Comparing AMP vs. Bench source annealer | Part 2

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[@bryannabb0]

Very few of us have the combination of equipment and ability to test something like this. Thank you for the investment of your time and sharing of the data/ results.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

It was an ES of 9 for the AMP vs 12 for the flame FWIW. Not enough for me to justify 1400.00 but I just ordered the Elfster's Flame Annealer! for 259.00!

[@freeandcriticalthinker4431]

how has his annealer worked out for you? I agree, I can’t spend the 1500 bucks for the Amp.

[@josephhomen]

I'm very interested in seeing the chronograph results. Thank youfor your time,effort and money you spent making this video

[@josephhomen]

If I say pretty please will you tell us lol

[@glennjames1756]

Yes PLEASE POST THE CRONO RESULTS! The AMP was really good on the verticle except for the #10 shot. Horizontal can b wind. Flame had 2 high and the #5 low. Thanks so much for your efforts! This is Exactly the test i was wanting to do. I would also b interested in knowing how 10 pieces of brass that had been shot, say 3-4 times and never having been annealed would perform in the test.

[@TheOnlyTrueYeti]

To me it looks like two solid groups where the Flame has 3 flyers and the AMP has 4. But as you conclude more testing is needed.

[@Anon.Emouse]

If i can make a suggestion. Keep the cases in order from the loading block to the ammo tin to the shooting sequence so that you can correlate the individual AMP trace with the recorded shots. Also use your Lab Radar to record the velocity of each shot so you can add a further data point. Would be interesting to see what effect AMP Vs Flame has on ES and SD's and how that transfers to the target.

[@lifewithabe312]

Yes

[@rungun3982]

Thats what I thought he was going to do. What a waste of time and effort

[@CJ-ty8sv]

@@rungun3982 I think he was and just didn't add in that data in video. Key part there is the _"I think"_... I only say that because the first shot, Eric does mention the speed _"2796 was the speed"_ and to the best of my knowledge, the Silver Mountain E-Target system does not measure velocity so I am only concluding that he did have the lab radar setup and running.

[@rungun3982]

@@CJ-ty8sv thanks for that. Maybe he will include it in another vid 👍🏻

[@greatwhitenorth762]

Hmmm. I thought he did shoot the rounds in order (1 thru 10), but maybe not. I don't recall him specifying either way.

[@oskarandrividisson1153]

I love this kind of shooting science. I also know this is very time consuming so many thanks for taking the time to share this with us. With this small amount of difference in seating force I was not expecting this much difference in POI/elevation. It would have been very interesting to keep a record of each round, shoot at a target over chronograph like labradar or magnetospeed . Compere seating force, velocity and poi to see if this science can be applied to real world shooing results.

[@barrygrant2907]

Yes, more testing is called for. Make sure you grease the forearm nest time!

[@smoakngun]

That was just cold......real cold.

[@randelcaudle7435]

don't need grease, just try a used dryer sheet on fore end

[@nottellin1340]

First off Wow, and thanks for this. I greatly appreciate the time, resources and money that you have dedicated to this! With that said, Im gonna say the flame annealer had better results... bc I dont want to buy an AMP annealer and if I decide otherwise my wife is gonna be pissed lol. But seriously if you take that flyer away it looked like the flame group was a little tighter.

[@robertoaragon1506]

Thanks for sharing and keep up the good work. I appreciate your time in making these videos

[@byronjlittle]

Thank you for this I would love to see this done again with sorted bullets

[@Dwayne7834]

Good video and information. Very interesting. Waiting to see what you come up with in the next video. Thanks for the video. Always enjoy watching.

[@davidschmidt5810]

Do we think there are other factors affecting the loads outside of our ability to measure? I like your approach. Keep testing and educating us Eric.

[@ErikCortina]

There are tons of factors we can’t control, that’s why we should do our best to control the ones we can.

[@silentbob267]

Running the test multiple times or increasing the sample size should help average out the variables that can't be accounted for.

[@mikemabini6361]

Great video Erik! That's some good results from both minus the #5 flame. Hope you didn't forget your floor mat lmao 😂 Thanks for sharing your time.

[@ShootingAndReloading]

Very interesting! Did you shoot them in the same order as loading - i.e. is there a correlation between loading pressures "outliers" and "fliers" on target?

