Eternal Torment is an Illogical Doctrine

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Eternal Torment is an Illogical Doctrine - Addison Hodges Hart

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Күн бұрын

Addison Hodges Hart gives a brief summary of how he came to learn about and believe in universalism.
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@SummaOmnia 2 жыл бұрын

Considering the amount of suffering and misfortune so many humans experience on a daily basis, how does even eons of suffering make sense for even the most wicked of people. You can only be in pain and torment for so long before it becomes redundant. Unless, of course, the purgation may be something as simple as sitting in a jail cell.

@melisasanchez177 2 жыл бұрын

I wish I could find a community of faith in my area that believes in redemption of all through Christ. I feel so alone in my faith walk because all the Christians around me believe in eternal conscious torment.

@camerondavis5337 2 жыл бұрын

I don’t know where you are, but if you are in the US, most mainline (Episcopalian, ELCA Lutheran, United Methodist, etc.) would take no issue with your views, even if they are not explicitly affirmed.

@dorinamary7863 2 жыл бұрын

@@camerondavis5337 Do you know why all those denominations you listed have priests and say "mass"? Those things are not found in the NT church in the Book of Acts. Just curious, as I was raised Catholic, and have been in several reformed Protestants churches. It's just a nagging question I have.

@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын

@@camerondavis5337 It is better to be part of a Church that believes in eternal conscious torment but is a good, Spirit-filled congregation that teaches sound doctrine than be part of a Church that does not believe in ECT but is lukewarm, spiritually dead, woke, and LGBT affirming one.

@mattr.1887 Жыл бұрын

Cameron - you sure about that?

@michaelnewzealand1888 11 ай бұрын

It is the same for us annihilationists. You should check out rethinking hell if you haven't already for another perspective.

@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын

Yes, this is the most decent and truthful position to take. I have a hard time understanding the majority of Christians who tries that evil and miserable attempt to justify eternal conscious torment as if it is a good and just punishment. Personally, I believe it is based on utter ignorance, they do not really think or reason, and this is why to them eternal torment sounds like a fine punishment. Sometimes I talked to one person and said that Satan might easily deserve billions of years of torment but not endless and he was like "well what is the difference? Billions of years or eternal, it is basically the same" This is why I believe people cannot simply fathom the fact of literal eternity, how big that is, that even quadrillions of years are absolutely nothing before it. Eternal torment literally contradicts everything that God is supposed to be, love, justice, mercy, compassion, goodness, etc. all cease from existing when endless torment comes into the scene.

@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын

@@johnkristofftimbal5053 I believe many of those testimonies are real. Hell is a real place. God gave me to experience the real horror of Hades in 2012. It was indescribable misery and I felt that this is the only thing that I will ever feel again. This is how Hades/Hell is. However, it is not literally endless. You see. It is 100% righteous for God to bring His wrath that is pain and suffering to a sinner not just for the sake of pain and suffering without any good outcome but for the sake of correction, to teach him a lesson, to humble him down and make him reject his sinful behavior. Such an act is truly a good act and justifiable 100%. God acted this way many times over in the Old Testament, He poured His wrath upon His people and brought them suffering and misery but it was never for the sake of simply bringing them misery, it was always for the sake of humbling them down and teaching them a lesson. Because if using the simplest wisdom to reason it out, if you bring nothing but pain and misery for no other reason but to bring pain and misery, for eternity, that is by definition evil. You see, every good act, always, without an exception has a good outcome and a good outcome, always, brings a good emotional experience, this is why it is a good act and every evil act always has a negative, painful emotional outcome. So, the idea of God bringing nothing but pain, suffering, and misery for a literal eternity cannot be a good thing by its very definition. It is by definition an evil thing because it's final outcome is nothing but suffering. This is why it would be perfectly understandable if God's Judgments would not be mindless endless torture, but corrective, humbling down, and lesson-teaching experiences. Here are some biblical verses that indicate it: "Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at all who are proud and bring them low, look at all who are proud and humble them" Job 40:11 "Now your impurity is lewdness. Because I tried to cleanse you but you would not be cleansed from your impurity, you will not be clean again until my wrath against you has subsided." Ez 24:13 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:9 Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, “for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. “Then I will purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder." Zephaniah 3:8-9

