Espresso Tamping Pressure | Does it Matter??

[@Max-wl5ll]

The decent was an amazing investment for the channel, great video! appreciate all the effort.

[@flamarlamb]

I really enjoyed the video. From experience I thought that tamping pressure, as long as it was adequate, didn’t need to be exact. This confirms my thoughts and added some new information I hadn’t considered. Excellent work!!

[@VespaRider2024]

This is a very informative video…. i was thinking of buying a calibrated tamper (Force tamper or Breville) to replace my precision VST tamper… thanks for saving me hundreds of dollars… I definitely tamp at over 25 pounds, and it sounds like consistency over that tamping pressure is not as important as the all marketing hype suggests…. Thank you again!

[@daRock1212]

If I could like this video twice I would. I've been having continued problems with early shot degradation on a Cafelat Robot. After this video, I think I've figured it out. Because I've been testing lighter beans, I've been tamping with much less pressure and preinfusing slowly and gently to 1 bar to (perhaps subconsciously) increase extraction. Based on your findings, I think the barely compacted puck has been expanding during my over-gentle preinfusion and then channeled during the shot. Being more deliberate with my tamp and then preinfusing to a quick 2 bar has brought back my more balanced, unchanneled shots that I seemed to have lost for a month. This is another case where Decent metrics really help understanding for the whole coffee community (and I'm this much closer to getting a Decent myself). Many thanks!

[@LifestyleLab_]

Awesome, thanks for sharing this! Great to hear this data helped you diagnose your shots :)

[@Boogie3D]

I do like your findings, but there is one thing that should be mentioned from a physics point of view. You explained nicely what is 9 bars or 130psi- those are both units of pressure, so force per area. Then you directly change to pounds of pressure, whereas you should say pounds of force.If you are pushing down the tamper with a specific force, the pressure is different depending on the size of the basket (for eg. 58 vs 51mm basket will have a difference of about 30%).

[@LifestyleLab_]

I decided not to convert to pounds from PSI to avoid over complicating the video for most people. If you listen closely, I say “130 pounds per square inch of surface area in the portafilter.” For those curious, it would be around 530lbs on the surface of a 58mm puck!🙂 P.S- Notice the little iron ring on my right pinky finger ;)

[@Taylor-xi2no]

He’s an engineer pretty sure he knows how pressure works

[@Boogie3D]

@@LifestyleLab_ I do understand your point, but still when I hear pressure I think units of pressure- Pascals/Bars/PSI. When I hear kilograms/pounds I think of mass or force (although Newtons would be more correct). I may just be a purist. Didn't know the meaning of iron ring- I think it is only a Canadian thing? It's good to learn new things everyday.

[@LifestyleLab_]

Ahh, you’re referring to when I said 20lbs of TAMPING pressure! Then yes, I suppose I did misspeak and should have said 20lbs of force 👍

[@dumkopf]

@UCQlrajwh3TB08bCoDBJLXDg it's common parlance to refer to PSI as "pounds"

[@vitriolicAmaranth]

I'd say that with a traditional (non-self-stabilizing) tamper, excessive pressure quickly becomes radically detrimental as it becomes more difficult to achieve an even tamp the more pressure you apply. So there is no potential benefit- But a lot of potential detriment from having one side of the puck unextracted and a thinner portion on the far side overextracted. (This is based on personal and extensive experience; My mentor taught me, and I taught those I trained, that something like 25-30 lbs of force on our 58mm filters was ideal, while in practice I found anything from about there to 50 lbs achieved similar results; Anything beyond that behaved unpredictably unless I carefully noted whether the tamper was tilted post-tamping, which is not something you have time for in a busy professional setting. No point risking a bad shot for no potential gain. My stated weights are potentially inaccurate and done by feel, based on perceived ratios of my bodyweight and unrelated experimentation with scales.)

[@Bernard-p5y]

Just watched this today. Finally, I undertand tamping. Brilliant discourse. I'm going to save this one and rewatch everytime I think about buying a Force Tamper or Puqpress. A decent self leveling tamper should suffice for most of us unless you got a loota cash. Thank you!!!

