The Issue With Spamming in Clone Hero

[@randyladyman]

agreed with everything said here great vid as always, my dud

[@RandomDays906]

🦀 Spamming is Gone 🦀

[@tacoshark44]

randyladyman leaf green is cancelled

[@TheDSSlayer]

so even though darkly had the 100%FC he spammed quite a bit, is it then not a technical FC?

[@nathangabbard766]

I am able to beat the One fast solo A on expert, but i need star power and i spam. Its not because im too lazy to learn how to do it its just that Ive tried before and i literally cant do it so i just spam. Is that bad :/

[@Animositous]

Nathan Gabbard I’m rebuilding the muscle for that part kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6u1qYOCrqx2jZI

[@TheSaxRunner05]

Maybe it should just have a "boo" counter that displays on the results screen and leave the mechanics the same. Then there's be a measure of the extra inputs people could compare scores with.

[@dopaminecloud]

Big brain.

[@mphayes98]

I like that. Doesn't discredit FCs, but if someone FCs it with fewer extra inputs, it'd show up in the final screen. Maybe even have another super name for FCs that have zero.

[@johnfroedge6098]

@@mphayes98 THIS

[@Icyshade.]

osu's UR system might be transported to vsrgs or simply other rhythm games

[@Broctis]

This is a feature now 😄

[@CloneHeroGame]

Spamming, for the most part, is pretty unintentional and is just part of the way CH was made. I went for it to feel much more like GH3 than anything else, and going back to some of the really early videos CH used to be memed at because of how hard some things were and then the update came that allowed to set the controller's polling rate which pretty much fixed any issue anybody had in terms of how the controller performed. Most of the reason I always liked the Neversoft games over the Harmonix games is because they were never overly strict about any particular thing, so they're very much easier to just pick up and play for the average player. I really doubt GH3 would've performed as well as it did in sales if it played exactly like GH2. All that being said, going forward with StrikeLine we are planning on ways to not have spamming be so prevalent. While we likely won't completely remove it, there's the possibility of an extra stat applied to each score that you can filter the leaderboards with which would show less spammed scores higher than scores that had more spam.

[@droyal1994]

Srylain The 2nd all strikeline needs is a “tight engine mode” one that replicates RB2/GH2

[@NunoVH]

An "inputs used" counter on the stats screen or something lol

[@GHAddict112]

how does one unintentionally spam "oh fuck oh shit I can't stop doing quad zigs"

[@98danielray]

@@droyal1994 his idea is much better

[@98danielray]

@@droyal1994 adding a new game mode would only separate the community and also induce unfair comparison.unifying everything under stats that show how spammed a song was would make it better to rate fcs

[@DivineSmooof]

If players want to spam they should just play Rock Band 4 with freestyle solos on.

[@paulsd9255]

Still need non-spam in following the guideline if you don't want earrape

[@yol_n]

Or they can continue playing clone hero the way they want

[@GHFear]

I am happy to be able to say that I have never spammed anything outside of one troll video. FeelsGoodMan

[@JLNightmare]

Well hello there GHFear ;)

[@CarnyJared.]

Hey pretty cool to see me in here :) Just wanted to say that I think the best way to describe the methods that Frost and I used to FC Extends Levant is taking advantage of the engine logic. Tapping a higher note for long strings of taps could be seen as spamming but, at least in my case, it's a far more calculated method than just spamming quads.

[@Tyler_Kwak]

I was about to say! "holy crap you're in the video!"

[@exiledgoldfish6329]

Yeah the Extends example is NOT spamming imo.

[@pannnella]

Considering this video and seeing how bad it is, I’m very impressed you got a 0 ghost notes fc man! GG!!!!

[@DivineSmooof]

One of the most fun feedback loops is learning a complex or difficult pattern and then finally being able to hit and master those patterns. Why play a game based around playing patterns of notes if you're not going to learn the patterns?

[@cursedkarmastudiosllc9198]

The same reason people play games like call of duty with hacks. they want that clout and glory man.

[@Cobalt985]

this is why I now play IIDX

[@TheHunter-gw7rh]

just put a "ghosted notes" count at the end screen. You can spam if you want but now everyone can see how much you abused it.

[@GoulartGH]

call it "finesse" just like in tetris

[@ethanmartin2781]

thats a pretty good idea tbh

[@HraesvelgrsEggs]

Yes that's an amazing idea

[@Verkern]

hopefully this is possible, very good solution imo

[@black_m1n825]

Section counter too, please

[@NRobbi42]

Next Episode: The psychology of flames

[@electroflame6188]

lul

[@tylerlarsen1842]

A video criticizing the LeafGreen tactic, I see.

[@tjrizzo4642]

ROFL

[@Evan8506]

if only you knew

[@toxicitych]

FrostedGH tactic*

[@x6568tank]

@@toxicitych what

[@Novristxch]

WHAT DOES THE FOX SAY

[@timbermaniac5766]

If i feel myself starting to spam the buttons I immediately stop playing that song or I start practicing on that section.

