Everybody hates Kris...but why?

[@Swordsmaster]

After reading through the dialogue again, especially for that one scene where Kris "stole" lines from Jagen, the only thing I could really find is that Kris and Jagen both call Lang out for being rude to Marth, but Jagen still comes up to Lang and tells him to square up. Scene appears to be unchanged otherwise. I think I have been hating on Kris too much because the fandom has gotten to me. I should just stop because I recall liking Kris (not as much as Robin and Corrin) when I first played NM and found nothing wrong with them (even if I hadn't played FE3 at the time yet).

[@hadoukenfighter]

The fire emblem fanbase and hating characters for completely made up reasons that aren't supported by the game? Must be another day that ends in Y! No really this happens all the time with just about every entry of the series and its insanity, but this might just be my boomer ass getting fed up with trying to discuss the series, good video.

[@_Hamler]

If you need another example, look at Matthis

[@decarabiaumbra560]

@@_Hamler People dislike Matthis? I thought he was the rising star unit of Archanea much like how FEH endeared Reinhardt to people who've never played Thracia.

[@_Hamler]

@@decarabiaumbra560 people dogged on him A LOT before 5 Points redeemed his reputation

[@lspuria8440]

"I wish I had a little docile brother like you" -Kris

[@daosxion776]

When mangs and mekkah did their playthrough of the remake, they fell into the plot pitfalls of kris and really did make all the assumptions you said people do.

[@FireEmbros]

“Ironic, they made pitfall videos, but couldn’t stop from falling into the pitfalls themselves. “ -Darth Sidious (don’t fact check this)

[@BardockSkywalker]

I mean, it's Mangs & Mekkah, are they really known for knowing what good or bad storytelling & writing is?

[@shinyraikou1518]

A discussion on Kris that doesn't involve constant bashing for things they didn't do? It's very refreshing seeing NM come more into the light because of how mistaken the community is on our first playable Avatar (No hate, but we did get a self insert tactician in Mark for 7 despite not being normally playable, though evidence suggests it was planned and scrapped later in development, so Kris is in the case of not necessarily being our 'first' avatar) I will say the Prologue sets is where Kris is most notoriously praised, but it isn't unwarranted. Katarina saw Kris go toe to toe with Jagen and a soldier alone, Luke and Rody get their teeth kicked in the 2 v 2 game for leader, showing why they trust the protag, and then for the instances where the avatar fights and beats veterans of the war in Jeorge/Athena, Draug/Ogma, and Cain/Est, it makes more sense in lore at least why the Platoon talk so highly of Kris, even if it's a bit much overall. Another point to flesh out, it's even more likely Marth to know his own history as a literal descendant of Anri, so the history lesson on him in that case is very unneeded, adding onto why Kris having the lore be explained makes way more sense to us the player, and not Marth, the Lord who should know his ancestor's main story Kris may still be a bit of a wet paper towel of a character, but for a first attempt in making a playable Avatar woven into the story, Kris makes for a fine jumping point, even if there are other problems, with the most absurd to me being how hard they can snowball in a game with usually pretty average/okay characters being the way the game goes (But that's enough rambling here, I do love FE 12 and it's a shame how little love the game gets, despite being a pretty good sequel imo. NM and it's prequel SD deserve more love than what they got)

[@hanzou1238]

I like FE12 but I would personally just play FE3 because it is more fun to me.

[@paperluigi6132]

Us Archanea fans have to stick together.

[@obiwancannoli1920]

I think the fact that it wasn't officially released definitely cut into its popularity

[@decarabiaumbra560]

I've always seen Kris as a less intrusive Alear. Both are fairly minimal and inoffensive personality wise, and suffer from too much worship from their respective casts of characters. Kris's a good combatant too, which really helps in a game designed for iron-manning.

[@Slenderquil]

I played through the first few chapters of New mystery recently and remember being offput by the Jagen sword scene too. I think it has to do with kris being the one to stand up against Lang, yet Marth praises only Jagen. It makes it feel like Kris was later inserted into the scene, regardless of if he actually was or not. I even thought the fan translation might've messed something up. If it's not Kris stealing lines, it's questionable writing that makes it seem that way. I remember being disappointed that so many of the support conversations ended up just being there to show off how awesome and strong and cool and hardworking kris was as well. That alongside him being your best unit really makes him feel like he got too much unnecessary favoritism . The outfit scenes are honestly my favorite thing about kris. They add fun interactions and added some nice character customization options. I really love the headband kris can get

[@FireEmbros]