[@macmutant]

What a great video! This and the shot timing video are very helpful for considering equipment and workflow as a less-experienced home barista. Thank you!

[@Toss3]

this was really interesting - thank you! Would be cool to know if one could compensate for the lower tamping pressure by reducing the grind size!

[@purplemonkeyelephant]

I came to this video because sometimes my shots are fine and sometimes they drip, despite what I would think was similar puck prep. I figured I was over-tamping sometimes, but now I'm wondering if the grind is too fine or whether my cheaper machine just isn't producing consistent pressure from the pump.

[@Kikis_Bread]

I'd be very interested in a follow up to this video, namely addressing - - The recipe of the espresso being used, (1:1) / (1:2) / (1:3). Perhaps tamping harder on shorter espresso's (i.e finely ground espresso pucks) is more detrimental than longer espresso's? - The end yield (g) of the espresso from each of the tamping pressures. - The subjective taste of the shots. I believe the interesting take away from this experiment is the difference between 25lbs and 35lbs. You state there isn't a significant difference in the flow rate, but I do see a statistically significant difference in the start of the extraction. Not only that, but the 35lb shot is ~1-1.5 second longer than the 25lb shot, this could lead to 2-5grams more espresso yield depending on flow rate. Regardless, interesting! More people need to delve into tamping pressure, it's shocking how little information is out there.

[@radiantav]

This is good research with results that are agreeable with my practice from last 4 years. Multiple times I missed to tamp after using OCD-like leveling tool. Water went through it quickly. But even a modest tamp was enough to sustain water for coffee. Modest as in - overstuffed basket with OCD leveling tool pushing coffee down

[@jamieleite3544]

Very informative video, as always. From your video, shot times really don't change much after 20lbs of tamping pressure, likely due to the puck being too dense to absorb the pre-infusion water. It does make me wonder what value pre-infusion provides once a puck is sufficiently tamped. Do you have any thoughts on this?

[@Chevovish]

Loving the series so far! Very informative.

[@chucklemasters6433]

videos like this one and some experimenting on your own machine are the keys to figuring this home espresso thing out. just don't get stuck on one setting or grind or tamping method. play around a bit and you learn a lot even if you have to dump some down the drain while you learned what NOT to do. i've been roasting at home since 2000. there is just as much to learn about that as there is about extraction methods. sure is a lot of fun though!

[@dumkopf]

An old friend of mine summed it up nicely: Push until the coffee pushes back. i.e. it doesn't matter what force you use so long as you feel that push back.

[@LifestyleLab_]

Yes! I’ve always liked that explanation, should have said it in the video :)

[@ericpeterson9110]

I think that explanation makes the most sense from an engineering perspective. During the start of the tamp the coffee wont push back because all of the movement is due to the particles rearranging into a more compact structure, reducing the void ratio. Past a certain point the particles cant be arranged any tighter and so any additional movement is elastic, you push down and the puck pushes back.

[@kilojeire2011]

brilliant video on tamping! so no need to adjust my tamping pressure. thanks for this!

[@apurbabanik1993]

Thanks for the info, it really helped me understand the mistake that I was doing

[@Persason]

Fantastic video short, concise and to the point. Just please remember that the majority of the world uses kilograms so having kg written in parenthesis beside pounds when pounds gets thrown around helps alot.

[@reantan6165]

such great video, but does that mean its better to leave out preinfusion? or preinfusion is better without high pressure tamping if it was going to be incorporated? anyways thanks for a great video

[@louisd95714]

Very interesting observations! As for me I currently use a calibrated tamper to reduce as many variables as possible.

[@taliluvhengo5928]

Love those. Game changer.

[@awint123]

Great break down, I offen wonder if I am tamping with enough pressure for my longer than normal per-infusion. This is grounding so I can be more intentional when tamping

[@WesternExpanses]

Great video. Good technical rigor. I had always wondered. Thank you.

[@229glock]

Decent is an astonishingly great machine.

[@annw-fitz4412]

What I hoped was covered because I’m a novice is how do you know how much pressure you are applying if you don’t have an expensive machine to tamp your coffee?

