Even More Recent Tournament Cheating + How to Solve it Permanently

[@thegothking894]

A machine that'll shuffle your deck for you? Considering the cost of GPs it's the least they can do.

[@Helios1702]

The problem with these machines is, that they are really rough on your gards and some of them just shuffle deterministicly, which ruins the whole purpose.

[@Zwork101]

A machine isn't cutting the deck, each player will be using MTGO or some other software on a tablet or desktop. That would allow pure randomness and shutdown cheating, and stop the swishing with the hands, I guess.

[@thegothking894]

Why would you drive miles and pay money to do something you could just do at home? Why even need a pro-tour if you can just organize them online? Then what's the point of buying physical cards if you can't play with them?

[@commandercorner5575]

The Goth King Shuffle cheats are just the tip of the iceberg.

[@TuneReaper]

The swishing isnt always a result of drugs or "wanting to be pro", a lot of times it becomes a habit, like restless leg which you mentioned, or is a nervous tick. Im sure some people do it as wannabes or as a result of drugs, but certainly not everyone, I wouldnt even say most people.

[@charlesvitanza8867]

absolutely great idea des. the digital tournament would cut down on cheating by at least 70%

[@gahbunk]

They should hire current or ex card magicians to watch people, see if that weeds out a few more card manipulators.

[@gahbunk]

lmao. Pen just calling bullshit all over the place haha. So much yes

[@mentalbreakproductions6993]

I want a machine to shuffle for me because, despite practicing, I'm still not great at it. Oh, and DEATH TO SWOOSHING YOUR HAND!

[@boroskiwi7038]

I fully agree digital would be great to stop cheating. If they want to make it an E sport it would help a lot as well, animations ect would make it more enjoyable to watch and its easier to follow.

[@Axofpik]

if MTGO was actraully fixed and actually free, then it would be viable.

[@DavBotsArcade]

YES DES! Standard GP finals, and pro tours digital only. Watching arena on stream is more visually engaging than analogue.

[@amacuro]

I think the reason desolator is sick all the time is because his passion (Magic, duh) is owned by the very thing he despises. I'd be sick as well if Magic was owned and ran by the Tea party lol

[@VioletTheGeek]

I think the digitization of Magic tournaments is a great idea, but perhaps with a twist. Let people use their paper cards, but track the game states with cameras and image recognition software. Now, I don't know how feasible this would be, but computer image recognition is getting pretty good these days. I saw a KZbin video once (can't remember what channel) where they were opening packs and placing the cards on the table under a camera, which would recognize the card and display a larger image of the card overlaid on the video in real time. It doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to hook that into a digital version of the game - hopefully one a little more reliable than MTGO - and track the board state and number of cards in each player's hand at the very least. Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of shuffling, but it's something to think about. Though, it does have the added bonus of being able to record each match for review by a judge as needed. And paper cards get to still be a thing.

[@Lightman0359]

Digital tournaments could even [for the feature matches anyway] use a custom client output that displayed hand and other secret info on a tablet with the battlefield and other open zones on a touch display table [like those $5g+ D&D tables]. it could use a LAN only client of Arena or MTGO to reduce/eliminate network lag and outside communication [giving zero chance of guest watchers that are not judges or commentators and reduce intel leaks to those said observers [since no external chat/DM connection]. The computers being WOTC/promoter owned and requiring all players to log in both Arena and MTGO accounts [since WOTC has direct control of those] at registration reduces chances of using those media for external communication or hacking. The players' registered deck and sideboard [and no other cards from their collections] would be loaded onto the client [or digital versions if they bring the deck in paper, with tournament points being spendable to add the cards to your digital collection, in the versions you have in print, possible] The reverse of the digital card addition could also happen with the top 10% or so receiving [in the mail] a special printing of their deck, with most recent art, special foil treatment and the Tourney name/Date as the expansion symbol [like a mix of judge foils and the old prerelease cards with the gold stamp], maybe at a cost of the cards being deleted from their account. They could even do a "Tourney Masters" digital set to draft the decks that got printed when enough cards are gathered to make a set. The tourney masters set could even be the draft format for qualifier tourneys, giving the hopeful tourney grinders a chance to get the highly sought after degenerate gatekeeper cards like Jaces, Dual Lands [shock, fetch or OG] the cheaty Merfolk like "screw that guy" Truename Tableflip or Painter's hack, elemental blasts, maybe even Power 9 for the Legacy portion. Imagine watching pros and wannabesdrafting a set with legacy dredge, enchantress, Affinity, [insert broken pairing here]-Tron, Busted Jund, Storm, Boggles and Infect! Hell to play, hilarious to watch! And like some other MTGO sets, collect them all and at the next tourney you top 10% at, you can cash them in for paper, adding a couple more copies to the IRL card pool, probably not enough to affect prices of reserve list cards [fuck that tequila decision from last century, more cards are on the collective banned lists than are on the reserve list, time to abolish it in limited form] but enough to let more players tourney grind. Even if the digital thing doesn't happen, the "reserve list masters" set I mentioned, only printed to draft at qualifier and above tourneys, should be done, the most played deck in each format, then the most played cards of other colors and rarities needed to balance/equalize the colors, with cards' popularity divided by the number of times it has been in a masters set[or just this tourney draft set].

