EVERY 40k FACTION IS BAD and HERE'S WHY! Warhammer 40,000 Lore

[@zenosAnalytic]

Another thing about the Drukhari: Commoragh and its society predate the fall. Given that the Exodites and Craftworlders are, essentially, Aeldari Puritan separatists, The Drukhari are probably the closest thing to pre-slaanesh Aeldari culture left. So: they're preserving(and intensifying) the very traditions which led to their species near-extinction in the first place.

[@ИванЕвдокимов-в4м]

Yeah, pre-Vect takeover rulers of Kommoragh were politicians and nobles of the old Aeldari empire, who happened to be in the webway during birth of Slaanesh (and, considering status of Kommoragh at the time, they had been there for all the wrong reasons).

[@ludovicusbathory1715]

@@ИванЕвдокимов-в4м most likely having a murder orgy when the fall happened didnt know for awhile until some went out to get more captives only to see the empire in ruins. Chances are they were confused for a minute shrugged grabbed some captives and went back home. Most likely centuries passed before the news spread that the empire was gone all just shrugged and went back to murder partying.

[@MiniPaintAdventurer]

Drukhari and the Dark Elves in WHF are supposed to be a satire of American Chattel slavery.

[@engine4403]

This wasn't any slow thing either, it seems Eldar had the upper edge after the war in heaven pretty much until their fall. That is some 65 million years of gradual grape and pillage

[@Bluecho4]

Moreover, their system of syndicalist power mongering means many of the people within their society likely lack the mobility to leave their situation. A raider in a Kabal might be able to jump ship when on a raid and try to convince a Craftworld or Exodite tribe to let them in. But the random Drukhari person doing paperwork back at Commoragh - basically, any member of their society who isn't a captured non-Eldar slave - may not have the opportunity or wealth needed to exit the webway. (Because you better believe the Drukhari control who gets to go in or out). They _literally_ can't afford to leave. Much like impoverished communities relegated to slums in our world: they have to stay and maybe join a local gang to survive, because they can't afford to move. Nor is a random Drukhari citizen - born in a tube and indoctrinated into a life of back-stabbing and torture - mentally equipped to even consider leaving. If they even know that other Eldar societies exist, they've likely been told they're weak or foolish or vulnerable to death. That the Drukhari are strong, in a Darwinian "you survived because you're fitter than all your kin who died" kind of way. It's to the benefit of Commoragh's elites to keep all their underlings thinking this is the best life they'll ever have. To the point those underlings never think to leave. At worst, they'll try to "better their situation" by playing into Commoragh's duplicitous politics. "If the boss dies, we all go up in rank". It's the worst elements of Conservatism, Capitalism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism mashed up in a blender. Where everyone is locked in an unjust hierarchy by ignorance of, or contempt for, alternatives. Where you measure your worth and survival by how many people (of your in-group or otherwise) sit below you. And the only way to get a better deal is to tear down your superiors and betray your peers.

[@EricsHobbyWorkshop]

I did a shot of water every time you said "BAD" and my headache went away. Thanks bro 😎. Great video with a good succinct illustration of why everyone is so bad

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Basically this is a simplified version of the Badness of each faction The Imperium of Man= Old School Totalitarianism of Almost Every Extremist Society, its Current form is Currently A Theocratic, Totalitatian, Feudalistic, Federative and Autocratic Empire but historically the Imperium under the Emperor is a Far Left Version of Totalitarianism, Progress at the Expense of Human Rights vs Ultra-Arch Conservitism of the Current Imperium also at the expense of Human Rights. Craftworld Eldar: Far Right Autocratic Caste Society, it Treats its Members as More Worthy of Rights than Anyone who isn't Eldar and like the Imperium doesn't tolerate Foreign People. Dark Eldar: Autocratic, Feudal, Slave based State Relliant on Sadism to remain Stable and Raid Innocents to Fuel their Pecculiar Institution. Tau: in Contrast to the Imperium and Eldar is a More Modern Form of Totalitatianism and Autocracy, Having Subjected its People to a Caste system why also Dismantelling the Freedoms.of their Supposed Allies. Leauges of Voutann: Exploitative Mercantilistic Miners, that Exploit People for Resource extraction Orks: Violent Fungal Bioweapons that Kill Individuals and People for Fun Tyranids: a Gigantic Swarm of Hyperintelligent Aliens hell bent on Stripping the Galaxy Dry Necrons: an Ancient Feudalistic Dynastic Line of Robots that Stripped their Humanity. And finally Chaos: Mass Murdering, Exploitative and Angry Psychopaths who worship Literal Demons and 4 Demonic Gods.

[@BW-CZ]

Tyranid fan here! The Hive Mind is most definitely intelligent enough to understand concepts of fear at least, as terror tactics are regularly used, and not just simple animal intimidation but deliberate psychological torture and terror based operation. Like with Deathleaper!

[@ArbitorIan]

Well you know what that means.....

[@Stilloadingjake]

They're bad??

[@BrandonL337]

I believe there are quotes about nids being sadistic in how they kill, you don't need gouts of acid filled with flesh eating bugs to kill a guy when a spike through the brain will do the job.

[@Bluecho4]

Not to mention intelligent enough to use subterfuge. Using the Genestealers to create cults that undermine their planets, so as to weaken them for eventual conquest, would make any CIA guy trying to instigate regime change here in the Real World blush.

[@avinashtyagi2]

Are you guys vegan? If not, that makes you evil by your logic, Since you gladly slaughter boatloads of animals each year, knowing as well that you're destroying forests, and habitats, and feeding climate change which kills animals and humans as well. So by that logic, you are all evil.

[@MannnisEi]

I like the part in False Gods when the other lodge members try to convince Torgaddon that Loken and the remembrancers need to be killed, Torgaddon says something along the lines of "If the legion needs murder and betrayal in order to be saved, then maybe it doesn't deserve to be saved"

[@studentjohn]

For me that was kind-of set up by Abaddon's fury, in Horus rising, at the idea of the Luna Wolves trying to negotiate a peaceful integration with the Interrex - who had made Xenos a part of their society. Petronella Vivar is right: The 63rd expedition is harbouring splits and discontent based on differing attitudes, beliefs, and interpretations of the mission, long before Horus went to Davin.

[@mike_y_666]

Yeah, and then he got his ass kicked in the next book, what an irony)

[@ksh2596]

Torgaddon really was a bro

[@marvinvieth7853]

I think its also important to stress that the great crusade era wasnt some sort of "good old times" scenario. Even with a fully conscious emperor, the modus operandi has always been to conquer by force. Countless war crimes were commited under the primarchs on the regular

[@DeliriumTrigger2]

based, sounds like a good old time

[@Bluecho4]

Yep. Current Imperium is maximally Fascist, but the Emperor's Imperium wasn't un-Fascist either. He was a man who claimed to speak for the will of the people, who fostered a culture of heroism and violence, lead a genocidal/xenocidal war of endless expansion, held contempt for what he considered "degeneracy" (mutation, having religion, making friends with aliens), and was obsessed with plots by the Other that were framed as simultaneously too strong and too weak. All while freely making coalitions with groups (like the Mechanicum) that directly contradicted his own policies, solely for convenience. Big-E hit many of the hallmarks of Real Life Fascist movements and regimes. His Imperium turning into what it did wasn't a complete aberration, but the logical conclusion of the foundation he established.

[@mikaelantonkurki]

@@Bluecho4 I disagree that it was the logical conclusion: 1) Every nation has somekind of heroism and violence in their culture. 2) I would say that the great crusade was a pretty realistic project considering the horrible shit that's in the setting. 3) When different human mutant strains start fighting amongst each other over which of them is the true and superior evolutionary path, something has gone wrong and while destroying religions is not a good i personaly consider religion to be a in general 'crap'. 4) It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. 5) Compromises like those with the mechanicus are the most sensible acts any human in the field of politics and diplomacy can make.

[@mind_onion]

There was definitely a point before the Heresy where things were winding down and potentially going in a more positive direction. (spoilers) In the HH novels a lot of Space Marines are concerned because it seems like war would come to an end, and they don't see a place for themselves in a peaceful universe. That's one of the driving forces behind the Heresy. Then a more secular non-religious faction in the Mechanicum is on the verge of creating a device (the Akashic Reader) that will grant the user all knowledge, effective omniscience. The Emperor also was presented as a skilled diplomat, who would often conquer by peaceful means, for instance the Dark Angels home world joins the Imperium willingly. The Emperor definitely is going about things the wrong way, the rampant xenophobia being one of the biggest issues, but the secular imperium was definitely better than the 40K imperium. Of course one leads to the other so...