[@LifestyleLab_]

The exact same concepts apply regardless of machine price. The only DIFFERENCE will be if you’re using a pressurized filter basket. In that case tamping pressure becomes less important, and you’ll want to tamp lighter to avoid choking the machine

[@naamheenanamikus1035]

This was very useful. I am new into espresso, and I am glad to know what I should be focussing on while tamping.

[@mario08133]

Thanks for answering that one as scientifically as you can

[@wonderifwonderif]

This is an eye opening myth buster video, thanks. I wonder how the pressure over 35lbs would impact (45,55lbs). Would it start to clog the flow at some point? If the higher pressure tamping doesn't impact the flow, we can tamp pretty hard without worrying about "overtamping."

[@Andrew-wp1bz]

You can’t overtamp a puck. You essentially reach a maximum density where the puck won’t compact any further.

[@johnchardine1886]

Really excellent test and result!

[@Anthony_DP]

Keep up the good work man and the subs will continue 🙌💪

[@garnettbrown]

How did the coffee taste with the different tamping pressures?

[@P4trickSensei]

Very interesting and informative!

[@jclokwork]

Great breakdown and explanation.

[@MrJusmobile]

Believe it or not the only variable which when removed showed any recognizable difference in the shot was the WDT!!!!!! I know it's hard to believe!!

[@ritzyeow]

Great content. You have a sub!

[@chucklemasters6433]

the ECM machine i just got came with a naked portafilter (bottomless) had a lot of trouble getting the grind fine enough to get any pressure. went to the regular portafilter and had way too much pressure. am very happy with the regular portafilter and the ECM machine. also love my coffee distribution tool. don't even use the tamper any more, don't need it.

[@jpdj2715]

I would say your problem is not "naked" versus "regular". The challenge with "naked" is, though, to get the grind (particle size) and its dose right, first, and then the proper distribution. A "regular" portafilter (literally: filter carrier) masks uneven extraction and coffee spraying in all directions from the filter in cases when the grinds have issues, so as a "learning tool" the "naked" is actually very good. Also, a regular portafilter leaves coffee residue in the space between the outer shell and the filter basket. This builds muck over time and impacts the taste of your coffee. I use a "regular" portafilter, but removed the spring that arrests the filter basket - and have multiple filter baskets. Each serving has a clean filter and rinsed + dry-wiped portafilter interior to start with. Bottom line is the question what "recipe" of coffee you want to make. If you make Americano, then all this espresso wizardry is almost meaningless. When you want to do classical Italian "caffè" (=coffee, =espresso ristretto) then it matters a lot. And then there's today's US gen extreme doses into single shots.

[@chucklemasters6433]

@@jpdj2715 if i get the grind right for the naked portafilter and it is so fine it won't even extract through the other basket how has that improved my coffee extraction experience? and yes your description of dialing in the grind sounds just like it came from other you tube videos i've seen but i still can't use the same grind on the other portafilter. also doesn't everybody rinse and dry their basket between pulls? how does having an extra basket make any difference? rinsed and dried is rinsed and dried no matter how many extra filters you have.

[@jpdj2715]

@@chucklemasters6433 - If you dialed your setup in for the filter basket in the regular portafilter, then take that basket out and put it into the naked portafilter. Something may be wrong with the holes in the filter you have in the naked one now - too many, too large, etc. If what I wrote "sounds" like YT then you must have been reading out loud as if in primary school? Have you actually been paying attention to all those YT videos you watched and that you think my write up compares to? Seems not.

[@chucklemasters6433]

@@jpdj2715 your reading comprehension skills don't seem to be the sharpest i've seen either dingle

[@icewolfy1]

What if pre-infusion was configured to hit 9 bar in the first second, then slow down and then again increase pressure to 9 bar? Hmm!

[@chefe2152]

Here is my question.in this case what would be your best recommendation gor for tamper? Palm tamper,self leveling tamper ,or spring loaded tamper? Is level coffee more important than same pressure tamp everytime?

