Comparing AMP vs. Bench source annealer Part 1

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[@cleaner6666]

Erik, i am very impressed how deep you are going in detail and support us reloaders with all your experience. Very very worthful and not to find elsewhere. Thank you at this point

[@wildcat_reloading]

I love the amount of effort Eric goes through, somthing a simple as marketing brass done, whent the entire mile, i like it

[@JamesS.254]

Came here to see the comparison, leaving with another reason I need a Fiber Laser Engraver. Thanks a lot Erik.

[@ErikCortina]

😂

[@edwardbilello3288]

@@ErikCortina what engraver are you using ? great videos BTW!

[@Squat5000]

I love the attention to detail. This is how we transition away from doing things just because we heard it was good, towards doing things because it gets results. I got a rifle with a proof barrel that still shoots better than me, but taking the time to explore hand loading has improved the accuracy notably

[@TexasTrained]

Exactly.Numbers dont lie

[@quickanneal2579]

Well done Erik. As a Induction annealer manufacturer ourselves we love the independent testing between the two technologies. We await the rest of your testing and results!!!

[@richardbriscoe8563]

The numbers (161 vs 155) from clean new brass vs clean neck turned is just under 4% difference. Although it’s nice to be “spot on”, is that enough difference to make a meaningful difference in the hardness, if any, resulting from the annealing from the induction annealing?

[@quickanneal2579]

Hi Richard. I can't speak for amp. We manufacture our own machines/brand. But yes there is time differences between dirty and clean cut brass. On ours depending on the brass manufacturer and what calibre brass anything from 0.1 - 0.3 sec difference. Dirty = longer time = more heat to anneal Clean & cut = less time = less heat. For consistency it is best to use correct settings and it is easy to achieve those settings. For hunting and prs/nrl shoots you probely won't notice, fclass and elrs maybe that is what you need on that level. Cheers

[@rungun3982]

Hi have you got an amp press to do your own testing?

[@RatelLaw]

Thank you for your effort. Looking forward to the results.

[@foxtales4809]

Looking forward to the final results . Thanks for taking the time Erik.

[@johndannenberg9338]

Thank you for the in depth reloading teachings and reviews on all the technology thats coming into the shooting world. Thanks Erik

[@mikemcallister9091]

Been on the fence on what to use for annealing.. Thanks for putting this together it was very well done..

[@adeniranm7647]

Excited for part 2. Thanks for sharing!

[@yellowjacket548]

Excellent review Erik!

[@ronnydowdy7432]

Thank you for all you share. I am waiting for the next one. Keep em coming.

[@waderatcliff-ci6lg]

As always, well done Erik! You always teach me something every time I watch your videos. I am not a bench rest shooter; however I demand that my hunting loads be extremely accurate. I am on the fence about annealing and I am pretty sure I am going to take the leap and buy an annealer and get started soon. I greatly appreciate the details sir and keep them coming.

[@laatjie]

Cautious to see the results, thanks Erik

[@BobSmith-zh6it]

Thanks for the video. I am looking forward to the next video. I just purchased the annealezz annealer. I hope I can get consistent results with it.

[@xdm9guy]

Great video, I’m glad someone did a detail comparison of the two. However the first piece of brass through the flame annealer was toasted a little longer than the others. You should have used a sacrificial piece of brass to adjust the time.

[@jimhudson9958]

Looking forward to seeing the results from the press!

[@anthonyross9276]

Great stuff Mr.Cortina as usual. Ive been looking at the annealeez setup since its closer to my price range your flame annealer isnt super spendy either compared to the Amp system. Thanks for the video!

[@jeffsikula2920]

Wow! That Dillon is absolutely cool and i cant believe how fast the AMP is. I shot an 1.5" group myself at 1000y doing it the old-fashioned way with a drill, clock, a torch and a Redding Big Boss 2.

[@vszmey]

Finally, someone dare to do such test!!! Looking forward for next video!

[@lennyfoffa5971]

Thank You so much for making a confusing topic easy to understand. Excellent

[@aussiesteveakastevecallagh2280]

Great set up Mate I would love to own both of them

[@silentbob267]

I look forward to seeing the results of this experiment.

[@ElfstersRiflesandReloading]

Very awesome 👌looking forward to part2

[@Dwayne7834]

Thanks for sharing the video. Great information and comparison.