[@jgn]

just use the gitadora guitarfreaks engine 4head

[@TheKidNobodyNotices]

this but unironically

[@nagekun]

I feel like a good majority of top GH players wouldn't be able to time Gitadora

[@smallwaves]

Introducing GitaDora mechanics into CH would give birth to a wildly different meta. Might be cool

[@rarebeeph1783]

@@smallwaves the option to switch between engines would be dope

[@xdank710]

accuracy play in GH would be pretty sick, honestly, and i'd totally get down with that

[@Fatty_A]

I feel like "spamming" on extends levant really doesn't count as spamming

[@BlueMetal]

I agree with this video 100%. Trying to implement an anti-spam system in a game of this nature though would require some VERY careful planning and tuning. The very action of letting go of a chord results in one 'descending' 2+ notes (Same with pressing a chord and inputting an ascent of notes), so only so much can be done about this in regards to discouraging it from an active gameplay standpoint. Implementing a score penalty system would barely do much either since almost no one cares about scores outside of the very prestigious songs, like the Soullesses. All that said, I don't have any ideas, but devs/programmers probably do. The only other anti-spam system we've seen was from the Harmonix engines (GH2 onward), where you can ghost descending notes but not ascending, where they made it that way for the very reason I mentioned above about letting go of buttons. This is what makes some sections insanely tricky to hit rather than just hard due to speed and timing window. It's unfortunate that spamming is a thing with these games' engine. Doing the labbing in training mode to create a method and practicing it will ultimately lead to much better consistency than spamming ever could (And is really damn satisfying on top of that). In my opinion, if you're not good enough to hit a section with a proper method that needs more than some amount of ghosting, then you're just not good enough to get that FC without the spamming crutch. Get better at the song. Don't care how good you are overall as a player. Earn the FC, don't bullshit it. The song creators didn't really help matters either. With the looseness of these games' engines, the only steps forward to create difficulty are to create hand-mangling patterns (The lesser evil, as they're harder to spam) or just insanely fast walls of notes that are either incomprehensible or just too fast to use any practical methods, basically requiring spamming to be done.

[@supermarble94]

Just want to add in that that same ghosting mechanic existed in GH1. People just struggled so much with GH1's HOPOs that they elected to strum them all so this was never realized.

[@purmello]

I think it also has a lot to do with the way songs are charted. There's an abundance of songs which are made from the ground up to be just a wall of notes, and as charts get more and more dense with notes, players are essentially disincentivised from even trying not to spam. I feel like while very note-dense songs have their place, basically as a rite of passage, there's room for more intricate charts which are difficult for different reasons.

[@chambeet]

I miss when Guitar Hero was based off real rock songs with real guitar. I’m sorry, but I’m just not into the stuff I see in these Clone Hero vids. Just a bunch of synth played at 30 NPS. Maybe I’m just getting old?

[@theharvardyard2356]

I agree, particularly I think there's a lot of room for more strum notes in fast sections. Really no reason not to include them more that I can see, other than "hammer ons whenever it's fast" is the way it's always been done.

[@D_a_v_o_s]

@@chambeet This.

[@chambeet]

@@D_a_v_o_s Glad I'm not the only one.

[@lightfizzy1232]

@@chambeet yeah you're just getting old

[@gevodanl7082]

Thank you! I was thinking I was the only one who thought like this. This issue is even worse nowadays.

[@black_m1n825]

Keyboard Player: Well I technically can't spam!!!

[@crimson-foxtwitch2581]

Here’s an idea: how about making judgement-style variable timing ratings similar to other rhythm games and only display the ratings you got from each note? Say, having Perfect be the GH1 timing window, Great be a little below that, Good be on Rock Band’s timing, OK be the outside timing window on GH3, and Boo be ghost notes tapped during spamming. It doesn’t need any mechanical changes and you can turn the display on or off, plus getting a Perfect Full Combo would be something of a GH1 player’s charting thing while still getting access to the whole library.

[@GHSpaghetti]

It just depends how you define spam, spam could be just pressing random notes in the hopes of hitting something, or it can be when you intentionally ghost an input to make hitting a section easier, heck even anchoring could mean spam as you are holding the note despite the note not being a sustain, not everyone is as dexterous as top players and to be able to hit certain sections need to be able to find their own methods to hit something, for example a GRBO zig could also be hit as a quint zig, for the sake of ghosting a yellow to hit the pattern easier it is so worth it. finding ways to abuse the engine is how we progress as players, take that away and no one will want to play anymore.

[@zakizdaman]

Unstable rate but keep the hit window the same? Add early window, but dont actually make it drop the combo, just show how inaccurate they really were?