[@LifestyleLab_]

They are both important, but an unlevel tamp will almost always lead to uneven extraction, tamping pressure, as shown in this video has some room for error above a certain point. For that reason, I always recommend some kind of leveling tamper if you struggle to do so manually

[@ColinBester]

If tamp pressure doesn't matter then how come with keeping consistent expresso grind (using flair royal manual grinder) I can drastically change my extraction flow rate from real fast to nothing at all being pushed through the grind and pressure gauge maxing out way above 9 bar. There is a difference in not being fixated on exact pressure and being consistent stating tamp pressure can't be too much (I'm talking in general here and not specifically about this video)

[@LifestyleLab_]

The thesis of this video is not that tamping pressure doesn't matter, but rather it doesn't matter once you get above a certain threshold. Or, if you keep very consistent tamping pressure. Tamping once at 5lbs and then the next time at 25lbs will absolutely yield different results.

[@ColinBester]

@@LifestyleLab_ I feel that that is misleading unless you're saying it doesn't matter once you tamp too hard and there is no flow :-). I'd agree 25lb, 30lb would be pretty similar and the prize is not for super hard tamp. If you tamped harder the flow will slow down.

[@jasonvespa7452]

Great video!

[@sidtp7307]

Fascinating. Thank you

[@justinvs4926]

Nicely done

[@Tristanium]

Great breakdown in the video 🙌 I do wish that you had included the flow rate mls/sec for each of the tamps as it was cut off the right hand side of your graph on the decent. I presume with the tamps 25lbs or higher that you were around the 1.5-2.5mls/sec and as the tamps were less strong that number rose significantly- 3.5-4.0+? If you do read this and could clarify, that would be great, thanks 🙏😊

[@LifestyleLab_]

The flow rate is not cut off, the exported graph simply uses the one unitless axis on the left. It can be read as bars of pressure or flow in mL/s

[@Tristanium]

@@LifestyleLab_ So the data on the side is actually flow rate? Sorry my mistake 😅🙏

[@LifestyleLab_]

Yes, flow rate AND pressure, hence why it’s unitless haha. Understandably confusing

[@nickorlando8261]

When you use the Normcore tamper do you level you portafilter too? Or you don’t have to with the tamper? Thx.

[@LifestyleLab_]

All that matters is having a flat tamp in the basket, which this tamper ensures

[@johnharrington9655]

Hi, Thanks for the very informative videos. On a different note, did you ever produce the video on the flow control mod for the rocket appartemento? There seems to be much conflicting advice on it & I would love to hear your hands on experience.

[@LifestyleLab_]

It’s on the list for the next month or so! Having trouble prioritizing video, lots of exciting stuff in the queue

[@johnharrington9655]

@@LifestyleLab_ looking forward to it!

[@lucatonipeperoni]

Ate my lunch watching this video. Now time for some good espresso :)

[@LifestyleLab_]

Enjoy!

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

I've had similar experience with the happy tamper, once you've found the 'hard enough' setting, shots get very consistent. But th minimum number will really depend on the puck depth (dose) and type of coffee.

[@MotorMaus01]

How i know i press 20lb 35lb or 60lb? So is overpressing bad? Or just press hard and make sure the coffee is dens with no air gaps ?

[@LifestyleLab_]

What this experiment determined is that it is essentially impossible to over press

[@arun279]

Does it choke if you apply too much tamping pressure or is choking purely a function of grind size?

[@LifestyleLab_]

This test would imply that there is really no such thing as “overtamping” and that choking is primarily caused by grind size

[@danielsh1015]

Interesting. In my experience, I need to tamp with great pressure (>35psi?), otherwise I won’t get a satisfying shot with my La Pavoni.

[@LifestyleLab_]

35psi on a 58mm basket is over 140lbs!

[@danielsh1015]

@@LifestyleLab_ Hahaha, I guess I meant 35 lbs!

[@daRock1212]

"*Oops" - haha always lock and load! Great work, this confirms which spring I should use on a spring tamper (Normcore) for best consistency. It's also the perfect way to use the data coming from the Decent. Aww I didn't know that about an iron pinky ring, and I'm too far out from college and no longer in the engineering field, but it would have been a nice flex!

[@LifestyleLab_]

It’s a Canadian thing :) 🇨🇦

[@KrishnenduKes]

Now that I have learnt about tamping pressure, I can start planning on buying a home espresso machine. Lol!