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

There are no war crimes. The conquest occurred to planets on an as needed basis.

[@1000Tomatoes]

It's always interesting to hear about how the origin as a war game influences the setting. It's like when I realized that the reason why 40k is set long after humanity has spread throughout the galaxy is because letting the planets develop their own unique societies gives more justification for aesthetically different types of battlefields to fight on.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

A lot of people didn't want to do war gaming with the SS or the NKVD

[@Sara3346]

​@@Qwerty-jy9mjWell even for those people they'd be hard pressed to explain why the soviets would have super wizards while still being set on earth.

[@PenneyBack]

I'm glad that, by omission, Ian is wholeheartedly endorsing the only true heroes of 40K: The Dark Mechanicum

[@Del_S]

That or they're too bad to talk about.

[@Empiriarch1945]

I know its a joke, but Ian probably included the Dark Mechanicum in the chaso faction xD

[@cyrusmann5443]

​@ThaUltimateHunter bro it's very clearly a joke.

[@breakdown3317]

All hail the true worshippers of the ommnisiah!!!1!1

[@PrincessKushana]

They are the true heroes of the setting. Brave enough to ask the hard questions like : What would happen if I put a daemon in this machine gun and welded it to a sad orphan?

[@morganahart2575]

I feel like not enough people remember that literally every faction is their own flavor of evil, even their favorite

[@gfanikf]

I still disagree that in the context of the 40K universe some are less worse then the others. However, the tragedy of 40K is if there was cross species acceptance and working together the setting would not be like it is. The actions can be justified, but if they just worked together even only with some reasons, these decisions wouldn’t need to be made or be justifiable, based on the universe. The grim dark is of their own creation.

[@gymcelsocialism]

I think a strong argument could be made that the Tau are, by design, not bad. However, they play the role of the narrative foil, pride cometh before the fall and all that. They do the right thing the right way, and they are constantly almost annihilated by the rest of the galaxy in the smallest skirmishes. I've seen it said that the Tau represent pre-DAoT humanity.

[@gfanikf]

@@gymcelsocialism You can probably argue for Farsight. Granted are you applying standards of today or 40K, cause by anything today, even they are probably hard core war criminals.

[@gman7497]

No one wants to be a bad guy, not really.. there's always an urge to justify your factions behavior no matter how cruel it is.. I guess that's why 40k is so interesting, it forces you to confront that this is a horrible setting full of hate and violence and every being has played a role in getting it here.

[@KhorgosKhul]

😡KHORNE😡 is good.........

[@Siriathion]

The best quote about the Imperium I remember is: "Imagine siding with the Nazis, because they are fighting Cthulu."

[@frankficcle7081]

Reminds me of JoJo part two, where the Nazi's are trying to stop Dracula from getting ultimate power.

[@stormbringer2840]

well , yeah logically you sides with the nazies ...because there is simply no other choices . Basically being born in Warhammer is the worst punishment imaginable , you can't even escape in death because there are 4 gigantic assholes waiting in queue to make your soul a fleshlight or their snack ...or both not necessarily in that order .

[@EwokJerky]

how tf did you still miss the point of this video ong

[@warheadjcj7331]

well put

[@frankficcle7081]

@@EwokJerky What are you talking about, we are just talking about the lesser of two evils. If you had to choose between an oppressive dictatorship and a demon who wants to sodamize your soul, I think the answer is obvious. Both are bad but one is clearly worse than the other.

[@turnipslop3822]

My biggest fear if they make a 40k movie or show that gets popular, is that somehow this point wouldn't be conveyed and that the imperium would actually look like the "good guys". I really hope they make a great 40k movie or series one day, but it absolutely needs to capture this.

[@timothyharnedy4495]

I would really hope that they make a story in which the good guys lose, and are crushed by the evil might of the Imperium. You have some rebellion that starts off a bit like the rebellion in The Hunger Games, is mercilessly crushed, some of the survivors turn to Chaos, and are variously crushed again, or evidently have had to sell their souls for survival and inflict cruelty in turn on their erstwhile oppressors. Possibly this is way too dark and pessimistic for Hollywood, but I think it's necessary to get away from the space marines are brave heroes trap that is otherwise waiting for the careless.

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

The problem with 40k stories is that the emotional range a writer has to work with is absolutely pitiful. You're mostly limited to the anger/sorrow spectrum; there's not really anything to fight FOR, only things to fight AGAINST. It puts a pretty big creative spanner in the works to lose tried and true tropes like love triangles and get nothing in return but cool looking guns.

[@jacobevans4908]

It’s already a struggle for the black library.

[@goawayihavecommentstomake1488]

The Imperium ARE the good guys. A) Manifest destiny is legitimate. B) Pro human is NORMAL C) All aliens ARE a threat. Even in a galaxy, resources and space is not unlimited. D) Chaos is actually real in 40K, and thus evil very much is too E) When the stakes are this high, there is no space for shades of grey: only black and white.

[@Breakingfasst88]

It’s already a problem with some of the fanbase.

[@Tsotha]

I remember around 3rd edition WH40K most fans viewed the Craftworld Eldar as the closest thing the setting had to "good guys" and GW's writers deciding to play up the Craftworld Eldar's less admirable traits to correct that, as well as the introduction of the Tau being so controversial precisely because they seemed like a much less dystopian faction than everyone else

[@nullakjg767]

Thats just because too many 40k fans are straight illiterate. Try actually reading a tau book. Fire caste, the damocles crusade books, etc. People just watch TTS and then go "GW needs to stop portraying the imperium as redeemable!" like thats not whats actually happening in the lore at all. its so embarassing to see people say THE 10TH EDITION TRAILER WAS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, like nah, thats how its been.

[@Tsotha]

@@nullakjg767 yeah even then it was clear to me that the Tau were based on 19th century style "benevolent imperialism" a la Victorian Britain

[@nullakjg767]

@@Tsotha i mean with their strict caste system it makes them come off more like hindu empires of the past. and how you are shunned/heavily punished for acting outside your caste. Diplomacy is just a cheaper way to conduct war.

[@timothyharnedy4495]

@@Tsotha - I always saw the Tau, and "The Greater Good" as a nod towards the 20th century dystopias that were inspired by Communism. Wasn't it something that JK Rowling used in the Harry Potter books with Grindelwald? I think this has its roots more in the Napoleonic end of the 19th century, than the Victorian - when Utopian radicalism goes bad.

[@lmr6085]

Well, the craftworlds (and even better, the exodites) are probably still closest to "good guys" in the setting. Most of the time their deal is just "leave us alone and we won't bother you". Sometimes they even do nice things for other factions (while fulfilling self interest of course). Plus the eldar all hate Chaos, which is definitely on the evil end of the 40k spectrum.

[@erike5865]

A big part of why Genestealer Cults are my favorite faction is that they use the cruelty of the Imperium against itself. It's one thing to say the imperium is cruel, but in practice that can end up as an footnote in tales of super powered uncorruptible grey knights bravely facing the full force of chaos to protect the work of the glorious emperor. It's another to have the cruelty of the imperium be so vicious yet ineffective as to be an obvious vector of infection for something blind and uncaring as the tyrranids.

[@jaimepujol5507]

The Cults are actually good guys. They are only wrong about what they think they are achieving.

[@GustavSvard]

This is one of the main reasons 40k has lasted so long and has such a successful lore-industrial complex around it.

[@0452514]

Ha. I love your phrase the "Lore-Industrial complex". Well done

[@willdunn8846]

@@0452514The lore must flow.

[@GustavSvard]

@@0452514 1 hour later I realize the phrase I was looking for was "extended universe", but couldn't remember it when I wrote that comment. :D

[@cwolf201]

@@GustavSvard lore industrial complex is a better description lol

[@alastaircollins1145]

@@GustavSvard No, no... this is better. Far more accurate, too.

[@Mr_Waffle.]

I adore the Hammer and Bolter episode “garden of ghosts” because it shows space marines shouting out all their heroic battle cries like in the video games, where they’re the good guys… while slaughtering defenceless Eldar civilians. The absurdity of the contrast is peak 40k. Everyone is bad!

[@CrispyChaos38]

Except those same eldar would do the exact same thing to humans. Plus eldar civilians are all guardians just in that case without weapons or armor.

[@CaptainJoosh]

@theredditexperience1 It should!