[@snil4]

Essentially adding a great/good judgment? If so I think it will be better for everyone as it will make the game more exciting and reward good players for their precision. Also timing doesn't to be strict, just look at pump it up's perfect window as it's an example for a judgement that is not too strict but doesn't allow inaccurate players to get away with pfcs so easily

[@-perge]

I love the idea of adding an unstable rate, as long as it’s just that. No penalties. No new judgements. It should be placed next to each section’s percentage making it very obvious *where* you rushed. FCs with spamming will still be FCs, *and* it allows FCs to be compared with more granularity. Plus it adds more playability to the game, since getting a lower UR is a new challenge for those that have already FC’ed. The question now is, will this change the meta too much? I’d say no, but I’m not a good player so I have nothing at stake.

[@zakizdaman]

@@-perge players who mash won't use it, players who don't will use it. In the end it doesn't matter much, as a lot of GH and CH players are not as into the timing and precision from most VSRG. Also, the AGDQ viewers aka average gamer will never appreciate the difference

[@exiledgoldfish6329]

Or just remove infinite front end. That's really all that needs to be done

[@doggo7514]

@@snil4 They ended up adding that to the game lol

[@droyal1994]

Spamming should die, I’ve always been apart of camp “spammed fc’s should be considered different”

[@TextureOfCouch]

Agreed; I accept ghosting for insane shit like Destruction Armageddon, but if someone just mashes random buttons really fast I cringe. This especially applies with ladders.

[@suchakreelaokom9494]

How about extends levant 🤔

[@SimplyAstonished]

@@suchakreelaokom9494 that song is just aids. I think it gets a pass

[@GHAddict112]

"spamming should die" LMAOOOOO I'M DEAD I LOVE IT

[@DjentleGiant]

Nothing but hot fax here aye

[@borealis227]

I can see why most people don't like spamming, myself included, but when you get to a point of skill where you are going for hard songs in which you might spam, learning methods is frustrating. The mind always thinks "why would I put unnecessary effort into hitting a section that I can hit on command without a method?" it all seems like a waste of time right? It takes unnecessary time out of your day to learn a method, and in the end a method is pretty useless. Not to mention always more consistent. That is why we need a game that prevents spamming if you ever want it to stop.

[@droyal1994]

Borealis you wrote all that to just say “I’m lazy and don’t like actually earning a hard fc” If your skill doesn’t deem you ready for a fc then you aren’t ready for a fc lmfao it’s simple as that, relying on spamming and trying to pass it off as a option of high skill is bogus

[@borealis227]

@@droyal1994 not totally wrong lol

[@Frif]

@@droyal1994 You're literally the only person who can call borealis "Not good enough for an FC" lmao

[@droyal1994]

FrostedGH that wasn’t a stab at his skill. That was more a general statement for people who only get fc’s because they spam and probably couldn’t have pulled it off if they actually tried reading the chart and using methods and you know the ones I’m talking about. Borealis is amazing and clearly can get hard fc’s and has. But I’m not gonna sit here and pretend like players like him and others haven’t sat and said things like “I don’t try that fc because you have to learn things” and that’s where I get disconnected entirely

[@98danielray]

one guy had the best idea imo.add an "early/late" hit window that shows statistics of how accurately the notes were hit. that would solve most of the problems

[@Furrett]

Spamming? I believe you mean *”LeafGreening”*

[@itsjakesm]

Jhlee player analysis when?

[@ruddk80]

Already released

[@ItsJappyHAH]

@@ruddk80 technically it wasn't out when he commented that so you can't say "already"

[@massi4h]

I definitely disagree with the fighting game comment. People who complain about spamming are not the competitive player, they are the average scrub who doesn't have a competitive mindset and doesn't look for a counter. Very rarely are things found in fighting games that are so spammable that they can't be beaten and get banned.

[@Apsandman]

Looking for this comment. People that complain about spam in fighting games are just trash. If they can't get past simple hado spam they'd get eaten alive by pros that actually know how to zone with it effectively.

[@c463]

Apsandman I agree to an extent. I don’t think people who complain about spam are bad, they just don’t know any counters. I’m not saying guide channels and counter channels on KZbin are good bc god they help noobs way more than they need it. It would make complaints like this less rampant if titles didn’t sell shit like unlockable content and fucking frame data. But as fighting games become more popular complaints like these will only become more frequent so all we can do is hope all the scrubs get weeded out. Btw have you ever heard a scrub complain about combo spam, it’s hilarious. Like some LTG level shit it’s too funny.

[@Apsandman]

Dude I've heard it all. Back then scrubs complained about everything, and they still do to this day. Block spam, combo spam, projectile spam, corner spam, whatever kind of dumb shit to justify their loss. What pisses me off is these are the kinds of people FGs are catering to these days leading to simplification of games and predatory practices (which are also partly pro's fault because I know a lot of professionals who are indifferent towards fucking FRAME DATA being paid DLC).