[@jeanmarais337]

To be honest, it'll end up like that EVENTUALLY anyway if Magic lives that long. If human kind lives that long. We'll have to wait and see who dies first.

[@the_average_canadian]

Hey a video for my birthday! Thanks dude! XD Water of the Coast. I am against digital magic, and in fact any digital board/card game, just because I think a large part of the fun of playing magic is physically manipulating the cards (Not the cheater kind of manipulating) and being in-person with the opponent/your friends. If they did digital MTG ONLY at VERY TOP level tournaments, I'd be OK with that, because I wouldn't play digital magic, and I don't unless I'm decktesting. I think this is a good idea, it WOULD solve all the cheating issues. I don't know if I would watch digital magic, though. Who knows, we'll see how it turns out. At the end of the day, it WILL happen eventually. Anyways, how about you release that next video that you already recorded? It IS my birthday, after all. Hahahaha have a great day dude.

[@Shadowfoxx2424]

first of all, I'm with you Des, how the hell is magic an E-sport? second, no one will take professional magic seriously if they keep letting cheaters play, how can they not get that through their thick fucking skulls, this is why I don't give a shit about pro magic, it's not worth watching with all this bullshit

[@theredsorcerer7764]

Hey Desolator just out of curiosity who do you play in commander or if you have multiple who's your favorite because I'm looking for a new commander.

[@faseel4392]

It's actually not too hard to determine if a player has more cards than they should, I've seen judges count all the cards in play, in hand, and in the graveyard/exile for each player, taking into account draw spells and who went first and such to find out if one player has seen more cards than the other than they should.

[@MobiusCoin]

I usually swish after a draw and swish after some kind of hand disruption. But other than that, I don't move the cards around.

[@blazenjestergames4025]

Not trying to be an ass has anyone ever asked you not to cause, last year when I was in Pitts someone actually told the person across from them to knock it off LOL

[@MobiusCoin]

No because I don't do it while I think. If someone asked me to not do that right after a Thoughtseize I'm gonna be hella suspicious.

[@joshhoward1898]

How about the judge had them there draws during major rounds, and have the person next to you shuffle your cards for you in the early rounds.

[@darkshadow01052]

I have no desire to go to a GP. Why would I want to play with a group of people who will do at nothing to win than a group of friends and having a great time.

[@Chasen32]

Honestly I don't do the swish thing with my hand, if I want to shuffle mu hand I take half in one hand and half in the other thread them together, it does allot better job than the swish thing and is quieter. I heard the swish thing is to shake up your hand, but honestly just take half and half and put them together, does a potentially better job and makes less noise.

[@Scott-zo9mt]

JUST DO IT! Go to a GP and call out everyone, it would be the best.

[@Chasen32]

Make a video and cut to every time he calls someone out and they get removed XD

[@animechuck4219]

It'd be like an episode of COPS. Except with magic cards.

[@Snowjiggles]

My only personal issue with the electronic tournaments would be that paper cards wouldn't be as worth getting.

[@pantalones207]

Digital seems like a good idea but I'm not sure about one thing. If it's a modern or standard event, for example, then would players register the decklist and be given a digital copy for the event or would everything have to be through mtgo? I've never even considered a pro event so maybe I'm in the minority here but I would rather burn my collection than play mtgo and don't want to buy the pieces to my deck twice just to play in a tournament.

[@spookyspooky132]

actually shuffling cards can be useful to not allow the opponent where yoru cards are. newly drawn cards on the right etc, you could pay attention to their eyes to see what cards he looks at most or something like that. i do agree magic online would fix it all, but that argument is sort of invalid c:

[@0D3K0]

would you have to register physical cards you have or make everything digital/rebuy all you already have physical?

[@michaeldegrave5905]

Playing an all digital Pro Tour would be great for the integrity of the tournament. It probably wouldn't be great for Wizards' promotion of their top product, which is paper cards.