[@MortdeathMinis]

fyi no such thing as an eldar civilian they all serve in the military in some form.

[@jl5799]

​@theredditexperience1 it has now, and it was written by ADB

[@TheGallantDrake]

​@crimsongaming2427 "except"? That's not a reason or justification, that's just an excuse. "They would have done it to us" is the cry of the petty warlord throughout time.

[@gustavchambert7072]

There are a few good guys in 40k. But they are just that. Guys. As in, individual people or small (usually miniscule) elements of larger factions. These individuals are in no way representative of their factions as a whole. It's also worth remembering that these good guys are only really "good" in the context of 40k. Meaning that most of the time they aren't so much paragons of actual virtue, so much as they just aren't total psychopaths. Which looks positively angelic in comparison to everyone else in the setting.

[@BigDictator5335]

When the Imperium aren't being a bunch of corpse worshipping fanatics, they're pretty reasonable given how unreasonable their world is.

[@MrNuclearturtle]

Kinda why I love chapters like the Salamanders and Lamenters. The former will fight for the common man in its mission to defend the innocent, yet will act as callously cold when dispatching those who complain about unfair taxation with fucking fire, and still operate by serfdom laws, indenturing civilians to servitude, despite it being the best quality of life for much of the imperium.They also make questionable decisions in the name of defending people, they will defend a small sector to defend civilians, mounting large casualties in that defence, as a pose to wiping out the threat from the centre which will save thousands times more people in the entire region, the whole shopping cart dilemma each time they mount a campaign, their inability to look at a bigger picture ends up causing more deaths in their misguided doctrine is perfect. Terribly, terribly flawed “heroes”. The latter lamentors to me are great, because the meta treatment of them is to literally be a punching bag for the universe for even being naive enough to trust the inner good in people, things in which we hold as moral imperatives, siding in the wrong side of a civil war where they’re betrayed and fucked over and punished for standing for the common man. Hell, they bomb a planet out of mercy because it’s preferable to die to a planet crack, than the cruelty of the orcs, even their mercy and care is bombing billions, despite the purity of their intentions. Through and through, they are what we would call the good guys, but them not abiding to this universes laws, theyre punished with a curse of pure misery as lesson for what happens when you’re genuinely nice, amazing

[@dashiellgillingham4579]

Something my Dad pointed out to me is that WH40K isn't written like stories about evil things happening. It's written like it's unimaginable for any heroic character to possess anything less than maximum evil, while sticking exactly to the tropes and framing systems of heroics and cultural idols. This results in the built-in moral that heroes must be this evil, regardless of any explicit statement that it is not by it's authors.

[@alexloudenslager4224]

Unfortunately, this only works if you have the media-literacy to understand it, which is why the Warhammer community suffers so much with fascist sections of its community.

[@oblivionfan345Tony]

To quote Norm Macdonald; I was looking through the history books and i found something interesting... Seems like the good guys have won every war!

[@serarthurdayne9490]

History is written by the victors, as they say

[@roryscott2941]

"What are the odds?" I love Norm MacDonald

[@limcw6092]

well, historians write the history and most of the time its very poorly done (they tend to be very useful is getting people to hate each other)

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

Being cartoonishly evil is a good way to lose, since nobody wants to help you out.

[@jbark678]

Thanks for making this. Lots of watering down of some factions going around because people can't cope with the cognitive dissonance.

[@mikemaresca4999]

The Grey Knights was my "they're the good guys" faction, back when I was new to the 40K universe... yeah, reading "Emperor's Gift" squared me away.

[@idigamstudios7463]

In fairness to the Exodites, looking at the other factions of the galaxy shot gun to intruders is actually a bit reasonable.

[@CanonessEllinor]

40k factions exist on a scale from “xenophobic and ruthless but still understandable as a society that people could feasibly create” to “comically evil irredeemable murderpsychos.” Arguable, the light end of the spectrum are actually scarier because of how much they resemble real-world evil. Nobody is going to set up Commoragh in real life, but nothing the Craftworld Eldar do or believe would be out of bounds for, say, the British Empire.

[@mind_onion]

Hard disagree. Anyone you think is comically evil irredeemable murderpsychos, you just haven't dug into their lore enough, or have misplaced positive views of one of the other factions (normally the Imperium, Craftworld Eldar, or Tau). Most of the outlandish behavior from Chaos or Dark Eldar is because of weird metaphysics about the nature of reality in 40K, and that is why you see some cultures as less feasible than others, it's how much their society/behavior leans on weird warp shit and other such fictional shenanigans.

[@seekingabsolution1907]

If the british empire's upper class could live like the drukari they would, they transparently believe themselves innately superior to all other people and would love to do all that horrific stuff for fun.

[@seekingabsolution1907]

​@@mind_onion that's literally what they original comment just said.

[@alastaircollins1145]

I have a book about Rome during Caligula's reign that you might find reeeeeeal interesting...

[@mind_onion]

@@seekingabsolution1907 No it says there is a range of moral behavior that makes some factions better. I'm saying thats not the case, if you think it is, you havent read enough of the lore.

[@kirksabio2382]

Remember the time the Mournival used their Father's big bald head as a battering ram that killed like, 30 civilians? Good times. Even at their best, the astartes are bad. Lol

[@Briselance]

That's like comparing Salamanders to Malevolents.

[@Fuerto203]

@@Briselance Just because a chapter is worse, doesn't make the other chapter not also bad. Marines Malevolent are obviously much more evil than the salamanders, but as adressed in this video, that doesn't change the fact that the salamanders are also taking children and mutilating their bodies to turn them into brainwashed super soldiers. That fact remains even when more cartoonishly evil chapters like the malevolents or minotaurs exist

[@Disasterbator]

Is it bad that I laughed at that bit?

[@kirksabio2382]

@@Disasterbator lmao i stole that joke from the lorecrimes people Check em out, theyre mad funny

[@hang_kentang6709]

I also remember them slapping the pipes on the Vengeful Spirit like little children. The astartes are taken as children, and then kept that way. They are what masculinity is in the eyes of children.

[@sphyre1196]

I am not quite sure it was (war) hammered home enough how B A D everything and everyone in 40k is but otherwise this video is pretty good.

[@Hopesfallout]

It's funny how this is controversial. It's literally what put me off Warhammer and 40k as a kid. Reading through White Dwarf mostly for LotR back then, I just couldn't get into the factions because none of them felt very heroic to me, which is simply what I was into at the time: Arthurian legends, LotR, His Dark Materials, Harry Potter. As I grew older, Igained some cultural awareness and humor and, thus, learned to appreciate the satirical, completely over the top madness of the setting. How is it that adults can miss the point of this world by such a massive margin? :D

[@goawayihavecommentstomake1488]

It’s more heroic to take it at face value. The Imperium is doing the best with what it has, under very trying circumstances. They haven’t had any semblance of peace in 15,000 years!

[@Hopesfallout]

@@goawayihavecommentstomake1488 No it doesn't. The Imperium is an exaggeration of everything wrong with human societies. Your argument indicates that societies have to shift away from democracy, freedom and solidarity to overcome massive challenges, which is a deeply flawed assumption, not backed by evidence, neither in the real world nor in 40k.

[@samhunter1205]

​@@goawayihavecommentstomake1488that is mis-reading it badly.in exactly the way the OP was talking about though. The Imperium is NOT doing the 'best it can'. They are gratuitous arseholes a lot of the time, motivated by petty rivalries, xenophobia and zealotry. Even given the dire circumstance they have been in the Imperium could be a much nicer place to live for many of it's citizens. The reactions of the returned Primarchs give a good indication of this, and they are comparing the Imperium now to how it was during the Great Crusade, when it was hardly a paragon of moral virtue either.

[@DisobedientSpaceWhale]

It's what puts me off the setting to this day.

[@Xynth25]

Given that Deathleaper, or the Hive Mind through Deathleaper, was intelligent enough to know how to psychologically break a Cardinal rather than killing him and letting him be a martyr, it's pretty obvious that the Hive Mind understands abstract Cause and Effect. It's smart enough to at least understand morals if presented to it, whether that's a thing that has happened previously notwithstanding.

[@Kaiserboo1871]

Tyranids are weird. I lean towards them knowing the moral philosophies of the species they are fighting against without being able to actually understand and reflect on it. Instead, whatever they learn about xeno (to them) philosophy and thought is only known as far as they can use it to gain victory over them.

[@drinksanddice9528]

Do the Orks realize that other races don't come back as spores? Has that ever come up in the lore? Like, if you were able to explain to one that the things they kill are dead (like Johnny Five and that grasshopper?) what would he think?