[@MrDarkhallows]

Is it that obvious when a player spam notes? I've been watching GH/CH for a long time and when there is too much notes, i can't see at all what the player is doing (bad camera - player too fast) It would have been great if you showed some examples of spamming. great vid nonetheless :)

[@reptarien]

This video is filled with examples, if you see a clip where notes are being hit 15 minutes before they hit the strikeline, they're spamming. Also the buttons flash a lot in those examples. 0:53 is probably one of the best examples

[@Cobalt985]

It's more about notes disappearing high on the highway and note receptors flashing way more than they should.

[@BOI91]

I 100% agree with you. It would be amazing if universes fc’s were without spamming.

[@TwinkleDobson]

tobegh3 did that in 2013

[@SilverBullet27188]

maybe a new scoring mode like j4vs j5 in stepmania could be implemented. Also the anti spamming measures could deter mappers from mapping tapping centric sections/charts.

[@Critirus]

Long time rhythm guy, I agree with this heavily. Although with that said, I've enjoyed the casual play style clone hero offers compared to squeezing for scores.

[@DrowseeGameplay]

Thank you

[@Whooooooops]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, definitly agree with you

[@guitarherorobloxgod]

Look, I agree that spamming takes less skill than actual methods used in high tier custom songs. The thing I disagree with is that a big group of players get salty when someone spams and gets the FC. Here's the biggest problem: everyone plays Clone Hero! For anyone saying "oh look, he FCed using those method", give them a game like GH2, or have them set their FPS to be much lower. I guarantee depending on the song, Clone Hero/GH3 are the only engines that method is going to work with (with high FPS).

[@jesuschrist5417]

It still takes a lot of skill to spam properly in my opinion. Not everybody has the finger speed to do it.

[@guitarherorobloxgod]

@@jesuschrist5417 after learning how to do zigs, there isn't too much to knowing how to do it.

[@SimplyAstonished]

tbh I use spamming as a crutch to often. When I put my ass in practice mode for 10 hours I hate myself but its so nice and pays off. For example, I've been practicing really technical stuff recently. I'd 100% agree practicing being more technical and accurate helps with every aspect of your game play. Now when I hit a section that I had spammed in the past I get so much more satisfaction out of it. And honest it feels so good hearing the song and your tapping going along with the rhythm

[@AranaMatthews]

what makes a man dangerous isn't whether he can fight, it's if he can show more malice. same goes in competitive gaming. it doesn't matter the way u achieve something, people only care about the score. although i 100% agree for casual gaming, competitive players are gonna abuse everything they can.

[@MegaQwertification]

interesting vid. spamming makes me sometimes feel like I haven't earned a section FC in clone hero, which honestly makes it less fun agree w/ everything you said btw

[@Frif]

Something that should be noted is the difference between purposefully ghosting notes to use a less-physical speed intensive method and outright pressing random buttons. For instance, the clip you used in 2:01 wasn't spamming by any definition of the word. It definitely wasn't fret-accurate play by any means, but it wasn't completely rawdogging the section without learning a method. in some situations, ghosting is outright necessary to hit many sections and shouldn't be viewed in the same light as pure spamming. But yes, I did spam that one part in patterns 4+ 125 lol

[@Frif]

As an example for what I consider necessary ghosting, the end pattern of Volcano solo B in Destruction Armageddon. Without some absolutely ridiculous quad finger disjoint rake method, the pattern isn't non-ghostable. There's also situations where not ghosting a section is possible, but cranks the difficulty of what would otherwise be an easy section way up higher than it has any right to be. Such as the method I used in Solo 5O of my "The Good Ending" FC, a red anchor and hitting yellow blue orange zigs as quad zigs. That's definitely not the "Accurate Method", but it's the smarter method when tackling a section that's 10 minutes into a nerve-inducing ridiculous run.

[@Frif]

Do I personally think spamming shouldn't be a thing? Yes, for sure - I hope that they implement a mis-fret system that limits this sort of thing on a future engine build. the difference between mis-fretting and ghosting here would be where the input lies. if a green/yellow trill is the case here, and you hit them like green red yellow zigs, that would count as a ghost, where as a green yellow blue zig would count as a mis-fret. That's an extreme example, but situations where you're moving towards the next note but hitting an extra note wouldn't count as a mis-fret under that idea.

[@droyal1994]

FrostedGH I was gonna use that exact example “Volcano Solo B” pretty much everything you said here is perfectly on point. AND THATS WHY I LUVVVVVS UUUUU

[@derpizzaman1050]

I'd say there should be a counter for button presses, where it shows you how many times you pressed any of the fret buttons in a run. maybe even make it times pressed/notes hit.

[@Thesnakerox]

I like the idea of CH having "Inputs" and "Accuracy" statistics. Basically the game would count the number of times you press a button, divide the number of notes hit by it, and give you that ratio. This would mean that people could look at an FC and if they see, for example, 50-odd% accuracy, they would be able to judge it differently from an FC with 99-100% accuracy.