[@NautiRulz]

OH man....! That's unfair leaving us in suspension 😁 - can't wait for the follow up. Your process is methodical 👍👌

[@chrisvonahnen3578]

Thank you for your efforts to share your knowledge & test results. A note! I would suggest you acquire a Webster hardness tester! The AMP machine has a test to determine the setting, but as with all other reloading equipment, you need a way to test an verify that the machine is working correctly! For the propane annealing, you really need to test to verify for every batch, since this method is less reliable. If you guesstimate the intensity of the flame, your don't have a 100% repeatable process. To tweak the propane to hit your target for hardness reliable for different brand of brass, your only option is to test hardness. Also you might have other needs than the "auto" functionality of the AMP allows. If factory brass is hardness 13 on the W-B75b, then you need a way to confirm that your annealing results are 13. Or if your needs for neck tension are different than hardness of 13 allows, then you need to be able to test. A test series of a verified increments in hardness, allows you to adjust to your needs & verify results. Trial an error approach is possible, but probably more time consuming & costly, compared to test based on verified hardness after annealing. If you don't really know why what you do works, then it might be really difficult to work out what might be wrong, if it stops working for you. The main models for Brass are: W-B75 & W-B92 : www.amazon.com/dp/B07T3ZH89R/?coliid=I2QVPCSR156ABL&colid=2X111SDZ9N710&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it & The "W-B75" come in 3 other versions: W-B75b, W-BB75 & W-BB75b . W-B75b test range is 63-105HRF. W-BB75b test range is 18-100HRE. Both for >6mm inner tube diameter.

[@wm.traynor1143]

Ready and waiting for Part 2😃

[@CHenry1951]

Erik, detail, detail, detail......yes that's how it's done !!................thanks

[@donjohnson8649]

Don Johnson I needed to anneal a batch of 70 6mmBR cases (using 0157 setting for the LAPUA SRP cases) and just for the fun of it, I timed myself to see how long that would take. I took 11 minutes and 10 seconds to do it. Granted, my annealer was on the bench, plugged in and all set up to do 6mmBRs so all I had to do was grab a bunch that already had the primers knocked out and have at it. i had thought that it would take longer than that, so I was quite surprised with the small amount of time it took! BTW, I completely agree with your assessment/comments on the use of calipers! I use decent calipers when I want to have speed, reasonable consistency and reasonable accuracy, so I DO use them quite a bit, but I DO use my mic which is somewhat slower but it gets me down to .0005" accuracy or better when I need it.

[@ericmccowen5599]

Great detailed video. Thanks

[@henryherman9113]

Hi Erick..I was looking for the one your using .The 1 with the turn table style..Couldn't find one so I went to the torch with the bottle and a drill.lol.I got it down pat works for me..I can tell just buy looking at it when it starts to turn blue the brass itself..I count about 8 seconds..

[@tomgoodwin9161]

All my reloading life (starting in 1967) I have used a pie pan or cake pan (I get them from thrift stores), Fill to halfway up the side of the case. put the rest of the cases in the pan, standing up. Get a popsickle stick. Heat the mouth of the brass with a pencil-point propane torch. Dim the lights. When the mouth glows, tip the brass over into the water with the popsickle stick and do the next one until all are annealed. This takes longer to read than it does to perform.Gather them up with my fingers and replace with un-annealed cases. Every other pan-full, replace the water with cold water and continue to march. Yes, it takes judgement to guage by eye the degree of anneal, but so do the other methods. As for "uniformity of anneal" I know the others ('specially the electric methods) are more uniform. But I feel I must keep the case head cool and never let the heat creep down to where the strength is needed. One soft head, even only one, will wreck the rifle and maybe kill or blind the shooter.

[@rungun3982]

Just getting the parts together to make my own induction annealer. Following with interest.

[@lukemartin8379]

Your science experiments are the best!

[@markRTFGuns]

Just ordered mine ! Can’t wait to get it ! Press too. Lol. Thank you for your video sir.

[@betocool78]

Como siempre pura garantía tus videos

[@MichaelLloyd]

I keep saying that I'm not a competitive shooter but I guess competing with myself counts. I use Ballistic Recreations annealing salt when I anneal. I don't anneal ever time but apparently I should be, I thought I had reloading figured out a long time ago. I almost feel like a beginner again. Thanks for taking the time to make these.