@johnkristofftimbal5053 Жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 Lamentations 3 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ²² It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. ²³ They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. … ³¹ For the Lord will not cast off for ever: ³² But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. ³³ For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

@johnkristofftimbal5053 Жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 Lamentations 3 (KJV) ³¹ For the Lord will not cast off for ever: ³² But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. ³³ For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын

@@johnkristofftimbal5053 You have to ask God to see more spiritually than carnally, then you would begin to see that Sheol/Hades is not just some atheistic state of non-existence, like a literal grave but an underworld, a spiritual place of curses and misery where Satan and his angels were cast out when they rebelled against God. Jonah for example went there, he died and ended into the belly of Sheol, in a place of hopelessness and darkness.

@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын

@@johnkristofftimbal5053 They feel in hell like it is for eternity because in hell all hope is sucked out of you completely but it is not literally for eternity, there will be an end. Hell will be destroyed in the lake of fire eventually.

@OrigenisAdamantios 2 жыл бұрын

Aionion: no problem!! Aidios: big problem!!

@KainosJoyPodcast Жыл бұрын

thank you for putting this out there 🙂

@mgerard365 8 ай бұрын

Judaism also teaches that Hell is purgative and not eternal. The doctrine of eternal torment goes against God's mercy and restorative justice.

@dalecampbell5617 11 ай бұрын

With proper translations from the Hebrew and Greek, there are many scriptures that support universal salvation. Plus the idea that God, being all powerful, all loving, and all knowing, knowing the beginning to the end, is going to allow himself to lose most of mankind to a spirit being that he created, is ridiculous. Or that Satan somehow has the ability to put a time limit on God's work. As if God can't reach/offer his salvation to the lost beyond the grave because Satan won't allow it, or because it's just too late or man's so called free will is more powerful than God's will, is ridiculous. For God to allow the lost to burn for all eternity, or for God to resurrect the lost, just for the sake of judgment, and then annihilate/murder them, seems like more of man made ideas. Only man and his man made religion can turn the gospel into a horror story.

@jasonegeland1446 Жыл бұрын

If God has the ability to provide the full knowledge of his will to a person, then that person would have everything he or she would ever need to be complete in all aspects of goodness in the ultimate connection to God. If God doesn't use this ability to fulfill this, then either he doesn't truly have that sort of power or he doesn't truly love all of his creation as his own to begin with. Eternal torment could never glorify God, thus is would never have been constructed by God, but by the imagination of the misinformed and the traditions of men.

@EricLovesCHRIST Жыл бұрын

Short sell eternal conscious torment

@bradvincent2586 Жыл бұрын

I’m on board. As of about a few days ago. Been torturing me a decade or more. Still not fully convinced but not stopping til I know the truth

@tommywarren4633 Жыл бұрын

All this eternal damnation belief would go away if and whenever people stop reading toxic Bibles

@KSSBG Жыл бұрын

What's not a toxic bible?

@hesicast 2 жыл бұрын

I don't understand. How can God not love you and not respect the fact that you do not want Him? The evil one is not redeemable because of choice. It's not punishment from God it's a choice to be without God. Evil is not God's creation it is a result of turning away from God.

@bartbrownlaw1692 2 жыл бұрын

Adam turned away ..we didn’t .. we were born into it.. no choice

@hesicast 2 жыл бұрын

@Mark (217maka) where did you read that?

@hesicast 2 жыл бұрын

@Mark (217maka) I was joking. I knew where you read it. Now read it in Greek.

@hesicast 2 жыл бұрын

@Mark (217maka) lol. I think if you read the Church Fathers on the passage as this was discussed by the early Church. St Basil Origen and st John speak specifically on this subject. In fact these discussions were passed down from the apostles.