[@steventinker3958]

I'll bring a storm counter to every magic match, and tick it up every time I cast a spell on a turn, even though I have no storm cards at all in the deck.

[@ryclotfelter7060]

I play legacy. There, I said it. I know that people don't like the format, but personally I think that it is by far the most enjoyable format there is. The fact that you say it is just a coin flip and thats it really shows that you have never played the format before. Just look at people like Rich Shay, Chris Pikula or LSV playing Legacy or Vintage. The games don't last a few minutes, they are incredibly nuanced and have so many minute choices to make. Don't hate on something you haven't tried. If you don't like it, fucking deal with it. There are other people who have opinions and who love the things you hate.

[@FatMan2539]

I do that "hand shuffling" thing but probably about 50% slower than the "pros" and the wannabes (and have been ever since I played Yu-Gi-Oh (which I stopped because the game was moving too fast (new sets every moth or so? come on...))) but only as something to do while I _100%_ have NOTHING that will interact with my opponent during their turn. I'm well aware that it's a tell but as a super casual player I don't really care.

[@theshiningwaffle6936]

Someone sponsor him to go to a gp so we can get more cheater videos

[@rhino7915]

Des would you burn that pile of cards if they were all aphla graded 10 black lotus's?

[@54m0h7]

I hate cheaters. Last draft I mulligans to 6 and kinda gapped out and drew 7 cards. I let my opponent pick one at random and I put it on the bottom of my library. It was one of the two lands so I mulliganed to 5, but it's the point of it. The game is meant to be fun. If you can't win legit, what's the point?

[@4ll3sb4n4n3]

Go digital! You come with your real deck to the table, it gets digitalized: BOOM! There you go.

[@theharrysauce]

Water of the coast haha

[@MunchKING]

If it doesn't keep track of the rules and all the card interactions , then you still have people cheating by lying about what their cards do, and then drawing too many or something else anyway. If it does keep track of everything then you have to get it all programmed every time a new set comes out. And people will be REALLY annoyed if the combo they were using in paper magic wasn't represented in the digital version.

[@VioletTheGeek]

Yeah, and MTGO is *usually* pretty good at getting the card interaction right, despite the apparent lack of concern by the developers to address bugs in a timely manner or create a friendlier, more modern UI. (TBH, it should probably just be rebuilt from the ground up by a more serious, well-staffed team. I can't imagine how messy that code must be by now.)

[@MunchKING]

Matt B. Yes, but having never played it, I didn't know how good it was at getting obscure card interactions down. I know the PlayStation game avoided a lot of the weirder cards for that reason,

[@rodrickplum2989]

The hand shuffling thing actually has a purpose in yahgiho (intentional) you use it to mess with your opponent and basically lie.

[@TheReal_birbwizard]

Timothy Town yeah but not in mtg. in mtg card shuffling your hand is annoying.

[@rodrickplum2989]

Logan Armes I know that. I play like 20 card games I used to run my LGS tournaments. Everything from yugioh to mtg to D&D and even SSB

[@michaellapalme1198]

They shouldn't drug test because it's an amateur competition, not professional. People pay to compete. Winning a monetary prize and actually being paid aren''t the same.

[@VioletTheGeek]

Did you really just compare *cheating at a card game* to *rape*? I mean, I'm on your side and think that cheaters should be banned for life (with perhaps a second chance), but rape is quite a bit more serious of an offense than cheating.

[@morganaholbrow5549]

If you are catch you cheating at a YuGiOh tournament your name and ID gets black listed, you will never play pro again.

[@DesolatorMagic]

So I take it Yugi Moto is on that list lol

[@morganaholbrow5549]

DesolatorMagic Yeah if he shows his spiky hair around a tournament konomi would kick his ass.

[@hunterpurnell1648]

But... Legacy isn't a coin flip...

[@nick1518]

Flash is banned? Glimpse storm doesn't exist? Hedron alignment is unplayable? If you're going to argue legacy is a coin flip, you can at least cite BR reanimator and its ilk as a source.

[@daftquick3509]

i would suggest a 3 strike system 1.1 month 2.2 months 3.3 months after that band for life and use a computer system to make copies of the decks that are being used and force them to use the digital copies of their decks at the higher levels of play of course eg. the pro tour

[@chadsideris1396]

I was thinking the whole first half of this video, why the hell don't they just go digital? Then you said it.