[@Henkersman1]

I don't think they know they themself come as spores

[@rubeniscool]

@@Henkersman1 I believe there was written lore that they do.. grots overlook spore "farms" and ensure that newborn orks get their first few meals by directing them towards the squig pens (out of self defense because y'know, grots look tasty), before the orks make their way towards the larger group.

[@pauliusthemad3498]

@@Henkersman1 Ghazgul talked about "coming back for another go" while dying in his novel, so I say they probably are aware of how they come back, and that you can dig up ork yoofs from the ground sometimes.

[@alpharius4434]

I think most of the ork just don't do that much of introspection, and the few that would just wouldn't care.

[@drinksanddice9528]

@@alpharius4434 It'd be pretty funny if they REALLY cared tho. Like one finds out and has a complete existential breakdown. When all of his boyz are screaming WAAAAAGH! hes just standing there silently staring at the ground because he cant get the screams of all of the humies hes slaughtered out of his mind. Dude goes back to his Ork house (or whatever they live in) and tries to kill himself but his gun wont work because he is disillusioned and the wagh requires him to believe his gun works. He finally gets his hands on a humie shoota from the stock pile of loot behind the war-chief's hut (or whatever they live in) and shoots himself but immediately wakes up as a smaller Ork, grows bigger, he can still hear the humie mothers crying over their crushed babies in his dreams, and every time he tries to end it he wakes up again and again forever.

[@Pablito73]

GW could do another reprint run of the Rogue Trader (but broadly available this time) to remind some seasoned players/hobbyists and to show new comers 40K’s roots in social commentary and satire. The modern way to portray the 40K universe mostly from the perspective of the factions themselves is a marketing decision more than anything, but makes the original satirical roots not so clear at first glance to new customers.

[@Fly-the-Light]

It's a weird thing, but the longer things go, the less satirical 40k is becoming

[@CanonessEllinor]

I’d love to own a reprint of the original Rogue Trader book!

[@thenathanimal2909]

​@@Fly-the-Lighthumanity has committed atrocities since before we left the trees. Nothing is new but the speed and magnitude at which we can commit them.

[@MrNuclearturtle]

@@Fly-the-Lightbecause grounding a universe in a gritty vibe tends to hook people in the long run for marketing and internet discussion, generating more revenue in the long run with lore munching fan base. Depending on the generation you ask, Star Wars is either a fun adventure made in the 70s, it’s WWII in space with funny creatures and samurai/knights with laser swords and plot convient space powers that can manipulate the world around….or…..it’s Jin Roh in space with millennia long history, morally grey usage of the force and intergalactic oppression and space racism. Neither are inherently bad, both have their quirks and both have their obvious draws, I loved the Kotor side of SW, that in-depth isolated from the existing universe is so fucking immersive it could be its own thing. Same with warhammer, either is great depending who vibes with it, but this is often an evolution of a long running ip. It’s why I believe GW needs to bring back rogue trader, it can exist as an orbiting genre to the rest of the universe, and can include all the crazy 80s, because it’s no longer confined to that 30 years of lore building.

[@Pablito73]

​​@@CanonessEllinorI have good news for you then! Starting on the 14th of October, GW will start taking pre-orders for the reprint, but only for a limited time, so don't miss out. Cheers!

[@strigoi_guhlqueen8355]

Well I play chaos knights. I mean part of their appeal is being a bunch of crazed, cruel, sadistic and mustache twirling villains.

[@IamZeus1100]

The factions are bad but that doesn’t mean there isn’t good people /xenos amonst them . Oltyx for example is an incredibly endearing character and his big brother (Jasaris?? I think?) was pretty cruel but had quite the turn around by the end of Ruin that I’d say he redeemed himself . It’s weird that the necrons have some of the most human characters But yea overall pretty shit all around for the big picture

[@nullakjg767]

Yeah I mean that guy is british isnt he? He came out of the most damaging monarchy on the planet, still reining as it did when it terrorized the planet. Its like saying he cant ever be considered a good person because the empire that spawned him is CLEARLY evil.

[@mazeltovcocktail2.0]

Oh yeah and I think Ian made that point by saying there's grey to a lot of characters because they're as individuals struggling to do the right thing while being trapped within terrible systems. Like we all are.

[@nicolaslaragarcia3298]

Basically in 40k all factions areabsolute evil, but not all characters are absolute evil. Many are gray and even some doubt their own factions propaganda and ideals because doesn't feel all right

[@javilorenzana]

Mate... Having only watched Major Kill videos, I was starting to legitimately think that most Warhammer fans were just not that bright. Thank you for this.

[@ShadeStormXD]

youre a clown 🤡

[@jasonnewman3355]

I regularly describe the Warhammer setting as having bad guys and worse guys, but not really any 'good' guys. There is the occasional unique individual, but when you're talking broad strokes everyone is terrible.

[@xenoblad]

In the current setting, maybe the Farsight Enclaves, but that is what can be argued as a military Junta with Farsight as a benevolent dictator. Across the entire history, the Interex probably is the closest to being good but the Imperium can’t be having that.

[@obscure-cultist1709]

Yeah, I think the reason the Enclaves come across really well, morally speaking anyway, is only because Farsight himself is babysitting the place with no Ethereals to screw them over

[@felixflitou]

As a Farsight Enclave player, I used it as an excuse to create a much more positive, anti-authoritarian faction to emphasize the horrors of the rest of the universe. The lore gives enough room to adapt, but as Ian said in another video about the alt-right and the imperium, creating actually good guys that rebel against these systems is a good way to keep both grim dark and satire aspects of the universe while having a strong lore for your armies.

[@cyrusmann5443]

The sad thing about them is that they are going against impossible odds, the imperium has a million planets, they have five.

[@linusw2901]

"They're bad, Dave. Who is? Everybody, Dave. What, the Imperium of Man? Everybody's bad, Dave. Tyrannids? They're all bad. Everybody's bad, Dave. Orks aren't, are they? Everybody is bad, Dave. Salamanders? They're bad, Dave, everybody is bad, everybody is bad, Dave. Wait. Are you trying to tell me everybody's bad?"

[@kemarisite]

Thumbs up for the Red Dwarf crossover.

[@nakenmil]

Showing Roboute is interesting, since it seems to me at least, the GW is been pretty hard-selling him as a more noble, positive influence on the Imperium. Still a military dictator, obviously, but it does seem to me that GW does enjoy the impression, however shallow it may be, that he and the new crop of Imperial protagonists are essentially sympathetic people.

[@sweaterketchup2730]

I think characters can be both terrible people as well as sympathetic

[@timbombadil4046]

Noble isn't a terrible approach. The Imperium and Ultramarines especially have a Roman influence, and Rome had dignitas as a concept, but overall was a brutal Imperial regime.

[@Fuerto203]

Every setting needs a protagonist, but a protagonist doesn't need to be good or a hero. Guilliman has many admirable qualities and and has a nobility to him, but like you said, he's still a military dictator. I really enjoyed how in the trailer for the new edition, he actually muses that the idea that the Imperium is bravely fighting back Xenos and reclaiming the galaxy, is in fact a lie.

[@Scriptedviolince]

@@Fuerto203 Don't forget that Guilliman canonically thinks that it would be better if the Imperium was straight up burned to the ground because it's such a cruel and horrible place that letting it collapse would probably improve the situation overall. He's keeping the Imperium together because that's his job, not because he thinks that there are any redeeming qualities to the cause he fights for. The Imperium is evil, unsalvageable, and unfixable but dad says keep it up so that's the way it be.

[@serarthurdayne9490]

Guilliman annihilated the Word Bearer city of Monarcia, which basically set the Heresy in motion. His hands are certainly not clean.

[@Frosty4427]

It's exactly why the setting is so great. Everyone loves villains. Villains are cool, and being one is fun. In 40k, no player misses out, no matter what faction they play.

[@alpharius4434]

You nailed it !

[@Scrombo2]

Well said, my faction of choice is orks, I L O V E my funny little mushrooms but, if ever met a 40k ork, they'd turn my spine inside out

[@mekingtiger9095]

You know, this is the very exact reason I believe a 40k movie adaptation meant to reach "the mainstream" would NEVER work out. Everyone in it, every single faction existent is so irredemably bad with the setting being so dystopian in a totally ridiculous manner it is IMPOSSIBLE to adapt the damn thing in any media that isn't explicitly of tbe comedy genre. But it's also the reason I barely can bring myself to like 40k lore: It is obviously satire, but appears to want to take itself seriously. Like, how??? You can't have your cake and eat it too, bruh.