@hesicast 2 жыл бұрын

@Mark (217maka) The Church is the pillar of Truth. It brought you the Bible. If you accept Sola sciptura that means that whatever you read and interpret must be the same as everyone else. I find that problematic because there are 20000 different denominations thus 20000 different popes. Surely there must be a Body that's undivided. That has existed since Christ that can explain things better than you or I. Or are we the authority? I don't know I think if I was talking about Buddhism I would go to the source and its followers for clarity. I would read the people of then and today and see if it lines up. It seems to me that the old testament was written for people who did not have the Holy Spirit. Also if God created evil then he can't be all good. Marians used to say the same thing. Don't know just a philosophy guy. Not a priest or anything myself. But I have read the Fathers. I have also read modern ideas. They don't seem to line up.

@bayreuth79 6 ай бұрын

I could not agree more with Addison Hart. There are unfortunately expressions of the Christian faith that are so morally repugnant that any reasonable person should reject them completely. Perhaps the most repellant expression of the Christian faith is Calvinism and Jansenism (which, fortunately, is dead).

@MB777-qr2xv 5 ай бұрын

Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” 2Thessalonians 1:5-10 says, "The Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is supposedly a parable and NOT a story. Even if it is, how does it point to annihilation? “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” Notice the rich man is NOT annihilated but rather in torment in flames. He can feel pain, he can see Abraham and Lazarus afar off, and he can think rationally. In what metaphorical sense does this speak of annihilation?

@sosaflex9152 4 ай бұрын

The whole point of the rich man and Lazarus wasn’t eternal torment lol. The whole point is the very way it ends off. The parable is a foreshadowing of Jesus resurrection not of eternal torment in hell. You have to be logical. Do you really think your gonna be in hell consciously walking being able to talk to Abraham or talk to people while I’m tormented and can see other on the other side in paradise ? Use your brain bruh

@OldSchoolBaptistInOslo Жыл бұрын

You have to not read the bible to think all humanity is going to be saved. John 3:16 KJV - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

@michaelnewzealand1888 11 ай бұрын

The word is John 3:16 is "perish" which means to kill or destroy. It's the greek word appolymi, which in the gospels when applied to humans always means to kill or destroy or be "annihilated" if you will. Only believers get "eternal life". Go through Romans and check that out.

@christopherconey732 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the remarks. Let's take the man who is still the main monster in the Western imagination, Adolf Hitler. How long would he have to suffer to atone for the suffering he (and many others too in the Reich) caused to innocent people? And although it's a different question, what if he still has free will, and refuses to repent? Does Universalism assume that after we die we can no longer have ill-will, so that we repent, whether we want to or not?

@brotherandrew3393 2 жыл бұрын

Hitler can not atone for the suffering he inflicted on millions of humans. It is impossible for him. As it is impossible for us to atone for our wrongdoing. And in my understanding hell is not viewed as a place of atonement. It is more a mode of existence in which you can not escape the confrontation with your wrongdoings because you finally rejected divine grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

@ObsidianTeen 2 жыл бұрын

One position is modest libertarianism, where free will requires at least one non-determined choice but can also include determined choices if the determinans (the thing that determines the choice) was freely acquired. After making so many wrong choices and tasting death, the memory of the sour taste will make it so the creature freely-and-inevitably chooses the Good. It's not coercion since the memory comes from the creature's own choices. God will save all!

@christopherconey732 2 жыл бұрын

@@ObsidianTeen That's helpful. For me, the hard bit of what you have written is that a choice can be 'free-and-inevitable', because I find it hard to say that any choice can be free if if also inevitable.

@ObsidianTeen 2 жыл бұрын

@@christopherconey732 "Libertarians disagree about precisely where indeterminism is required in the process that produces a free act. Some hold that every free act must be undetermined, that is, lacking a factor that is both prior to and logically sufficient for the act. Others hold that a given free act could be determined, provided that the *determinans* is something for which the agent is responsible in virtue of performing some prior undetermined act that resulted in the *determinans.* We can think of these as ‘strict’ and ‘broad’ accounts of what it is for an act to be free in the libertarian sense." -W. Matthews Grant, "Divine Universal Causality and Libertarian Freedom"

@christopherconey732 2 жыл бұрын

@@ObsidianTeen I am not familiar with this formulation so thank you as it's interesting. A view of things from the other end, as it were, might characterise most actions as overdetermined, that is, as caused by many determinans. When we make 'big' life decisions, often we weigh up pros and cons. Even when there seem to be only pros, we might try to find an alternative that is even better. But when an action is overdetermined, it may often be the case that nobody, including the actor, is certain how much weight was given by the actor to each cause. If there was a noble motive/cause, maybe we emphasise this in any public statements, rather than a base cause which was actually there and which, perhaps, was dominant.