[@GraydenLocke]

I agree. I would come back to playing in tournaments if they digitized it. I quite going to Friday night mtg, prerelease and local tournaments because of the cheating. I did constructed first and found people locally trying to sneak in cards and not shuffle properly never caught someone drawing multiple cards but when prowess was a thing their would be cheaters left and right trying to add too many triggers during damage calculations. I am nowhere near a math wizard but I caught this many times. starting drafting instead found it to be fairer and no chance of encountering net decks but still the same damage miscalculations and many many many people trying to add more mana then they have to cast spells they can't afford and after I would call them out they all new they were cheating and pretty much had no hope of winning. Not the best constructed player but my draft skills are pretty good went to that store after I left my old one and finished 1st twice and 3rd once and quit going because while I can see cheaters much of the time my friend cannot and lost almost every match due to this and I know they had cheated him because when I got up to watch his match I caught an experienced player "a guy who I beat" who told me he was the best player in the store miss on a prowess trigger and sacrificed 2 clue stones with insufficient mana. I was done at this point.

[@mm3andersen1]

I do not enjoy MTGO. I think you would need a proxy for each game that did the shuffling for each player

[@ianclermont]

great idea to prevent cheating. But if they wont go for it, how about plexiglass holders and do like the pro poker player, you are not allowed to have the cards in your hands? You can peek, just not have them in your hands? I think the digital tourney is the way to go. Also, have a dedicated dealer for each match. nah! you're right that would cost to much. For the digital version, how do you play Legacy? You cant scan the cards. I know you dont like legacy but you have to admit some other people do. If WotC goes digital, what happens to all the physical cards values? If you want to keep the cards value i yhink my idea is the best way to go. Have a Yu-Gi-Oh type card holder where you cant cheat. If WotC had copies of the players cards and a shuffling machine that might help. tell me what you think.

[@Reiku78]

Hey Des what game is playing the background?

[@JT-xu1qd]

you could check the description...

[@Reiku78]

on mobile smartass.

[@totallyrandomnosity]

I started playing magic when I was around 8. I started the swish swish thing cause people around me did it and now it's a habit

[@pmattgmon]

This is just me But I do that hand shuffle thing because I legit can fall asleep or lose focus in tournaments so I feel bad because even I hate the noise

[@Helios1702]

Great idea but who will bring the computers/tablets and make sure the contestands don't do something to the program? I mean the human garbage cheating at these events might also try to get information about their enemys hand for example if they have the chance to do so.

[@jonc3519]

It's much hard to "do something to the program" than to cheat the old fashioned way.

[@Helios1702]

I'm 100% with you on that but the new way still throws up some questions.

[@jaxonking]

. . . "oh my gosh i'd actually watch it for 15 minutes if i had nothing better to do" . . .

[@Brandon9oh7]

we are talking about a card game that you can win money playing, the obscure one, that's not an Esport, but wants to be? the one that most of your friends don't want to play with you, because it's super complicated, and you have to do math? you can cheat at that game? as a pro? and win more money? and then you call yourself a pro?

[@tylerdanielewicz4693]

The "purple hair on an sjw" made my day

[@decomposingbrains]

there is a far easier way to do it...no need peopole watching them, get all cards used by pros nfc/rfid tagged, create an area where they need to keep their hand at, no way he can cheat... The digital version has the problem of how broken it is for now

[@stalememesthatarefresh9362]

Ðesolator is toxic

[@kuystalheim5427]

I am a contact juggler and I have a lot of fine motor muscular addiction.

[@jamesmetzger4138]

what is exactly rules lawyering

[@animechuck4219]

If you're going to have magicians and slight of hand guys cheating, then have them cheat ALL OUT. I wanna see someone cough, pat their chest, hock up something, and then pull out their next draw. I want to see someone catch a card on fire, and as they quickly put it out, it's actually Chandra(the GOOD one). IN fact, they BURN the bad chandra card and it becomes the GOOD chandra card. I want to see someone play the game through sheet of glass that's covering the table, and all their cards are UNDER the glass. I want to see someone david blane it, and slit their arm open, and pull out an eldrazi out of the wound.

[@connormraz6628]

mtg online sucks it easier to play with physical cards and it costs money to get your physical collection as online cards, there would have to be some form of free transfer for us to be expected to play online.

[@DavidMitchells]

How is that that you're such an expert on everything you do, and that you've done it all, and you could beat everyone anytime you wanted etc etc. I'm sure you have some experience but you pat your own back so much that I don't know what to believe.

[@juvygotbandx]

This is kinda offense to me. I do cheat in drafts just because my store has people who got too eight from pro tour and people who played since alpha. They have over powered draft decks every time even if they are playing the worst 2 colors. Yes it is wrong but I can't go to fnm anywhere else. The second closest one is an hour away.