[@LifestyleLab_]

I like your order of operations! Haha You’ll be a pro right out the gate ;)

[@KrishnenduKes]

@@LifestyleLab_ Going to happen soon mate. Just watch. Lol! :D

[@kevykev7772]

Great video. Is it safe to say that 25lbs is a nice sweet spot?

[@LifestyleLab_]

Safe to say tamp as hard as you can while keeping the tamp level, and without hurting yourself :)

[@thriftysurvivor6117]

I was having no issues with my espresso machine with the amount of tamping pressure I've been exerting, but lately for some reason even while tamping at well over 40lbs of pressure my extractions are coming out way too quickly and my "espresso" is extremely weak. What can be causing this?

[@LifestyleLab_]

Tamping pressure shouldn't be used to regulate flow/extraction. You need to just adjust your grind size finer to slow the flow :)

[@thriftysurvivor6117]

@@LifestyleLab_ I understand the fineness of the grind but the fineness of the grind hasn't changed since the extractions took the appropriate amount of time and the espresso was great with plenty of cremma on top. I doubt there's anything wrong with my machine since if anything if there was a lack of pressure the extractions would take longer. could it be that I'm over tamping forcing the flow to go around the puck rather than through it?

[@LifestyleLab_]

@thriftysurvivor6117 the same grind will not necessarily work day to day. Cafes dial in each morning for this reason. Main thing contributing to the shift is often beans aging / becoming stale once the bag has been opened, but even small variations like air humidity can require adjusting the grind size.

[@thriftysurvivor6117]

@@LifestyleLab_ That being said, should the issue possibly go away as the weather changes?

[@LifestyleLab_]

Possibly :) But it really isn't an "issue", it's just a variance that you need to account for on your next shot. Perfect normal to need to move finer or courser day to day or as beans age

[@deulexrex6231]

Everytime I tamp, it gets clogged. I don't get it. Even if I tamp it lightly, I'm suing a double shot and I'm sure it's the correct amount of coffee.

[@LifestyleLab_]

Then you’re likely grinding way way too fine

[@RileyDevereaux]

Curious what tamping over 35 lbs would look like and how much is too much.

[@LifestyleLab_]

I was contemplating standing on my portafilter for dramatic effect, but decided against it

[@RileyDevereaux]

@@LifestyleLab_ I was thinking more like jumping with a pogo stick on the portafilter, but I guess we can start with standing on it

[@just.off.the.a4208]

Next up. Coffee beans in hydraulic press. How hard tamp is too hard?

[@DriftaholiC]

Matches my experience.

[@tonytee8798]

Wow thanks

[@helloweeny]

Would be interesting to see how dose in baskets affect flow too, like 14g in a 16g basket Vs the normal 16g

[@hassanbazzi3545]

Very interesting

[@rob-kiwi3997]

Have you considered that the shower screen is actually tamping.... Prep a shot either method. Then lock it into the head. And without shooting the shot remove the handle and you'll see that the screen has touched/tamped the coffee. It means the assumptions made about the clearance between the top of our tamped puck and the bottom of the screen are wrong. In that there is no gap and in fact even without and ocd or tamping the screen will as it has always been tamp for us.

[@LifestyleLab_]

That shouldn’t be happening. If it’s happening on your machine, then you’re over-dosing for your basket. If too full, this could even damage the shower screen

[@rob-kiwi3997]

@Lifestyle Lab 18grams (double) in most standard e61 groups or Rancilio heads will do this. If you consider the fact that tamp pressure is becoming less of a consideration. and that dose plays a bigger role in extraction time now than tamping (grind set not withstanding) means that as you increase dose and if the screen is in fact tamping. Every gram you add would increase that pressure. This can be observed to small degrees if your handle goes past 90° when locked your shots go longer. This is because the lugs on your portafilter go up a thread like ramp as you wind it into the head. So the further around you swing the handle the higher it sits in the head

[@rob-kiwi3997]

@Lifestyle Lab the fact that every video you find online showing someone using no tamp and getting OK ish extractions is met with disbelief and confusion. Now if you consider that perhaps the screen has been tamping after we have done it.... this whole time. Making grind size the most important factor to extraction time. Followed by dose. Then a combination of those 2 And tamping nowhere in site

[@rob-kiwi3997]

@Lifestyle Lab this theory is backed up by the fact the Rancilio group head shower screen is retained by a hex flathead screw in the centre. That if put in lightly using even finger pressure. always winds itself tighter than when you put it in. Because the dry tamped puck is turning the screw. But don't take my word for it just try it.