[@ronnydowdy7432]

I thank you for your time and sharing with us. This test I think does show AMP is better. That being said I would think this test actually raises some more questions that are probably racing around in you're head. Thanks again for spending money for your and our education.

[@don_sharon]

For me this test was inconclusive. It also tells me that his flame annealing process is effective given the experience he has had with it. If I were doing this test, the AMP might really shine given I don't flame anneal or have any experience with it. This test would not lead me to run out and get an AMP.

[@donjohnson8649]

Interesting comparison and I like your methodology...and from what I'm seeing so far it looks like I should be happy with my choice to buy (with a buddy--1/2 each) an AMP annealler. BTW, I am just TOTALLY jealous of your ability to shoot those kind of groups at that distance. Now I know why I've seen you multiple times at the BSW event standing in front of the crowd accepting a trophy while I sat in the audience!! I just can't do that any more now that I'm in my mid 70s, but I still have fun shooting and hear from younger shooters all the time saying "I sure hope that I can still do it like you do it at your age." I THINK that is a compliment, but I'm not too sure!

[@wayne6148]

Fantastic video series. The flame group seems to be outside of your normal expected group size for that rifle, based on previous videos. I assume previous load dev has been done with flame, so it would be expected to shoot tighter than that? If so what was the difference in process this time - no bullet sorting?

[@noneofabove5586]

Nice comparison ! Keep up the excellant work. I would really enjoy you as a mentor. Videos like these have brought back my desire to shoot long range.

[@ErikCortina]

Well, I can be your virtual mentor. :) www.Patreon.com/ErikCortina

[@justinvandee2008]

Well, glass half full, now we can get to see what tipping and sorting bullets do at 1050. Cheers and thanks for doing these videos..

[@aaron.from.winchester6744]

When in doubt, Trust the target. For me personally, it seems like a lot of extra money spent for such a little gain. But I don’t compete so what do I know.

[@javiersp01]

Thank you Erik !

[@Chris-Garrod]

Hi Erik, I am a keen fan and enjoy your no-nonsense vids from a pro. I’m relatively new to reloading and was wondering when you get a spare second could you please list your reloading procedures after you have shot. IE 1) Decap, 2) Anneal, 3) Clean 4) Resize. Thanks Chris.

[@daviddale3624]

Thank you. Does the shot marker have a setting to tell you exactly how far from absolute center? Seems like the one that produces the lowest number (that is fm exact center) would be the winner.

[@neilharris4462]

Did you happen to brush the inside of the necks after the annealing? I've noticed much more consistent and easier seating after doing so with the AMP annealer. It seems to produce a bit of carbon residue during thr annealing process.

[@aussiesteveakastevecallagh2280]

Hey Erik Interesting test looking forward to the final result , the AMP should give you a better result from what I have read I guess it’s wait and see . Steve from Australia .

[@hbudsmalley6317]

Happy to see this follow up video. Looks like minor differences to me.

[@sherrypulec1449]

wondering if you anneal before or after sizing when starting off with new brass, or with any brass as far as that goes. maybe do a test of brass annealed before sizing and brass annealed after sizing to see witch is more consistant. interested in seeing those kind of results.

[@ozkiwioutdoors]

I would call that inconclusive, did you note which of the flame annealed had lower psi when seating ? if so where these the ones that shot low ? Keep up the vids always enjoy watching

[@bigrod0069]

wow. great shooting. i have hard time holding group like that at 1-2 hundred yards, awesome

[@robertlawrence833]

Do you do anything to the inside neck surface after annealing? I find flame annealing leaves a layer of charcoal'ed carbon that I remove and wonder if the results af AMP annealing offers the same? The charcoal'ed residue in the flame annealing approach my offer inconsistent static friction, i.e.. inconsistant start pressures. Or not. Just a thought.

[@GetMeThere1]

...and here's another thing I'd be very interested in seeing: Setting up a second electronic group measurer at 100 yards -- or maybe 200 yards. I'd LOVE to see a comparison of how a bullet is doing at 100-200 yards vs where that bullet ended up at a 1000 yards. If there was a poor correlation then the 1000 yard grouping is a result of something about the flight of the bullet past 100 yards -- which would be very interesting information, IMO.

[@TheMrMused]

What this demonstrates is that the more repeatable process is the better one. Same with your calipers. They may not be *accurate* to .0005, but they're *repeatable*. Accuracy can be dialed in if you're producing the same ammunition, round after round, as it goes through the reloading process.