Yeah there is a lot of Kris, but not in the main story, which is a very weird effect. Either way I thought it was a good topic to explore :)

[@nessdbest8708]

@@FireEmbros I'm gonna get some hate for saying this, but i wish kris was the emblem in engage instead of Marth

[@obiwancannoli1920]

​​@@nessdbest8708tbf IS should retire Marth by now

[@obiwancannoli1920]

Cecil's hedband looks so cool. Wish Wrys made you completely bald tho xdd

[@nessdbest8708]

@@obiwancannoli1920 he does

[@FrogPrinceMichael61]

I think this is the first time someone has used "Mandela Effect" properly

[@TwoHeadedMeerkat]

Yeah, I recently replayed New Mystery, and I fully expected Kris to steal Jagen's challenge to Lang since that's what everyone always talks about. I didn't _remember_ Kris ever saying this, and I was a little confused when Jagen still said it. Thought maybe it was a fan-translation liberty like the Project Exile dialogue rewrites. But no, later on during a Base Conversation, it's still mentioned how Jagen told Lang to step up and throw hands. Kris was okay for me. Fairly boring, but I'm grateful they existed to let so many underdeveloped Archanea characters _have_ support conversations, even if just with Kris. My only real gripe with them is the hat-scenes kinda just...acting as tonal whiplash sometimes? But I really like the assassin subplot and all the characters that came with it, so it's a fine trade-off for me

[@Olimario34]

i like Kris because she's Katarina's GF and i like Katarina

[@maskolino3533]

Everybody haaaaates Kriiiiiiiiiiissssss

[@Yarharsuperpirate]

Ironically. I like Kris because he isn't the true center of the universe. Yeah he took some lines from Jagen and some others in the story, but absolutely nothing changes from the original plot if you write him out of new mystery entirely I just like my avatar characters in games like these to just feel like another character among the roster. And not be THE main character. Robin, Corrin, and Alear I have some level of distaste for (Robin the least so since he feels the most like an actual character) Kris is just kinda there, chilling with the rest of the roster. And acts as a way for others to actually flesh out their character by having someone to actually talk to. Which the archanea roster DESPERATELY needed He also makes sense as someone to dump lore on, because he's a from a remote village that this kind of stuff isn't common knowledge of. No reason to lore dump on Jagen for example, because he most likely knows these stories from being a knight in altea for so long

[@HarryKoakuma]

I agree. While overall I like it more when Fire Emblem doesn't have an avatar character at all, the recent trend of making the avatar character the centerpiece of the plot is particularly obnoxious. I really wish we could go back to the avatar being just another of the lord's personal knights/advisors, rather than making the avatar the actual main character/chosen one/divine dragon/etc.

[@Fruitman1997]

I've never seen ANY Kris hate - ever. What I WILL say though, is I barely ever see anyone say that Kris is their favourite, or one of their favourite characters, and that's 100% due to New Mystery being JP only. If it was released in the rest of the world, this wouldn't be an issue. My hot take and personal opinion is this; Kris is a better avatar character than Corrin and I will not be convinced otherwise.

[@MajorLargo]

Being a better avatar than Corrin is still a pretty low bar to be fair.

[@Fruitman1997]

@@MajorLargo true yet here we are with Corrin plastered all over recent games, multiple alts in Feh, Smash, etc etc etc Corrin is awful but that doesn’t change the public perception that they’re popular.

[@sparkyndoggo7937]

I actually like Kris, he's Marth's shadow by choice, I feel he fills the same role as robin does for chrom (I phrased it like this since I played Awakening before New Mystery of the Emblem game)

[@darriusaustin7436]

Nice vid just finished my plus 10 female Kris today.

[@peterbc6129]

My issue with Kris, is probably to do with how present he feels. And being inserted into a game he shouldn't have been in. FE 3 already had a story, and this was just a "Remake/Remaster" of that game. And more than anything else, the Prologue chapters, plus supports, make Kris feel WAAAAY more prevalent than he is. Absolutely it's a feeling, more than reality, as to his prevalence, but going through the game, I can't help but feel it's "Kris Emblem", despite how much it isn't. Probably because I OHKO like 50% of bosses with Kris because he's cracked beyond belief but still. While I did enjoy the Gaidan chapters added for him and the assassins (having one of the best boss themes around and decent levels), I more just feel Kris shouldn't have been in this game. That being said: The idea of customizing a character, down to their class and influencing growths, was fantastic and I still go back to do it for fun.

[@something1558]

Haven't watched yet but just wanna say I love avatar characters. It kinda makes it hard to say since I always see people hate on them but I love the flexibilty they add from a gameplay standpoint and while I can't really get the self insert thing making your own chara in a fe is cool.

