The Last of Us S01E09 - "Look For the Light" Reaction

[@jacquelinedimattia774]

" They say time heals all wounds". "It wasn't time that did it". Damn, that's almost as emotional as "Baby girl". Great finale for an outstanding season.

[@bawzzzz]

I think she missed that but :D

[@TrentRidley]

The sound design during the hospital rescue scene is pure perfection.

[@BudhagRizzo]

In the game, you could kill the nurses too.

[@vladimirvanvhorno357]

Fun fact, the actress playing Ellie's mom is the voice actress for Ellie in the game. 😁

[@Dark__Thoughts]

*actress

[@eviereacts]

Oh I love that!! The fact that they kind of look alike too is awesome

[@crzykerns]

she did voice and motion capture she was ELLIE!! and the fact bella ramsay looks so much like ashley johnson is insane could be IRL mom haha

[@ThirdLetter77]

And the dude Ellie hatcheted while on the chopping block was Joel from the game.

[@vladimirvanvhorno357]

@@ThirdLetter77 yes, correct. So I shouted real Ellie Killed real Joel when that scene happened. 🤣

[@beckybarnes4651]

Greatest show of 2023 👌

[@burnout_2017]

This should clean up during awards season

[@cullenarthur8879]

​@@burnout_2017I believe it already received multiple Emmy awards.

[@beckybarnes4651]

P.s. Ellie's mum was the voice and motion capture actress in the games.

[@ChorltonOutlaw]

Murder of an unarmed person, Evie response: 15:03

[@blastingweevil2968]

all joel see's is a child a child that needs him to protect her and as a father joel will not let anything happen to ellie he will do whatever he needs to do to protect her and keep her safe even if it includes lying to her.

[@burnout_2017]

I really enjoy your reactions Evie....hope your christmas was perfect and the rest of your holidays are joyous

[@eviereacts]

Thank you! Same goes for you🫶🏻

[@Cthulwho69]

The woman who played Ellie's mom is the voice actress for Ellie in the games :3

[@irrelevant_noob]

voice + mo-cap.

[@Laochri]

And lastly the actress that played Ellie's Mom, is Ashley Johnson; Ellie. Season 2 starts production in spring of 2024 with a projected release in 2025.

[@WThomas66]

Joel is my hero ! !

[@jonathanross149]

Joel loves Ellie and now whoever is left in the Fireflies knows this fact.

[@inescosta2671]

6:13 we couldn't imagine him being this emotionally close to her 5 episodes ago💖🥹

[@Dave3Dguy]

Expecting the Fireflies to ask Ellie's permission is something you would do in modern civilized society but not in this post-apocalypse. Never in a million years would they risk getting a "no" from Ellie when they believe they have this one chance to save mankind. But I believe as you do that Joel's decision is also partly selfish. Yes he wants to protect her, but there is no way he could ever risk losing another daughter figure and go back to being the completely broken person that he was. Loved these reactions! 👍 Happy New Year!

[@diondts]

Ellie giving birth to Ellie... 🤯

[@undbiter65]

They were both robbing Ellie of autonomy. Both for very "understandable" reasons. Great ending.

[@bill.godwin-austen]

Exactly! As Marlene said, Ellie would have probably chosen to go ahead with it, but she never gave her that choice, so both Marlene/Fireflies and Joel were wrong, but at that point there was no going back.

[@ivankawnartist]

@bill.godwin-austen Two wrongs don't make a right. Joel's wrong was the choice that manifested into reality. It's still not right. Especially not objectively right.

[@undbiter65]

@@ivankawnartist no one ever said it was right? 🤨

[@ivankawnartist]

@undbiter65 But are you willing to say it was wrong? There is a strong divide between the two inherently.

[@undbiter65]

@@ivankawnartist yes it was wrong. I said it. The guy above you said. You're fighting imaginary battles in these comments lmao.

[@TerryYelmene]

A truly heartfelt reaction... Thanks, Evie!

[@eldi4blo66]

“It wasn’t time that did it”. Of course he wasn’t going to let her die Great reaction. Happy New Year

[@eviereacts]

Happy New Year!!

[@FredtheFrisian]

It's okay to be torn, there are more who are. Thanks and till the next season; all the best from the Netherlands!