[@mueezadam8438]

Warhammer is morally grey, you know, that really dark grey your phone screen looks like when it's sunny outside but you forgot to raise the brightness before leaving home.

[@Noorthia]

nothing morally grey about industrial baby furnaces.

[@ShadeStormXD]

​​@@Noorthiayou lack imagination

[@tarazzzs]

I think Exodites are the one with least evil, they just want to live like space Amish, and be left alone. They basically are neets, I agree with them.

[@CocoAsticot]

Was gonna say, based solely on this video, seems the Exodites just want to be left the fuck alone. Not sure what's evil there.

[@justsomeogrewithinternetac1494]

At least in most cases, the vast majority of people I've seen argue that weren't arguing that they weren't bad. They were arguing about how bad they are in comparison to others. Like, i think it's fair to say the Tau are less evil than Dark eldar. By real world standards, every faction is terrible, but not in the same way or to the same degree, because everyone being the same kind or even same level of evil is boring.

[@OldSkullSoldier]

Exactly! I would even say that Tau is closest to being good - they believe that in a very long run conquering a plnaet is a greater good that leaving it alone One could say that they are as bad as EU, which also forces their beliefs on other, believing that these are good. At least probably only Ethereals are hypocrits, not everyone. We could probably go with "light grey" for Tau. And there are Farsight Enclaves, which freed themselves from Ethereals rule and act differently. I don't know much about Exodite Eldar - but killing trespassers isn't necessary bad - for several thousands of years humans were killing or imprisoning tresspasers, and did that for a good reason. But maybe they are doing other bad things? I don't know.

[@brandonlyon730]

@@OldSkullSoldier Ironically even before all the grim dark retcons to them, the Tau are only considered “good guys” in comparison to the other factions. Put the Tau in any other sci-fi setting like Star trek they will be seen as the villainous faction with a manifest destiny attitude.

[@OldSkullSoldier]

@@brandonlyon730 "Good" is always a comparison unless we talk something omnipotent. Same way you could tell that there are no good nations in the real world, at least in top 50 biggest ones. "Good" is always considered "given the circumstances".

[@MrPooleish]

GW seems to have trouble with this message. Every few years they've put out a "Heroes of the Imperium" line, most lore is presented as Pro-Imperium propaganda with few naysayers, and the art always depicts Imperium as heroic if not angelic.

[@nobbymcnobs8721]

to be fair the 10th edition trailer straight up has gulliman say "yeah, everything the imperium has me say is total bullshit we are not in a good place right now"

[@jonathanfavourite]

@@nobbymcnobs8721 That's not what the comment is talking about

[@KhorgosKhul]

To be fair they also had a "Heroes of Nurgle" line too.

[@captainweekend5276]

Yeah Eric's Hobby Workshop had a pretty good response to GW's "the imperium is driven by hate" article, where he shows that GW constantly depict space marines and most of the imperial factions as heroic and fighting against all odds for the good of humanity. It's the big issue with 40k's "satire" nowadays mostly being relegated into the background whilst most elements are depicted earnestly, until it's convenient for them to wheel out against controversies.

[@setiem13]

They are Heroes in the classic Roman sense. No something that a lot of people would know, but doesnt hurt reading a bit about ancient civilizations and their culture erhics. I kinda wish more people did it.

[@rayzerot]

"We don't know how clever the Hivemind actually is. It's ability to adapt makes it seem way more intelligent than just an animal" *casts a side-eye at the upright monkeys called humans*

[@garethjohns8458]

You went over the Tau pretty quickly, and as the Tau are my favourite faction I just wanted to add to it to drive home the point. The Fire Caste. An massive section of their population gets drafted into the military FROM BIRTH. They don't even get the choice of a civilian life, they are indoctrinated and told that their only purpose in life is to learn how to shoot and kill, before eventually dying on a battlefield themselves, all in the name of the Greater Good. When diplomacy "fails" (i.e. a planet doesn't accept unconditional surrender) and the Fire Caste is deployed, they view everyone on said planet as an active combatant. The Fire Caste will destroy civilian infrastructure in order to create chaos and soften up an enemy (also known as a war crime). A STANDARD tactic the Tau use is to find the biggest, baddest, most heavily defended city and WIPE IT OUT in order to terrify the rest of the population into surrender. What about the Farsight Enclaves you ask? Oh you mean the section of the empire that is ruled by a near-immortal Warrior King? The military dictatorship part of the Tau? That is like if Genghis Khan or Napoleon discovered the secret of immortality and ruled over a section of the Earth and everyone there saw him as such a cool guy because he is so good at war. Even just the concept of doing things for a "Greater Good" is bad. You can justify any atrocity committed because it served the Empire.

[@alastaircollins1145]

It would we bad if humanity had an immortal warrior king, for sure.... just, uh... don't ask questions about the big dude in gold ;)

[@jarekkish5515]

This is why I don't believe in objective morality. Morality is determined by your tribal allegiance, nothing else.

[@moksound19]

This was a helpful post, thank you! I did a rewind on the Tau section because it didn't really drive the point home. They just came across as the closest analogue to modern human warfare. But by your description, the insidious nature of it is more apparent. They're like the Imperium, but with an overactive PR and Marketing Department.

[@ehisey]

​@@moksound19that is becuase the Tau had to get a be worse make over as the original introduction of the Tau had them actually good.

[@i010001]

Be Farsight Enclaves Be a Military Dictatorship Colour everything in red and dark gray like an evil empire Foster a culture of dedication to your commander/dictator Have a war council act as the highest political authority, then staff it with such characters as the clone of a war criminal, a literal mad scientist, and a pyromaniac rebel Literally walk around with your soldiers wearing red shoulder pads with a white circle insignia on them Believe that conflict is inevitable, and that diplomacy comes from the barrel of a gun Utilize extreme, risky tactics that kills a lot of your own soldiers because you believe that "Martyrdom is the highest expression of the Greater Good" and you really need that blitz Otherwise, do brutal "Nuclear Option" tactics like setting off all the volcanos at once or literally summoning daemons to win Somehow, the fanbase is convinced you are the only good guys in the setting ...Successful Enclaves propaganda campaign?

[@Booyaka9000]

"They can't all be bad. What about the Kehletai?" ArbIan: "They swore a lot". Whatabout the Draethri?" ArbIan: "They love S&M" "What about the Khoasps?" ArbIan: "Won't write a Lexicanum entry". "...or the Boaburi?" ArbIan: "They drink out of the bottle without getting a glass". "...or the Jorvax ArbIan: "Won't turn their music down". "...or the Ecto-Saurids?" ArbIan: "They speed through school zones". "...or the Losh?" ArbIan: "Copied the Khoasps". "...or the Necroteks of Naath?" ArbIan: "Won't flush the loo". "...or the Ji'atrix" ArbIan: "Pretentious name".

[@jodypschaeffer]

Orks canonically used to be a much more decent race. Talker, the Madboy from various short stories, talked about the importance of friendship and would frequently put himself in harm's way to protect those he considered friends. The other Orks just wrote this off as "typical on-Orky Madboy behavior". Orkish cruelty and anti-intellectualism is cultural, not biological.

[@user-ow1bc4sx2r]

orks are the stand in for the miscellaneous horde of uncivilized savages that empires throughout history have seen their enemies as. Society is brutish and cruel in a disorganized way. the tau is a stand in for more modern colonial imperialism, sweeping into a place demanding unconditional surrender with threat of superior technology

[@noexpensespentstudios]

You never really forget the first time another player tells you with all sincerity that they play X because they're the good guys.

[@Vulgar_Worlock]

I appreciate the emphasis that the factions of 40k are run by people who could choose to be better at any time, but don't due to their own self assurance that they're right and that their predecessors were also right.

[@foxbat51]

40k was first dreamed up by people living in a post industrial Britain under Tory rule, still living in the shadow of Empire. The description of the Imperium making life "more difficult than it has any reason to be" pretty much nails the politics of the time. And today for that matter...

[@alastaircollins1145]

Not just under Tory rule, they were living under Thatcherite Tory rule. That was some EXTREME nonsense.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

day in the life of a brit

[@frenchy1138]

"War and slavery are bad." Ian, coming in strong with the hot takes this week ;) But jokes aside, I think a lot of the people who engage in Imperium apologia (at least, the non-fascists who do it) are getting caught up in protagonist-centric morality, and since most of the universe is described from a human point of view the trap is there to fall into. And yeah, you could make a case that works orks and nids are amoral rather than immoral, but when what that leads to is death and destruction on a massive scale is still Bad.