[@EZog58]

Part of why Kris is my favorite, the class selection and growth rate manipulation from the get go,plus no prf class or weapon, makes Kris feel the most unique from a gameplay perspective compared to other avatars. Kris feels more like a My Unit than a Avatar and I wish that was the direction they kept going with.

[@Kakashi10ist]

Hi, Several things: 1- Kris avatar represents YOU the player. Makes sense the central focus an dump of info to him. 2- Hilarious many conversations specially the healer that had the idea Marth was in love with her. 3- The original crew specially The archer( Yes I said the archer Ryan), and Luke will be good unit at the end. Meaning you can play the entire game with them and they will pull their weight. Not Like the others Fire emblem that initial members are outclass and becomes weak no matter how much effort you put into them. Going into a Tangent here but will be cool if they add that if you play with original/starter members all the game have another ending and cool one besides letting them be at par with the new members if you dedicate time to them.

[@darkdragonmedeus705]

I think Kris is a very underrated Avatar. One of my slight disappointments with Robin is that I liked the idea of choosing a base class and was so excited for FE12 and disappointed that it never got released outside of Japan. Also, while most of his dialogues are added filler with minimal contributions to the story, they were also generally harmless and also brought out side characters having a lot more character. There's also dialogue that can very in the prologue such as their interactions with Elice. Their response to Elice's controversial translation about "Being a weak child" when it's really more accurate that she's calling him a lamb (Which is a slang means humble, innocent, pacifist and more accurate to Marth's personality). Which when they have Wise as a personality, they showcase that even King's are still human. While other personality descriptions have them expressing either doubt or even calling her out about that being a "Harsh comment." And those are before hearing her out that she doesn't mean that in terms of physical strength or combat capability but rather his saintly nature. Also, I kind of notice Kris having a relationship to Marth similar to what Simon Peter has for Jesus. Being like a close friend who is also quick to lash out at the enemy. And yeah, the only unit who comes close to Kris in potency is Palla, and even she doesn't quite reach their level given Kris just had so much to build off of throughout Prologue and so much to make use of between the character building to enhance growths and bases as well as reclassing combinations. Before the male set merge, Female Kris becomes dominant via the switching between Cavalier and Pegasus Knight; and later Paladin and Dracoknight. And after male set merge, making male Kris Armor Knight/General who reclasses to Paladin or Dracoknight if defense becomes high enough or from Fighter that swaps between that and Pirate and eventually to Dracoknight to buff strength, speed, and HP a huge margin while also proficiency in axes to boot. All so great combo builds.

[@ResurgentRaven]

Personally, I love Male Kris. He embodies pretty much the most qualities I think a good central character within the plot should have without having too much "main character syndrome" energy, which is what characters like Corrin, Byleth, and Alear all suffered from. Another thing I'm surprised people forget is how good Kris's combat actually is. He's available for the whole game, can start as any class you want, and is the only reason you can realistically get past the Prologue chapters in Lunatic Reverse. His supports aren't grand, but reminder that this is still the era of FE where supports are still really bland. It isn't until Awakening that characters are way more fleshed out in their supports and characteristics. Finally, the big gimmick around Kris that makes FE12 stand out is its side plot revolving around Katarina and her assassins. Hot take: This side plot is the best part of the whole game. Just overall hard hitting, especially with Clarisse's death, and Eremiah learning of her orphaned children's deaths at the hands of Gharnef. Male Kris x Katarina is also one of my favorite fictional shippings period. I love these two so much. What about Female Kris? Yeah Female Kris can stow it, Male Kris is way better.

[@LadyIno]

I pretty much agree with everything you've said and just wanted to add that male Kris can be grouped together with Mark and Shez as "normal" and not worshipped MCs (and I don't care if Three Warriors is canon or not, Shez is great and deserved his/her own real fe game). All those three avatar characters, while being very important in their own games, are not the center of the universe so other characters don't stand in line to lick their boots or to love every single action they're taking (I hate Pepsi girl and Corrin so much for that). They feel much more relatable to me, despite Mark not having any dialog at all iirc. Mark and Lyn being best friends and everyone knowing Mark is the tactician of their army is perfectly enough. I also don't get the people who hate Kris, the guy has such a pure heart. I loved him especially for his innocent and naive thinking about the... unique... hair style options later in the game.

[@SirePuns]

@@LadyIno Shez really was a breath of fresh air after Corrin and Byleth... And while their personality is a bit on the generic side, I personally think that it was what was needed in a cast full of traumatized young adults.