[@michaelcrossman9692]

take those brass initially annealed with the flame method and anneal them with the AMP; and vice versa, ie., AMP annealed brass and now flame anneal them. Crossover study; In addition, while a picture tells a story, please publish your Vertical and Horizontal spreads from each batch of brass and methodology. Thank you for your videos, great stuff!

[@RatelLaw]

Thank you for sharing.

[@alaska1andy959]

Like your shooting mats.

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

As a mediocre short-range amateur, the lesson I took away from this is that the two methods are comparable in the field, and it takes the best of the best on a good day to tell them apart. Ideally this should be done indoors, on a clamped pressure barrel, with an instrumented range - but who has such a thing that reaches out to 1000+ yards?

[@onemanriflemaker3873]

I agree with that. Erik has a rail gun. Maybe a rail gun would be a better test bed platform.

[@wendellsullivent4028]

I did notice that you adjusted the first 1-3 cases when annealing that could contribute go possible neck tension issues shots 5&6 couldn't it or not? I also think your barrel could have gotten hotter I currently run the BS annealer and I'm interested in your thoughts if it is worth the expense. I shoot PRS and ELR comps. Keep up the good vids

[@ctech01]

Great video Sir. I can't wait to see the follow up video. In reality it could of been a difference between each case. Not the annealing that produced the differences on target at 1050 yds. What are your honest thoughts on it??? Give'um hell on the range Sir, I'm rooting for ya.

[@ErikCortina]

Flame had three shots “outside” the group, AMP only the last one. So consistently so far seems better with the AMP. Having said that, more testing to come to make sure.

[@timothyrichburg7331]

More testing please! I didn't see a huge difference that warrants spending that amount of money on the annealer, but then again, I'm not competing at your level. I am interested in the velocity, SD and ES. What are those numbers? Also, what are the odds that, but annealing methods require custom seating depths or tunning?

[@natinnh1]

Hi Erik - Love your videos - If you shot the cartridges in the same order as your checked the pressures - then you will find #5 and #6 of the flame broiled did plot 'weird' - Otherwise - Yes - Will have to re-visit - Appreciate you work -

[@justice1327]

I agree that’s why I suggested he laser engrave his brass to keep track of it and also he needs to keep track of the order he fires them in with his Labradar to get the velocity On each specific number of brass.

[@sruss14]

Thanks, Eric. I currently use the bench-source because it's faster (than the amp without the AMP mate) and more automated. I know you can buy the AMP mate for $449 (by that point you're $2K into annealing). Do you think it is worth $2K to upgrade to AMP?

[@DanielBoone337]

This was very interesting either way... I just started messing with annealing and it just seems to make things more consistent. My shoulder bump is more consistent and I get tighter ES/SD numbers compared to brass I haven't annealed. There's no way I can justify buying any of this but I can justify buying something like an Annealeez type of machine and that alone will give me more consistency then the drill and propane torch I'm using now. LOL I would love to see more comparisons between both but obviously they're both very good considering you've won competitions using both. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!

[@Michael-rg7mx]

I learned to anneal back in the 70's. I would put the cases in a sauce pan. Fill with water to the top of the body. Then go to work with a torch. Dull glow. The water keeps you from doing too much. Before I quit I would look them over and spot touch up.

[@DanielBoone337]

@@Michael-rg7mx never thought of doing it that way before...

[@willemrossouw529]

FFS you are a good shot! even using both no 10 shots and 5 from the flame and 7 from the amp, it is still a tight group for the distance

[@ErikCortina]

Thank you. :)

[@thinkfirst6431]

I think that your hardness tester showed some cases in the flame annealer batch that should have been regulated to a different shooting lot. That is the problem with a fixed batch, no flexibility that you would have with a 50 piece box to mix and match. That maybe the flaw in your testing. You might test two batches, one of each picked from 20-50 candidates, picked for the same hardness, to see if there is a difference. Then, depending on the results, you could go +- 1 hardness, +- 2 hardness etc to see what the break point is.

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

The work flow is nicer with the flame unit... results are very similar... both seem to work fine. Basis for choice ought to come down to just preference and price then.