[@WraxTV]

Count number of empty fret pressed between notes, preferably only ones where the distance between note A and note B is less than a quarter or half measure. (We all like to press frets at the start of a song or during slow parts to cool our nerves.) Preferably don't even have this impact the score, but have it show up next to the score so everyone can easily judge for themselves if the score is valid or not.

[@THREA]

Video is very well done, awesome stuff. I 100% agree with your opinion on judging a player with methods over spam. For anyone reading, remember that playing clone hero is meant to be fun. Enjoy yourself and focus on yourself.

[@rogueetj2996]

Incredibly surprised this game doesnt have a timing window! I always thought CH had one, I dont play very often because I dont have a guitar to use but wow I hope some people transition away from spam tech soon would make the game more balanced

[@borealis227]

Nah it does, it's just pretty loose compared to other games

[@Adventium_]

It has a timing window, but not an early/late window. You either hit the note or you don't.

[@belcarra]

the timing window only punishes strums just so you know

[@BebxOfficial]

Is there a potential way to introduce an overtap stat? I don't know anything about guitar hero, but perhaps a statistic that tracks how many times a player has tapped something within a timing window (so not during breaks) could be used as a sort of tie-breaker, with more overtap resulting in a score that is worth less than a score with less? Or even just an overtap percentage stat, where the percent of notes:overtap ratio is used as a percentage in how much score to remove from the final score, once the chart is completed (so this doesn't factor in combo, it just acts as a solid percentage based penalty). This also gives a bonus to players who have very good technique versus a player who slightly overtaps - the player with better technique would get a better score, all other things equal. This raises the skill ceiling while not being brutally punishing (i.e, resetting combo). So yeah, say a song has 500 notes, and a player presses the frets 550 times during the song, excluding breaks. Random numbers I'm throwing out here, but that's 50 extra fret presses. This is 10% extra presses than needed, and so a 10% deduction is given. Obviously don't do that exactly, that's a brutal amount of points to deduct, but still that's the general idea. Someone more versed with guitar hero could adjust that idea to fit more suitibly.

[@Oscarous64]

Do you think an fc using rake tapping would be less impressive or unfair than an fc using alt-tapping?

[@jaskelsin1409]

Leo Brideau spamming doesn't take any skill to do though while raking takes a lot of practice

[@Oscarous64]

@@jaskelsin1409 i still think that lukeegh's fc of silvera 150% speed is more impressive than mine as he alt-tapped the trills and i raked them.

[@jaskelsin1409]

@@Oscarous64 high speed alt tapping is definitely impressive but I meant raking is better than slamming your hands against the guitar as fast as possible so the game thinks you're doing good

[@NexusSomnia]

Do with this what you will, but I'm reminded of the strategy of "bootlegging" in Rock Band drums, where players would save drum fill sections to skip especially hard parts of the song to secure an FC more easily. To the point where some videos would add "no bootleg" or some equivalent to the title to further entice viewers. And really I think advertising "no spam" is all that's needed to make a run that much more impressive to viewers.

[@RazorL1ly]

What about a system where the first couple notes thatre spammed have the normal window, then the window starts getting smaller and smaller the more it is spammed?

[@danielmueller7704]

I hear leafgreen crying

[@alphabrother6823]

Just watch Aby’s chad raking compilation and you can understand how abusive spamming is

[@Vandius24]

An easy fix for this would be to count how many button presses happened during the song. You can still give spammers 100% but they would have high presses and the best players would be trying for the lowest presses.

[@reptarien]

I really like the idea mentioned in CH's blog post last night -- making a "precision" game modifier in the song screen to set earlier and more precise windows. Then, people who just play for fun can spam all they want, but the people who want to show off true skill can turn it on. IDRC either way tho, I could get used to a precise window after playing rock band for so long

[@kiwi5slayer]

just play with vsync then

[@reptarien]

@@kiwi5slayer I mean that's fair for some people, I have many reasons as to why that would be a very bad horrid idea.

[@Apsandman]

@@reptarien Does VSync do anything specific to CH?

[@reptarien]

@@Apsandman It syncs your framerate with your monitor's refresh rate, so if you have a 60hz monitor it will be 60 frames, etc. It pretty much means you can only ever input 60 times a second which is still a lot but can make the difference between hitting a section or not

[@Apsandman]

@@reptarien Ah so it's only more prone to dropping mash inputs because of low poll rate.

[@Darknesakiller1]

Can someone please explain what exactly "ghosting" is? I'm having trouble understanding

[@TheLastScoot]

When the sequence of notes you hit for a section is mostly accurate but involves tapping some extra notes that aren't there. Complicated sections can be easier to mentally process when you don't try remembering to not hit certain notes that are intuitive to hit. e.g. a YR, YG, RG sequence may be easier to remember as just hitting YRG three times, and this would be ghosting. Another example would be hitting a descending OBR triplet as OBYR, as that way feels easier for some players.

[@Darknesakiller1]

@@TheLastScoot Thanks bro that helped me understand it a lot better.