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

I mean, sure, the Tau would be villains is Star Wars or Star Trek, but I'll still take them over the Imperium or Chaos any day

[@DisobedientSpaceWhale]

Exactly!!

[@kostas225cmp]

The big issue is that GW, in order to appeal to a wider audience (namely children), constantly depicts the Imperium as the good guys; the protagonists of the setting. Just look at the cinematic trailers for 9th and 10th editions: the humans--even the genetically enhanced super soldiers--are clearly supposed to be the underdog heroes who are trying to fight off the hordes of evil, monstrous aliens bent on destruction. Or all the weirdly Jesus-like imagery that official art has given to Guilliman contrasted with the Satanic portrayal of Abaddon. This first impression colors the image that newcomers to the hobby have to the setting: the space empire is good, and everyone else is evil. And no, saying that it's "just in-universe Imperial propaganda" doesn't make it better. Unless it's *explicitly framed* as such, then any work of fiction is going to be interpreted as it is.

[@LcUlric]

That's because the Imperium is the Protagonist of the setting, and the big money maker for GW, and they don't know how, or more likely don't want to, change the marketing.

[@thenathanimal2909]

Unless you're a troglodyte with zero critical thinking, or a child, you can easily see the satire in the 40k setting.

[@vraska8799]

Jesus-like imagery is as bad as it gets for me.

[@eater_of_garbage_]

This mf doesn't understand satire, symbolism and subtext!! Get him!!!!

[@vanillaicecream2385]

@@LcUlric the game is a humanity focused story, we get very little points of view from other factions outside specific books or tiny snippets in a codex, as we're human we can understand what makes them tick, understanding aliens is a lot harder so the effort goes into the imperium

[@jonathanfavourite]

I see a decent number of people in the comments scratching their heads at the notion that there might be anyone out there who doesn't get that everyone in 40k is terrible and the Imperium is in fact completely f'd up. Books and wiki articles do a good job of showing the satirical over-the-top villainy of every faction, especially the human ones, so how are there people who don't get it? Well, most newcomers don't start with the books. The biggest gateway into 40k for the past decade has been video games, and almost all of them good-wash the player-controlled faction and make no attempt to convey context or nuance; it's just completely binary, good vs evil hero narratives. Not all games, but most, and certainly the more popular ones, and the image of 40k they project reaches a whole lot more people than the books these days.

[@ropable]

Then there was that (apparently serious) video of the guy arguing that the Tau Empire was the most-evil faction, because they....tricked people into fighting for them.

[@SimonClark]

And yet people still make kneejerk reaction videos about "twitter discovering 40k" and protesting that it's not somehow incredibly fascist. Like, that's the entire point!

[@deaconlasagna8570]

you are the greatest 40k commentator I've ever encountered. you simultaneously get what is so compelling about the IP, and so ethically terrifying about this fictional universe, and silly about people who see anything in the setting as aspirational.

[@JonBoy79]

I like Joe Abercrombie's idea of good and evil here. It's not good vs bad. It's bad vs worse.

[@eltriunvirato66]

Damnd Abercrombie mate, that´s some good books right there

[@michaelgrey1351]

I do like that the most moral person in the First Law trilogy is the child murderer.

[@michaelgrey1351]

That reads worse than it sounded in my head....

[@craigbrown04]

@@michaelgrey1351you have to be realistic

[@dmgroberts5471]

It's "will work you to death in a factory then process you into food" vs "will torture you for lols" vs "will mutate your DNA so your children are all horrific hybrids that mind control you." I mean, the Imperium is horrible, but at least they let you live until you die of exhaustion. There's a lot to say for not suffering appalling body horror. 😂😜

[@greendalf123]

This is why I hate how modern 40K is represented. I remember in 3rd era and around it these were clear realities of 40K. Now it gets muddled by colourful art, marines being called heroic by gw, it’s almost noble. You can say this is from the twisted human pov but I just find it utterly weak. I liked when 40K portrayed the setting honestly and brutally. Shit you don’t even see blood in art anymore.

[@Noorthia]

you need to work on being able to separate objective and subjective narrators. many wh40k books are written from an imperial point of view and contain imperial propaganda.

[@greendalf123]

@@Noorthia I get that, it's still overplayed.

[@django3422]

​@@NoorthiaSo why don't they get Black Library to write more books from other perspectives?

[@Antidisinformation]

I’m surprised that you didn’t mention that the imperium has, in places, LITERAL BABY BLENDERS to dump mutant babies in (source: the first Warhammer Crime Book)

[@bigyeticane]

I loved this video, man. I am a Genestealer Cults player. This sort of explanation is exactly why I love the cults. Cults are so effective because the prey upon oppressed people. And what kind of human populates the Grimdark more than any other? Oppressed humans. It's fun to get into stories about various cults because most are ultimately populated by people who are suffering under the yoke of imperial slavery. It's just that it's 40k. So of course, the freedom fighter faction also needs to be some sort of monster as well, lol.

[@serarthurdayne9490]

GSC aren’t freedom fighters. They are indoctrinated religious fanatics.

[@EngHag]

Fantastic video, love it! Would you mind adding why talons of the emperor suck as well? The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence. Obviously I understand why they're bad but you're putting a fun spin on it.

[@mitochondriatrashgoblin3316]

So much salt went into the script of this video and I agree with it so hard. Thank you for taking this obviously correct yet somehow unpopular stance.

[@captainweekend5276]

It's not an unpopular stance, it's just a lot of 40k fans don't feel the need to publicly flog themselves all the time about enjoying something in which the characters are evil. Also given when people go to the effort to point out something so obvious, it always has this patronizing tone despite preaching about something that is generally regarded as an unspoken fact. You aren't smart or insightful for picking up on the fact that all the 40k factions are bad, and acting like it's a big deal just makes you look foolish due to it being so obvious. If you feel the need to flagellate yourself because you enjoy a series in which the confines of a fictional universe doesn't hold itself to the standards of modern progressive politics then go ahead, but the majority really isn't bothered by it.

[@kef0205]

@ThaUltimateHunter I think there's probably a fair few fans - like me - who don't. I'm a very casual fan: I like the lore in concept, I follow channel's like Ian's, I have a read a Ciaphas Cane book. The Imperium are presented as a fairly moral group being driven by their subservience to a capricious god and a LOT of the media presents a lot of named characters as unambiguous heroes. And I imagine Ian's point is that when that's _all_ you see you're missing out on the intended experience as a satire.

[@johnnybigbones4955]

@ThaUltimateHunter I tend to agree. Ian is right on the details but GW are being a bit hypocritical making statements about how the Imperium is bad when they're the ones that created the impression they weren't with decades of art and background writing.

[@kef0205]

@ThaUltimateHunter See, I don't know any of that shit. 3rd edition counts, right? People still remember it, if only the lore. So I liked this video.

[@bigprobllama]

​@@captainweekend5276💯%

[@jacobhogg7208]

You could consider the motivation of revenge, A-bad-one...

[@ArbitorIan]

He sure is a BADDUN

[@jacobhogg7208]

@@ArbitorIan My brain made it half the way there haha :D

[@budderk1305]

oh boy, it's the year 2023 and we have to remind everyone that the Imperium is indeed bad, cause GW needs to write books about Roboute maybe having a conscience and the humans needing to be 'relatable', ugh so thank you for picking up the slack Ian

[@lil_truth]

You have to remind everyone? Who do you think you are? Narcissist much?

[@Kunori]

GW: So we've made the most awful form of government possible. It has all the stupidity of monarchy, all the cultural and literal inbreeding of aristocracy, all the madness of theocracy, all the incessant infighting of democracy, all the ruthless cruelty of capitalism, all the bloated bureaucracy of communism, all the corruption of oligarchy. The only reason it doesn't keel over and die is that it's so indescribably huge that it takes thousands of years to collapse and keeps eating more of the galaxy to keep itself alive. We need it purely to justify a setting where there is only war. Some fans: Aspirational, if only it were real.

[@OK-hl6qd]

I remember in the 2nd edition, regular human IG soldiers were depicted as terrified of space marines even though they were supposed to be allies.

