

[@Chadi]

Self defense for women (fujin goshin jutsu)

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

HAHAHA oh man, i was replying to someone about Jujutsu using strikes a lot, and i just remembered the meme "Judo Chop!" It got me rolling for a hot minute. But really, why do martial arts like Aikido, Jujutsu and Judo still train to counter/defend against a over hand chop? Nobody is ever going to do that against you goddamnit. and before people say that it is to emulate a weapon strike, c'mon! would you really attack like that while having a knife? You would mostly only do that with a stick, but then it is not so hard so you need to train it that much anyways

[@kevionrogers2605]

Go and look at edged weapon assault videos people get hit with downward strikes all the time with 2x4, machetes, knifes, swords, bricks, chairs. The Shikhs groups clashed with swords at the Maharashtra Gurudwara just had a melee with swords, spears, and daggers on March 30 2021. Islamic militants still use swords.

[@IowaRonin]

That's the most common way someone would swing a sword (machete, baseball bat, crowbar, pipe, etc.). Also, some martial arts focus on defending. For example, Aikido philosophy is about pure defense without harming the attacker. They don't train to fight or to learn how to inflict damage.

[@sirseigan]

I have used a both unarmed "diagonal overhand chops" and "over hand hamer fists" successfully in selfdefence situations. So yes it is done and not only with weapons 🙂 If I had a long knife/short sword or a batoon I would probaly use it too if the situation was right.

[@scarred10]

What hes saying is that they dont actually spar full force which is exactly what they get the flack for.

[@senseihitmanwayofkempo8305]

The majic touch real jujitsu

[@MrOpenSeseme]

Or back in the day, they didnt know what they were doing..... To be sadly blunt about it. Since you cant train those koryu techniques, you cant actually do them. Be under no illusion that an choke in Judo can be far more lethal than those untrainable techniques.