[@Thisisausername556]

I love how accessible clone hero is as a game. I wouldn't want to take that away from the game just because the top 1%-2% of players want it. So whatever decision might get made about this topic, I hope it doesn't detract too much from just how fun the game is to play currently. I've been playing since GH1 through RB3ish when I stopped buying the games. I got decent at the game then, but CH taught me more techniques and was just a more enjoyable of a game and I went back and demolished my old scores first try (and I thought I was pretty damn good back in the day until that happened XD). The fun could be due to the forgiving hit window, PCMasterrace fps, and definitely the near infinite song choice, so I just hope that whatever you guys decide to do, you don't ruin the game for casual players, as I believe most people who play are playing casually and for fun (even tho I do stream sometimes, and I do try to FC or get PBs, I really just play cuz it's fun).

[@sir380]

What if we put how many inputs were made were displayed at the end of the song at the stats screen

[@Post-Truth_Cephalopod]

Quite a simple soloution that won't change the game but will easily show and credit the more fluent playstyle would be to have point deduction for over tapping. Easily implemented also. The main problem would come from holding a note before a strumming section. But it's the only system I can think of that won't kill the feel of the game.

[@michaelmacari5647]

Darkly has left the chat

[@Joe-do1ig]

I always play clone hero , but i'm confused... When i play with keyboard or a guitar , i have to use the strum bar to play the HOPO / Forced notes on songs. :thinking:

[@Egolithz]

Only time I somewhat spam is during a tapping section with ghost notes that has a fast strum like portion. Even then, I do it just cause I haven't finished learning how to rake fret

[@dgdev1024]

Just had a thought: Why not make an early window an optional modifier?

[@shikitashi]

this video rocks nice job dude, I also completely agree with Will's tweet you showed at the end of the video

[@kittysgomeoww]

they could just add a setting to turn on. then you can have runs titled like "100% FC -insert the name of setting-"

[@hkr11128]

something that would probably help differentiate an end screen of a spammer from a legit player would be showing the amount of controller inputs during the song. If a song has 1000 notes (let's say it's all taps) and the player had 1500 inputs, he probably is spamming (I'm probably exaggerating a lot but you get the point. I'm also not taking into account anchored notes and pullofs)

[@idioticbosd7995]

Spam,might be only necessary to patterns that aren’t human possible (multi key staging bursts)

[@Tyl_r]

The 300,000 Note Song is the creators way of saying "Fuck spammers"

[@Patashu]

If you want to prevent spamming then come up with a scoring system or timing engine that discourages spamming. Nothing short of that is enforceable.

[@TheMe9595]

What if they make another difficulty level in the game? Like an expert plus which has the gh2 timing or something like that?

[@09h13]

This problem has gotten way worse nowadays. I do hope top players are still having fun playing like this, but as a viewer, watching CH content is quickly becoming boring (thankfully, there are still some top players that use clean methods!).

[@Poke711]

maybe there should be a option to voluntarily put a early note penalty to prevent spamming. Top players would likely enable it for the rep while people that fc with it off will be looked at different since its a lower skill level.

[@juli7xxxxx]

Great video! (also in Will's clip at 3:03 you can see my name in the bottom left so I'm basically famous now)

[@ethanmartin2781]

This issue has only gotten worse. Honestly, I don't think the early window is a bad idea. No need to add an acc counter, but just somehow count spammed notes. Lightly spammed FCs don't necessarily need to be invalidated, but FCs with less spam would be more valued. It would add much needed nuance to the game.

[@ThatFuckinGame]

Just count the ghost notes between notes hitted. create an easy algorythm, total notes hit as 100% minus ghost notes %. Create penalties the lower the % is. If for example its 95%+, they don´t get any penalty, if its 100% they get a bonus. if its lower than 95%, they get a penalty in the score. They can also create ratings. for example make an FC 100% for example. In any case there are countless ways of adding a system and not make clown hero worse than it is compared to any other rhythm game that takes itself seriously.

[@True_Rarity]

Did anybody else start laughing at the 0:53 clip? or just me? Also i think the only possible way to fully fix this problem is slowly adding in an early hit penalty one update at a time, in certain scenarios. starting with tapping notes, and more specifically when two notes of the same color are hit back to back, then on the next update, add in an early hit penalty on tapped two note chords, then tapped three note chords, then the rest of the tap notes, and slowly cover all types of notes over the span of a year or so, so all players have slowly been accustomed to it.

[@olmanggg3]

What's the difference between ghosting and spamming and how can I different between them.

[@timmyp7]

So let's say you're playing a descending triplet of Orange, Blue, then Red. It would be considered ghosting if you performed a descending quad (Orange, Blue, Yellow, Red) to hit the pattern. Hitting Yellow wasn't necessary, but it might feel more comfortable or consistent or whatever. Spamming is disregarding the pattern completely, hitting as many frets as possible to hit the notes.