[@SidPhoenix2211]

The ending is essentially the trolley problem. And, in the words of the co-showrunner Craig Mazin, "the thing about the trolley problem is that it's a PROBLEM!" Some audience members really want to poke holes in the scenario in order to justify themselves being right. They're kinda deluding themselves a little. Is the Fireflies' decision murky? Yes. Is it serving a greater purpose? Also yes. Is Joel's decision murky? Yes. Is it serving a greater purpose? No. But he loves this kid and will absolutely not let any harm befall her. Did Ellie deserve a choice/to be informed? Yes. Did anyone give her the choice or inform her? No. Is she actually fit to make this decision? Who's to say, prob not. Would she have sacrificed herself? Yes. The entire situation is intentionally murky & grey & complex. Both sides having justifications for what they did is precisely what makes it so good. It's not meant to be a comfortable decision. And that is good. But if you were to ask Marlene or Joel if they would do what they did again... They'll say yes. And then there's the third side of Ellie & her situation. Everyone chose for her, no one told her. It is a tragedy through and through. Because Joel saved Ellie, but now their relationship is almost certainly affected by the lie Joel tells her.

[@Jedicake]

Really good comment! For me personally, it always comes down to bodily autonomy as the most important thing. The Fireflies not telling her is such an insanely shitty thing to do

[@ivankawnartist]

Of course, there's a major divide in how people interpret Joel's decision. I like to emphasize it was his, not Ellie's. Unpopular opinion, I'm against Joel on this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did it for the story's sake. Part 2 was a wonderful game. In a real-world application, however, it's objectively wrong.

[@SidPhoenix2211]

Yeah, I hear ya@@Jedicake They should've told her. But they didn't. And I get why.

[@SidPhoenix2211]

@@ivankawnartist I am personally on Joel's side here. Just like him, my reasoning is simple: I do not want Ellie to die. Just like him, I think that the Fireflies can get another sacrificial lamb if they want ("find someone else"), just not Ellie lol. I wouldn't've lied to her about it, tho. At least I hope I wouldn't. I side with Joel while fully recognizing the sheer fucked-up-ness of his decision lol. Some people rationalize it too much. When Joel himself keeps it simple: "I saved her", "so, I stopped them." He has no delusions about what he did and why he did it. I respect the hell out of that. But then I think about Ellie and her side of things and man... I feel for her so much. Pretty much the only thing that gives me pause wrt Joel's decision at the end... is the fact that Ellie would've wanted to give her life for a cure. And yeah, also thinking about all the possible deaths that could be prevented... that's a lot to think about, too. Here, in fiction, I side with Joel. In reality... well, no one can say for sure until they are in that situation. I would have DEFINITELY wanted to at least see and talk to Ellie one last time, tho. I would've liked for her to have knowledge of what was gonna happen, and THEN make an informed decision.

[@ivankawnartist]

@SidPhoenix2211 Everything about goodness in general, or the way we live in many aspects, is forsaken to make Joel's decision IRL. The needs of the many no longer outweigh the needs of the few - which basically is a major ethical question in billionaires whilst many suffer in poverty. It defies majority rule as a simple, fair, and effective manner of dictating how decisions are made for the many and not the few. It violates everything religious if you believe in that sort of thing. There is no way one makes the same choice as Joel IRL and doesn't suffer immense repercussions. (No spoilers on that...) And deservedly so. Denying the prosperity of the sons and daughters for every other parent simply isn't justified because one person doesn't want to suffer. At some point, selfishness and selflessness are not two sides of the same coin, and goodness and evil are directly correlated, respectfully.

[@jonathanross149]

90% of reactors notice the babies ears were not covered

[@irrelevant_noob]

Well i mean all the crying sparked then would be quite impossible to miss. :-)

[@inescosta2671]

18:18 omg imagine if they did the alternative ending on the show or as a post-credits scene😂

[@eviereacts]

What’s the alternative ending??

[@inescosta2671]

​@@eviereacts well... it is a funny bts from the first game💛 I recommend you to see it And for more info also plz watch playstation 's interview of the main actors from 2014 (it is promoting the dlc, so maybe search for "left behind) bc they give a good insight on the bts (including on that moment) 😂

[@inescosta2671]

​@@eviereactsit is a funny behind the scenes of the game😂

[@rx7dude2006]

The simple fact that Ellie had no say before they decided to operate.Everything indicated by Ellies ideas as to what they were going to do never led us to believe Ellie thought she was going to die.

[@Fangtorn]

Of course not, there was no reason to believe a cure would cost Ellie her life, but Ellie repeatedly risked her life just for a chance of finding the Fireflies. That scene with Joel after the giraffes makes her priorities clear in my opinion. Joel says that every time they thought they were about to find the Fireflies they've found mortal danger and immense trauma instead and they could just return to the safety of Jackson, but Ellie categorically rejects that. "It has to be for something... there's no halfway with this... we finish what we started" going back to Jackson is secondary to finding the Fireflies, even with the danger, even with the uncertainty of a cure.

[@BouncyMissSally]

At its heart, the ending of The Last of Us is 'the trolley problem': do you let a lot of people die, or deliberately kill one person to save them? And no, you can't just stop the runaway trolley, that's the point.