[@daltonbough3302]

I enjoy these videos thanks. How is the construction business have missed you in those videos as well

[@wyattlarsen3880]

Another great vid Erik. Unfortunately it will be a minute before I can shell out for an AMP. I just have to do it on the flame anneal I built a couple of years ago. I do anneal as you used to; neck just turns red and they drop. I called EC Annealing. 😁

[@christurley391]

Thanks for the video.

[@hbudsmalley6317]

After watching LOTS of annealing videos by other reloaders I have a feeling that the way you've been doing it with the flame annealer is way better than the 750 degree tempilaq method. I would almost bet that you are not going to see much difference in your old method vs the AMP machine.

[@uda123cat]

Thank you for a very nice video. However, prior to concluding that one machine is better than the other based on how the force measurements come out and how they shoot, you need to look at the times on the bench source; reducing the time or looking at a slight red glow or using tempilaq (yes this isn't perfect but something objective at least) prior to making a definitive statement. That 8 seconds is really cooking the brass. It may be the way you have always done it, but that doesn't mean the brass is ideally annealed and comparing it to the AMP is not apples to apples. I know you can't measure the molecular structure for the bench source the way the guys at AMP can and have calibrated their machine, but cooking the brass and then comparing it to the AMP isn't quite a just test. Your results at the range/competition is likely because you are a world class shooter, read the wind better than others, etc. I have both machines (bench source and AMP MKII) and they can give very similar results when using the 21st century hydroseater. No, this isn't the AMP force transducer, but it is at least objectively measuring something. Anyway, I think you are doing a great job, but I am just concerned about sweeping conclusions based on an incomplete test. Thank you.

[@josephlow265]

Yes agreed! I have used a Benchsource for many years and one thing is certain, you cannot setup the machine and use it with a prior annealing time. The reason is simple, what affects annealing is heat, the amount of heat transfer to the case is affected by time, but also how hot the flame is, how far the torch is from the case, and where the torch is pointing at. One may be able to fix the latter two, but it is impossible to get the same flame once you have turned the flame off. As such, one must calibrate the annealing time each time you use the machine using the above mentioned method. Yes, I also agree that 8 seconds in the video where the brass is glowing cherry red is really cooking the brass and something to avoid...

[@xenaguy01]

I agree with you both, that 8 seconds in a twin flame is probably 50% too long, and brass should never change color to orange.

[@abelgirsh6440]

Hope your ready for a vacation to supervise the building of Matt's new silliness. I'm assuming you already know, but you can't tell Mere😂! God Bless you Sir!

[@notmeatall7116]

By the way I am using the salt bath for annealing. I'm pretty happy with how consistent it is. It beet the crap out of the torch and drill method. Probably not quite as good as the induction method though.

[@ThatGuyChannel]

Love your videos and the information Erik! Without seeing part 2 yet, I imagine that the flame cases are going to have less consistent neck tension. Honestly I think that the 8 second flame is too much for annealing. I bet if tempilaq was applied a double flame system would only need like 4-5 seconds to achieve that 750F point. Curious to see the next video! You rock brother!

[@billy19461]

Can’t wait!

[@FClassJohn]

Erik my hands hurt just watching you pick up primers, you really to get a Frankford Arsenal Vibra-Prime for your pick up tubes, it'll change your life. Ask me how I know......

[@wilfdarr]

@Erik & FC John: Could I get your thoughts on a molten salt setup? It seems to me like a super cheap way to get 90% of the results: am I about right or am I out to lunch?

[@StuninRub]

@@wilfdarr Just get the torch annealers like the "ugly annealer", it's safer and only marginally more expensive.

[@wilfdarr]

@@StuninRub Ya but the settings don't feel as precise...

[@StuninRub]

@@wilfdarr You realize the AMP annealer is not that much more precise then a flame annealer right? Even when tested with AMP's own AMP press. The only real advantage of the AMP annealer is not needing to use an open flame.

[@wilfdarr]

@@StuninRub Electric heating can be very precise, not that flame can't be, but you need good controls to get flame right, and those aren't going to come cheap. That said I think the benefit of the AMP is the ability to calibrate it automatically, not so much the precision. But for the price, I feel like salt annealing would beat similarly priced electric or flame annealers.

[@mikebrinlee780]

Now this is one REALLY wanting to see the out come

[@codystraight1443]

That case trimmer really did quick work. Beats doing it by hand by a long ways

[@lapualapua3591]

Nice job done in the men shed 10/10

[@ethanschroeder9531]

I dig the quality tools. Mitutoyo are the best 👌

[@markfinkel1761]

I have the same 2 annealers, & the only reason I bought the AMP was because I got it at an estate sale for $500 with 23 pilots. couldn't pass it up. Curious to see what further testing will reveal.