[@johnkaraphillis754]

Definitely enjoyed video. At this point fair to say close. But to a hunter/shooter is the 1K difference in cost worth the money? If I had surplus of disposable income would be amp. But for me, flame due to $ since I’m no competitive shooter. Your videos are informative and helpful. Thanks

[@CHIBA280CRV]

Thanks Erik for doing the testing on the issue of flame vs amp annealing .. I have a flame annealer and would like to purchase the Amp unit , but you make it look like the flame is just as good as the amp.., also any chance to send the flame units in to be tested ? Thanks señor will keep checking for further information on your channel..👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@terrycole7753]

I'd like to see the same test with the AMP vs Little Annie. I know the AMP is going to be easier & probably a better annealing point but curious if there's any difference in consistency between them. I like the AMP & would love to have one but my budget might not forgive me for the AMP..

[@AP2020_Outdoors]

@Erik Cortina, the varying seating force is a direct result of inconsistent neck "compression" I say compression as opposed to tension in that the neck is COMPRESSING on the bullet per say! Now, back to these varying forces = at a high level discussion, just imagine the neck internal diameter has varying diameters as you travel downwards from the case mouth towards the final seating depth. yes, there is a difference. But is it match accuracy difference??? Not sure! btw, great video as always! If I, as a fastidious engineer, could invent a device this is what I would design. A bullet pulling device which measures the amount of force necessary to "unseat" a bullet = that would show any inconsistencies in the brass neck, etc...

[@beres70]

It is not hard to do. Drill a hole across the upper part of the bullet and drag it out with that press applying some simple shiver rope system.

[@gorillamotors]

I see that you use the Silver Mountain E-Target system. Do you prefer that over Adam MacDonalds Shotmarker?

[@patricks7622]

Very interesting take on consistency there. Here's a newbie question, I suppose one should anneal after each time shooting 4 best consistency?

[@ErikCortina]

Correct. Anneal every time.

[@patricks7622]

@@ErikCortina thanks, fascinating stuff ))

[@jamesmooney5348]

Another cool test would be to shoot 3 to 4 time shot never annealed brass compared to the two annealers...

[@halo3zocker]

Hi, very interesting results. Do you have Tempilaq for tuning the "In-Flame Time" to a temperature? Now you are looking for a different coloring of the flame, which indicates according to some people an over-annealing effect. Maybe with the Tempilaq you could get near the results of the AMP?

[@silentbob267]

There are mixed opinions on the effectiveness of using Tempilaq to judge annealing temperature. I can't remember why some say not to use it but it seems like Erik has been using the same method to set his up for a long time and been happy with the results.

[@jeffsweeten3270]

Isn't there some degree of shooter error (in spite of your excellent shooting) that would make the flame annealer a bit tighter?

[@styrbjornhaaber5702]

But I really love the time and effort that you put into analyzing the data.

[@davepartlow6430]

Thanks Erik. With what I've seen there's no justification for me to spend the extra $$ for an AMP annealer. Both groups are impressive. Let's see what happens if you try this again. Another poster mentioned keeping the load in order from loading and using your LabRadar to see if there is any correlation with bullet seating pressure. I agree.

[@ErikCortina]

That’s adding too much noise to the test. I don’t trust chronograph to be 100% accurate.

[@joequixotic3039]

@@ErikCortina well if it doesn't correlate you could ignore it as noise but data you don't collect never helps you...

[@ErikCortina]

At the end of the day, all that matters is the target.

[@joequixotic3039]

@@ErikCortina one thing I strongly believe is when you take an optimized system and start changing one variable, you have to change at least one other variable to find a new optimization. If you can make your seating pressure more consistent, that is probably good even if you get bigger groups because there is probably another variable you can tweak to bring your groups back in, probably tighter than before.

[@backnine]

Have run similar test at 600. I have been flame annealing. My friend has the Amp. We did similar test and I can not justify the expense to switch over. We found consistent OAL and sizing .002 max neck under finish neck ID gave us more accuracy. We are not at your level but we no how to shoot. Keep up the good work. We appreciate your efforts.

[@ewathoughts8476]

It seems you are using light neck tension as your scale is 0 to about 50#. Some videos I have seen are with much higher seating forces as their scale is showing up to 175#, with a huge initial seating start bump that falls and then rises to levels that seem extreme. It would be interesting to see if a small increase in neck tension has an affect of the frequency of fliers, and if the seating slope is more even without all the ups and downs.

[@claytonpegram6035]

Thanks for all help have been watching here and there for a few years.Just now starting to buy equipment mainly because of money and availability.I do have a Question now you have the amp Would you be willing to sell the bench mark flame anneler

[@jamesmooney5348]

Be interesting if the flame ones, if the lower crimp pressure on the press, matches the flyers?