[@Dark__Thoughts]

We know what she'd answer. For Ellie her cure became her entire identity after the trauma of Riley's death. So Ellie would've absolutely gone through with it, especially after their journey, after Tess, Sam & Henry, what happened to Joel, David... All of those things, even what happened to Sarah, and many more stories you'd read or hear about in the game through notes or visual story telling - they're all there to tell the viewers, and Ellie, just how fucked up the world they are living in is, because of the infected. And Ellie would've been the answer to that. To give humanity another chance at survival and to restore society. It's basically the trolley problem, but multiplied by billions - for all the people still alive, and all the generations that would come after. So for the Fireflies it was their decision for the greater good. Sacrificing Ellie to avoid extinction and restore humanity - the whole reason why their group existed. For Joel it might seem like it was for Ellie, but it was indeed rather for selfish reasons. Because if Ellie would've been asked, and she'd agree to sacrificing herself, then Joel would've still done the same thing. That's because he wouldn't be able to lose another daughter, he would try to kill himself again. His confession about his suicide attempt already put a lot of codependency pressure onto Ellie, and when they were hiking back to Jackson he already kinda turned her into this replacement Sarah figure. Because let's be real, Joel killed a lot of people who all also had their friends and family, and how many parental figures would have to go through absolute hell thanks to how the world is, which could've been prevented by Ellie becoming the cure? And as for Jackson... They kinda live a good life, but for how long? They can scavenge for a while but the majority of what they have will degrade and fall apart. The turbines in the dam will break, and they'll lose all electricity, in a place with harsh winters. They might end up like David's group, starving and in the situation where they'd have to make similarly tough decisions on how to survive just a little bit longer. Humanity has been on a downwards spiral ever since the outbreak. Season 2 & 3 will be heartbreaking indeed. But that's years away from now anyway. If you want to watch game content, I'd go for a proper Part 1 no commentary 100% playthrough. That way you can pause & read all the notes and catch all the optional dialogs between Joel & Ellie too.

[@rx7dude2006]

But not giving her the choice knowing she would die is the problem.We can all assume but it isn't up to anyone but her to decide.

[@Dark__Thoughts]

@@rx7dude2006 I know? What are you trying to say / reply to here?

[@Fangtorn]

@@rx7dude2006 I think it's a bit silly to expect a radical terrorist organization dedicated to the restoration of the old world to care about the informed consent of one child twenty years into an apocalypse. Yes, it would've been nice if the Fireflies had asked Ellie, a lot of violence could've been avoided imo, but to ask you have to be willingly to take no for an answer and the Fireflies aren't. They aren't going to let the next best chance for humanity walk out the door to be torn apart by clickers, murdered by raiders, or live to the ripe old age of 83 while the rest of humanity goes extinct around them. Her consent and certainly her life isn't that important.

[@lilbitx496]

I love all the discourse about the ending while Neil added in Ep. 1+2 how the experts said there’s literally nothing that can be done about the infection. And then, the parallel between Anna and Joel, even tho different situations, lied to save Ellie’s life. (Anna lied about when she cut the cord) Also, I love how deeply unserious ppl are. If the world ended in 2003, what makes you think they’ll find some type of cure of an infection THIS serious with broken 2003 technology?

[@charlesbarnes6912]

U have such beautiful eyes miss Evie😊

[@MetastaticMaladies]

The woman who plays Ellie’s mom, is actually the voice actor for Ellie in the games. It so cool how they had the cast come in to have roles in the show. It’s awesome

[@Berg126]

Joel lied, but indirectly we could say Ellie did the same, because she said, when this is over, I will follow you wherever you want to go, but if she gives her life up, she lied to Joel, so for me, it is obvious in the show, That Ellie didn't think her saving the world would cost her, her life! So she didn't know the cost of the potential cure, because they didn't even know if they could, the doctor thought he could!

[@pricemoore2022]

Awesome reaction of my favorite episode of The Last Of Us!!!!😊😊😊😊

[@ivankawnartist]

Of course, there's a major divide in how people interpret Joel's decision. I like to emphasize it was his, not Ellie's. Unpopular opinion, I'm against Joel on this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did it for the story's sake. Part 2 was a wonderful game. In a real-world application, however, it's objectively wrong.

[@danorm87]

It was a selfish decision from Joel to save Ellie but if you were in his shoes having lost a daughter and then finding another tell me you wouldnt do the same thing as i would.

[@ivankawnartist]

@danorm87 Easy. I wouldn't do the same thing as you would. Some people are less selfish than others, and I don't expect the latter to understand. The fact that there is an objective right and wrong, good or evil if you will, decision. One person's pain does not outweigh that of millions of others. It you're religious, for example, WWJD? That one seems to provide a clear lack of moral consistency for those of the church who also side with Joel.

