Espresso Machine Comparison: Dual Boiler vs Heat Exchanger

Profitec Pro 300: clivecoffee.com/products/prof...
ECM Mechanika V Slim: clivecoffee.com/products/ecm-...
Also in this video:
Eureka Mignon Silenzio espresso grinder: clivecoffee.com/products/eure...
Baratza Sette 270 espresso grinder: clivecoffee.com/products/bara...
Acaia Lunar Coffee Scale: clivecoffee.com/products/acai...
notNeutral Vero Cortado glass: clivecoffee.com/products/notn...
Subscribe to our channel: kzbin.info...
Instagram: / clivecoffee
Twitter: / clivecoffee
Facebook: / clivecoffeepdx
Pinterest: / clivecoffee

[@IcemanYVR]

Thank you, one of the best videos I've seen talking about the advantages of the Pro 300 (y)

[@xxxrossomaticxxx]

Ive had the synchronika for over a year now, have made 1200 coffees with that baby and 0 issues so far works flawlessly

[@aloutsis]

Is nobody going to address the fact that Joseph Gordon-Levitt gives excellent espresso-related tutorials? Nevertheless, great comparison between the 2 machines, quick, short and insightful.

[@clivecoffee]

Thanks!

[@deutschehassan7296]

I want power and precision but I don't have enough money to get any of them.

[@danman281]

Always good explanation

[@LuckyDragon289]

Synchronika owner here! I wanted the best of both worlds 😊

[@gigi9467]

LuckyDragon hell Yea! Me too

[@ahmadhusaini8420]

@THE FUHRER IS ALIVE i just ordered bdb. How do u liking it? Ever try the flow profiling with your bdb yet?

[@enz6295]

I was torn between appartamento and pro 300 and finally got the pro 300

[@bobh207]

Have you done a Scace measurement to compare the temp stability during a shot to compare the 2 machines? Thanks

[@mikerichards5610]

Very informative.

[@infoltl4397]

Can you repeat the three machines that you mentioned at the end that offers both precision and power?

[@ErnstBolder]

this helps a lot , thanks! f

[@clivecoffee]

Thank you!

[@jaychu3850]

What about vs a heat exchanger with PID?

[@rxonmymind8362]

Just my wife and I. So definitely a machine like the Profitec would suffice. Right now I have a Delonghi ecp3420 basic $135 machine that is now pulling some good shots. Happy. Wife is willing to upgrade me on my birthday. Yay. Doing a ton of research right now.

[@clivecoffee]

Reach out to us if you have any questions!

[@gigi9467]

I got the ecm synchronika after years of going thru the rancilios And the profitec hx and i ahould of just bought the syn and saved the hassle haha

[@SammyEatsYourBrain99]

the profitec aint even a hx lmao

[@gigi9467]

@@SammyEatsYourBrain99 depends which.

[@TheGizmoGarage]

I can only afford a Gaggia Classic Pro, and I am glad I didn't pour extra money down the drain just to be able to make espresso faster for more people, or for only slightly smoother taste, without adding milk. I bought a Ceado grinder instead, and I think it's way more important to have a great grinder than a faster espresso machine.

[@gigi9467]

Li Fan tru bout the grinder but just wait you will in the dual boiler crowd as soon as ur finances let u

[@TheGizmoGarage]

@@gigi9467 true word.

[@mannyr8795]

Duuuuude I’ve seen your videos, your fiancee or maybe wife has you by the collar 😂😂😂😂 I have a Gaggia and went with a great grinder but man, at some point I know I’ll want to upgrade, and I’m not talking about a bs upgrade to a GO, I’m taking about a synchronika, a Rocket, Bianca, etc. the more down the espresso rabbit hole you go (and you’ve gone down just like me), you’ll be doing a real upgrade at some point 😂

[@TheGizmoGarage]

@@mannyr8795 Yep, I've been eyeing a Heat Exchanger now, again a compromise between heatup speed and cost.

[@sc-tz2jq]

Is there a showroom or dealer in MD/DC/VA area where I can actually see the Pro 300? It would be nice to see it in person or even better in action if doable.

[@Todd.T]

Appartamento has no PID....

[@asjeot]

Of these machines, which would be the more suited choice to produce two flat whites each morning and to pump out milk coffees for groups of up to 10 people 'quickly'?

[@clivecoffee]

If it were just the flat whites I might recommend the Pro 300, but if you're looking to serve groups of 10 you'll likely want to go for the Mechanika. Its large steam boiler will easily facilitate making that many milk drinks in succession. The Pro 300's modest .75L steam boiler will hold you up, requiring time to recuperate after a few drinks. - Charles

[@imsooopoor]

what about heat exchanger with PID like the rocket Giotto? are those any good?