[@olmanggg3]

@@timmyp7 So... You are telling me that in all the FC that I have seen all of them have spam at least in one situation? Are you telling me that the souless 4 FC is not a truly FC?? If that the reason of this video men... I feel so bad... So bad that I would actually stop watching GH videos It just feel so bad...

[@TheDantheman12121]

I am not a great player but just came to clone hero and notice i hit things and i am amazed because it just seemed like i was randomly tappign loads of notes. I mean i was trying to hit it but never expected to.

[@exiledgoldfish6329]

They will be removing infinite front end with Strikeline which is what allows spamming. It was ONLY in GH3 and removed from the next GH so it is speculated it was actually a bug. CH was based off the feel of GH3 so it was put in the game.

[@paydaygh9388]

What if clone hero had a smaller hit window as a modifier?

[@guymanguy]

i miss the days when stuff like this was the only thing we were worried about.

[@Caqwand]

10/10 video, though I would've liked a small discussion of chad/meme raking as that is the most obvious form of spamming. It can be difficult to tell on faster sections (for me) if people are spamming or just playing that fast.

[@Oreotrix1]

I remember going back to my old copy of guitar hero world tour on my Xbox 360 and finding it incredibly difficult because of how spoiled I had gotten from playing Clone hero. In CH you can hold a button before a tap as long as you want but on GH:WT you have to tap at the exact moment the note reaches the strum line. Same thing goes for HOPO's.

[@bananya6020]

Maybe there should be something percent extra taps to weed out spammers versus ghosttapping just to inform everyone? idk because i dont play clone hero but you know, random suggestions...

[@gm0331]

This is why I play Rock Band 3, the engine forces me to come up with weird methods that people could just spam and get away with

[@XanTheDragon]

The other issue with spamming is that for learning players like myself, it kind of tarnishes the learned skill as well. Sure, you can spam, but you won't learn how to play the game and most of your plays on fast songs will be luck based. It's very difficult to not resort to it for parts that I have no idea how to play. Still, I avoid it for the reasons outlined in this video as well as the worry that I won't actually _learn_ the game.

[@kelecat7094]

going to cite a term of game theory Dominant Strategy: A strategy is dominant if, regardless of what any other players do, the strategy earns a player a larger payoff than any other. Hence, a strategy is dominant if it is always better than any other strategy, for any profile of other players' actions. of course, the accuracy of this varies depending on the player and chart

[@thesupremepotato7850]

watching because it was in my recommended i've never played or really watched clone hero

[@josh_uz1520]

I spammed a 774bpm section in MMK so fast that the spamming wasn't noticeable

[@xdeathwalkingterrorx]

Dude, youre killin it on the content game. Keep up the great work you do.

[@DPGBehler]

Came back to this video after watching a “great Soulless 200% score” that was half spam tapping difficult sections. I find spamming dishonorable and unimpressive. Ghost notes are one thing, abusing a lax engine to give the appearance of skill is silly.

[@ThatFuckinGame]

Yeah but CH players are crying because they can´t abuse this system. imagine being the clown of rhythm games. They can make a super easy system, "Ghost notes" - total notes hit and make a % of difference between the two. if the overall % its above 95% they don´t get any penalty, if its 100% they get a bonus, if they get anything below 95% the score its lowered and the penalty its increased the more difference there is. And this is just the basics, any rythm games that takes itself seriously has a timing window instead of a super large hit window. Early / Late and all of that. they think the game would die if they get more complex?, da fuq, DDR / PUMP IT UP, wich are ARCADE dance games that are almost 24 years old are still alive and going.

[@GreatScooty]

To me, it comes across kind of like screen watching in split-screen games. You can't stop someone from doing it if they're going to do it. If it's there, it's going to be utilized by people who don't mind abusing it.

[@McSkinny8]

Pretty much why I never cared about gh3+, engines are far too lenient. You can also overstrum and not break combo.

[@matthewdrury6443]

Same. This is why the last GH game I bought was GH80s. I just never really like the post GH2 engine.

[@Nitroausome]

McSkinny8 what do you mean overstrum without breaking combo? These days with wiitars over-strumming is a players worst nightmare

[@McSkinny8]

@@Nitroausome On a three note green/red/yellow sustain for example you can strum while holding green, then strum while holding green/red, then strum while holding all three notes and hit the sustain without overstrumming. Also trying to strum sections with ho/pos causes overstrums when it shouldn't. I can strum though hopo sections in gh2 and rock band games with no issues. The most consistent way to hit ttfaf intro strumming for example is using the hopos, which feels so counter intuitive.

[@ma_sonch]

@@McSkinny8 Very late response but that's not overstrumming, that's just how strum notes work. Plus strumming hopos definitely doesn't overstrum considering that they eat strums all the time

[@McSkinny8]

@@ma_sonch In harmonix games I never worry about break combo strumming hopos. In gh3+ its just different and breaks combo pretty easily, this is why most people use nearly every single hopo. Try finding a ttfaf fc video where people don't use the hopos in the intro strumming, its pretty rare.

