EV repair ££££ why is it so expensive? Aren't they simple?

[@robsmith1a]

Main dealer repair costs for almost any car can be ridiculous. They want to incentivise you into a new car a lot of the time. I use a good independent whenever I can. They also try and fix things in cases where main dealers will often replace. Keep up the good work.

[@steves427]

Certainly agree, but get a good one & they can be well worth the extra costs. I had to resort to using a main dealer to replace an oil cooler. My local garage had a booking time of two weeks, which at the time was not convenient for me. However I found of more concern, the apparent shortages of pretty essential components & the potential delays & hassle it caused. My main Vauxhall dealership here in Norfolk "were unable" to source replacement oil cooler for an Astra J, be it a GM or an equivalent OEM item urgently. Thank goodness for Amazon Prime, for supplying an OEM item within 24 hours of ordering & £300.00 less than than the GM item too! Also various spares suppliers on Ebay who were later on were able to supply later on a couple of engine mountings & several bolts that had been found missing at the initial "work inspection" stage (photographic evidence provided) & that yet the dealer again "were unable" to source. Anyway all is well now.

[@ptonpc]

I have a 20 year old ICE car. When EVs started becoming common I thought it would be a good thing, build them to be worked on, reasonably priced parts, recyclable materials etc. But it seems the manufacturers decided "Let's gouge as much as we can out of the plebs". I have heard that many insurance companies would rather just write off a car than go through the effort of having it repaired (This is also the case for modern ICE cars).

[@anauthor1440]

I see more ev in going to brakers yards of insurance companies

[@StartledPancake]

Thats a very calm and reasoned rant, for a man standing in front of all that mechanical detritus. The law of right to repair should include the ability to repair, otherwise it doesnt help much. If you look at Bosch powered ebikes loads of them are scrapped because the BMS in the battery fails and a new battery costs more than the bike (if its still available). The BMS itself should cost only a few euros and take 15 minutes to solder onto the battery, but Bosch deliberately coded it to make it impossible for shops to replace them. So all these perfectly good bikes which cost thousands end up being thrown away. For sure manufacturers aren't going to make repairs any easier unless they are forced to, as customer loyalty doesnt seem to be an important factor for them.

[@fredfred2363]

IMO, it's like printer cartridges. You can't simply swap parts without the car knowing you've done it. There's been a step change in entry requirements to fixing cars. A basic toolbox isn't enough now. And not just EVs either. Phones. TVs. Washing machines. Power tools...

[@glennlambert5112]

Hi new Subscriber. This is my main reason for not going electric. Who is going to repair it . Living in rural wales there are no independant EV repairers. Even though I have a very wide circle of friends only one has taken the EV plunge. Yes you can now buy some cheaper EVs but the range is poor. I was thinking of one as a second car for the mostly short journeys but now they are not tax free plus lack of parking I have shelved that idea. So my trusty and extremely reliable Mitsubishi stays in ths family.

[@johngibson3837]

Hey up Gary really nice to see this even though i don't like evs but it's so cool to hear you talk of actually mending stuff which is probably considered old school these day so well done mate and I've given you a sub

[@garycevrepairs]

Thanks!

[@johngibson3837]

@@garycevrepairs that was super quick mate nice to see you're on with it like how you came across in your video

[@teardowndan5364]

For battery-side issues, we need modular standards so bad battery packs can easily be repaired or upgraded one module at a time. If such standards existed, we'd have 5-10kWh modules with prices that track closer to cell prices. Pop the battery armor plate/cover off from the bottom, remove the problematic module(s), pop the new one(s) in, put the cover back on, done, $1500-2000 per module, 2h of time to remove the cover and put it back on including removing sealant residue and putting new sealant on, ~5min per module for the swap itself. The other major obstacle to EV repair is how access to most modules is locked behind expensive scan tool and OEM server subscriptions. Having the parts does you no good without access to the necessary programming tools, firmware updates and whatever other software locks OEMs put in their hardware to prevent DIY/independent service.

[@dolgorwel]

Regulators need to get involved and it will probably come that manufacturers will be forced to design cars that can be repaired easily and affordably. These cars should go on for 20 years or more. Perhaps those manufacturers that produce poor quality cars need to be named and shamed.

[@garycevrepairs]

Absolutely agree - often the parts can’t be bought from the actual manufacturer, eg electrical parts used on the Zoe from Infineon, only as part of a larger unit from Renault. Cheers.