[@decarabiaumbra560]

What's wrong with F!Kris? Isn't she just M!Kris but feminine?

[@hyperm8]

@@SirePuns Byleth wasn't even bad tho? The only issue is that the game doesn't let him have voiced lines but besides that he's a decent character. FEH, Hopes and Engage really redeemed Byleth imo.

[@mauricioalvarezpino1818]

@@hyperm8 It was bad, Byleth had no character, all the other characters were effectively talking to and praising a brick wall that occasionally gave them stuff they lost. Having no emotions is not an excuse to not have a personality. Byleth does indeed get better in all of their next appearances though so that part about redemption is correct.

[@gabrielclamens3151]

A pretty interesting video ! Again, I voiced some of my thoughts on the Donclave, but it really helps to correct a few things Might give another shot to fe12 I suppose... Concerning Kris suddenly "vanishing" at the end, it's probably the devs being like "oh yeah, it's a fe3 remake, Kris didn't exist so bam, let's secretely say he never existed" I'm not a huge fan of Kris myself, find them a little bland, and I kinda blame him to start the awful trend we're suffering in modern FE... But while I used to hate him, nowadays it's more like..."meh" At least, FE12 let us use Athena without some dumb requirements, and it has Cecil, so based And damn, your Kris was fabulous through that whole video, even being a dragon !

[@mahomisawa4172]

Aside from the "story", or perhaps lack of. Gameplay for me personally I felt that kris, especially on the higher difficulties was way too overcentralizing. I wasnt a big fan of the prologue either, though its not really kris fault and just fe12 in general. Also you know well everything else. I'd say a part or most of it is legitimate, and the rest is like, a bit blown out of proportion and scapegoating, and more like just blaming kris for starting the whole avatar fiesta (every game that is not a remake has had an avatar) and all the "attached tropes"

[@spencerthompson9091]

I never really like player characters in my fire emblem

[@fireembliam9090]

2:35 Is that you.

[@Zerobasssoul]

I put him in the same camp as Faye from echoes. Good unit with no reason to talk.

[@dmas7749]

i always thought that the hate for Kris was extremely overblown. i don't particularly like that (s)he started the trend of overpowered self-insert characters, but aside from the prologue (s)he hardly takes up the story, and, if you're that bothered, and not playing on Lunatic Reverse, (s)he can sit on the bench for literally the whole game afterwards.

[@JoeShmoe102]

I've always just felt that the addition of Kris was superfluous - both for story and for gameplay. The story works just fine without him, and his forced deployment (I think he's force-deployed? It's been a while since I've played FE12 so I can't remember for sure) makes it hard to experiment with team-building. I mean, there's already the FE3 original cast, plus all the new characters from FE11, and they even added in exclusive characters from BS Fire Emblem/Archanaea Saga. You already have very limited deployment slots to work with, and considering Kris stands head and shoulders above everyone else combat-wise, it makes it that much harder for other lesser-used units to shine. It also certainly doesn't help, in my case, that FE3 is my favorite game in the series, and I loved the story as-is. [EDIT: I definitely would have preferred a faithful story remake while taking advantage of the DS's capacity to fill in certain details of the story that they couldn't fit into the original SNES version.] I just don't think adding Kris was necessary. One positive thing, though, is that I actually liked how they showed the relationship between Kris and Katarina in their side story/B-plot. I thought their whole story was pretty cute.

[@FireEmbros]

I think the b story was pretty interesting, even if randomly tacked on. You can opt to not deploy him, but he’s just so far ahead of everyone else that his overcentralization as a unit becomes very apparent

[@projectmessiah]

Speak for yourself, Kris is my favorite player character by far, he's funny and cool

[@armorbearer9702]

I heard that Kris' supports do not affect character endings like modern Fire Emblem games. Does this contribute to Kris' bad rep.

[@FireEmbros]

New mystery’s endings don’t really get influenced by Kris interacting or supporting. He can’t s support anyone and it’s more of exposure really.

[@themastertactician869]

I’ll never forgive female Kris for what she did to phina.

[@mintx1720]

Hear me out: Kris and Shez are the same character.

[@decarabiaumbra560]

I don't know, Shez has never told me where the stairs are. He just teleports there every time I ask for directions.