[@shadowscoundrel]

Maybe do something similar to OSU? So someone could have an FC but have a rank of C due to not being accurate. Maybe Points are rewarded as a bonus depending on the rank adding on to the motivation to improve? So you'd see it as such on the song select screen: Dragonforce - Through the Fire and Flames FC | SS [or whatever they end up using to show Accuracy] Seeing a song without a Max Accuracy Rank would drive people to be better and show who spams and who don't.

[@Androwomeda]

giving people more points for accuracy would invalidate any scores that were achieved before the mechanic was added.

[@Androwomeda]

@Alice no it doesnt lmao

[@Androwomeda]

@Alice ah yes, because fixing solo bonuses totally means that we should go ahead and *overhaul the entire score system*

[@Androwomeda]

@Alice also v24 isnt even out yet lmfao, its only in ptb and the score bonuses are more than likely a bug

[@Hero3life]

Why not just make it an option like frets on fire, where you could change how wide the hit window is? Also, as another means, having a counter like OSU where you get a bad, good, great, fantastic, or whatever. (Obviously I'm not an OSU player) But I do like that you're getting this out there. I always thought it was something that no one really wanted to bring up because it's easier tbh. I try my best not to do this, but sometimes playing fun songs like memes and whatnot, it makes it more enjoyable when something comes up and you randomly hit something crazy. There are drawbacks going both ways, so hopefully we can at least make these changes in the future.

[@theermac6024]

There are some songs that would become impossible to fc without spamming. It's like one player (which I don't remember the name) said: "Stupid songs deserve stupid methods"

[@cytyzent]

Why not something similar to a judge system that was implemented in Stepmania? One of the earlier comments from CH said that they wanted CH to have a more easily accessible game for people than what RB's window had. I mean, I think a lot of us remember how long it took for songs like Thrasher to get FC'd, even though the only problem was the strumming timing window. But instead of an accuracy based judgement window, more of a hit based window, implementing the early window you talked about. So having one judgement or setting with the judgement window, and one without. This way, those that do manage to play the chart on the tighter window can prove they did. On Stepmania/Etterna, there's the score screen that shows what accuracy judgement you played on, and this would work the same. You'd easily be able to just change the setting on the song selection, and it would show up on the score screen to validate.

[@LocalAitch]

I agree fully. In that regard, I consider GH3 a stain on the community, as it fostered this desire for a looser input that was carried over to CH. In my opinion, the true test of method-based accuracy is on the Harmonix engine, which doesn't reward spamming at all.

[@monkeyskater105]

Why don’t we just record how many extra notes were pressed and deducted from that number ?

[@kople5563]

Leafgreen is crying in the corner

[@entrace1]

I'm shit at CH. My best FC is Slow Ride. But still I dont like spamming. It makes no sense to me. And I like to watch Acai. None of these clips was from Acai. Respect to him, he doesnt spam. I like Acai.

[@stephgh1flamyphantom230]

learning the methods is like the fun part of the game right?

[@Noshied]

I'd say everyone gets their fun from whatever sources they find enjoyable

[@stephgh1flamyphantom230]

Saika this game is fun and tourcher at the same time

[@benge1309]

i dont think that learning methods for buckethead style section are on the top of ch players fun list

[@Androwomeda]

not always. some sections are really not fun to do properly at all, such as prevail and writing solo.

[@thegourmetgolfer5544]

I wouldn't mind seeing an input/notes counter if possible. Doesn't take away the FC but does expose if it was done with spamming

[@thebudderdanny]

That wouldn't really work for a lot more tappy stuff since a majority of the playerbase inputs descending/ascending patterns as zigs since it easier :P

[@ThatFuckinGame]

@@thebudderdanny Thats just excusing cheating the engine, what skill is in that?. A basic count of early hit and late hit at the end that cuts the score its enough. Any decent rhythm game has this.

[@Neothemod]

very good video, honestly the spamming stuff is why I really don't feel any gratification in playing or fcing anything in Clone Hero anymore. I don't tend to spam and try to hit with proper methods and accuracy as much as I can. This attitude towards it has made some of my personal best FCs (25 or 6 to 4, Beast and the Harlot, Crazy Train RB3) feel like they don't actually matter at all and are pointless. Being barraged by the talking of spamming and engine talks has quite literally sucked the fun and gratification out of the game, for me, completely

[@shadowthefox1]

Just add a GH2 button and the community will take care of it

[@DragoniteOW]

I watched the video and still don't really understand what spamming actually means as opposed to ghosting notes. I feel like you could've taken a bit more time to explain the difference between those. Is spamming just ghosting a lot of notes on purpose?

[@MrMurdoom]

I just hit whatever I feel is right in those tapping sections lol i have no idea what I'm doing I guess.

[@macse7en]

Same lmao. But it's good to slow sections down and at least try to learn the methods.