[@stephenknox2346]

That's an overly simplistic view of morality. You manage to nail both self-righteousness and condescension in a fairly brief statement. Kudos.

[@ivankawnartist]

@stephenknox2346 That's a clever retort. It offered no true form of discord outside of self-righteousness, and condescention pertinent to your clear opinion not being in agreement is either directly relating to projection or a case of being defensive. Either way, there was no pejorative connotation intended by my analysis through countless observations and/or engagements in which people always mention the same half-formulated arguments to rationalize their siding with the objectively wrong course of action. If you want to offer the retort that it's an overly simplistic view of morality, you are required to support that claim through legitimate discord and not simply offer ad hominem rhetoric as if your projection driven accusations of self-righteousness and condescention were anything more than a smear campaign due to lack of supporting evidence to your claim. Look, there's something true about the old adage: Play your role. If you have never even driven a car at 180+ mph, it's likely you would not take it upon yourself to plant yourself behind the wheel at the start of a Nascar race where there will be many other drivers in close proximity to you who have had experience driving 180+ mph. The end result is that you're likely going to cause some accidents and make a mess out of an event you had no justified role in to begin with. For some people, that's public discord. Now, THAT is being condescending. Or is it simply being honest? Maybe a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. Sorry if my words of wisdom come across as self-righteous. I'll say this with as little pejorative connotation as I can... when an intellectually advanced individual attempts to speak at the lower intelligence level of another, it's not self-righteous. I owed you no sort of response in which I tried to relate to you. I could have been an arrogant prick and simply mocked you for not seeing it as it should be, but I took the time to assess the situation appropriately. It's honestly disappointing that you attempted to vilify me. Effectively, all one does when they do such a thing is make a victim out of themselves. Self-made victimization is an epidemic these days. Let's not resort to such pettiness, please?

[@ivankawnartist]

@stephenknox2346 Someone literally just said to me in another comment that their kids mattered more than anyone else's. Talk about self-righteous and condescending, no? Where does your moral consistency lie within your accusations? Are you honest when you allegedly witness the aforementioned qualities, or is it based upon agenda? If it's honest, you must acknowledge how they qualify for those aforementioned qualities.

[@inescosta2671]

By the way, the actress who played anna on this episode (ellie's mother),ashley, she played ellie in both games😁 It is mind blowing....ellie giving birth to ellie🤯 And from what i have seen on an interview, what she said to ellie wasn't scripted, she just felt it bc she has been playing this character for the past 10 years and ellie is sssooo much based off her, (liking for space, the fact that she pushes ppl when she's angry😂, wven facial features (in the games) like the bone structures and blue eyes (but i won't say why naughty dog did that hehe) that she is kind of her daughter❤ I feel like this episode wraps up SSSOOO weeellll bc (and you'll see that im s02) in tlou ypu are always a saviour in somebody's story and evil in someone else's story and, whether you think what he did was right or wrong, you must always have that in mind and comprehend that, in one way, he's fighting for his life too, bc he doesn't feel like he can live without her🥲

[@eviereacts]

I can’t wait for season 2!!

[@crzykerns]

Joel Wick Season 2 planned for 2025 she cut the cord with the same knife she killed the infected with lol that was a real girraffe from the calgary zoo the budget per episode was crazy think it was around 10mil per episode its one most exspensive tv shows and i think its canada best tv show it was basically all filmed there

[@Breggle]

You're right, it was undoubtedly selfish, but as you pointed out, he also had his reason. I mean, what a dilemma for any parent in that situation, but for a man who suffered nightly for 2 decades reliving the night he "failed" to save his daughter, here was his chance at redemption, no matter the consequences. He carried her just as he carried his daughter... that's a tortured father on a very different kind of mission, and given all he been through perhaps the world and what he had seen humanity devolve to, perhaps the world wasn't worth saving anyway. But I'm sure he wasn't really weighing one vs the other. His objective to him was crystal clear, and no one could stand in the way. Great story, great game, great series, and great reaction! And more to come!

[@Beckidoglover]

Alternate ending, they go through with and it doesn't work because duh, and the only immune person is gone so they can't study her or do any tests like they should have in the first place. Then Joel takes out all the terrorists and their incompetent med school dropout, and we're all sad anyway.

[@fmvchanel670]

Joel's be like: The world took everything from me, now i took everything from the world😏. Yes what Joel did is wrong and selfish but i can't blame him either i get it where he's coming from, i mean imagine for the last 20 year he still suffer from the wound of losing his daughter, it's haunted him every night he have nightmares, but Ellie came to his life and finally heal that wound, but she's about to taken from him (again)

[@sawyer33]

Love your reactions, you know that. Just wondering if Breaking Bad will be next now that you’ve finished The Last of Us? 🙏🏻 PS-When I saw you crying from “I’ll follow you wherever you go,” I really expected you to lose it from “it wasn’t time that did it.”