[@VeronicaFernandez9109]

Sometimes I really think you don't like MTG at all... I appreciate your perspective and that's why I watch but it really seems as though you've fallen out of love with this game even if WOTC fixed everything you talk about.

[@ts8744]

haha I watch how people play too and when people swish swish I wanna table flip every time... and the way "pros" draw their cards by either bending them up to see the card then down again and then drawing orrr when they draw, swipe on the table, go to hand, swish swish, look at their hand.

[@CTimmerman]

Would be better if you'd shown or at least linked to some evidence of cheating.

[@DesolatorMagic]

It's the last couple videos on my channel, bro.

[@aydensauvageau9393]

I just saw a equal pay for equal work add before a DES video!!!!!! lol

[@DesolatorMagic]

If women want to make the same amount, stop accepting lower pay offers at the job interview.

[@nichoyovanovich]

IRL - the inequality in most white collar (cube farm) workplaces between White-Male and female as well as people of color is the extended work environment that favors WM workers. Promotions, preferential treatments, incentives and racial nepotism is real. I am a SoCal White male, liberal, and open to the realization that I am working here, and a woman or POC is not (in my job). My hope is that as our society evolves, although slowly, it will still move toward progress and equality as long as we don't go full Armageddon and live on the road like Mad Max.

[@XxiOSgamerxX]

I wouldn't play or watch it at all if it were electronic

[@blazenjestergames4025]

It's open season!!

[@blazenjestergames4025]

And btw I could careless if they hand me a cup and say "you know what to do" cause I have jack to hide I get Drug Tested every month except I'm Expected to fail it because I use pain medication and that's how they monitor I'm using it and I have legal prescriptions and I know not everyone uses prescription drugs to alter their mind state to cheat and there are a ton of people that have prescriptions for certain meds and use them as directed I'm fine with that if you can prove you have a prescription then your good too but those who don't and abuse it those are the people who need to be weeded out.

[@blazenjestergames4025]

Haha the legacy motto "shuffle present to opponent and sue the crap out of them.." haha I have certain amounts of capital and I would never spend it in that amount to build a deck I would much rather go find a place to place it where it makes me money and that's what I have done !

[@blazenjestergames4025]

+Matt B. It's called Adderall and it's actually used quite a bit in competitive magic there are many stories about it and if I do recall someone even mentioned during a magic documentary that it's abused though out competitive magic.

[@Ascenrial]

I card flick because I have tourette's syndrome and have picked it up as a tic, due to all the players that do it.

[@captainnoobface1124]

apjantosh legitimate excuse though.

[@MajigJamin]

water of the coast, that's the best!

[@l2ubberl7ucky23]

I swish my cards cause I am nervous :-( Damn social anxiety disorder.

[@kuystalheim5427]

well des electrons everywhere

[@parkerwing6906]

if it was digitl the spectators could get on Thair mtgo they they could mabey take a better look at what's going on. like zoom in and read the cards

[@rtv8066]

drug test magic tournaments... I didn't know roids was a problem.

[@DMCcryptik]

Ryan Vaughn stims are the problem, not steroids.

[@rtv8066]

yeah stim packs have saved my life more than once against a pack of feral ghouls... I can only imagine what it would do for you in a tournament and their so damn expensive who the hell wants to spend a 1000 caps on a pharmacy?

[@DMCcryptik]

Ryan Vaughn I get it that you're trying to be funny with the fallout thing but amphetamine abuse isn't exactly a joke..

[@DavBotsArcade]

SOLUTION! #CHEATYFEST Have a special tournament just for them 😋

[@macrochaos]

DIGITIZE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@theroastedbean9866]

Oes it to annoy his opponent

[@joshuanorris5860]

Lmao what fucking drugs can you abuse to get an advantage playing magic?? Thats funny. If my oponent wanted to be drunk he can fill his boots too lol they could sell beer at magic events haha, missed opportunity. Carefull with ur expensive cards tho lolz

[@spicyboithedisappointment4937]

hey des could you site your souce

[@DesolatorMagic]

Bro, I don't even remember what this video is about lol.

[@theroastedbean9866]

Actually ari lax d

[@thedirtye]

I hate the term esport. I feel like it's just a way to make your average fat kid feel active. I suppose modo makes mtg an esport technically. my issue is where I'm from, sports require physical activity. also, you got purple hair des? you're becoming the mtg equivalent to an sjw, and we all know how that tickles your fefes

[@purplesnowshark6544]

2nd muahaha