[@xxxxghostxxxx2052]

The regulation must like FiA formula 1 engine penalty. Like if more than 3 small components fail it'll get X amount of fine, if something related to battery or motor it'll ban the sales of that model of the year.

[@TheGuruStud]

Hahahahahhah. Good one

[@brendanpells912]

Whose side do you think the regulators are on? I'll give you a clue, it's not the consumer. The model of selling new cars on 3-4 year leases has encouraged car makers to design cars that are less durable. They're no longer good, just good enough to get through the warranty.

[@handyjayes1]

20? That should be a totally worse case scenario for the price of them.

[@rogeroliver5083]

Hi Gary, I agree with everything you said , things will improve in time when more garages accept electric cars as the best option. I am very pleased with mine and would not return to an ice car . KBO Roger in Norfolk.

[@mbak7801]

If you have the money and space it seems non starting EVs at the auctions sell for peanuts as everyone is too nervous about taking them on. A window of opportunity if you also have the equipment and skills to handle a fairly common car.

[@jugganaut33]

Too nervous for good reason. Thermal run away and battery shorting is guaranteed death. Cant open the doors. Can’t roll down the windows. Battery engulfs the car in under a minute. Burns for an hour. Insuring a damaged or defective EV will be crazy.

[@spankeyfish]

​@@jugganaut33Getting locked in the car depends on the door design, not the drivetrain. There's ICE cars with electrically actuated door catches too; a few years ago an old guy died when his Corvette's battery went flat on a summer day and locked him in. Deloreans were also notorious for locking their owners in and that was in the 80s. Electrically actuated door catches should be banned along with keyless entry.

[@steves427]

At the moment it makes more sense to keep that old or even no so old ice vehicle running if at all possible. Get yourself a Haynes (or Clymer or similar) manual for guidance & a basic diagnostic analyser for when the engine management light comes on, once you find out where to plug it in & a can of MAF (mass air flow) / sensor spray cleaner to clean mucky sensors & away you go. Any doubt there's always "You Tube"!

[@rogerfroud300]

They mostly aren't. Most of what needs fixing is simple brakes, suspension and steering. The power train is very simple too. The only thing that makes anything expensive is the required training to handle the high voltage side of the system. At the moment there aren't many who are trained, so those repairs are more expensive than they need to be. There hasn't been enough time for 3rd party suppliers to produce even cheaper spare parts yet, but that will come. It's not about complexity. Early adopters always pay more for their purchases.

[@gerbre1]

I don't understand why EV manufacturers make the cars so expensive to repair. People won't buy the cars or they won't buy the cars anymore if repairs are needed. Manufactures will disappear if they work against customers.

[@Brinslade]

Even ICE cars are getting too technical and parts are expensive. Getting a gearbox with twin clutches is extortionate. At least the rules regarding servicing means in the UK and EU a car doesn't need to be serviced by a main dealer to keep the warranty valid. Governments need to do more to enforce the right to repair that the EU is bringing in.

[@quademasters249]

People are moving toward leasing ev's. They're disposable cars with massive depreciation and high insurance rates. There's really no point to owning an old EV.

[@aaron___6014]

I do, it all comes down to money.

[@dizzy2020]

First problem is limited people trained to work on them - which means those people can charge more and when regular mechanics are already charging £60/70/80 per hour already - that gets pricey REAL FAST Second problem is that EVs take the "many parts cannot be repaired, they must be replaced" problem and makes it FAR worse. The entire 'stack' is really just 4/5 separate "units" - a failure of any one requires a whole new "unit" and none of those "units" are £20 on Amazon :) Where things are REALLY going to get out-of-hand is in newer EVs (and non-EVs to a certain extent) where a LOT of problems aren't even hardware-related, they are SOFTWARE based. The Apps and control systems in your vehicle may require regular adjustment/updates/flashing - regular diagnostic devices can't deal with that stuff - more and more "systems" will be total "black boxes" which only dealers can debug/understand/replace There's a reason a LOT of people run older cars- there's a reason it's hard to sell used electric cars - none of this is going to improve...

[@garycevrepairs]

Interesting take on it, thanks.

[@nickmarshall7019]

I had an M G ZS EV from new in 2020 and was fearing the problems down the line with defects and failures. Had a road accident early we this year and the car was written off for half its original price. Decided to sit out EVs for a few years and reluctantly bought a petrol ICE

[@quademasters249]

@@nickmarshall7019 It's smart to wait out early EV's.