[@SDMacMan]

Just wondering if you weight matched brass and bullets?. I know its tedious, but necessary for best results. Keep it going! 👍

[@ErikCortina]

No, I don’t weight sort brass now Bullets.

[@johannesjohannesson423]

Wind direction would be good to know for this groubs? Flame is more vertical. AMP is more like a right to left wind had been there? Thank you for this video.

[@ErikCortina]

I was alternating the shots.

[@RWeeks-hx9ut]

Of subject of the video, but this is the first time I guess I really noticed you removing your brass from the action after firing. Does your bolt not have an ejector or did you remove it? On subject of the video, as a wanna be long range shooter I agree with Ensign Cthulhu; both groups look comparable to me and at that distance I would be happy with either even with the vertical in the flame annealed.

[@ErikCortina]

The vertical on the flame would have cost me a point. Not a good thing in competition.

[@ErikCortina]

I don’t use ejectors in my F-Class actions.

[@stevenanderson236]

Where did you get those amazing ammo boxes?

[@VeritasOmniaVincit176]

Seems to me there’s more vertical spread on the flame group. Could be explained with different neck tensions.

[@jaredmickel9970]

Your Flame graphs had 3 low outlier plots. Maybe those are your fliers. Maybe sort the 10 rounds based on how they group on the press and see if the press outliers become target outliers.

[@crewchief47]

Yep, I think you need to pull the press force traces for each of your fliers and compare them to the non-fliers to see if there's a pattern, and not just in the max PSI either.

[@Anon.Emouse]

Was going the say the same thing.

[@jaredmickel9970]

The other thing to consider is that maybe curves that have major deflections (which suggest the bullet is sticking for a moment, releasing, sticking again, releasing, etc)is indicative of an out of spec case, out of spec bullet, both, and that maybe some damage/deformation is occurring. You could sort the “too wavy” curves by eye or you could fit them to a linear equation and sort the the “R-squared” of the curve fit.

[@j-sincopeytargetsmasher3781]

This didn’t really sell me on this .. I think if you know what your doing the flame annealer is just as good..

[@alabamaoutdoors4468]

Ruger American 223 , 3/4 to right on the first shot following shots bullseye , factory stock free floated ! Any suggestions ??

[@Bodhi1satva]

At what point is the used brass cleaned and by which process, wet or dry?

[@killerfungis]

I would like to see how some of the NRA high power folks are loading...know any of the champs? (comparative analysis) Maybe Elsenboss has some pointers : )

[@silentbob267]

Erik, it is well known that ambient temperature affects the burn rate of powder or at least the velocity achieved with it. One thing that has always bugged me is when a cartridge is loaded into a barrel that is heating up from shooting, does the barrel temperature and the time the cartridge is exposed to it before setting it off not affect the burn rate or velocity? If so how much does it affect it and if it has a drastic effect is there any practical way to mitigate it?

[@no-sway3709]

It definitely does, and I was taught to keep the bolt open until I find the target for prs type stuff. It's for safety too, but I figured I'd throw my $.02.

[@silentbob267]

@@no-sway3709 Thanks. It is something I have always wondered about but not been able to find any solid information on.

[@victorrichardson3027]

The friction of the Bullet exiting the case should be much more important than seating friction but in any case it should be a tiny fraction of the friction of rifling being engraved into the bullet. G. David Tubb measures and sorts by seating force but also mitigates variances with hexagonal boron nitride on his bullets.

[@Terry80801]

Mathematically speaking hooks law say the force in is equal to the force out. So if you take 38psi to get it in, it will take at least that to get it out. The correlation should be close if not out right the same. Just a thought from a more mathematical stand point.

[@johnclause765]

Look at column 4 and 10 psi where the lines bundle together and compare the difference between Flame and Amp. What is happening at that point that the two differ so much?

[@DimaProk]

What kind of front rest is that in the front?

[@Elkblood01]

My only curiosity is your graphs compared to some others I have watched testing the press and annealer is your graphs through the whole sequence seemed to be way more sporadic than other I have seen. Just a curiosity. Not trying insult. Just something I noticed. Thanks for the video.

[@bigwyomingadventures5908]

Do you normally sort on seating pressure? Was the seating pressure varied enough to sort? Thanks for what you do. Patreon incoming!