[@jason.e.g]

The suspense.....wow

[@oddursigurdsson3046]

Great review but based on your previous videos the flame annealing was over annealed? Looking forward to see if the results have been pre-determined ;)

[@o2wow]

Facts and only the facts.

[@slipknnnot]

I already know this video is going to destroy my ego about my annealing

[@hbudsmalley6317]

Where's Part 2? I'm dying to find out if there is any appreciable difference in seating force consistency between the two annealing methods.

[@thetriode]

I am just surprised you didn't have a case feeder for your old annealing system honestly. With the wheel set up the way it is that'd have been super easy to add. Just a bit of Ready Rod, bracketry and some Lee Pro 1000 or similar parts I suspect.

[@larryrupert3563]

Great stuff! Eric. When is part 2 coming?

[@ErikCortina]

Soon

[@joembarak]

Loving the content mate. I was just wondering if you trim all your brass every time you reload them, and if so does that decrease case life.

[@ErikCortina]

Yes. No.

[@joembarak]

@@ErikCortina thanks for the reply, keep up the good stuff

[@charleshetrick3152]

The problem with most induction Annealers is productivity. There’s a company Giraud that makes an annealing set up that can be adapted to use Annie Annealers brand power supplies and coils. It’s great because it’s auto feeding.

[@machinist7230]

I'm amazed nobody has come out with a way to automate the Bench Source annealer - adding one of the collaters on the market (either Dillon or Hornady would probably work, or if you have deep pockets, M-A Systems) looks pretty straight forward.

[@rkelley8475]

That takes all the fun out of it

[@bustabass9025]

(Looking at the gas barbecue grill on my patio) Hmmmm, that has a side burner on it that I never use. Gonna rig up something to hold and rotate my rifle cases over the flame...Viola! Annealed brass, and Midway can keep their pricey rigs, and I can keep my dough!

[@TheBigLeeg]

You “Amp pressed” me with you flame annealing!

[@Whithersoeverthougoest]

Hi Erik, You've helped inspire me to get into PRS...... somewhat off topic but what is the machine you used to engrave the brass? Do you have another video where you talk about your engraver? Also, although I'm sure you probably won't reuse the brass you engraved for competition shooting, do you think the engraving weakens the brass wall there at all, could it cause case separation? Thanks

[@tonystewart7287]

Roll on Part 2 😎😎

[@bdadamovicz]

In all honesty, and saying this having a background in machining and metal forming, those first three from the flame annealer would not be different because of the annealing. As your sizing was done after the annealing and the first three to be sized are the only different from the others that is the strip that must be looked at by process. Your press is able to impart far more pressure than any slight difference in these annealing processes would be able to be affect. In my experience the first parts are always the ones to watch out for. Machines and tooling need to warm up. It very well could be (though I find unlikely) that your dies heated up slightly. It would be an interesting test to see if the first 5-10 pieces of brass measured the same as the last 5-10 of 1000 off a machine that had been running noon stop. It also begs the question as to the size of the dies on the production line somewhere like Lapua or Hornady. A die made of a larger piece of steel will take much longer to be affected by the friction of each piece whereas the dies for the reloader would be affected by heat faster, both heading up and cooling down.

[@SDubovsky]

About use of AZTEC “from now on” - it’s not optimal. All it measures is a thickness of walls in the neck. With firings, brass flows towards neck. So AZTEC will change by a bit. I would test it after couple firings.

[@m5nsx399]

Didn’t look thru all the comments as it may have come up but you can put the Amp in auto mode so you don’t need to keep pressing start making it even faster.

[@russellmiller212]

Aware of some benefits in terms of material resilience, reduced and more controlled case stretching, when would the annealing of casings no longer be cost effective as it seems to have negligible influence of feeding and accuracy with bolt guns. Are all of these unique methods worth the additional labor? Although, one could admit the current 'F-class standard' of 1 - 1.5 inch 5 shot groups at 1,000 yards (courtesy Erik Cortina) is an indication of precision and quality control in every aspect of case preparation.

[@georgeholt8929]

Erik, What's the make of primer seating tool are you using?

[@craigfisher146]

How did you go about marking the brass like that?

[@markroper9269]

Nooooo!!! I want it all now!! Very Scientific method so far!