[@Thereishope664]

If you own an out of warranty I-Pace then I'd advise getting an extended Jaguar warranty. It'll cost £1000 but it gives you peace of mind and they'll cover everything. My I-pace had it's boot gas struts replaced under the warranty (they cost £260 each). Servicing costs are minimal and every 2 years.

[@garycevrepairs]

Good idea, the boot hatch struts are very common to fail. Cheers

[@steveunderwood3683]

Even when you try to work with the car maker's own dealers, they end up shipping an EV to somewhere far away, as they only seem to have a few workshops around the country set up to service EVs. Only the most basic regular servicing seems to occur at the nearest dealer's workshop (unless that happens to be one of the limited number that handle EVs, of course).

[@garycevrepairs]

Yes I’ve seen cars being moved around the country if it needs a battery repair for example. They really don’t seem to invest in training their technicians well nationwide. It’s almost as if they would rather sell you a new car than fix the old one!!

[@deansh8506]

You Sir are doing an amazing job in keeping these EV's on the road. Have you thought about doing a training service to teach the previous generation of mechanics how to work on these EV's. I find it shocking that these Zoe motors are only lasting around the 100k mark! I have just been through a similar issue on my partners E-Niro. It developed the 'wheel of fortune' noise when applying torque at low speeds. Kia decided to change the reduction gearbox, 6 weeks later the noise returned and now have replaced the electric motor for the new generation E712 motor replacing the original E710. This was on a 3 year old E-Niro with 45k on the clock! It seems a very common issue across the Kia/Hyundai group and many videos on KZbin with people with the same issue. They have basically been engineered to only last a certain amount of time. Luckily I was covered by the 7 year Kia warranty. After this latest situation I am inclined to stick with Kia for my next car just for the 7 year warranty alone! Keep up the good work mate 👍

[@garycevrepairs]

Thanks, I’ve heard of the motor/reduction gear issue on the Kia/Hyundai models, seems like a manufacturing issue. Motors should really last nigh on forever…

[@spankeyfish]

It's not just Renault and Hyundai/Kia. First gen Tesla motors had issues with a coolant seal failing, filling the motor with coolant. There's even an aftermarket part to bypass the problem part of the loop.

[@garysmith5025]

Is that an early e-Niro? I thought they'd solved that issue for vehicles made from about March 2020 onwards.

[@deansh8506]

@@garycevrepairs many videos on KZbin suggest Kia has used inferior bearings where as tesla use ceramic beefy bearings and that they will outlast the car. Similar issue on the Zoe I belive? Cheap inferior bearings which have a 100k lifespan?

[@deansh8506]

@@garysmith5025 May 2021 registered with the facelift interior dash. It had the 710 motor. Now replaced for the 712.

[@Brinslade]

Seems like a market gap for reconditioning parts, such as motors, compressors etc. is now open and could be very profitable to supply needed parts. Opportunity knocks!

[@garycevrepairs]

Indeed, I’ve rebuilt Zoe motors for a few garages.

[@stevebishop1161]

AC compressor for a VW golf is £800, and is belt driven so doesn’t have a motor. So the Zoe AC compressor is about right for around £1000 A Golf replacement engine is around £9000 from VW and then fitting. It’s all about the same if you looking at new parts and garage labour costs.

[@garycevrepairs]

Interesting, thanks

[@lithgowwilson5157]

You would have to say though that for what is in either of those units ( the compressors) they are WAY too expensive, running a modern day car is just becoming a joke cost wise.....

[@khalidacosta7133]

The difference is... inside that ICE engine, all the rotating parts, use bearings. Some ball, some sleeve... all lubricated with the engine oil. Which is changed, regularly, extending the lifespan of those bearings to get to the moon and back. The EV's? Sealed ball bearings inside the motor. Eventually, that ball bearing will fail and for a £20 part, you need a £9k motor. That's the problem. These things are NOT user serviceable.

[@garysmith5025]

@@khalidacosta7133 I was working on a ventilation system this week that was installed over 17 years ago. It has two 90kW motor/fan assemblies run alternately 24/7 for a week at a time, that means each has now run for over 75000 hours. There are two sealed bearings in each motor and two for each fan, all are still original. 75k hours is the equivalent of a car covering nearly 2 million miles. There's no reason why good quality, correctly sized, bearings in an EV motor can't outlive the car. Remember, you change oil in an ICE because it becomes contaminated with fuel, water, combustion products and wear debris from cold starts.