[@ErikCortina]

I didn’t sort these by pressure but I did sort my competition ammo. I will test that later.

[@10dannyp89]

Would you sort based on overall pressure or on the fit of the pressure trace line in the group and cull the outliers?

[@ErikCortina]

Not sure yet.

[@sidekickbob7227]

@@ErikCortina I wonder if the flame annealed cartridge with the weird seating pressure was one of the "flyers"? Another question to be raised are about the consistency of the press itself. I don't understand why you get the steps on the raising part of the graph... Good technical video. Keep them coming👍

[@bigwyomingadventures5908]

@@ErikCortina What I'm getting at, is I just bought a Benchsource and I'm not sure if I can take it when you tell me it sucks!

[@robinepps7274]

Just curious why you didn't fire them separately! Say the flame string first then the Amp or vice versa?

[@ErikCortina]

I wanted to keep things as evenly as possible. For example, last two shots landed high. That indicates that it was possibly a wind condition, so those two shots can get thrown out of the test. However, by doing that, the flame annealing looks even worse compared to the AMP.

[@acekruger1708]

Look at the group pattern they look similar One is at 10&5 The other is 12&6 Maybe different twist pattern because of the heat differences Just a thought Maybe have to pick on and stick with it

[@GetMeThere1]

What I would be interested in knowing is a comparison between the distance from the mean of an individual cartridge among the bullet seating pressures AND the distance from the mean of an individual cartridge among the target hits. So, is there a correlation between a "weird" bullet seating graph line and a "flier" on the target? If there's no correlation between the individual graph lines and how well that cartridge shot, then the graph lines (i.e., the record of the forces involved in seating the bullet) are not important. An example, If you take five cartridges and really polish up the inside surface of the neck before seating, and another five and don't touch the neck, you should get an appearance of two distinct groups -- AND two distinct sets of seating pressures graph lines. If you don't, then those graph lines aren't really telling you anything very important. As for me, lol, I'm just a retired scientist -- and it's been almost 50 years since I reloaded a cartridge, lol. You have a RICH set of data, but you have to go about analyzing it in a sophisticated manner. You were wise to engrave the cases -- and if you shoot them in order you can directly compare a graph line (as long as you know which is which) to a target result. If the comparison shows no correlations then you have to look for another factor to measure -- eccentricity of seating, perhaps.

[@michaelschmit9470]

Makes me wonder if you culled out the highest and the lowest loading pressure say 30% off the bottom and 30% off the top if that would show a difference I appreciate you sharing your information a lot of shooters would keep it to themselves. Also I understand that your time is limited but I really would appreciate it if you could share your complete reloading process. It's why I started watching you.

[@ErikCortina]

My reloading process is on Patreon. www.patreon.com/ErikCortina

[@michaelschmit9470]

@@ErikCortina yes I know. If it was a one time thing I would be more interested. But I really don't care to sign up for patreon and have it ding my credit card every month. But thank you

[@nathanwarner4333]

Good info

[@ewetho]

Anneal for another 1/2 second on the flame before the rest of the processing. See if that gets rid of the fliers….

[@lifewithabe312]

Most probably will

[@greatwhitenorth762]

It would be interesting to go back and look at your seating data, in particular for the flame annealed cases, and see what the psi reading was for #5 and #6. And maybe #10 as well but like you said Erik, those last 2 flyers (one for flame and one for AMP) may have been due to barrel getting hot.

[@hosoiarchives4858]

Cortina is the man

[@crabmansteve6844]

I know this isn't the point of the video, but that is a beautiful stock. I'm usually not a fan of fiberglass stocks, but that one is gorgeous.

[@genedavis759]

What was the amp annealers group size ?

[@Mr257weatherby]

What were the E.S. for each?

[@TubeDobs]

How about wind conditions

[@mikebrinlee780]

Of the subject sorry but what rear bag are you shooting

[@ErikCortina]

Edgewood

[@richardbriscoe8563]

Are you lubing the inside of the case necks after annealing? If so, are you using graphite, moly, motor mica or what? The differences in the curves made me wonder if there were either variations in the anneal over the length of the case neck or some slight variation in the neck thickness. The range of variation of maximum seating pressure isn’t that great for most of them (flame annealed). [Edit] We’re you comparing velocity for each shot with its seating pressure curve to see if anything stands out about the flame flyers?