@brotherandrew3393 2 жыл бұрын

It is not about human logic. It is about truth no matter what you think about it.

@bramrawlings3051 2 жыл бұрын

But the Bible doesn’t call us to throw out our brains. If a doctrine is incoherent, it should be thrown out. Logic is a gift from God.

@brotherandrew3393 2 жыл бұрын

@@bramrawlings3051 I did not talk about throwing the brain out of the window. I am talking about making human logic the benchmark for the faith which is wrong because our brain is limited and not able to grasp the things of God. We are called NOT to rely upon our ability to understand God and his Truth by our intellect. It is not made for this purpose. Revelation is by God's Spirit not by human intellect. Every gift has its own purpose. The purpose of the intellect and of human logic is NOT to be the benchmark for supernatural faith. Our thoughts are not as high as God's thoughts. Therefore they cannot understand him. This is the very basic logic of humility.

@metalheadhippie8738 2 жыл бұрын

Are you suggesting that the truth can be illogical? If the truth is illogical then how can we ever possibly discern truth from falsehoods? Also wouldn't you have to use logic to disprove what I'm saying? I mean if you throw out logic, then you've already lost any hope for reasonable discourse or debate.

@brotherandrew3393 2 жыл бұрын

@@metalheadhippie8738 Your first question does presuppose a lot of assumptions which do not work in this case. 1. That God´s truth is something you can define intellectually. But that is not true. When Addison Hodges Hart is talking about a "concept of hell" he is making the same mistake. If there is a hell it is not a concept but a divinely "produced" reality which does not require your consent. In fact Jesus is telling us that HE is the truth and testifies about God´s truth. So God´s truth is in its very nature personal and divine and not something that can be defined by human intellect. In fact this truth is so not human that it needs to be revealed to us and that the only proper way to handle it is to obey it. We have nothing within us to verify it. It can only be verified by God´s spirit. 2. That what we call logic can be applied to God´s truth. But that also is not true. Because we are human as our logic is. And we are corrupted by sin. 3. That what you call "illogical" is beyond question. That is also not true. It depends on your premises, why you are choosing them and what follows from them. To sum this up: Making human logic the benchmark for divine truth is foolish because it makes logic our "God". I guess there are more than these three points but this is enough for now. If you are talking about a "reasonable discourse or debate" you do need assumptions you are agreeing with those you are debating. Listen to Paul what he has to say about an intellectual approach to the things of God: "And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1. Cor. 2:1-5) I totally understand that many people have problems to make sense about hell. I am included in this crowd. But I can not afford to take all the warnings of Jesus Christ lightly where he is speaking of the consequences of God´s judgement over those who do not trust in him.

@metalheadhippie8738 2 жыл бұрын

@@brotherandrew3393 ok, so if logic isn't the metric we use to discern truth. Then what are we left with? Our feelings about a topic? The problem with this is that a Buddhist monk can have such overwhelming feelings about the truth of his religion that he would live at a monetary all his life. A Muslim can have those same overwhelming feeling about his version of the truth that he would blow himself up in the name of his God. And there are countless other examples. Not to mention that our feelings are also corrupted by original sin. So if we can't use logic, and we also can't use feelings then what do we have? Just the plain hope that we'll be lead to truth but with no way to know if we are truly participating in that truth? After all did Jesus not try to reason with the pharasees? Logic and coherence is the order of creation, to reject logic is to reject the laws that God uses to govern reality.

@Mike-qt7jp 5 ай бұрын

Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” 2Thessalonians 1:5-10 says, "The Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..." By the way, the word destruction here comes from the Greek word olethros and it means; destruction, death, ruin, doom. So the phrase eternal destruction above means ETERNAL death, ruin, doom. Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.

@Mike-qt7jp 5 ай бұрын

Luke 16:22-24 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” Notice the rich man is NOT annihilated but rather in torment in flames. He can feel pain, he can see, he can have a rational conversation. How does this in any metaphorical sense point to annihilation?