[@quademasters249]

@@garysmith5025 This. If you look at Teslas which weight as much as a large US truck, the suspension is spindly and the bearings are small. There was a report that many Tesla suspensions won't pass TUV 3 years on. These things are failing because their bearings are unable to handle the massive torque of the engines. Wheel bearings on most cars are sealed bearings too. Many go 200,000 miles.

[@garysmith5025]

This is a problem that has got progressively worse since cars first took to the road. They have become more complex because we want nice styling, spacious interior, power steering, AC, etc, etc, but just as significant is efficiency of manufacture has been the priority which is at odds with the ability to repair and even carry out routine servicing. Just look at what it takes to replace the timing belt on many modern engines, that's a cost the owner will face on at least one occasion and probably more during a car's life. The Zoe may be plagued by this motor bearing fault, but in reality it will affect probably no more than 5%-10% of cars. Certainly EVs, and indeed any car, could be made much easier to repair, give them a nice big engine bay, separate the major components and there you have it. The problem is they would look like a major step backwards so wouldn't sell. However, as repair businesses embrace EVs over the next few years they'll develop methods for simplifying repair of common faults (remember when valve stem oil seals was a "head off" job until it became common practice to hold the valves with compressed air), also I fully expect the spares industry to come on board with remanufactured parts and exchange deals.

[@MrWobling]

Could HEVRA publish a list of "repair friendly" vehciles - so consumers shopping for used EVs buy with confidence?

[@garycevrepairs]

Hi, there is a list of hevra supported vehicles here hevra.org.uk/hevra-supported-models-list/

[@terryhayward7905]

So in conclusion. Q: why are EV repairs so expensive ? A: Because they are expensive. The only reason is that the manufacturers are gouging the customers to pay for the research to develop new models. If you buy an EV today, you are paying to develop new models tomorrow.

[@guycoletta6466]

It’s all about economy of scale. As EVs become more and more prevalent prices will become cheaper. Like any new technology?

[@rkan2]

It doesn't matter which vehicle you have if you repair them at the stealership lol 😅

[@garycevrepairs]

😆

[@toyotaprius79]

Business externalisation of cost, including the costs of abandoning training and adaptation to new energy vehicles that are now over a decade old.

[@WhiskeyGulf71]

Answer to the title; because they are still in the minority of vehicles on the road, which makes them uncommon. A lot of garages won't touch EVs because they don't know enough about them, they were trained on ICE vehicles as mechanics & have worked for however long being a mechanic, not an electrician.

[@paddyodoors2757]

They arent simple they are just different, instead of a thermo dynamic engine with lots of parts they are electrochemical with lots of parts and for alot people they are a rubber nail. Ev sales are not really going up dealers are just window dressing to avoid fines.

[@kellyeye7224]

Mass-produced electronics are DIRT CHEAP. If those defective parts fail for 'electronic reasons' (which I suspect is mostly the case) then they should/could be fixed cheaply BUT for the part-coding the manufacturers are forcing that makes them DELIBERATELY more expensive. All planned. All controlled.

[@garycevrepairs]

We have various methods to get around coding of parts.

[@alanc1406]

Is the compressor link coded to the vehicle also.

[@Mladjasmilic]

No

[@indietonne]

We have to not support those manufacturers. I never had this feeling at my tesla.

[@Chris-f7s2y]

They are simple, until they go wrong of course. This is another reason why EVs in their present form are unsustainable. Add this to the list of other reasons.

[@garycevrepairs]

Modern petrol and diesel cars are also immensely complicated.

[@thebrowns5337]

Couple of thoughts... ICE are no longer simple to fix either and their complicated designs forces viable repairs to be huge strip down and replace jobs. Take a look at the VW T6 forum regarding the DPF/EGR saga - vand just a few years old now having new engines fitted starting at £14k upward just for parts. Secondly it's training and lack of understanding. Not many mechanics were trained on EV repair as they are relatively new.

[@garycevrepairs]

Interesting, thanks!