[@Arkholt2]

I have played the game, twice. I have read the story. I have paid attention to it. And I don't like Kris. I don't think he's a good addition. Besides being annoying in the base conversations, I think he takes away Marth's achievements in FE3, a game that I really like and think has one of the more interesting stories in the series, at least in book 2. And I don't like that. How does he take away from Marth's achievements? Let's look at it. At the end of the game, Marth says, "But, among the people, your deeds [referring to Kris] are being told as things I've done alone... That just will not do. Once we return to the castle, I'll..." and Kris says "If you allow me, sire... I have no need for a name. I don't want stories to be told of me... With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- ***a godlike hero is needed***. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone." What does this mean? The implication is that the things Kris did are so great that they would only be done by a godlike hero, but the hero Kris wants people to think of is Marth. Sure, it's noble of him to give up the accolades, but it tells us that all the amazing things that we're told Marth did in FE3 were things that Kris actually did. Marth was not actually the godlike hero, it was actually Kris, this guy who no one has ever really heard of. You can't say that adding Kris doesn't take away from Marth, because it does. Sure, Marth achieves things on his own in the game apart from Kris, but in FE3 Kris wasn't there, and Marth is shown as achieving all of those things without Kris. I understand that you like Kris. It's fine if you do. But I don't think it's fair to say that just because someone doesn't like him that they "aren't paying attention" or are "remembering wrong."

[@FireEmbros]

I didn’t say that not liking him didn’t mean you weren’t paying attention to the story. I said that the issues that people USUALLY bring up, are from the lack of attention of the player and aren’t really issues that are proveniente from Kris’ addition to the story (lang being an example, lore dumping onto Kris being another). You have every right to not like the addition. Even to believe he somehow stole Marth’s accomplishments which I don’t really see based off of just 1 exchange at the end of the game and the whole game of Marths conquests, but to each their own). I don’t think it’s fair to lay the blame on Kris for things he’s never done, which is the majority of what people do when bashing on Kris in most forums/discussions I’ve seen.

[@AetherKirin]

Huh, that's not quite how I interpreted the ending haha. My interpretation for the "Godlike" hero is that meant more a hero who stands head and shoulders above even every other heroes in the war. By the end of the war, both Marth and Kris emerge as heroes. Marth particularly stands out, being bearer of the Fire Emblem, savior who led an army against the Dark Emperor, and slayer of the Earth Dragon Medeus with the Falchion. However, it's not just Marth. The entire army that fought alongside him is also hailed as heroes, as mentioned in the opening crawl of FE12. Some like Jeorge and Astram already being extremely renowned heroes. To truly set Marth apart, he needs to become the epitome of heroism - a godlike figure. Thus, Kris chooses to relinquish their own achievements to Marth, to give Marth the push to become that godlike figure. Now, what could Kris achievement be? There's only really two things. = 1) Combat ability: Kris is known in-universe to be extremely proficient in combat. And being one of the royal guard to Marth, they would've constantly been fighting next to each other. We can actually see this in the official Cipher art of the two. www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/9v87xi/new_foil_cipher_card_for_marth_joinedart_with/ By choosing to give this up, this would make people think that Marth was a superhuman, mowing down countless squadrons on his own. = 2) Assassin Subplot The entirety of the assassin subplot with Katarina is kinda also exclusively tied to Kris. And based on the dialogues of Katarina, it's implied that it was mostly Kris and 7th Platoon who were foiling the assassin's plan. By giving this achievement up to Marth. Not only did Marth defeat the Dark Emperor, the evil sage Gharnef and the Earth Dragon Medeus. Marth additionally also defeated the corrupted head of an assassin organization. = These would just give the push that's needed for Marth to achieving the status of a "godlike" hero. The ending aside, something I find that not really acknowledged is that Kris actively makes FE12 Marth look way more competent compared to FE3 Marth. As Kris took on the role of exposition bucket instead of Marth. With this change, Marth now dosen't seem as ignorant as in FE3, where he wasn't aware of his own ancestry & history. And also didn't know the political climate/culture/history/etc. of the various countries. And needed someone to explain those to him. Thus, this is something that actively boosts Marth's achievements.

[@hanzou1238]

My main reason for noy liking Kris is because it was the introduction of the avatar character which I have never felt was necessary. There isn't really a reason that the player needs to add themselves to the game so it just adds an extra pointless character who isn't interesting at all. I prefer them now that their appearance can't be changed so they are closer to a normal character that just has the gender the player wants. Kris for me is the worst avatar even though Corrin comes in close second.

[@Keon994]

Luke is the worst character. I purposefully killed him off right away because he was an annoying prick.

[@supportemblem1492]

You are toxic. I find it ridiculous to make a video of a character you don't like.

[@FireEmbros]

You clearly didn’t watch the video, because I do like Kris and this was a video basically explaining that people overhate him for no reason