[@rob-kiwi3997]

@Lifestyle Lab this is also confirmed in the usage of the single shot handle and basket. When using the fill and level method of dosing a basket. All baristas are taught that for the single basket it can't be level you have to scoop some out. And if you've ever forgotten to scoop. That is you level it level abs then tamp. You won't even be able to lock the handle in the head. Because the screen which is touching the tamped coffee is preventing the lugs from grabbing the head. And if by small miracle you do get it in. the extraction is 3 days long

[@RS-sc2zr]

Italians cafe just give a quick press before extraction

[@LifestyleLab_]

The world of coffee has evolved a long way from classic Italian espresso.

[@dpwild328]

So, why pre-infuse?

[@LifestyleLab_]

Allows you to grind finer and increase extraction without choking the machine. Also helps to reduce channeling by slowly soaking the puck before hitting with full pressure

[@dpwild328]

@@LifestyleLab_ thank you - there are a lot of variables & a lot of ways to go wrong...

[@LifestyleLab_]

Absolutely, that’s the curse of trying to extract a full 18g of coffee in only 30 seconds. Espresso is very finicky

[@Kmaaq]

I see decent, i keep watching

[@LifestyleLab_]

A man of excellent taste I see! (Nice car)

[@Murse88]

Wait wait wait, what happened with the lever? 😱

[@FlairEspresso]

portafilter locks securely inside of 4 and 5 o'clock. failure to lock in securely can allow the portafilter to rotate out as higher pressures are reached

[@Murse88]

@@FlairEspresso I thought so, let's call it a purposeful failure for dramatic effect ☺️

[@LifestyleLab_]

110% my fault!

[@davev8347]

Just purchase an adjustable distribution accessory and save yourself the headache. It will level and tamp the espresso for you.

[@LifestyleLab_]

Same question still applies. Compressing with a distributor still applies a certain amount of force

[@JR-zw2vb]

Wow. So, no need to buy an expensive tamper? Just use the plastic one that came with a cheap machine!?

[@LifestyleLab_]

Pressure-wise. However having a tamper that is precision fit to tamp to the very edge of the basket can have a huge impact

[@thetruthserum2816]

This analytical approach earned a sub...

[@caio8435]

2:33 hahahaha (Oops)

[@LifestyleLab_]

💥

[@seiyonblem]

OMG! The heck did you just do on flair58?! Give it to me instead!

[@LifestyleLab_]

Portafilter wasn’t locked in all the way 🤦‍♂️

[@seiyonblem]

@@LifestyleLab_ in the name of research!

[@LifestyleLab_]

In the name of “whoopsies” haha

[@bloopasonic]

Presenter: 9 bar is not something most people can relate to world: Uhm, actually... Presenter: Bunch of American gobbledygook world: 🙄

[@LifestyleLab_]

I’m Canadian, and an engineer. Very familiar with units, thanks 👍

[@bloopasonic]

​@@LifestyleLab_ I didn't mean to knock the video, and hope it didn't come across that way. Really like that you actually experiment, and don't just make bunch of unsubstantiated claims. It just cracks me up when Americans (and I'm including Canadians here) think people know what PSIs and other funny units are. I can assure you, the vast majority of people on this planet have no idea what you're talking about 😀

[@LifestyleLab_]

@bloopasonic unfortunately gotta tailor the content to the country where 80% of viewership comes from which is the good ol US of A. Check out my Fellow Stagg EKG review, there’s a subtle shoutout to our friends to the south ;)

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Generic comment to boost engagement

[@dbvollbio2546]

Why are you using lbs, this is a stupid unit

[@LifestyleLab_]

Thank you

[@IcyBrook]

Dude you sound just like Tucker Carlson