[@dahn57]

Considering how many Space Marine chapters treat humans, it's a sensible reaction! They ARE the Angels of Death remember, and the vast majority of humanity will have had no contact with them whatsoever to find out that they are NOT death to everyone in the vicinity! Some Space Marine chapters care nothing whatsoever for humanity, and some are actively hostile, even on the loyalist side

[@DiceandGlory]

Transhuman dread is a thing in current lore as well

[@fish7598]

I do debate a lot about how GW should present the factions and setting of 40k. I think the simple truth is that their "satire" argument has honestly been kind of weak, for quite some time now. I debate a lot on if various factions should be "rehabilitated" to an extent in order to make them function better in the less-satirical setting we've ended up with, or if it's better to keep them as they are and simply make that more prominent and obvious to get rid of the "rooting for the empire" effect we see so commonly. At the moment it really feels like GW wants to have it's cake and eat it too

[@Kim_Jong-un1356]

Of course I root for the empire. They're the only ones fighting for my species. I agree on the satire argument is worthless though.

[@ArbitorIan]

It's fictional. They're not fighting for your species. You're an outside observer.

[@Kim_Jong-un1356]

@@ArbitorIan The empire is fighting for the survival of the human species in the fictional universe that is the game, yes. Your point is?

[@honoratagold]

I think the original problem here was beginning to err too much on Chaos having absolutely no redeeming qualities -- GW and BL have been turning from the earlier 'Chaos are assholes, but it's a reasonable response to the authoritarian Imperium' and 'Chaos is bad but each Chaos god embodies good and bad things and it's people being like they are that has pushed them so far into badness-only' which have both largely been retconned. once Chaos becomes inarguably, overwhelmingly, always very very moustache-twirling bad, it starts to make the Imperium's behavior look justified to some people as a response to Chaos. If Chaos is literal hell, then anything that is not Chaos seems a little less bad. Making everyone bad but also having realistically grey elements would have helped, but it's far, far too late now imo.

[@fish7598]

@@honoratagold Hugely agree. I think the factions of 40k work best when there is a sense of logic to them and a reason why they function the way they do. That doesn't mean they have to be "good" or "relatable", but we should be able to understand why they are the way they are. Chaos (and non-chaos aligned imperial renegades) then to get the shortest end of the stick when it comes to this which is a damn shame because I think they have the space to offer some of the most compelling perspectives in the setting!

[@lukaspkhakadze3021]

If everyone is so bad, what about sweet ogryns? They didn't hurt anybody

[@ArbitorIan]

Ok fine, Ogryns are GOOD BOYS

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

It is very interesting how almost every faction of Warhammer 40K is a reflection of the worst traits of humanity itself!

[@razmere924]

""The Imperium is besieged on all sides by xenos and chaos threats! They have no choice!"" Yeah, cuz The Emperor kicked every hornets nest in the galaxy and killed off every other faction that could have been a potential ally against chaos. The Imperium is in a mess OF THEIR OWN MAKING! Robbie G spent three whole books going "Oh wow this is all very bad!"

[@R17inator]

To quote Civvie11 about 40k: "From what I understand, from a distance, there's a lot of factions that are all fighting, and every one of them has a strong 'are we the baddies' energy."

[@olabolob]

Certainly my favourite 40K channel about, great video as always

[@BecauseOfDragons]

Bloody brilliant "are we the bad guys?" - "yes, we're all bad"

[@OpalisPissed]

Totally agree. I mean, I kinda zoned out when you talked about my favourite faction, but they are the only ones who are actually not really bad so I am sure I didn't miss anything :P

[@grozwald]

I think Davey Chappy said it best (I'm paraphrasing here): "40k went from 'Everything's terrible, isn't this great!?' in Rogue Trader to 'Everything's terrible. Why are you laughing?' in 3rd and beyond."

[@disgruntledtoons]

There isn't a good faction in the official lore, but it is piss easy to whip one up and it would make for very interesting table-top play. Take some Imperial Guards who get cut off and decide that the Empire doesn't care enough about them (if necessary, fragging their commissars in the process), some Tau who think that the Greater Good sucks (perhaps being immune to whatever the Ethereal Caste does to control the rest), and some non-Dark Aeldari who decide that after the Fall of the Aeldari that a bit of humility is in order. These three groups find themselves on some backwater world, facing one or more of the factions who genuinely cannot be trusted (Orks, Chaos, Drukahri, Necrons, Tyranids). They form an alliance of convenience that goes on long enough for their mutual xenophobia to dwindle to the point that while they won't let the other factions marry their daughters they stop actively hating each other. The factions begin to learn from each other. IG leadership becomes less dysfunctional, and their latent psykers gain the advice of the Aeldari on controlling their powers. The Tau learn how to handle a tactical situation when the battle plan goes pear-shaped (because that happens to the IG *every* time). The Aeldari learn that these two younger races really aren't so stupid after all. Naturally they not only have the original enemies as before, but they also gain the enmity of the Imperium (as traitors, of course) and the Tau (who wear a mask of compassion over the same motives). For the table-top, they lose their top-tier units (no Baneblades or Avatars of Khaine), but do gain somewhat from the better variety of deployable forces (better ranged units from the Tau, higher-movement units from the Aeldari, butt-loads of cheap units from the IG).

[@Tresham1]

AAAB is such a brilliant joke. Bless you sir.

[@adrianjorgensen3750]

I’ve always felt the Dark Eldar are the most honest faction in 40k. They just kill because they enjoy it.

[@cornixdemetrius7883]

Along with Night Lords. They don't praise chaos, they just skin people for their own entertainment.

[@jaegerbomb269]

In the words of the Sanguinor, "there is always hope." 😇

[@halflingspy8111]

The last lines of this were perfect, I definitely laughed out loud. Great delivery of the script! Friends and I love shouting at each other "yeah? well your side is even WORSE than my side!" when we're talking about the game, but its definitely important to keep in mind that all factions are pretty awful in the grand scheme of things.

[@geofff.3343]

I think people forget that you're literally playing in a galaxy that is at the nadir or headed toward the nadir of its existence. It's over. Every faction is circling the drain. Their best days are behind them. With exception to the pitiable Tau who are getting swept down the drain by everyone else and are too young and stupid to know how late to the party they are, and they're still bad. In any other setting they'd be the evil aliens, it's just here, by comparison, they look normal.

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Yep, BAD. In that vein, I’d love to hear you do a video on 2000ads influence on 40K if that’s an area that interests. I think that rich vein of British broadly satirical dystopia is often missed by non Brits…

[@bigprobllama]

Because people don't miss it. They get there's satire but most think it's overrated and paper thin and some pretentious guy always bring it up when talking about a comicbook Meanwhile, everyone is entertained by Judge Dredd cuz he is an awesome badass kicking ass and taking names

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

@@bigprobllama deleted an even longer comment. Well; sure Dredd is that too. Actually the rationale for the judges is not unlike that for the Imperium. OTOH Nemesis might be against Termight but he’s a total asshole who happily sacrifices human lives. The Southers might be better than the Norts but they’re still absolute war criminals. And so on. So maybe you can see why I would say the comic is spiritually a far bigger influence that, say, Dune. Classic 2000ad highlights that UK mass market science fiction has always been generally dystopian, bleak and satirical compared to US. People want to live in Star Trek, perhaps even Star Wars. No one in their right mind would want to live in Mega City One. Unless you do? ;-)

[@billyrandell]

I'd love to see a follow up where we also look into some of the smaller groups and factions, especially the ones that are sometimes pointed to as being more humane or cooperative, or fighting for a just cause. Like part of me wanted to say "what about the Gretchin Revolutionary Kommittee, they seem like some decent homies" But I'm sure someone who know more lore than me could point out all sorts of shady stuff various head honchos and Red Gobbos have done in the name of justice and freedom.

[@athena3234]

Yeh biggest omission for me from this was Farsight Enclaves

[@dahn57]

@@athena3234 It's ok, they too are bad 😉

[@athena3234]

@@dahn57 actual tho? I don’t know a heap of their lore but yeh they seem ait on the face of it

[@Dinker27]

Perhaps The Salamanders?

[@athena3234]

@@Dinker27 still bad Genociding n all that

[@khebba6683]

AHA! but what if MY homebrew space marines were GOOD? huh? what about THAT! what if my chapter spends their time making DAISY CHAINS and BUILDING ORPHANAGES?? what if they like BAKING CAKES for their diverse cast of alien FRIENDS?? Checkmate.

[@underarmbowlingincidentof1981]

I mean that is the beauty of 40k isn't it... for everything to be open for creativity. That said I have now decided that they only build orphanages to use them as bait for the upcoming Dark Eldar raid.