[@notmeatall7116]

Eric Love your videos. I think you are the most no nonsense guy out there. I'm pretty new at long range precision shooting so I'm doing a lot of experimentation. I'm also an engineer so I have done some pretty crazy sh!# in the machine shop too. A little off subject but this question has been rattling around the back of my head. Full resizing. So I'm working with a 26 Nosler. I have been just neck sizing up to now. I have reloaded as many as 6 or 7 times on the same brass. So far I have not had a single sticky one, and have not even needed to trim. The brass fits perfect every time I reload. The question. Will resizing improve my group sizing? If not I don't see the reason to change anything. At this point I'm not competing either.

[@ErikCortina]

Have you changed the oil in your car? Was it still running good when you did? 😁 FL sizing is mostly for reliability, like your oil changes. Accuracy will be same or slightly better than neck sizing because brass will be more consistent fl sizing. Best part is that you won’t have extraction issues and your bolt will cycle easier.

[@notmeatall7116]

@@ErikCortina Thanks Eric I haven't done any reloading since I watched your video on the subject. I was planning to go ahead with full resizing next time. I'm just stumped as to why I'm not getting any sticky cases or flow. Seems weird.

[@br4713]

The bench source is well made because you can fill it without waiting between each cycle. Is there some kind of automatic feeder for the AMP ? I also wonder if a flame annealer isnt worse because of the oxydization of the neck surface. There's just one thing I dont like with the AMP shell holder is that since you're holding the case on the bottom side, when you drop it into the bucket it falls on the neck... But it's easy to avoid it with a leather glove on your left hand.

[@ErikCortina]

They have the “AMP mate”. Allows you to load it and walk away.

[@valqueenofValhalla]

I’m a bit new to this but you have mapp gas and propane wouldn’t you want to use two of the same cylinders for equal uniform heating or not so much or doesn’t matter?

[@stevekiemele995]

Does your trimmer also chamfer and de-burr?

[@barrygrant2907]

A very methodical comparison. So far, a minute edge to the AMP.

[@jacobcastro1885]

Hi Erik, not seeing many people quenching the brass after annealing, and not much discussion. I would think this woukd be desirable to avoid softening of the wall near case head... thoughts?

[@basremaps8979]

Hi What did you use to mark and put nasmes on the brass ?

[@gorillamotors]

What engraver do you have to engrave on brass cartridges?

[@fasttimmy133]

On your flame sneaker, why one propane flame and one Mapp gas flame?

[@JamesPettinato]

Is it better to anneal before sizing/work hardening then seating into firmed brass or annealing after sizing then seating into soft brass thus brass has less grip on bullet upon firing ?

[@stoker7211]

I use the Dillon 750 but without the automation. Checked on the cost to automate and backed away.

[@ErikCortina]

I didn’t buy the autodrive, I bought my own time back. 😉

[@kennymcconnachie5222]

Does annealing help extend the life of the brass?

[@francoisdavel1786]

Hey Erik. I love the effort you are putting into making this as scientific as possible. You are welcome to contact me for assistance with analyzing and comparing the results you measure using proper methodologies and software (hypothesis testing, two-sample t test etc.). I also have some recommendations on sample sizes for each test you are planning. Let me know.

[@petergoertzen5658]

Is there gonna be a part 2?

[@CGreene591]

Great video - are you gonna finish this one or what?

[@ErikCortina]

😂

[@rjdevince7553]

Just came from a demo ranch video. Looks like Matt is gonna need another building!!!! You should try and collaborate again?

[@eddieb9110]

Is there a part 2 to this?

[@peanutjellyman]

When we gonna get the other parts to see results?

[@f21sh]

when is the second video going to be posted I enjoy and learn from your videos.

[@ErikCortina]

Soon.

[@tonydrake3155]

Do you anneal your brass before or after you clean it?

[@nunayobusiness3384]

I have a question that might not make sense, so please excuse my ignorance. Should brass be cleaned first or after, sized before or after, does it make a difference? Oh I’m also talking about old way.

[@bryannabb0]

When are the results coming?

[@Sharberboy]

I wish my Hornady brass measured that consistent!

[@ErikCortina]

Lapua for the win. Literally. 😉

[@paulmiller7807]

Erik is that a S type FL die with a bushing before the mandrel neck expander or is it a standard FL die?

[@ErikCortina]

Custom sized neck. No bushing.

[@hbsurfcity99]

What happens if you skip this process and just load after trimming?