[@Gripper-ie2qg]

EVs do share a great deal with a standard ICE, but, EVs require different skills because of high voltage and the number of components that are driven by motors and electronics rather than gears or drive belts, EV manufacturers are not quickly coming forward to supply spare parts and aftermarket suppliers are still rather short. There are millions of ICE and some garages cant be arsed to switch over to doing EVs and having to employ skilled electricians to safely work on them. Not enough EVs are sufficiently failing to warrant employing or indeed even training staff to work on EVs. It doesn't help with all the misinformation out there that indicates the battery will fail in 5 years, range is poor, your going nowhere in winter and the battery will self ignite, so residuals are poor, people are afraid to keep an EV beyond its warranty. but as you say - this will slowly change.

[@bernardcharlesworth9860]

I think there will be businesses in a few years selling rebuilt motors and pce's.but needing to coding it to the vehicle vin is not really ethical in my opinion.

[@user-bz9cb8bp2y]

To think my £100 1.6 diesel car lasted 232 thousand miles (body rotted away 😢) and gave me free motoring for 8 yrs, 6 months..... My new diesel might last longer 👍♥️🇬🇧

[@alanbenson9626]

No modern car, ICE or EV is easy to repair. Believe it or not the technology is well proven, but the implementation from design through to support leaves a lot to be desired. Unfortunately for some manufacturers they may not be around much longer if they don't up their game.

[@thomascatford2627]

Diesel rules and always will

[@kellyeye7224]

Will business invest in the education and expense of EV engineers when they can't be sure that EVs will remain mainstream in the future? Seems to me that if we go full EV then we'll end up with a 'disposable' car industry that forces replacement rather than repair. The manufacturers would love that!

[@garycevrepairs]

The training to work on high voltage components applies to hybrid and electric vehicles. More repair options and trained technicians are needed but EVs are very repairable. I just completed the repair of an 8 year old 116k EV. Cheers

[@Hydrogenblonde]

I hope you have securely blocked the ports on that a/c compressor otherwise it will be corroded inside by the time you put it back into service.

[@garycevrepairs]

It has ac oil sitting in it and it’s aluminium, the ports are covered to prevent moisture and the whole system is vacuumed before refilling. Cheers.

[@Hydrogenblonde]

@garycevrepairs when you say the ports are covered, with what? A rag? Some plastic? That won't be good enough you need fittings able to withstand pressure, refrigeration fittings. Being aluminium won't matter if there is any trace of refrigerant left in the compressor or the oil. The refrigerant absorbs moisture from the air, that moisture then reacts with the refrigerant to produce hydrochloric acid and or hydroflouric acid. That will turn your compressor to scrap in no time. Used compressors taken out of service, even for a short time, need to be hermetically sealed. The acids will get you.

[@garycevrepairs]

The refrigerant has been vacuumed out, it’s a gas at room temperature so can’t remain in the system, the ports are covered and there is no pressure… I’ve done this 10 times at least and it’s never harmed the compressor. Cheers

[@TABRO284]

I would not get in an electric car never mind buy one or take one to a mechanic.

[@MrAvant123]

EV's may be green but how is it green to have to throw a car away after 6 or 7 years when an ice vehicle can last 15+ years if reasonably well cared for !!!!!!!

[@garycevrepairs]

You may want to watch my video repairing an 8 year 116k mile EV! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eobXl2SKr7ytsMk

[@mike-s8n8y]

The net zero crap will come crashing down , its real people with small finances that keep the country going ,

[@Lucasimo]

It won't. Thats the way things are going and it's not crap. It makes good economic and financial sense. If we do nothing about climate change now the cost of adapting in 10 or 15 years from now is exponentially more expensive even after allowing for inflation.

[@mike-s8n8y]

@@Lucasimo It is crap mate , they have dragged their feet knowing about climate change for decades and decades , it is money driven dont believe the hype ,

[@kradius2169]

The Nut Zeroes will prevail. SDG7 doesn't rhyme with WTC7 for no reason.

[@quademasters249]

@@Lucasimo The problem is all of transport only represents maybe 25% of carbon emissions. Cars are something like 15-20%. So even if you have a 100% conversion to EV's it's still a relatively small reduction in CO2. Farming and construction contribute far more. They want to fix climate change off the backs of the poor while not inconveniencing the rich.

[@mondotv4216]

It still shocks me that you have to take the whole front end off the Zoe just to get the motor out. Why can't you lift it out with a hoist?