[@eviereacts]

Yes Breaking Bad will come to KZbin in January! :)

[@sawyer33]

@@eviereacts Thank you, Evie. Can’t wait for those BB reactions. I hope that you, your husband and your cute little baby boy have the happiest of new years.

[@urbanform7714]

@@eviereacts Thanks Evie for this wonderful reaction. And quite excited for you to react to BB. Happy new year.

[@rx7dude2006]

The thing is also Joel telling Ellie how much he meant to her would really sway Ellies decision as well.The cure was never a shure thing in the first place, it was a longshot to say the least.

[@Fangtorn]

I think that's a good point, Ellie knowing how much she mattered to Joel would strongly influence her decision, but from the Fireflies' perspective and I believe hers any chance of a cure is worth her life, even a minuscule chance. The amount of people she cared about who died to get her to that hospital and the amount of people who could potentially be saved... I have a hard time believing she would ever say no to the operation even for Joel.

[@bawzzzz]

Nice reaction! Hey fyi you have 2 different TLOU playlists on your channels and all videos are not in them. I think it's a mistake. Cheers.

[@therealjoemonroe]

I can respect people who would choose to sacrifice one person to save the world. But as a father of two...I'll let the world burn before I would give up one of my kids. I'm Team Joel all the way.

[@ivankawnartist]

Because all the fathers losing their children to the outbreak is objectively less valuable than you having to lose yours alone. Makes sense

[@therealjoemonroe]

@@ivankawnartist That's correct. Because my kids lives mean more to me than yours or anyone else's.

[@ivankawnartist]

@@therealjoemonroe That's self-righteous and condescending. You're an animal. Your kids could grow up to be the next Hitler whilst someone else's kid could grow up to be the next Newton. You're emotionally volatile, just like Joel. Not the type of person anyone would want making important decisions for humanity.

[@nomis]

I think ... Ellie decided to just accept Joel's lies based on faith and loyalty. She knows it's probably not the entire truth. But Joel is the person she is choosing to be with.

[@inescosta2671]

Eu adorei ver as tuas reações aos episódios! Tu definitivamente és perspicaz😊 Eu recomendo-te vivamente a ver a história dos jogos e ver as performance captures dos jogos (está tudo no youtube) e ver também o que cada ator que fez destas duas incríveis personagens, seja dos jogos ou da série, tem a dizer sobre estas pois eu creio que irás aprender ou aperceber-te de coisas que te irão fazer sentir mais conectadas a eles❤ Ah! Só mais uma coisa: existem bandas desenhadas (cartoons) de tlou e podes ver no youtube leituras delas! Falam sobre a ellie na escola da fedra e como ela conheceu a riley🥰

[@ruairiwhite6303]

I've never enjoyed a watch along as much as I've enjoyed you watching The Last of Us, Evie. A brilliant show, and watching you love it as much as I did, means a lot!

[@eviereacts]

Thank you!! I loved it☺️

[@MrPicklerwoof]

I don't think there's that much of a debate with Joel deciding to rescue Ellie. The fireflies admitted they were about to murder her without any consent - and Ellie made it clear earlier she wanted a future with him afterwards. They're basically father and daughter by this point. There was only really one thing Joel could do; attempt to prevent her murder. Lying ends badly sooner or later, but I always interpreted it as Joel simply wanting her to have a fresh start, without all the pressure of being the only immune person. Also, it's heavily implied Joel fears Ellie may be going down a dark path (hence the suicide speech earlier) and probably doesn't want to exacerbate it. I don't actually know if all of this is selfishness on Joel's part or not. He loves Ellie. I guess if it is selfishness, then all of us who love people are selfish to some extent. We're all human.

[@IAMM4C]

My opinion is that you don't ask a traumatized 14 year old what they want to do, especially since the the fireflies plan seemed less like a definite cure and more like a guess. You could tell from Ellie's first scene she is hurt and confused about what she had to do to survive the cannibal-pedophile-cultists. Give this child a chance recover and grow up a bit before letting her volunteer to have her brain taken out. Any people that wouldn't allow that don't deserve to survive, let the next species take over after the humans have gone and maybe they can do better.

[@ivankawnartist]

Two wrongs don't make a right. No one gave her a choice, but we, as the audience, know her choice. Don't lie. She would do it.

[@IAMM4C]

I'm not lying, yes at this time she probably would, but to restate I don't believe you should give/force a traumatized 14 year old the choice at that time. Give her time to recover, give her time to grow up a bit more, give her all the information and then give her the choice. Why does it have to be so soon? @@ivankawnartist

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist the fact that "she would do it" doesn't make it right either. Consent should be *_freely_* given in a clear state of mind... and she wasn't in one.