[@kennethromero5765]

Why not check the hardness before and after annealing , just thinking out loud

[@jamesklink4698]

Erik : definitely needs more testing! Would you like to coordinate the seating pressures with the flyers from both groups? Keep up the good work JP\out

[@JerrBearTactical]

Awesome 😉👍

[@brettinnj]

What about the ES?

[@VmaxBR549]

HUM the flame had 3 outlyers but the amp had 4 outlyers so it seemed the flame was better ??? I also suggest you always keep the data in accending order of 1-10 to see how the load data compared to the shoot data . If the load data show a flyer do es the shoot data confirm that as well ?? (;-) TP

[@ErikCortina]

4 outliers? Idk what you call an outlier. Keep in mind this is 1050 yards.

[@graynotescartridgebox]

For the most part, seemed the flame looked better minus the flyers. Makes one wonder if the flyers were because of the flame or something else…

[@ErikCortina]

The issue with competition is that they also count the flyers. 😁

[@graynotescartridgebox]

@@ErikCortina lol nah you just gotta convince them! I just wonder if something else was causing them other than flame.

[@longbow6245]

As a control for this test shouldn't each piece of brass from the same lot be sorted, and prepped all the same way as new first. The seating pressure graph for each new unfired case should be recorded as the benchmark. After each subsequent firing and annealing process the bullet seating pressure graph of each individual case can be compared to see how close it stays to the original seating pressure across a predetermined amount of firings. Isn't the group size really irrelevant to the question does the AMP annealed brass have more consistent neck tension than the Flame annealed brass? I think measuring the group sizes can be misleading and not the way to answer the question of which annealing method is more consistent. The rabbit hole of all this stuff is a bottomless pit of despair in my opinion. Kudos to Erik for attempting it.

[@ericabig3471]

Erik, You stated that the AMP press was recording psi, lbf per square inch. That is pounds force divided by and area in square inches. I don’t believe that is true, maybe I’m wrong and correct me please. I believe the AMP press uses a load cell, that measures force only based on my Mechanical Engineering career for 38 years before my retirement. Maybe I’m wrong, and please correct me. I’m always trying to learn more.

[@ErikCortina]

I’m just a trigger puller. So I don’t know precisely how or what it measures. All I know is that it’s a number that I use to sort ammo by. 🤷‍♂️😁

[@ericabig3471]

Erik, you are way past being just a trigger puller!!! You are an awesome hand loader of ammunition for your specific marksman class of competition!!! Please know I greatly appreciate your contributions to the shooting sports. I think you are awesome, knowledge is an ever growing experience if we accept change and embrace it when it fits us.

[@ErikCortina]

Thank you.

[@ericabig3471]

There are many reasons to anneal brass, one is to provide a consistent material property called “Young’s Modulus” (E symbol). This is the slope of a material’s stress / stain curve (lab. Measurement). It helps explain elastic and plastic behavior of a material. One benefit of annealing is to maintain elastic material behavior that will hopefully produce more consistent “gripping force” of the case neck on the bullet bearing surface. I hear only negative comments concerning crimping of bullets to provide consistent bullet release force when fired. Especially from competitive target marksman. I ask why? Based on what I have found on the WEB bullet crimping is very subjective with very little measurable analysis is applied during the crimp die setup? I am experimenting with Lee Factory Crimp dies to better provide a measurable die setup technique. They are collet dies with four “fingers” and have gaps (between the fingers) that can be measured with feeler gauges when the die is adjusted up or down from the shell holder. That potentially provides a measurable and recordable number to be applied to a hand load group for evaluation and potentially allows for consistent die setup and verification for dies previously locked down by a nut or holder. What do you think? I have not seen any information that describes this type of crimp die setup.

[@johnsimonelli9988]

I watched your video when you shot that one inch group at 1000 yards.....Did you flame anneal that brass? if so there must be other factors. Very interesting stuff. I always enjoy your content.

[@ErikCortina]

I did, but it was very new brass, so it was soft. Proper annealing keeps it consistent for the life of the brass.

[@darylthompson5071]

As always outstanding. What are you thoughts about salt bath annealing. For us poors .lol thanks for the great videos

[@clapton924]

IMO the groups look comparable. Different shape, similar size. As noted, more testing is needed. For most, I don't think the AMP groups are going to be $1200 better than a flame annealer. The AMP may make sense for top competitors looking to that 1% edge.