[@clivecoffee]

I've got just the video for you kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZmTcmtsbdaoY5o - Charles

[@MrArdytube]

Isn’t the Profitec pro 500 now available with PID that keeps a stable brew temp and has more capacity for those who need it?

[@clivecoffee]

You're correct! We made a full video discussing the benefits of PIDs on HX machines here, which focusses on the Pro 500. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZmTcmtsbdaoY5o - Charles

[@sommelierfactory2640]

I'm looking to buy a machine, I won't be needing to provide steam power for any more than 2 or 3 lattes at a time...and anticipate half of my usage to be for straight espresso/americano. So I don't necessarily need a huge steam boiler. With that said, i want an exposed E61 because I want something with pressure profiling/flow control. At the moment those seem to be Profitec, ECM, and Lelit. The profitec pro 500 seems to be the obvious choice for budget reasons...but am I going to be let down by the temperature stability? I don't want to be lacking control in my espresso, as my milk drinks will still be fairly espresso focused (cortado, etc). Should I just suck it up and get the pro 600? Lelit Bianca? Which one has better PID control.

[@roblucchetti2993]

both have brew/boil PID but Bianca has flow control and a rotary pump so it can be hard-plumbed to a water line. The most control of the three you mentioned is the Bianca; it costs more, but i ultimately stretched for it because of the better pump, flow control, softener filter and accessories - all of which add substantial cost after purchase.

[@painpeace3619]

I am poor what should I buy

[@asselinpower]

A lot of good information in this video, good job...I m still not sure between a pro 300 or an Appartamento....

[@flavouredwithcice]

Have you made your decision by now?

[@asselinpower]

flavouredwithcice actually , I bought a Spaziale mini Vivaldi II and had to return it, I ordered a Breville Dual Boiler which was 1000$ cheaper and I absolutely love it .

[@asselinpower]

brighton rock it is absolutely fantastic for the price. Ascaso is releasing a machine called the Baby T soon. It looks absolutely stunning. You can check on their site. However it will cost at least double. The Breville is unbeatable for the price .

[@asselinpower]

brighton rock Canada

[@ahmadhusaini8420]

@@asselinpower baby T is beautiful, is it double boiler?

[@fredjones6975]

considering the ECM Special Edition Classika PID vs the Profitec Pro 400...any thoughts to help make the decision?

[@clivecoffee]

I would recommend reaching out to our CX team via our chat on our website, email us at [e-mail] or call us at [phone]

[@badluckjames9609]

Well, how about dual boilers that are configured for sequential heating? It seem some machines that are configured for simultaneous heating on the 220v with about 2250w and configured for sequential heating for the US market and its 110V power. Hows their efficiency and power compared to HX and simultaneous dual boiler systems?

[@clivecoffee]

110-115v machines alternate power during use. It doesn't really have that much bearing in the home setting as it would on a coffee cart or in a cafe. We don't sell 220v machines.

[@MatoDuris]

If I'me more into "precision"...does it mean, that any PID machine, regardless of it being 2boiler or heat exchanger will be "precise"?

[@koplandavid]

Same Q here.

[@makaw2006]

Just thinking out loud here, I believe neither of these systems are precise enough. AFAIK HX with pid will measure and adjust the temp/pressure at boiler. Then when you pull your shot cold water will run through and change the brew temperature, you don't have a precise control over it, it just gives you a room to experiment. If boiler is big then you can't really compensate for fluctuations fast enough. Also when you reduce the temperature and pressure of the steam inside boiler your steaming process will be affected. Maybe ideal design is, adjusting/measuring the brew temperature at brew head with active heating/cooling element at the head.

[@clivecoffee]

A dual boiler with PID will invariably be more precise than an HX with a PID. That gap is smaller than ever with machines like the Profitec Pro 500 PID which very nearly gives you the best of both worlds in a heat exchanger design. I highly recommend checking out this video for more info: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZmTcmtsbdaoY5o - Charles

[@hizkiakumaat2206]

@@makaw2006 my question about heat exchanger machine is, how does the new water from water source can heat up so fast in only a few seconds to reach the brewing temperature when we pull a shot of espresso? Because when we pull a shot of espresso in hx machine, the new water from water source mix with the water that already circulates from hx tube to grouphead then back again to hx tube, which mean the temperature of the water that already circulates decreases because of it mixes with new water from water source when we pull a shot. How it heats up so fast?