[@ivankawnartist]

@@irrelevant_noob Lots of people like to blame the fireflies for making a choice for her, that goes both ways. Two wrongs don't make a right. Joel still isn't justified in making it his choice if we're speaking upon choice as a matter of concern.

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist but i just said that "[what she would have done] doesn't make it right either" and yet you still copy+paste your response here as well despite it not fitting. -.-

[@LilBrujoFH18]

The last of us 2 makes me hate Ellie A fantastic story.

[@ivankawnartist]

Ellie is proportionately a product of Joel's actions. I didn't like Joel at the end of the first game, so it doesn't surprise me that someone may resent Ellie during the second game, as she takes on his same fears and insecurities. The revelation Ellie comes to is the revelation Joel needed to reach. Maybe there's a little subtext there regarding how elder individuals in positions of power are less capable of adapting and doing what is not only right and better... but what needs to be done in comparison to those who follow after them.

[@LilBrujoFH18]

@@ivankawnartist I’m more of an Abby fan. I felt like Ellie was a complaining teenager in the second game. So annoying

[@ivankawnartist]

@LilBrujoFH18 She's definitely more rage filled throughout, whereas Abby had already gotten rid of her rage and vengeance. There is a lot to the credit Abby's character, actually. Ellie was seeing red. She had been traumatized. Sadly, it wasn't the first time Joel had traumatized her. I still like Ellie because she did the right thing in the end. She finally was able to get rid of her rage and vengeance and be a better person.

[@urbanform7714]

Marlene's plan was flawed to begin with. Whats the point of a 'cure' after 20 years of a pandemic that wiped out almost the entire population. A working vaccine would take months if not years to make in a normal setting and why would any scientist kill the only immune person on the planet without even getting the desired results first. Besides, even if they were successful in making a vaccine its not that it would cure a person from the infection it will only work on a non infected person giving them immunity from a possible infection. This is going by how Ellie reacted to the infection. The billions of infected people will still be around to kill you and the vaccine will not make any difference. And not to mention the whole logistics of it. Making the vaccine at that large scale in those conditions when they dont even have a decent running lab. The best thing for the survivors in this situation would be to simply live and adapt with the reality they face instead of going around abducting and killing children for a possible 'cure'. Also Joel didnt have to lie to Ellie. He could have told her the truth about how Marlene's plan was flawed and they were just winging it without much evidence and the situation got heated up and went out of hand. And she didnt give much of choice. Which is true Marlene would have killed him. Ellie would have been upset but it would have sounded reasonable enough for her to forgive and move on especially after the way they had bonded.

[@ivankawnartist]

The point is to return to a normal, not life-threatening, non-savage way of life. I can't understand why you would ask such a question.

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist o.O You're saying that as if such a return would be easy, let alone *_possible_* ... after 20 years of carnage. There was no "normal" anymore, the world needed to "live and adapt with the reality" around, as the OP said.

[@urbanform7714]

​@@ivankawnartist As @irrelevant_noob said the present state of the world as depicted in the show is the new normal especially for people in their 20s and younger. So no, the vaccine doesnt change what happened twenty+ years ago. Either you didnt read my post completely or conveniently ignored the points I have already made. About the billions of infected people and the mutated cordyceps that are still there to "rip you apart" as the show kept emphasizing on. Merely a vaccine that gives you immunity does not change that. Not to mention the state of the entire world which is nothing short of an apocalyptic nightmare after all the bombing and destruction. So unless Marlene and her gang discover a time machine there is no going back to 'normal'. Besides there are groups of people shown to be living 'normally' who have like I said adapted and accepted the situation. Like Tommy & Maria's settlement, the old couple Ellie and Joel met and also Bill & Frank. Simply reminiscing of the past for some old folks and having grandiose plans to save the world will not change the current status quo.

[@ivankawnartist]

@@urbanform7714 Rome wasn't built in a day. That's about all that need said here.

[@ivankawnartist]

@irrelevant_noob People becoming feral and losing civility is a selling point to you? I'm certainly confused about that.

[@thactotum]

thank you! nobody else seems to get the connection of his 'being the guy who shot and missed' and her state of mind would predispose her to sacrifice herself for something she's not responsible for, and a year before nobody even knew was possible. if she's really a possible vaccine, she'll still be a vaccine in 30 years, and if immunity comes from her mother, maybe Ellie could have immune kids. Fireflies should just go back to doing what they're plans were before they found an immune person. Personally, we've seen the world, the infected are not even the majority of the monsters out there, I'm not sure immunity would save the world, and I'm not sure the world deserves to be saved by sacrificing one child who would sacrifice themself to save the world.