[@garycevrepairs]

Unfortunately that’s how they designed this variant. Some people take it out from underneath but that’s not the official method and requires the car to be really high and securing various other parts - by the time I’ve done all that I can have it out the front. Cheers

[@quademasters249]

Many cars and trucks are like this. When they were built the motor was inserted from the bottom when they were built. Toyota is replacing all the engines in Toyota Tundras with the turbo V6 for the first 2-3 years of manufacture. The whole cab has to come off to replace the engine.

[@lesklower7281]

EVs there big selling point was they are simple which means they should be reliable obviously there are not reliable all l can say l own a 27 year old Toyota Hilux which has done 439000 kilometres and it is reliable because of the Toyota 22R engine they will atleast do 800000 kilometres because it's over engineered just look on you tube the most reliable engines and nearly every video mentions the Toyota 22R engine and mine has a carburator which is probably the original carburator and another thing it probably has its original head gasket but because it's a Toyota made in Japan it is reliable and my Hilux will not need a replacement any time soon and it doesn't burn oil and in the 5 years l have owned the Hilux it has appreciated many thousands of Australian dollars and there are many reasons why that happens in Australia because older Toyotas appreciate many thousands of dollars and its not the fact they are rare it is because they sell and have sold a lot of Toyota's in Australia much more than any other vehicle brands available in Australia and also many JDM Toyota's they are also everywhere because they are Toyota's and why Toyota's it is because of there rock solid reputation for reliability and in the outback you have to 100% depend on your vehicle not breaking down and Toyota's absolutely rule in the outback because they are dependable an an EV wouldn't cut it

[@jayartz8562]

Ha ha, in my 20 years as a mechanic (a while ago now) the only motor that I had to fix with a rod through the block was a 22r in a Celica

[@izzzzzz6]

There will never be a second hand market for people on a budget. By the time the car is affordable like in the £1500 bracket then the battery will be rubbish. Put a used or new battery in and your £1500 car suddenly costs you £6k+ Sorry. I'm out!

[@turboslag]

The concept may be simple but the execution is complex and expensive. It will be rare to repair an EV at the roadside, so it will always be a recovery to a garage. All the parts are expensive, it's all crammed in so labour cost will always be high, used parts are a mystery until installed, so if found to be faulty it's another expensive strip down. And this is without mentioning residual values and insurance. Basically they are a major sh1t show and I'll never own one!!! And of course, it's a poor answer to a problem that doesn't exist!!!!

[@garycevrepairs]

I suspect modern petrol and diesel cars are repaired at the roadside far less often than older ones.

[@turboslag]

@garycevrepairs Well yes, not by the owner typically, but I meant by breakdown services.

[@jonathancolling2284]

I think that the fact that recoding of parts has to be done and indeed cannot be done with used parts will mean that there will be more risk for garages and less likelihood of them actually wanting to take a risk on a repair because they could do all the spade work and the car is still a paper weight and its all on them to fix the issue ! The garage in this situation will only get stung once and won't do it a second time - especially if the customer agrees on a £1500 repair which becomes £4200 because a new part has to be fitted. Then there is the down time if the part is on back order ! Mechanical engines and regular electrical parts are just a guaranteed fix. Buy the 1996 Honda Civic AC compressor. Fit it. Gas the system. DONE ! Happy customer, working car, money in the bank ! Modern tech on ICE cars needs coding too - especially German cars. While this can be a pain, at least you can get many cheaper aftermarket parts that save the older car from being scrapped. EV's are like laptops.... Great until they age. Then all of a sudden there is no point anymore. The public charge connectors no longer fit, the battery range is poor and they will all tend to fail at the weakest link... This will make that "weak link" part a high demand item and probably scarce once they have moved from Gen 3.1 onto Gen 6.1. I have a few older cars and I love to maintain them and improve them. I won't ever put any money into an EV because to me its like buying an iPhone 7 - why would you ?

[@iaing9028]

I bought an iPhone 7 brand new & do still use it as a Sat Nav!

[@jonathancolling2284]

@iaing9028 Apple stopped providing security updates for the iPhone 7 in July 2024. Which was my point really. 1999 Honda has no software or hardware to become obsolete, so it can be kept and used as long as there is fuel available.

[@keithsnowdon8672]

I have no sympathy with EV drivers. I will keep my old 64 mpg diesel.

[@xxxxghostxxxx2052]

I rather buy Chinese EV than any European EV.

[@bigdougscommentary5719]

Because Einstein, they have more collapsible room to protect occupants in a crash. Guess we know WHY you are a body repair guy.