[@ArbitorIan]

And definitely not killing ANYONE

[@ITCamefromthePage]

This is why I love 40K in novels because at best it's a study of humans trying to survive in the WORST possible circumstances LOL. This was a fantastic video!

[@ITCamefromthePage]

By Humans I mean...normal blue collar folks. Like studying the life of the guy who constantly works in a horrible munitorium factory or the front line grunts.

[@chrisbumface2990]

I refute your statement by mentioning the Lamenters. EVERYTHING BAD happens to them but they still hold on for a just cause.

[@etiennegarant7545]

The argument that Tyranids are somehow less bad because they are more akin to a natural calamity than a sentient organism capable of moral choice is questionable. By their consumption of all the biomass and most resources on the world they consume, they do not seek mere survival; they are out there to multiply in spite of any notion of equilibrium. They want everything. Their greed is absolute and complete, to the detriment of every other life form; in the absolute long run, to their own certain detriment as well. That would qualify as evil.

[@DelightfulTyrant]

It's not questionable, it's stupid. They have transcendent sentience.

[@timothyharnedy4495]

Are viruses evil? I think evilness does imply a choice to do something that has negative effects on others. So, a murderer is evil, but cancer is not, although, obviously, diseases can cause immense suffering. But I think there's enough in the background to suggest that the Tyranids have higher organisms who are capable of making choices, or a collective consciousness that can do the same, and so I'd mark them down as making choices and choosing to be as evil as everything else.

[@avinashtyagi2]

Do you worry about the cows you slaughter for your burgers? No...unless you're vegan You just chow down on as many as you can Also you do this knowing it leads to habitat destruction and deforestation and climate change that kills other animals by the millions as well So you are arguing that you yourself are evil

[@CanonessEllinor]

The Tyranids do resemble a natural force, but that force is that of a deadly virus plague. A mindless thing that only seeks to multiply (vira are questionably alive, just as the tyranids are questionably sentient), destroying its host in the process, and eventually depriving itself of what it needs to live. Tyranids in a lot of ways represent nature’s wrath, but the way they leave nothing behind make them more like a perversion of evolution. A natural process out of balance, turning self-destructive.

[@thenathanimal2909]

The biological drive to survive, procreate, and out compete is in every animal. They're not greedy, because they are as amoral as an amoeba floating around a pond procreating and trying to out compete all other microorganisms.

[@darnokx9277]

Well said, and very entertaining to watch. What kinda drives me up the wall is that this even needs to be said AT ALL. It needs some special type of stupid to believe there are actually "good" factions in 40K: you have to be either very stupid, willfully ignorant, malicious, or a combination of all three to do so.

[@kieran2221]

This is awesome - thank you for making this clear to those who are new to the hobby as a reminder!

[@gothmorg3657]

They're bad Dave. Who is? Everbody Dave. The Eldar? Evebody is bad Dave. What, the Tau as well? Everbody is bad Dave. The space marines? They are all bad, everbody's bad Dave. The orks aren't are they? Everbody is bad Dave! Not the Imperial Guard. Yes! Imperial guard, Eldar, everbody is bad! Chaos? They're bad, everbody bad, everbody is bad Dave! Wait are you trying to tell me everbody in 40K is bad?

[@40kpunk45]

This video basically unpacks why I love the 40k universe so much. It also shows quite clearly how this was a very British creation of satire in the same vein as tank girl and judge Dredd. That era of 80s British sci-fi really was gold dust and I’m so glad 40k has sustained in the way it has. It’s also why GW must never sell to an American company!

[@TheCakeIsntReal]

appalled at very idea that the night lords could be evil

[@ArbitorIan]

THEY BAD. Spooky and bad

[@justsomeogrewithinternetac1494]

​@@ArbitorIantheir not evil they just needed a new SKIN-care routine

[@Matt-dn5jc]

THE TORTURE BATMANS?

[@Nemrex]

For the T'au an early theme that GW was goin for 'em that I kinda miss is that they really were the good faction, but what made them grimdark was not the sinister and hypercritical motives that were hidden underneath in later developments, but that they were this tiny blip of "hope" in a galaxy of despair that would be eventually crushed. Either out of them as they continued to expand, or just by the Imperium itself when it finally has the proper chance to deal with them or the myriad other factions. To me it made it feel more grimdark that way. Sure you can have a good faction in this universe, but it doesn't really matter what they do or who they are. Eventually they too will be swept away by the sheer weight of violence, despair, betrayal, pain, ect of the galaxy.

[@stevenagelutton4322]

I mean from their first codex they're deliberately unleashing the Kroot on Imperial scouts and going "alas, how brutal" as their allies eat humans alive. Gav Thorpe even did an interview about their early design, mentioning he based a lot of their unit names on NATO-style buzzwords. It's not war, it's "peacekeeping". It's not loads of tanks, it's an "Armoured Interdiction Cadre". Masking both the war itself and how it's fought as something less bloody than it is. One can imagine Water Caste war propaganda being very similar to footage from the Gulf War, with breathless news anchors hyping up the new Seeker Missiles over endless footage of missiles taking off.

[@franciscoguinledebarros4429]

I don't think that was necessarily lost per se, maybe they simply already grew out of it, like you mentioned, or in a way the Farsight Enclaves took up that mantle (I say that because I don't know any major obviously bad point for them, but with 40k finding the bad in a faction is not an If but a When)

[@Nemrex]

@@franciscoguinledebarros4429 agreed

[@bbaii16]

Great video and well-said. As a follow up, I’d love to hear about why you so deeply enjoy the fluff even when the factions are so awful. I really enjoy it too but, aside from the silliness and power fantasy, struggle to explain WHY I like it so much in the face of all the fictional misery. You will have your own reasons, of course, but likely also have some very interesting thoughts around the question.

[@mouthyschannel2474]

Bricky said his reasons in a great way. "Bad guys are cool. Bad guys get the best clothes, lines, weapons, everything is cool about a bad guy. In Warhammer, everyone is a bad guy! So everyone is cool!" That and for me, I love how it's like a Smash Bros of evil. Everyone is here! Fascists, racists, Communists, Capitalists, religious extremism, excess, every faction is a different flavour of evil. So you can have fun being like "Today I wanna see greed vs lust" or "How about a game of classism vs torture?" in a weird sense.

[@233Hicks]

thank you for using the term "fluff"!

[@gr8tbigtreehugger]

Mostly, for me, it's just shocking. Who can think up these crazy things? How do GW keep topping the insanity? What can possibly be next?

[@Prederick]

I genuinely snickered at every single "BAD" label that appeared in this video. Because honestly, sometimes it does feel like people need the reminder. Fantastic, hilarious work, as always. EDIT: Emphasis on the hilarious. Warhammer is not a comedy, but I do feel like sometimes we forget that this is absurd nonsense (which is why it's great!)

[@Fliss317]

There was an advert from a furniture compay that went like this: Ian: "They are B- Ad: -uilding a better home!" Which is an amusing thing to say in relation to the forces of Chaos 😂

[@celestiallions4050]

"so what's your kink?" "British men explaining why I'm bad, apparently"

[@ArbitorIan]

I should start an OF telling models they're BAD

[@alpharius4434]

Every time Arbitor Ian comes out with a vids, I have to stop everything in my life for at least the next 15 minutes, and everytime I do it, it's is well worth it. Great video ! Huh... I mean really BAD one ! 😄

[@ArbitorIan]

BAD!

[@kraftyevan]

The Imperium actually doesn't care if you revolt... against your planetary governor. As long as the planet pays their taxes and aren't heretical, that's all they care about. It's canon that there are paradise worlds that make earth look like torture to live on and planets that make Necromunda look like paradise. The galaxy is HUGE and a shocking amount of planets are kinda just like earth with a Warhammer coat of paint.

[@scarletfatefan8793]

That point about Star Wars was eye opening. And it makes sense too- at least 40K recognizes that it’s endless wars between religious extremists are a bad thing.

[@ArbitorIan]

I wish Mandalorian would recognise that religious extremists are a bad thing!

[@scarletfatefan8793]

@@ArbitorIan Eh that i kinda let slide- the mandolorians in that show are recovering from an attempted genocide, it makes sense that some would become more insular as an effort to survive and preserve their culture. But I get what you mean. The armorer definitely is shady as shit. I was mainly refering to the jedi and sith conflict.

[@yoshi4tube]

Very fun video! I think it would be fun for you to make the opposite video, arguing why all the 40k Factions are "good" or at least have good reason to do what they do.