[@meghanmonroe]

THIS! Not to mention, when they say they're going to cure the world, they're really not being very forthcoming or honest. The world is way bigger than mainland North America (which Marlene, herself, admitted she barely made it across with her life, and I have no doubt that her journey was not solely plagued by infected). What about the rest of the world that can't be reached without sea or air travel? Do they even know how people are faring around the world? But yeah, let's just sacrifice a child for no good reason.

[@ivankawnartist]

Objectively wrong

[@beckybarnes4651]

P.p.s something that also often gets overlooked, is that there was no guarantee a vaccine could have been produced even if the surgery had gone ahead.

[@ivankawnartist]

Selfish not to try. Ellie would have wanted to try, and we all know this.

[@beckybarnes4651]

@@ivankawnartist that would be true if it was practically a certainty, but the explanation regarding a cure is ambiguous at best.

[@ivankawnartist]

@beckybarnes4651 I would be hard-pressed to believe anyone who says Ellie would not want to give it a shot, even with only hope. She was determined to help people. Some people care more about others than the next person. I get that. So I don't expect everyone to make the right decision. It still does not change the objectively correct choice.

[@cullenarthur8879]

That's kinda missing the point (or the dilemma) that the creators of the game and show were trying to make. I have listened to the podcast after each episode, and Neil Druckman and Craig Mazin said that it should be assumed that the procedure and cure would probably have worked. That's what makes it such a difficult situation. It puts Joel in the situation of having to choose between the girl he has come to love as a daughter or a chance to save humanity. It's really missing the point to speculate whether or not the procedure or cure would work, or if they would actually be able to distribute the cure.

[@ivankawnartist]

@cullenarthur8879 You're absolutely right. That approach is just people trying to rationalize the selfish action of Joel. I guess the kids call it copium?

[@ignisraendl3721]

imo Joel wasn't being selfish when he saved Ellie, he was being her parent. something Marlene should have fought for but didn't. obviously they both took away Ellie's autonomy, but as a child there are some decisions that are beyond their responsibility. imo this is Joel's slim thread of morality over Marlene. is the killing spree justified? no. but neither is sacrificing the life of a child on a chance of saving what was left of the human race. sacrificing your humanity to save humanity is a bargain i would not make. other than that, great reaction, Evie;)

[@ivankawnartist]

Naw, Joel was still selfish by thinking his psuedo-daughter was of more importance than millions of other parents and their actual children. You wouldn't make that decision because you're weak. Nuff said.

[@ignisraendl3721]

@@ivankawnartist very big of you to sacrifice a single childs life on a chance to save others... whether humanity lives or dies is not on the life of a single child. this is the moral dilemma Joel saw and acted accordingly. was it selfish? no, not in my opinion. Marlene knew how Ellie came to be immune. Why didn't she get pregnant and let an Infected bite her as she was giving birth, then let the doctor sacrifice that baby??

[@ivankawnartist]

@ignisraendl3721 If the individual decided to do so with their life, who are you to make that choice for them? It's about choice for a lot of people. So, hypothetically (yet we all know what choice Ellie would make, it's hardly hypothetical). Ellie makes the choice we all know she would, what then? Joel still kills everyone selfishly and separates Ellie from him entirely? Lbvh. Also, you mention other opportunities with other women potentially getting but while pregnant. Let's discuss this. Marlene may not have been fertile. Never disclosed. I giure if you want to go off of such whims that I may as well, ma'am.

[@ignisraendl3721]

@@ivankawnartist it's a moral question as old as humanity. you don't trade a life for lives. it's why Captain America wouldn't let Vision sacrifice himself to stop Thanos, and in that story half the living universe was at stake. also you have decided a cure derived from this child's sacrifice is completely possible. what was the opinion of that Indonesian professor who had studied cordyceps all her life again??

[@ivankawnartist]

@ignisraendl3721 @beckybarnes4651 The possibility of a cure doesn't matter to the story. Everyone uses the cure as a scapegoat for their personal needs, goals, and emotions. There is objective value in doing the right thing for humanity as a collective versus what suits an individual interest from person to person. The Indonesian professor put the needs of the many over the needs of the few. Facts. She said bomb this city, so it doesn't harm the rest of the world. You have successfully contradicted yourself by referencing her, specifically.

[@Sd-cl6of]

He had no choice. They gave him none.

[@ivankawnartist]

It wasn't his choice to make. That's moot. If Ellie had been given a choice, we all know what she would have done. So did Joel. Sure, nobody gave her the choice you could argue, but if everyone had, Joel would have to suck it up. Two wrongs don't make a right, as many suggest by suggesting his actions were justified.