[@makaw2006]

​@@hizkiakumaat2206 My take is cold water from tank is used to cool down the water in the HX passing the boiler while moving to brew head. So, water should already be near 100 degrees if you give enough time for machine to heat up (pipe passing through boiler is very close to heating element). When you do the flush, you get rid off the extra hot water.

[@PanzerIV88]

Umm but what about Heat Exchanger WITH a PID, versus a Dual Boiler that also have a PID???

[@clivecoffee]

We don't have a video on that specific topic (though, we might have to steal that idea) but we do have this video which outlines the benefits and limitations of PIDs on HX machines which, when combined with what you learned in this video, should answer your question. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZmTcmtsbdaoY5o - Charles

[@roblucchetti2993]

The catch there is that you can only really regulate the steam boiler since that's what actually heats the brew water. It won't be as precise as a dedicated brew boiler PID, but it can get you close enough.

[@bartjanremers]

Profitec 600 inside

[@ping415]

Dose Profitec Pro700 have both powders?

[@clivecoffee]

Sorry, not sure what powders you're referring to?

[@ping415]

@@clivecoffee omg sorry about the stupid typo I was trying to say power lol

[@michaelgibbonsbaristadude]

Hmmmm considering the faema e61 has one of the most stable water temperatures delivered from the group head using its thermosyphonic heat exchange system I would say this video is a little biased in its perspective

[@gigi9467]

michael gibbons u cant beat a pid on a dual boiler test after test my friend cant be beat as far as consistancy

[@michaelgibbonsbaristadude]

@@gigi9467 if you are going to cite test after test please post links of peer reviewed tests

[@gigi9467]

michael gibbons dont be lazy just google ill help u out and tell u what type go to google and type “pid test vs hx” very simple my friend

[@michaelgibbonsbaristadude]

@@gigi9467 🤣🤣🤣

[@michaelgibbonsbaristadude]

Not talking about standard hx but specifically faema e61. Not just the grouphead.

[@imjuan1674]

I'm thorn between getting a breville bes920 or rocket appartamento. Which one would be better since I got family and friends usually coming over the weekend. Need to serve about 10-15 ppl

[@timgerber5563]

If you want to make these quantities of milk based drinks, I would go for a dual boiler. I can‘t judge the breville, but as an appartamento owner I can tell you that I prefer the looks of the appartamento. However, if you make a couple of espressos back to back and are working the steam wand parallel to pulling shots, you will hit a wall with the rocket depending on how quickly you clean out and refill the portafilter.

[@clivecoffee]

Between those two machines, I'd absolutely recommend the Appartamento for two key reasons. First, its large 1.7L steam boiler will be able to deliver the kind of power you need to whip out 10-15 in short order. Second, the Appartamento is a much better long term investment, especially with heavy use. While Breville makes some pretty nice machines they use far more plastic components and are only able to be serviced by Breville themselves. A hand-built Italian machine like the Appartamento will last you a decade even if you treat it poorly, and a handful of decades with a little care. If you have any other questions I highly recommend getting in touch with our customer service team. They all have loads of experience on the Appartamento. clivecoffee.com/pages/contact - Charles

[@rameshadhikari7047]

Can you mention the prizes please...

[@_ALEX_089]

I Love my leilt Bianca

[@azimjamal9726]

Alex how is it? Planning to get one of it

[@_ALEX_089]

Azim Jamal in my Opinion better than rocket r58 and Ecm Synchronika.... It is a Monster there is nothing she can‘t do🤗

[@bsw78]

Looks like it has everything for the best price...dual boiler, PID, rotary pump and shot profiling for about half the price of a Linea mini!

[@_ALEX_089]

@@azimjamal9726 sorry a Little Bit Late but i am Berry happy with it 👍

[@khaledibnwaled]

Where does it fit here bialetti brikka?!

[@Wacomee]

You cant do a fair comparison if both machines does not have PID controller..

[@grodt88]

Profitec made in china? :)

[@clivecoffee]

Manufactured in Italy :)

[@kjeldschouten-lebbing6260]

Its important to know WHY the steam power is often higher on a boiler machine: Concurrancy and maximum power draw. Powerdraw on domestic machines is limited, which means for a given power consumption only a specific amount of steam can be produced. With boilers, they can heat both when you use them AND when you are not using them. Even in professional use, this is about 50% use vs non-use time, which means they can output twice as much steam power sustainably.

[@vladimirgoncharenko7545]

Heat exchanger all the way…

[@clivecoffee]

Nice! I'm on team dual-boiler.