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist he MADE it his choice, even if it "wasn't his" in theory. And Ellie not being given one is a small mercy, she didn't have to face the responsibility.

[@ivankawnartist]

@irrelevant_noob Lots of people like to blame the fireflies for making a choice for her, that goes both ways. Two wrongs don't make a right. Joel still isn't justified in making it his choice if we're speaking upon choice as a matter of concern. As far as responsibility goes, we know she wanted the responsibility. It would be blatant lying to say otherwise.

[@Sd-cl6of]

@@ivankawnartist Well, he had to make the choice he thought best for her. Not up to me. It's up to them. I can see both sides. But i'm not in that situation.

[@ivankawnartist]

@Sd-cl6of If you've played part 2, it's pretty clear how Ellie feels about the issue.

[@ThirdLetter77]

Hey Evie! You probably won’t read this, but I think there’s some things you missed, Joel saved her for selfish reasons yes, but he just might have saved the world. If you listen to Marlene, she talks about what the doctor thinks, and not what the doctor knows, she very clearly says he thinks this is why, and he thinks he can do this, and he thinks this is what will happen, well once he kills her, if he’s wrong the world truly is screwed and the cure is lost forever, the fireflies and their associates were acting with haste out of fear, because any reasonable professionals would’ve tried 50 different things in 50 different ways before coming to the conclusion of killing her! simply put she was in the wrong hands and now there’s hope of her being put in the right hands. he might’ve been the only surgeon the fireflies knew, but if the world was thrust into an apocalypse, doctors would’ve been among the most protected of all of us, it’s reasonable to assume that there are other doctors out there who are capable and willing to figure out the cure the right way. And Marlene should’ve had the balls to kill Joel outright because she did, in fact, sentence him to death, casting him out into the world with none of his supplies or weapons with all the zombies and all the enemies of Joel out there, Ellie is his baby! and he wasn’t about to lose another one she should’ve known better.

[@brucethompson7364]

No doctor would kill the one person who is immune without first doing blood tests and exhausting all other possibilities before resorting to such a procedure.

[@ivankawnartist]

Unless it was absolutely necessary. That was a clearly established detail in the context of all of this. Just because you want to claim that or even believe that on your own does not eliminate the circumstances already set which state otherwise. In the video game, it is definitely said that they did blood tests. Considering that, the entire foundation is moot.

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist it wasn't *_immediately_* necessary tho...

[@ivankawnartist]

@irrelevant_noob Would you like them to wait a couple of years? Tomato tomato.

[@irrelevant_noob]

@@ivankawnartist it's not a tomato though, it'd be almost a whole HALF of Ellie's conscious life so far... 👀

[@ThirdLetter77]

Honestly, I feel like Ellie’s life should be viewed as the single most valuable life on the planet, and if after excessively redundant experimentation, failed to provide a viable cure without killing her, then the only logical course of action beyond that would be to anoint her as humanities Eve part two.

[@inescosta2671]

Even though i see how selfish joel was, I also think making a vaccine wouldn't work out, bc hear me out: The US is divided in many political militar groups and the ppl who are not in them tend to become savages. The fireflies, although they have a good mission, in praticality they are ad bad as fedra and other groups bc of the way they impose their ideals through aggression. The streets are these groups' battle fields unfortunately and this is heavily implied in the games. Therefore, in the way that i see it, the fireflies would only distribute the vaccine towards the amount of the population that belong to their group, just like any other group would, making the thing of "trying to protect the population" become pointless.

[@Fangtorn]

I strongly disagree. Without a cure mankind in this world is on a downward spiral to extinction. With a cure we're back to the pre-industrial agrarian societies mankind endured for most of human history. Even if the Fireflies only shared the cure among themselves and their die hard supporters (a decision that would be counter to their ideals and counter-productive to their goal) a) even a few thousand or hundred immune people would drastically improve mankind's odds of long term survival, and b) there would be a lot more die hard Firefly supporters. Even if we accept the premise that the Fireflies are just as bad as Fedra a cure offers humanity a future and a chance to rebuild that Fedra doesn't even attempt.

[@whyit6158]

I think Joel was completely justified up until that moment in the garage. Marlene was right there, it wasnt up to either of them, they should have waited for Ellie to wake up and give her ALL the facts on the surgery and let her decide. He couldn't do it. I think deep down he knew she would be willing to do it even though it wasnt a guarenteed cure and couldn't let go. It's completely understandable, but he still made the objectively wrong choice in that particular moment. but I dont know if I couldve made a different choice in his shoes tbh, man has been through so much.

[@ivankawnartist]

Objectively wrong.

[@danieldaulie8980]

Last MCU upload was a month ago. I think you're reacting to too many stuff.

[@danieldaulie8980]

Last MCU upload was a month ago. I think you're reacting to too many stuff.